Just what the heck were they thinking (Gundam)?

[Swindle1984]

Wasn't Char's plan in CCA not to exterminate all life on Earth, but to force people to evacuate Earth and live in the colonies, thus "elevating" them to spacenoids and promoting the "evolution" of the human race? He wasn't being genocidal like Hitler, he was just being a dick who wanted to force the earthnoids to join the spacenoids, whether they wanted to or not.

[Zinegata]

Correct. Char's stated goal is to force people off the planet so evolve into Newtypes or somesuch. He doesn't say outright that he plans to kill them all.

The problem is that most people simply can't leave the planet. Note that one of the major sub-plots in the movie is Bright worrying about his wife and child who were still trapped on Earth, and who are unable to flee due to lack of money/available shuttles/whatever.

And if you think about it really hard, it's actually going to be impossible to evacuate billions of people before the Earth freezes over. Char doesn't have a fleet of evacuation shuttles that will magically appear and rescue everyone. And travel from Earth to space isn't exactly easy. At this point most people still use conventional heavy lift rockets like HLVs to get people into space.

In fact, the only shuttle that we see fleeing Earth carries mainly rich people (like that brat Quess). So what will likely happen is that a few people get off the Earth (mainly the rich), and everyone else freezes to death.

(Moreover, we haven't even gotten to the issue of living space in the colonies. I don't think they can exactly fit another 5 billion or so people even if a way was found to get everyone off Earth)

In essence, what Char is saying is just an euphemism for attempted genocide. But it's still genocide all the same.

[SAMAS]

Correct. Char's stated goal is to force people off the planet so evolve into Newtypes or somesuch. He doesn't say outright that he plans to kill them all.

The problem is that most people simply can't leave the planet. Note that one of the major sub-plots in the movie is Bright worrying about his wife and child who were still trapped on Earth, and who are unable to flee due to lack of money/available shuttles/whatever.

And if you think about it really hard, it's actually going to be impossible to evacuate billions of people before the Earth freezes over. Char doesn't have a fleet of evacuation shuttles that will magically appear and rescue everyone. And travel from Earth to space isn't exactly easy. At this point most people still use conventional heavy lift rockets like HLVs to get people into space.

In fact, the only shuttle that we see fleeing Earth carries mainly rich people (like that brat Quess). So what will likely happen is that a few people get off the Earth (mainly the rich), and everyone else freezes to death.

They can always go back for the people left behind, you know.

(Moreover, we haven't even gotten to the issue of living space in the colonies. I don't think they can exactly fit another 5 billion or so people even if a way was found to get everyone off Earth)

In essence, what Char is saying is just an euphemism for attempted genocide. But it's still genocide all the same.

Honestly, I think Char was looking more for the good of mankind as a whole than actually not killing anybody. As long as Humanity had no choice but to live in space, I don't think he cared about the statistics, as Stalin would put it.

[Zinegata]

Just pump the cylinder full of gas from the CO2 scrubbers (or something similar where all the air gets processed), wait until the all the colonists die, and then vent.

There are no CO2 scrubbers. Well, technically, the trees and such could be called one, but there's no single point. An O'Neill cylinder is a little piece of Earth.

Venting out the gas would be enormously difficult too. You can just move the air somewhere - there's billions of tons of it. It would take years to leak out through a mobile suit sized hole! I figure the gas lingers for a while, then breaks down in sunlight over many months, meaning it kills, then becomes usable with light protective gear (this is the state the one visited in Zeta would be in), and eventually, normally livable again.

As a side note, it is a bit incredible that gas can work to depopulate a colony, considering their size. At least Zeta, when we saw the tanks, showed it as being multiple enormous constructs. It takes a huge amount of gas to do the job - it is not a trivial whim to pull it off.

Actually, if I recall correctly all they needed was one canister to kill off the whole population of Bunch 21 (Zeta Episode 41). And it's the same type of G3 gas that Zeon used.

[Zinegata]

They can always go back for the people left behind, you know.

Using what?

Again there are no fleets of evacuation shuttle standing by. We see first hand that the family of a pretty famous (and important) Earth Federation officer can't even get off the Earth. Bright's family was *still* on Earth by the time the CCA credits roll (and Axis would have already hit by that point if it wasn't stopped)

More to the point, with the exception of Pegasus and Arghama class ships - UC transports don't really freely travel between Earth and space. Most stuff like HLVs and shuttles need a ton of fuel or a heavy lift rocket to get off the Earth. So, at best, while the planet is freezing over and weather has gone nuts, you need to evacuate everyone to places where there are tons of rockets or a mass driver (Baikonour, Gibraltar), keep launching them, and hope the fuel doesn't run out or the mass driver doesn't fall apart.

That's simply not gonna happen.

Honestly, I think Char was looking more for the good of mankind as a whole than actually not killing anybody. As long as Humanity had no choice but to live in space, I don't think he cared about the statistics, as Stalin would put it.

Did you miss all of the people in Lhasa Tibet who were blown away? This isn't implied. They do actually show innocent people being blown away.

Again, Char's rhetoric insists that he's not killing anyone. But the fact of it is that he's committing genocide.

[Zinegata]

Most of the inhabitants of Side 3 come from France and Germany, their infantry equipment are reminiscent of Whermacht uniforms, a large number of mobile weapons named have Germanic names or are phrases in German, a 'Master Race' ideology used to justify attacking neutral nations.

So....according to their view of Germany and France, they are both poised to recreate genocidal mania at the drop of a hat. Nice.

I've been searching the web a bit since this post for evidence to substantiate or to refute this claim, and I've found myself dropping into the bad old habit of getting mired in Gundam minutae again

Anyway, there is a translation of EB1 here:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ble01.html

It's complete except for the timeline (now obsolete), and some mecha related stuff. As I suspected, it contains no mention of UC colonial ethnicities.

However...

I also went through the MS Ace Pilot profiles from MSV. And it turns out that some pilots DO mention real-world Earth ethnicities. See link here:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/msv2.html

So, basic summary of ethnicities per Side is...

Side 3: Johnny Ridden is a bonafide Side 3 resident. His ancestors were from Australia, but of American heritage. However, it's also noted that American heritage people are very rare in Side 3. Two other pilots are mentioned as specifically being born in Side 3: Shin Matsunaga (being noted as someone of "Oriental" heritage), and Gerald Sakai (obviously Japanese also).

Side 4: Ace pilot Roy Greenwood was originally from Side 4. And he's of German descent.

Now, this is still pretty thin data to base anything on. However, we prolly conclude that:

1) Few people from America moved to Side 3 (explicitly stated, and thus likely cannot be contested).

2) A large number of Side 3 residents actually came from the East Asia/Australia region (two Japanese and 1 Australian ace pilot).

3) The only guy of explicitly German heritage that we know of actually came from Side 4, not Side 3.

My personal conclusion? Side 3 isn't full of Space Nazi Germans. It's full of Space Nazi Japanese.

[Kuja]

And people actually like the principality?

Jesus Christ.

People like the Principality for the same reason that people like the Empire: sharp outfits, snazzy toys, and cool bad guys.

It didn't hurt that Gundam portrayed the Federation as a bunch of insufferable twats, so even if the Zeon were pretty much a pack of murderous psychopaths there was still that one tiny glimmer of understanding for their motivations.

[SAMAS]

They can always go back for the people left behind, you know.

Using what?

Again there are no fleets of evacuation shuttle standing by. We see first hand that the family of a pretty famous (and important) Earth Federation officer can't even get off the Earth. Bright's family was *still* on Earth by the time the CCA credits roll (and Axis would have already hit by that point if it wasn't stopped)

More to the point, with the exception of Pegasus and Arghama class ships - UC transports don't really freely travel between Earth and space. Most stuff like HLVs and shuttles need a ton of fuel or a heavy lift rocket to get off the Earth. So, at best, while the planet is freezing over and weather has gone nuts, you need to evacuate everyone to places where there are tons of rockets or a mass driver (Baikonour, Gibraltar), keep launching them, and hope the fuel doesn't run out or the mass driver doesn't fall apart.

That's simply not gonna happen.

I never said they were gonna get everybody out.

Honestly, I think Char was looking more for the good of mankind as a whole than actually not killing anybody. As long as Humanity had no choice but to live in space, I don't think he cared about the statistics, as Stalin would put it.

Did you miss all of the people in Lhasa Tibet who were blown away? This isn't implied. They do actually show innocent people being blown away.

Again, Char's rhetoric insists that he's not killing anyone. But the fact of it is that he's committing genocide.

That's what I was saying. Char at that point was perfectly willing to commit genocide for the good of those left. What's a few million for the sake of billions, to put a possible rationalization on it.

And people actually like the principality?

Jesus Christ.

People like the Principality for the same reason that people like the Empire: sharp outfits, snazzy toys, and cool bad guys.

It didn't hurt that Gundam portrayed the Federation as a bunch of insufferable twats, so even if the Zeon were pretty much a pack of murderous psychopaths there was still that one tiny glimmer of understanding for their motivations.

Furthermore, they're insufferable twats who get away with it for pretty much the entire UC timeline, pretty much because the present alternative is so much worse.

SEED and Destiny got at least one thing right: The guys who helped justify the Bad Guys' existence got theirs.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Oh hey, turns out I was wrong. No biggie.

[Zinegata]

It didn't hurt that Gundam portrayed the Federation as a bunch of insufferable twats, so even if the Zeon were pretty much a pack of murderous psychopaths there was still that one tiny glimmer of understanding for their motivations.

Furthermore, they're insufferable twats who get away with it for pretty much the entire UC timeline, pretty much because the present alternative is so much worse.

SEED and Destiny got at least one thing right: The guys who helped justify the Bad Guys' existence got theirs.

Congratulations. You just called the side that's analogous to the Allied Powers insufferable twats .

The problem with the UC timeline really, is that its creators have increasingly tried to make Zeon = WW2 Japan, and Federation = WW2 Allied Powers. The original series was fine because it really paints Zeon as the bad guys (despite occasional Federation incompetence). Unfortunately, in later series (but especially starting with 0083), the writers have chosen to start glossing over the worst atrocities of Zeon (i.e. The One Week War) in favor of presenting them as the good guys - much like how Japan now glosses over stuff like the Rape of Nanking and claim the US just nuked them for no good reason.

Gundam Unicorn pretty much ups the revisionist history to such ridiculous levels, that the entire point of the series is to prove Zeon were the good guys along. Here is its ending of the novel (spoiler-tagged):
Spoiler

Basically, when the Earth Federation was first founded, they wrote down a constitution known as the "UC Charter". Included in the charter is a provision that states that if Newtypes ever showed up, then the Federation should grant the colonies independence. This charter was "lost" (or deliberately hidden) for over 90 years. The last remaining Zabi family member locates this charter, and then broadcasts its content to the entire Earth Sphere, thereby clearing Zeon's "crimes".

Now, this "charter" violates canon like five different ways, and it violates common freaking sense like twenty different ways. But hey, Japan = Zeon. Zeon is innocent like how Japan is innocent of its WW2 crimes!

SEED is honestly just as bad, except that the Japan expy isn't ZAFT, but Orb.

[Zinegata]

Double Post. Very sorry.

[Swindle1984]

And people actually like the principality?

Jesus Christ.

People like the Principality for the same reason that people like the Empire: sharp outfits, snazzy toys, and cool bad guys.

It didn't hurt that Gundam portrayed the Federation as a bunch of insufferable twats, so even if the Zeon were pretty much a pack of murderous psychopaths there was still that one tiny glimmer of understanding for their motivations.

Sort of like people who would cheer for the Empire if it meant the Gungans and Ewoks were exterminated.

[lord Martiya]

The problem with the UC timeline really, is that its creators have increasingly tried to make Zeon = WW2 Japan, and Federation = WW2 Allied Powers. The original series was fine because it really paints Zeon as the bad guys (despite occasional Federation incompetence). Unfortunately, in later series (but especially starting with 0083), the writers have chosen to start glossing over the worst atrocities of Zeon (i.e. The One Week War) in favor of presenting them as the good guys - much like how Japan now glosses over stuff like the Rape of Nanking and claim the US just nuked them for no good reason.

Thankfully some of the recent production showed again Zeon crimes. IGLOO may have misrepresented Loum, but at least they showed part of Operation British (with the Zeonian protagonist being horrified).
And the manga Origins... Well, apart showing again what was shown of Zeon crimes in the original series (M'qube nuke in violation of the Antartic Treaty, the repeated violation of Side 6 neutrality and endangerment of its population and the crater that was a city before Operation British), the flashback sequence showed the atrocities from the One Week War: first we get some hint about Side 2's fate (all communications interrupted), then we are shown the destruction of Side 2 and ALL PARTS OF OPERATION BRITISH (the gassing of the colony, its transformation in a projectile, its launch, Tianem failed attempt at destroying it before it's too late. On top of that, before Loum (and we are shown how Loum was destroyed in the crossfire) we have Dozle reminding the other Zeon generals that they had committed a war crime and defeat in the upcoming battle would mean hanging.

Gundam Unicorn pretty much ups the revisionist history to such ridiculous levels, that the entire point of the series is to prove Zeon were the good guys along. Here is its ending of the novel (spoiler-tagged):
Spoiler

Basically, when the Earth Federation was first founded, they wrote down a constitution known as the "UC Charter". Included in the charter is a provision that states that if Newtypes ever showed up, then the Federation should grant the colonies independence. This charter was "lost" (or deliberately hidden) for over 90 years. The last remaining Zabi family member locates this charter, and then broadcasts its content to the entire Earth Sphere, thereby clearing Zeon's "crimes".

Now, this "charter" violates canon like five different ways, and it violates common freaking sense like twenty different ways. But hey, Japan = Zeon. Zeon is innocent like how Japan is innocent of its WW2 crimes!

Did the creators ever said that the charter was autentic? For as far we know, Zeon Zum Daikun was the first who ever spoke about Newtypes, and he did it well after the start of the Universal Century.

[Zinegata]

Regarding Unicorn...
Spoiler

The authencity of the charter is just glossed over. But yes, it's an extremely silly document that ignores the fact that Zeon only started preaching Contolism in 0045/46 (depending on which timeline you follow), and that it makes no sense given that Earthnoids can be "Newtypes" too, so granting colonies independence will in no way spur human "evolution".

Which is ironic given that in CCA (which is arguably the end of the original Zeon saga), Newtype powers saved the Earth. The very powers that Char was allegedly trying to encourage actually said "Fuck you!" to him and instead told him that "The Earth deserves to live too."

Also, regarding Origins... paper publications are much more likely to show Zeon as the bad guys. Apparently, the market for the books are geeks who know real history and know Japan in WW2 were bad guys.

Unfortunately, this isn't really shared by the animation crew, who tend to turn Gundam into a vehicle for Japanese nationalism (starting wit 0083, and going into ridiculous heights with SEED/Destiny). Really, 0083's plot involves Nazi remnants stealing an Allied super weapon, nuking Pearl Harbor, and blowing up Kansas to starve millions. All in the name of Hitler. And yet they dumbed the series down to the point that most fans were cheering for the said Nazis because they simply were so much more badass.

[Bottlestein]

^ I've not watched SEED, so was wondering where they put in the nationalism. I agree that 0083 was ridiculous in its Zeon apologia. However, for an animator's ham-fisted attempt to rewrite history to wank Japan dry, Code Geass takes the cake.

[Sinanju]

^ I've not watched SEED, so was wondering where they put in the nationalism. I agree that 0083 was ridiculous in its Zeon apologia. However, for an animator's ham-fisted attempt to rewrite history to wank Japan dry, Code Geass takes the cake.

Orb is a neutral nation located somewhere in the Pacific with a strong pacifist streak. The Earth Alliance needed Orb's high-tech industries to help them make their own Mobile Suits. And it consistently names its ships and mobile suits in Japanese. Supposedly the country is based on Australia or New Zealand, but they're really not fooling anybody.

This is taken to new (stupid) heights in Destiny where Orb can do no wrong, even when they are. Even if the country is clearly pulling a dick move, Saint Yamato will be there to strike their enemies down and keep them from suffering the consequences. Oh, and it turns out that their last king left a mobile suit to his daughter called the Akatsuki. Which has a shield named for one of the Imperial Regalia of Japan. But they're totally not Japanese, we swear!

[SAMAS]

I suppose you could say that rather than trying to excuse WWII Japan, SEED Destiny wanks modern Japan.

[lord Martiya]

Also, regarding Origins... paper publications are much more likely to show Zeon as the bad guys. Apparently, the market for the books are geeks who know real history and know Japan in WW2 were bad guys.

Uhm... I'm starting to understand why Tomino was THAT bitter about the original Italian dub (when Italian TV re-broadcasted Gundam in 2004 they had to re-dub the entire series with voice actors and dialogues approved by Tomino himself and toss away the Italian opening before he approved), if Japanese fans are like that...
By the way, I have a question: how the hell did Char got mistaken for a great general? I mean, what he did in the series was just being a troubleshooter! His jobs, in the order, were:
1)shutting down the developement of Federation MS (failure, albeith explainable by bad timing and one of his men attacking too soon);
2)shooting down the Gundam and the White Base (job thrown for the sake of getting Garma killed);
3)preventing the Federation ground forces from invading Africa by sinking their ships (he apparently sank enough ships to do the job);
4)sabotaging the GM production (failure for impossibly bad luck. I mean, who could have expected three tied up children to free themselves and take away the bombs?!);
5)testing two new MA (and he gave them an hell of a test by sending them against the Gundam);
6)escorting and training Lalah Sune (success, almost costing his own life);
7)harassing Federation forces at Solomon with Lalah (partial success: Lalah did destroy some Federation ships with nobody being the wiser, but then the Gundam got involved and Lalah killed);
defending a sector of A Baoa Qu alone (initially a success, then he got busy fighting the Gundam and the Federation forces just ignored him and invaded A Baoa Qu).
From what I got, he was good at shooting down things, and his commanders always gave him exactly this job, but being good at killing things doesn't necessarily means being good at commanding. And Char was never a general to begin with (he should have been promoted at major general when he managed to shoot down the Gundam, but we don't know if he actually got the promotion).

Unfortunately, this isn't really shared by the animation crew, who tend to turn Gundam into a vehicle for Japanese nationalism (starting wit 0083, and going into ridiculous heights with SEED/Destiny). Really, 0083's plot involves Nazi remnants stealing an Allied super weapon, nuking Pearl Harbor, and blowing up Kansas to starve millions. All in the name of Hitler. And yet they dumbed the series down to the point that most fans were cheering for the said Nazis because they simply were so much more badass.

Didn't Japan had Rikidozan and his pupils to save Japan pride after WWII?

[General Mung Beans]

^ I've not watched SEED, so was wondering where they put in the nationalism. I agree that 0083 was ridiculous in its Zeon apologia. However, for an animator's ham-fisted attempt to rewrite history to wank Japan dry, Code Geass takes the cake.

Orb is a neutral nation located somewhere in the Pacific with a strong pacifist streak. The Earth Alliance needed Orb's high-tech industries to help them make their own Mobile Suits. And it consistently names its ships and mobile suits in Japanese. Supposedly the country is based on Australia or New Zealand, but they're really not fooling anybody.

This is taken to new (stupid) heights in Destiny where Orb can do no wrong, even when they are. Even if the country is clearly pulling a dick move, Saint Yamato will be there to strike their enemies down and keep them from suffering the consequences. Oh, and it turns out that their last king left a mobile suit to his daughter called the Akatsuki. Which has a shield named for one of the Imperial Regalia of Japan. But they're totally not Japanese, we swear!

Why the heck would Earth Alliance need Orb's industries-the Earth Alliance controls North America, Europe, Russia, and East Asia-pretty much the major industrial centres of the world while Orb seems to be some tiny collection of South Pacific islands.

[Zinegata]

SEED and Destiny somehow tries to portray both modern Japan and WW2/Post WW2 Japan in a good light.

Modern Japan = Orb. It can do no wrong with its position of neutrality, and only gets dragged into conflicts it doesn't want because of George W Bush (literally). They are attacked by the Earth Alliance late in SEED partly because they have advanced MS tech (because Orb harbors Coordinators), but largely because they wanted Orb's mass-driver. However, Orb can do no wrong and they have Kira Yamato to blast away anyone who disagrees.

WW2/Post WW2 Japan = ZAFT, but only if you read all the source materials and only in a more roundabout way. An isolated island in space that is an industrial powerhouse to the point it was killing off Earth-based industries (which was the Earth Alliance's causus belli for war). Populated entirely by racially superior beings. And they were nuked without provocation, much like how Japan nowadays portrays WW2 as the US nuking them for no good reason (and forgetting Nanking, Pearl Harbor, and all the other shit before that). That turned them into a hyper-aggressive, racist military power who committed a ton of atrocities - but it's all okay because "they got nuked first".

So, basically, ZAFT's history is 1970s Japan, but going backwards. Mass industrialization, followed by American nuking, followed by genocidal military campaign. As opposed to real history's genocidal military campaign, getting bitch-slapped and nuked by the US, and then followed by mass industrialization.

----

Also, regarding Char:

He was always overrated. His main claim to fame is that he sank five battleships during the Loum, but his subsequent military career was mediocre at best. The only reason he managed to stave off being sacked was that Kishira saw an opportunity to poach a reasonably good Space Attack Force ace pilot, and got smitten because he had the same mask fetish she did .

It's worth noting that the operation to sabotage Jaburo was in fact one of his worst acts of insubordination. California base had been carefully husbanding its resources for the Jaburo assault. Char counter-manded months of planning and basically sent them in half-ready and got most of the troops slaughtered.

[lord Martiya]

Also, regarding Char:

He was always overrated. His main claim to fame is that he sank five battleships during the Loum, but his subsequent military career was mediocre at best. The only reason he managed to stave off being sacked was that Kishira saw an opportunity to poach a reasonably good Space Attack Force ace pilot, and got smitten because he had the same mask fetish she did .

Well, maybe there was the fact he was still pretty good at blowing up things (the exact thing Kycilia used him for). For more complicated things she and Dozle sent different people (she sent M'qube, Dozle sent Ramba Ral. Both have easily outperformed Char as commanders), but when it came at blowing up things...
And about Loum, there's a nice blow at Char reputation in Origins: while talking of Zeon aces after finding out the Three Black Stars were around, Job John repeated of how Char sank five battleships at Loum... Only to have Ryu nitpicking that only one was a battleship, three ships were Salamis battlecruisers and one was of another model he failed to state because of the wounds inflicted on him by Ramba Ral. And in the Loum flashback we see EXACTLY what ships Char sank: in the order a carrier-adapted Columbus nuked in the hangar (incidentally, in this incarnation Loum is a veteran of Loum, and that Columbus was his mothership), a Salamis, a couple Magellans (one of which was Wakkein's ship) and then another Salamis, this one with a single, well-placed nuke. OK, Ryu mistook one of the Magellans for a Salamis, but the thing is that Origins debunked Char claim to fame... Interesting noting that Char NEVER referred to the five battleships he sank, only to the fact he was damn good at blowing up things. Maybe he knew to be overrated...

[Zinegata]

Char's five battleship claim mainly comes from the (usually) reliable MSV archives. However, sinking five battleships would mean he sank nearly half of the Federation battleship force at the Loum (as MSV tends to use the lower numbers, and hence follows EB1's twelve Magellan-class figure as opposed to the dozens in EB39).

In every depiction of Char's famed Loum attack (i.e. G-Generation, Char's Counter-attack the Video Game), he never sinks five Magellan class ships. It's usually five Salamis class cruisers, or a mix of ships. Which does lend credence to the claim that when MSV refers to Char sinking five battleships, they actually mean five warships.

Still, the top scorer at the Loum is actually Shin Matsunaga - who sank six ships in total (one battleships, five cruisers).

Char's career post-Loum however, consisted mainly of disobeying orders (or having his men disobey orders and get themselves killed). He personally destroys a lot of enemy machines, but he never actually follows the sound military objectives that are given to him. This is most blatantly displayed at A Bao A Qu - while Char decided to try and hunt down Amuro with his Zeong, he only engaged and destroyed Federation forces who were directly opposing him, instead of taking them all on as he should.

By contrast, Amuro deliberately avoided fighting Char until the White Base and most of the ships were already landing at A Bao A Qu, where they could deliver devastating point-blank fire that would bring the space fortress down.

[lord Martiya]

Char's career post-Loum however, consisted mainly of disobeying orders (or having his men disobey orders and get themselves killed). He personally destroys a lot of enemy machines, but he never actually follows the sound military objectives that are given to him. This is most blatantly displayed at A Bao A Qu - while Char decided to try and hunt down Amuro with his Zeong, he only engaged and destroyed Federation forces who were directly opposing him, instead of taking them all on as he should.

By contrast, Amuro deliberately avoided fighting Char until the White Base and most of the ships were already landing at A Bao A Qu, where they could deliver devastating point-blank fire that would bring the space fortress down.

Yeah, I know. That's why I said Char was mainly used to blow up things, it was the one thing he could do best than anyone else save Lalah.

[scythewielder]

To be perfectly honest...as long as it's all about silly fiction created for a purely commercial purpose, I don't really care about how many intended or unintended politically and factually incorrect parallels are implied or directly expressed in any of the Gundam series or any of the franchises Japan has ever produced for matter. I don't think it's worth the effort of reading too much into any of them or feeling offended, regardless of what the creators did or didn't mean to say.

Outside of the direct use of quasi-Nazi imagery and rhetoric, which is definitely in poor taste and insensitive...real or perceived "revisionism" in non-historical fiction where giant robots or people with fantastical powers fight each other isn't much of a problem. Its main purpose is to entertain and sell merchandise, not to educate. I'd rather see the Japanese revise their educational system and its textbooks to match the realities of their WWII crimes than worry about the white-washing of the non-existent Zeon, Orb or what have you.

To put it another way, I don't really care about the fact that many American cartoons both past and present portray the U.S. or the West at large as squeaky-clean good guys fighting evil foreigners, aliens or worse either, in spite of the fact that the implied historical parallels would arguably make this setup just as -if not more- insensitive and offensive thanks to the wonders of colonialism, imperialism and the like. The United States itself has brought a lot of good but also a lot of harm to this world and yet it's constantly portrayed in a positive light in most of its entertainment output (the exceptions make up a small part of the pie). It's not worth getting up in arms over that.

Mindlessly waving around the Zeon flag or finding ways to portray Char Aznable as an admirable figure instead of the stubborn psychological wreck he really was by the time CCA came around is nothing but child's play, at the end of the day, and any viewer who reaches the flawed conclusion that "Zeon is right!" somehow means "WWII Germany / Japan was right!" must be too ignorant or stupid to live in the first place if they can't distinguish fact from fiction.

[Zinegata]

Or you can just say "Gundam is just a 30 minute toy commercial". Pretty much all knowledgeable Gundam fans know this to be true.

The thing is, Gundam isn't comparable to an American Saturday Morning cartoon. Because Gundam isn't Japan's equivalent of a Saturday morning cartoon. It's their equivalent of Star Trek. It's their flagship science fiction show. Heck, if this site was founded by a Japanse sci-fi fan (who had little contact with the West) it would likely be named Musai.net

And isn't the point of SD.net to discuss these shows? A lot of digital ink has been spilled on this site on topics like how the TNG Federation is in fact a communist society. Hence, it's equally valid to discuss how Gundam shows are increasingly becoming vehicles of extreme Japanese nationalism.