What if the Empire invaded modern day Earth?

[Star Wars 888]

As i said:
You have no idea about the engineering issue and are absolutely oversimplifing the issue.

Besides, they do indeed have non nuclear ICBMS. Do they have a lot of them? No. Have they ever used them? No. Are the majority of ICBMS nuclear? Yes. However, the fact that they DO have them and made them shows that they know how to.

The analogy was an exaggeration, but my point is that it wouldn't take years for a superpower to do it.

Bullshit. The Falcon had to escape in order to show them the hidden rebel base.

Bullshit. They used probe droids to do that.

[Serafina]

Bullshit. The Falcon had to escape in order to show them the hidden rebel base.

Bullshit. They used probe droids to do that.

Hey, retard. They did not do that at that point - you were talking about ANH. They had no idea where to look. That's why they tortured Leia.
Honestly, if you do not even get the basic plot of the movie, your claims about it's other contents are worthless.

[Star Wars 888]

Hey, retard. They did not do that at that point - you were talking about ANH. They had no idea where to look. That's why they tortured Leia.
Honestly, if you do not even get the basic plot of the movie, your claims about it's other contents are worthless.

I was talking about the ESB asteroid field scene. I even provided a youtube link showing the chase. Obviously you didn't pay attention and made assumptions.

[Serafina]

Hey, hatfucker, you were saying this:

In ANH they wanted to disable the Falcon. They clearly failed. They weren't missing on purpose; they were trying to hit the Falcon enough so that it's disable, but couldn't.

They did not want to disable the Falcon in ANH. Everyone with a basic grasp of the plot should know that.

[Batman]

The ESB asteroid field scene WHERE VADER WANTED THE CREW OF THE FALCON ALIVE?

[Star Wars 888]

Hey, hatfucker, you were saying this:

In ANH they wanted to disable the Falcon. They clearly failed. They weren't missing on purpose; they were trying to hit the Falcon enough so that it's disable, but couldn't.

They did not want to disable the Falcon in ANH. Everyone with a basic grasp of the plot should know that.

Oops, that was a typo.

[Star Wars 888]

The ESB asteroid field scene WHERE VADER WANTED THE CREW OF THE FALCON ALIVE?

Clearly you have not actually read my arguments, and BTW why did you suddenly drop our debate?

[Batman]

The ESB asteroid field scene WHERE VADER WANTED THE CREW OF THE FALCON ALIVE?

Clearly you have not actually read my arguments, and BTW why did you suddenly drop our debate?

I have and you whined the TIEs couldn't hit the Falcon (which they DID, as did Avenger) in a situation where they weren't shooting to kill to begin with.
And I wasn't aware I'm REQUIRED to continue debating someone, especially when said someone apparently doesn't know beans about EITHER party.
But as it happens I moved to a different PC over the weekend and by the time I was back online the debate had moved on and others had addressed most of your points and I consider replying to a post two pages old bad form.

[Star Wars 888]

I have and you whined the TIEs couldn't hit the Falcon (which they DID, as did Avenger) in a situation where they weren't shooting to kill to begin with.

They did, but they hit only around 1/4 of the time. It's understandable since it's pretty hard to hit an object moving that fast from that far away, but it does disprove the idea that 100 tie fighters can intercept thousands of missiles.

And I wasn't aware I'm REQUIRED to continue debating someone, especially when said someone apparently doesn't know beans about EITHER party.

You yourself admitted that the invasion force fails due to logistics.

That's my point.
AT-ATs run out of fuel.
Tie fighters run out of fuel.
AT-STs run out of fuel.
Then there's 500,000 stormtroopers with no more support because their support ran out of fuel.
500,000 stormtroopers who have no defense against long range attacks or air attacks.
500,000 stormtroopers who cannot capture and occupy the Earth.
500,000 stormtroopers who's power packs will run out eventually, especially since power packs are apparently hard to maintain in forest areas.

But as it happens I moved to a different PC over the weekend and by the time I was back online the debate had moved on and others had addressed most of your points and I consider replying to a post two pages old bad form.

How's that bad form?

[Junghalli]

The only way I think the Earth can win is that if, and I stress IF, the Imperials

realize that getting big numbers of their own killed trying to take over Earth is kind of stupid and they are probably better off just integrating into our society.

I think something like that is more likely what would realistically happen here.

[Batman]

I have and you whined the TIEs couldn't hit the Falcon (which they DID, as did Avenger) in a situation where they weren't shooting to kill to begin with.

They did, but they hit only around 1/4 of the time. It's understandable since it's pretty hard to hit an object moving that fast from that far away, but it does disprove the idea that 100 tie fighters can intercept thousands of missiles.

No it doesn't. Repeating that over and over doesn't make it true.
The Falcon could dodge. ICBMs CAN'T. The TIEs (and the ISDs) were NOT shooting to kill thus the misses might have been DELIBERATE. Won't happen vs the ICBMs, most of which don't EXIST (which you yourself admitted to earlier in this thread when PeZook I think presented the numbers for the ICBMs Earth actually HAS) none of which will do beans thanks to lousy accuracy for a conventional warhead and plenty of time for the Imperials to get out of the way.

And I wasn't aware I'm REQUIRED to continue debating someone, especially when said someone apparently doesn't know beans about EITHER party.

You yourself admitted that the invasion force fails due to logistics.
That's my point.

No, your point seems to be that Earth could actually put up a fight BEFORE they run out of supplies (which EVERYBODY in this thread has taken for granted) and that's hogwash. Technologically Earth is out-EVERYTHINGed by the Empire.

But as it happens I moved to a different PC over the weekend and by the time I was back online the debate had moved on and others had addressed most of your points and I consider replying to a post two pages old bad form.

How's that bad form?

I didn't say it IS. I said I CONSIDER it that. And the REASON I do is because when a debate has moved on and most if not all of the points I WOULD be responding to have already been dealt with (possibly repeatedly) that's a waste of everybody's time (including mine).

[Star Wars 888]

No it doesn't. Repeating that over and over doesn't make it true.

The Falcon could dodge. ICBMs CAN'T. The TIEs (and the ISDs) were NOT shooting to kill thus the misses might have been DELIBERATE. Won't happen vs the ICBMs, most of which don't EXIST (which you yourself admitted to earlier in this thread when PeZook I think presented the numbers for the ICBMs Earth actually HAS) none of which will do beans thanks to lousy accuracy for a conventional warhead and plenty of time for the Imperials to get out of the way.

Yet you still haven't provided any proof or evidence suggesting that tie fighters are accurate enough to shoot down thousands of missiles in a matter of minutes or seconds.

No, your point seems to be that Earth could actually put up a fight BEFORE they run out of supplies (which EVERYBODY in this thread has taken for granted) and that's hogwash. Technologically Earth is out-EVERYTHINGed by the Empire.

Actually, they can. As I've explained, an Abrams tank is comparable, possibly even superior to an AT-ST in combat.

I didn't say it IS. I said I CONSIDER it that. And the REASON I do is because when a debate has moved on and most if not all of the points I WOULD be responding to have already been dealt with (possibly repeatedly) that's a waste of everybody's time (including mine).

Maybe in your perspective, but you still haven't proven how tie fighters can shoot down missiles as accurately and quickly as you claim.

If the invasion force tries to take a well prepared military base, artillery and tanks can indeed damage the invasion force's stormtroopers and AT-STs.

[PeZook]

Fine, you can doubt that statement, since I can't find the source.

And you could, perhaps, concede the point?

Actually, they might. The USA would have their own supply lines and would be moving through friendly territory.

I'm sorry, but the entirety of the Brazillian Army has 2 armored brigades and 4 mechanized infantry brigades, or just a bit more than one heavy division. The rest of their army is motorized infantry and various specialized light infantry forces. The tanks they use are Leopards, M60 and some obsolete tincans nobody cares about, their IFVs, APCs and MLRS are all indigenous designs. The air force flies Mirage 2000s, modernized A-1Ms and...wait for it...F-5Es.

They will not have the necessary supplies stockpiled to keep a major international force going, since their logistical network is obviously designed to support their own armed forces. At best, they could provide fuel and food, but not all-important spares, hangar space and railway capacity - these will all have to be expanded at great cost in time and money.

Yet said invasion force would lose to the USA or another major world power.

It's likely if they just lined up and squared off, but as I keep pounding into your thick skull, the situation is far, far more complicated than that.

WTF? Iirc they do indeed have air to ground missiles. And yes, other planes could be used as well.

They don't, and yes, if anybody will try to attack the Imperials, they will use other planes for that.

Um, no, it wouldn't. Would it take years to design, develop and test putting apples instead of peanuts inside of a peanut jar?

You can either disassemble the warhead bus and the warheads inside and use the casing...oh wait, you can't! Because replacing the fissile material inside the warhead radically alters the mass distribution, which requires an entire new design for the re-entry vehicle!

Then you have to make new fusing systems (here at least you can use the original detonators, but you still have to rip them out of the existing warheads! You know, the things full of radioactive fissiles...) and integrate them into warheads. Then run tests, since you will inevitably have engineering issues with the newly rearmed missiles.

And there are probably a zillion other things you will have to do before you can launch your masses ICBM strike. Oh, and you have to repeat it for each missile type. Have fun trying to convince the Russians, Chinese or Indians that no, you don't really want them to neuter their entire deterrent based on your say-so! Honest! We just want to fight those evil people causing trouble in the butthole of the world!

Except that we're talking about thousands of them, as well as artillery shells and missiles.

I thought you conceded there aren't thousands of ICBMs in the world?

And you need to get the artillery where it's needed first, which returns us to our current problem.

My assessment is that they fail due to logistics.

No, you obviously think they get beaten back by a counter-invasion.

Full armored - true, probably their main advantage
Fully automatic blasters - well yeah, blasters and pretty powerful, another advantage
Heavy weapons with nuclear yields - bullshit. Sure space ships and maybe powerful ground vehicles in Star Wars have beyond nuclear yields, but thermal detonators and such do not.

They have shoulder-launched missiles which can be used to engage and destroy shielded starfighters, and thermal detonators possess yields from a standard grenade (ROTJ scene where Leia made everyone in a room cower) to building-busters like the one Solo carried on Dathomir in a failed suicide bombing attempt.

Two way radios and sensors - which they never seem to use

How did you arrive at that conclusion? They were directed around the Death Star via radio, and have been observed to take accurate snapshots at silhouettes without using iron sights on their weapons...

Were the Chinese forces planning on taking over the world?

Yes, according to opinions prevalent in the US at the time, and their own propaganda, communism wanted to take over the world. In this situation, the world won't know what the Imperials are planning until they announce it or make some other move.

Yet the invasion force would be hard pressed to occupy such a large territory of land. They'd also have to set up an industrial base and infrastructure.

Half a million men is enough to occupy any South American country save Brazil.

Interestingly enough this invasion force would be perceived as a far greater threat than Saddam with his army and 70s era tech.

Possibly, but they can't be curbstomped as easily. Same as the Russians, if you may notice.

"they are already bankrupt" - lol what? The economy may be down, but we are by no means "bankrupt"

Have you taken a look at your national debt, by any chance?

"vastly superior enemy" - until their AT-ATs, tie fighters and AT-STs run out of fuel, in which case the invasion force is left with 500,000 stormtroopers with no anti air or missile defense capabilities

The basic stormtrooper is still vastly superior to any infantryman on Earth even without their armor and air support, though obviously not to heavy forces with air superiority. Still, air superiority doesn't win wars, so you will still have to send in infantry to fight stormtroopers directly. This means a grisly jungle/urban/mountain fight with hundreds of thousands of casualties.

Since when does that make them worthless?

Because stromtroopers can kill them easily with blasters, somewhat less easily with earth weapons, while you need .50 cal guns or autocannons to kill them. That means mechanized infantry, since light infantry will be woefully outgunned.

BTW, are we talking about the OT stormtroopers that have terrible skill and tactical capabilities, or the somewhat more competent EU stormtroopers?

The only place in the movies we can infer poor tactics is ROTJ, where they were massacring the Ewoks throughout the battle. EU is full of examples of competent stormtroopers.

Or air; don't they have air transports capable of transporting tanks?

Yes. One at a time for a C-17, two for a C-5. Transporting a mechanized division and supplying it via air would take more planes the US has available, not to mention airbases in the theatre capable of taking C-5s (C-17s can operate from short runways, which makes them awesome, but nobody sane would try to supply an armored division via air)

Tie fighters can't move as fast in the atmosphere as they can in space, and in the OT they seem to be unable to move at full speed while attacking too.

They can't move "as fast", but they can survive re-entry just fine, strafe the ships and zoom back beyond the SM-3 engagement envelope. Repeat as necessary.

And how exactly will stormtroopers stop a combined armed invasion force of infantry, ships, aircraft and tanks?

How exactly are you going to force a landing with armor against them? The port in question will have to be taken by relatively light forces, or heavy ones marching from friendly territorry through rugged terrain and poor roads.

And they have years.

They do? You will maintain the political will throughout several administrations of most countries?

AT-ATs maybe, but AT-STs not that much. Note that the AT-ATs, AT-STs and tie fighters can't refuel or restock their ammo using resources found here on Earth. Stormtroopers cannot resupply their ammo either. The invasion force's superior tech will eventually wear out.

It will, my point is that they don't need to maintain it very long: enough to entrench themselves and become untouchable without a massive invasion on the scale of Operation Overlord.

Did you read the OP? Besides, who's to say that engineers (if they even brought any) would know how to make power packs? Why would they need to when they're likely manufactured in some factory? Sure there would be some engineers or other specialists that would know how to make that stuff, but why would they be in an invasion force?

You obviously didn't understand me. The power pack and blaster you can just give away for the US to try and reverse-engineer. Military engineers (they will have to have some if it's a proper army, rather than a mob) will also have their own equipment, droids and personal computers full of information: things like maintenance schematics for equipment, material specifications, compositions of explosives, possibly textbooks and tables, etc, not to mention basic scientific knowledge in their heads.

China - necessary for the USA's economy

And neither are a threat to the survival of the USA, especially since the Cold War is, like, over.

Why would the US believe the Imperials to be a threat to their survival? They didn't go to war against the USSR which outright stated the US was its primary hated enemy, because it would cost hundreds of millions of lives.

I don't see why the entire world would suddendly gang up on that Imperial army, frothing at the mouth about killing them all.

Yet military wise they're pretty capable, and PR wise most people know about and generally don't hate Brazil and would care (well, I guess a little) about it.

Care enough to send their boys to die by the thousands to liberate it?

Which would be necessary if the invasion force is a threat to the Earth.

Except it's not, they will easily realize that, and will use diplomacy to secure their position.

The stormtroopers would be combating the Brazilian troops, and if they win would they let Brazil keep its army and such? That would leave the invasion force ripe to be overthrown upon a counter invasion.

If there's one thing the Empire has experience in, it's keeping a lid on occupied populations. What's so incredulous about using local auxilliaries to police conquered territories? It happens all the time, you just make sure your army and police are ideologically correct. Give the locals incentive to be loyal, replace all commanders and don't have soldiers do massacres on their own, and you can reduce the problem massively. Promise their country will become the next world superpower, while toting obviously superior technology, and you get another way of decreasing resistance problems.

You can, of course, elliminate them entirely by simply forging an alliance of convenience with somebody. Imperials get a base/city/autonomous territorry, Brazil gets technicians and radically advanced equipment to study. Eventually, Vader gets elected President

And it wouldn't look good for the USA's PR to help a genocidal regime simply to get a few technological gimmicks.

Yeah, I guess they care so much about PR fallout from supporting Marcos or Pinochet or the Shah or the Saudi Royal Family...oh, wait...

They may be able to do that (with time), but to make Star Wars missiles would be beyond their capability.

Of course it would, they have no industry to do it. Fortunately, you don't need SW tech missiles to sink transport ships loaded with ammunition and fuel.

"too high for the benefit" - yet you (or what it someone else?) claimed that in 10 years they'd be a threat to the Earth. The benefit of stopping them before that is the survival of humanity (well, the invasion force is made up of humans too, but you get the point, right?).

No, I claimed they could make their territorry into a technological superpower. Is the US a threat to Earth? Is Russia? How about India, now on the rise as a new great power...should the world to wipe out India?

Maybe. Their armor's durability is hard to quantify.

However, the armor doesn't stop kinetic energy, as shown during the Battle of Endor. A 50 caliber bullet hitting a stormtrooper's head protected by a helmet would still give the stormtrooper a bad concussion.

Actually it stops kinetic energy, but not momentum. Hence why a 50 cal bullet to the head will probably kill or incapacitable a stormtrooper, and a 25mm shell will likely break bones.

That is, however, a pretty massive advantage if you need such overkill to deal with enemy infantry.

100 tie fighters would have to find the transport ships. The Ocean is pretty large relative to a tie fighter. Once they find them, they have to hit the transport ships and sink them for your plan to work. This takes fuel, ammo and time, non of which the invasion force has much of.

Just watch CNN, find the port they're unloading in on Google Maps and strafe the ships while they're waiting at anchor besides an allied port. This minimizes the fuel consumption and flight time, and elliminates all the problems with looking for the fleet. While you're at it, blow up the port facilities as well.

Alternatively, for a more advanced trick, Imperials could try to hijack our satellite network. They can directly interface with the sats, after all, and we can't stop them from doing so, though it's much more difficult than just blowing them all up.

Actually, they can. As I've explained, an Abrams tank is comparable, possibly even superior to an AT-ST in combat.

And I can say a US Navy destroyer is vastly superior to a stormtrooper in combat, too! They can kill the stormie by shooting cruise missiles at him, the Empire is obviously not technologically superior!

[Batman]

Yet you still haven't provided any proof or evidence suggesting that tie fighters are accurate enough to shoot down thousands of missiles in a matter of minutes or seconds.

They won't NEED to thanks to there not BEING thousands of missiles and the ones BEING there being completely useless thanks to you arming them with conventional warheads.

No, your point seems to be that Earth could actually put up a fight BEFORE they run out of supplies (which EVERYBODY in this thread has taken for granted) and that's hogwash. Technologically Earth is out-EVERYTHINGed by the Empire.

Actually, they can. As I've explained, an Abrams tank is comparable, possibly even superior to an AT-ST in combat.

You haven't EXPLAINED, you BLITHELY ASSUMED. But even if we assume this to be true, how is the Abrams going to get close enough to shoot? The Imperials have total air superiority and a massive sensor/EW advantage. As long as their supplies last you're never getting anything except MAYBE light infantry close enough to actually try and fight them. Which will then get eaten because while stormtroopers are essentially bulletproof, modern day infantry is NOT.

I didn't say it IS. I said I CONSIDER it that. And the REASON I do is because when a debate has moved on and most if not all of the points I WOULD be responding to have already been dealt with (possibly repeatedly) that's a waste of everybody's time (including mine).

Maybe in your perspective, but you still haven't proven how tie fighters can shoot down missiles as accurately and quickly as you claim.

Watch the freaking movies dumbass. TIEs can hit targets far smaller than ICBMs that actually try to evade. ICBMs are BALLISTIC (that's what the B in ICBM stands for). They're sitting ducks for TIEs.
But let's assume they CAN'T. Congratulations! You just wasted Earth's only chance to actually HURT the Imperials (nuclear ICBMs) by using every last one of them making craters in south america while the Imperials are elsewhere thanks to having seen them coming pretty much from launch. And that's IGNORING their CEP means there's a good chance they'll do jack all even if the Imperials stay put.

If the invasion force tries to take a well prepared military base, artillery and tanks can indeed damage the invasion force's stormtroopers and AT-STs.

Why would they bother?

[Serafina]

Look, here is a nice strategy where they can actually hold all that terrain:

Launch a quick attack that decimates the enemy military. This is easily done with starfighters and orbital drops of your superior ground forces (which just requires some cheap shuttles)
Great. You've just established that you can kick massive ass.
Now establish yourself as their overlord - not as a direct ruler. You don't care how they run their country, all you want is tribute. That tribute has to be paid in the form of supplies, some territory for bases and possibly troops. Those troops don't have to be good, you can take care of dangerous opponents.

Congratulations. You've just solved several of your major issues. And if you give your minions some tech, they might even get a good boost out of it. And if you are not too cruel, you might even have genuine allies.

Basically, repeat that often enough. If the earths superpowers try to intervene, make sure they cause civilan casualties - nukes are not selective and ICBMs and artillery not terribly accurate. And you can kick their ass while their supply lines suck. In fact, you can cripple their supply lines and trade - superfreighters are big, chunky targets. That will ruin their morale.
Always remember, you are not a direct ruler. You do not care about every day life, all you care about is that your marionet regimes give you what you want.
After you have kicked the superpowers ass and thrown some fodder at the world media, you have established yourself. If you manage to get actual allies, you can slowly uplift them to a force multiplier.
If you don't, then just repeat this strategy with every country you want. Paying tribute is a small price if it prevents an enemy you can't touch from ruining your country.

Build a base on the moon with all that tribute material. Establish a colony. And voila, you are now ruling the world - everyone does your bidding and you do not have to care about every-day politics.
Get some women - you'll probably find volunteers with all your power and advanced tech - and you can keep it that way for millenia.

[PeZook]

I...doubt they'd be able to build and maintain a large lunar colony with the resources of various south american crapholes

[Serafina]

I...doubt they'd be able to build and maintain a large lunar colony with the resources of various south american crapholes

At that point i am no longer talking about South America. That strategy works on most of the world once you show that you are not a cruel dictator - but rather a dictator who does not care about daily life and effectively just demands additional tasks (in exchange for military protection against others, which already saves money).
Most countries would be willing to subject to that, especially if you give them some harmless technology (non-military stuff). Resistance at that point would not only be futile, but you don't have much reason to resist either.

Remember tough, lifting is not an issue if the imperials start out with at least some larger shuttles. And they have to in order to transport the AT-ATs.
All you need are air-tight materials, power plants and other building materials. Those should not be too difficult to get, even if you only have South America. Heck, if you settle with South America just trade with the USA and Europe for that stuff once you stop aggressive acts.

A moon base makes you untouchable and is also another nice demonstration of power. And with your lifting capability it's not that expensive either.

[Thanas]

Yeah, that was against EW. THere is no evidence at all that the Earth is able to put out a jamming field that extends into space.

Except that in the movies they were talking about the difficulty of that without mentioning jamming or having any evidence that they knew about the jamming systems that the death star supposedly had.

YOu really think they would not anticipate Jamming? Tell me, why would they anticipate jamming in standard battles, but not in this one?

And how will they make this "upgrade kit"?

Apparently, it is standard inventory. Or if you want to, a 200m base was able to produce it within a day. Are you now claiming the IMps have no repair capability whatsoever?

But the Empire does not need to conquer anything - most nations would most likely just join them or give them basing rights. And I bet that a few million Earthers will nearly immediately join up with the Empire when they promise the end of famines, the end of aids, Ebola, free medicine for all etc.

Except that the Empire is a genocidal empire that relies on the Tarkin doctrine (which, BTW, seems to fail all the time) and wouldn't do that.

Why not? It is the standard Imperial approach to less civilized worlds, at least seen by Thrawn's colonization program in the UR.

1. It's not a suicide pact, because in a long scale war the USA could defeat the invasion force due to logistics and attrition.

How? The US is pretty much defenseless against TIEs, which could just blow every highway bridge in, say, western USA and voila, the USA crumbles. Take out maritime trade and the same result. There is no way the US can protect its population or logistical equipment.

And you expect them to actually ship anything against an entrenched Imperial Army?

(And before you bring ICBMs up again - these things are huge targets for the IMPs. Their fighter intercept vehicles their own size regularly and you want to give them huge, lumbering missiles with next to no maneuverability to shoot at?

[Junghalli]

The TIE fighters probably have enough delta V that if you sacrificed most of them and combined their fuel you would have enough to get a fairly respectable payload to Luna.

If their delta V is 200 km/s and they mass 10 tons each, for instance, one of them has enough energy to get 1000 tons (100X its mass) up to 20 km/s. The OP gives them, what, 100, which should be enough to get 100,000 tons up to 20 km/s (more than enough delta V to reach the moon I'm pretty sure, though I haven't done the math). Even a small fraction of that should be enough for a quite respectable moonbase (certainly NASA would cream their pants at the thought of having that kind of lift capacity available).

Getting enough thrust out of their engines to lift that kind of mass to orbit might be problematic (I haven't done the math for the various figures proposed in this thread), but perhaps they could rig up some kind of chemical-fueled first stage or jury-rig a VASIMR-style variable thrust drive or something.

[Star Wars 888]

And you could, perhaps, concede the point?

Ok, sure.

I'm sorry, but the entirety of the Brazillian Army has 2 armored brigades and 4 mechanized infantry brigades, or just a bit more than one heavy division. The rest of their army is motorized infantry and various specialized light infantry forces. The tanks they use are Leopards, M60 and some obsolete tincans nobody cares about, their IFVs, APCs and MLRS are all indigenous designs. The air force flies Mirage 2000s, modernized A-1Ms and...wait for it...F-5Es.

They will not have the necessary supplies stockpiled to keep a major international force going, since their logistical network is obviously designed to support their own armed forces. At best, they could provide fuel and food, but not all-important spares, hangar space and railway capacity - these will all have to be expanded at great cost in time and money.

What about food and water for the infantry? What about shelter? Fuel and such the USA can support. They're moving through friendly territory.

It's likely if they just lined up and squared off, but as I keep pounding into your thick skull, the situation is far, far more complicated than that.

The World has the logistical advantage though.

They don't, and yes, if anybody will try to attack the Imperials, they will use other planes for that.

Yeah.

You can either disassemble the warhead bus and the warheads inside and use the casing...oh wait, you can't! Because replacing the fissile material inside the warhead radically alters the mass distribution, which requires an entire new design for the re-entry vehicle!

Then you have to make new fusing systems (here at least you can use the original detonators, but you still have to rip them out of the existing warheads! You know, the things full of radioactive fissiles...) and integrate them into warheads. Then run tests, since you will inevitably have engineering issues with the newly rearmed missiles.

And there are probably a zillion other things you will have to do before you can launch your masses ICBM strike. Oh, and you have to repeat it for each missile type. Have fun trying to convince the Russians, Chinese or Indians that no, you don't really want them to neuter their entire deterrent based on your say-so! Honest! We just want to fight those evil people causing trouble in the butthole of the world!

1. There are indeed a few non nuclear ICBMS, meaning that they know how to make them.
2 Heck, WW2 nazi Germany was working on missiles that could hit Britain and even the USA.
3. The difference in the mass and such of the conventional warheads might cause a few difficulties, but would it take years? No.

I thought you conceded there aren't thousands of ICBMs in the world?

Ok, change it to thousands of long range missiles and artillery shells.

And you need to get the artillery where it's needed first, which returns us to our current problem.

Or the artillery could be the defending force.

No, you obviously think they get beaten back by a counter-invasion.

Due to their limited logistics.

They have shoulder-launched missiles which can be used to engage and destroy shielded starfighters,

Shielded starfighters? When have shoulder launched missiles destroyed starfighters that were shielded?

and thermal detonators possess yields from a standard grenade (ROTJ scene where Leia made everyone in a room cower) to building-busters like the one Solo carried on Dathomir in a failed suicide bombing attempt.

Which are not beyond nuclear level.

How did you arrive at that conclusion? They were directed around the Death Star via radio, and have been observed to take accurate snapshots at silhouettes without using iron sights on their weapons...

Yet their radio communication could have been used more in the Battle of Endor, and their sensors couldn't detect the heroes in the Millennium Falcon.

Yes, according to opinions prevalent in the US at the time, and their own propaganda, communism wanted to take over the world. In this situation, the world won't know what the Imperials are planning until they announce it or make some other move.

And the USA was actively fighting Communist nations because of it.

Half a million men is enough to occupy any South American country save Brazil.

Except that they start off in Brazil.

Possibly, but they can't be curbstomped as easily. Same as the Russians, if you may notice.

The Russians have nuclear deterrence. The invasion force does not, nor does it have logistical support for their tech.

Have you taken a look at your national debt, by any chance?

Except that we still have the resources and industrial capability to make stuff. In the case of a war that threatens humanity our debt can wait a little longer.

Because stromtroopers can kill them easily with blasters, somewhat less easily with earth weapons, while you need .50 cal guns or autocannons to kill them. That means mechanized infantry, since light infantry will be woefully outgunned.

You don't need mechanized infantry for .50 cal guns, or large rocks. Sure our infantry would be outmatched one on one, but they would be far from "worthless".

The only place in the movies we can infer poor tactics is ROTJ, where they were massacring the Ewoks throughout the battle. EU is full of examples of competent stormtroopers.

Those were the Empire's "finest legion" and they got humiliated. A modern military force in its place might have actually done better; an abrams tank would not have been destroyed by swinging logs nor would its hatch be unlocked for some reason.

Yes. One at a time for a C-17, two for a C-5. Transporting a mechanized division and supplying it via air would take more planes the US has available, not to mention airbases in the theatre capable of taking C-5s (C-17s can operate from short runways, which makes them awesome, but nobody sane would try to supply an armored division via air)

The thing is that, if the invasion force does want to keep out of a large scale world war in which they would surely get pwned (by logistics mainly), they wouldn't start shooting down transport ships and transport planes. The USA forces in the middle east could be recalled back to the USA mainland. No need to launch a counter invasion by sea.

They can't move "as fast", but they can survive re-entry just fine, strafe the ships and zoom back beyond the SM-3 engagement envelope. Repeat as necessary.

In ANH the tie fighters attacking the Millennium Falcon were not moving at mach 10 or whatever speed they can apparently move at. Basically, their dogfighting speed is lower then their maximum speed.

How exactly are you going to force a landing with armor against them? The port in question will have to be taken by relatively light forces, or heavy ones marching from friendly territorry through rugged terrain and poor roads.

100 AT-ATs would not be able to guard every port and city open to attack. 500,000 stormtroopers would be spread out over many ports. 100 tie fighters would be busy trying to shoot down air and sea transport ships and could be shot down by SAMs or distracted by SAMs (tie fighters don't have jamming device, do they?). 1000 AT-STs would be spread out and quite frankly almost worthless as a base defense unit.

Basically, bombardment can soften up the defenders of the port. Abrams tanks and artillery would out range stormtroopers and AT-STs.

They do? You will maintain the political will throughout several administrations of most countries?

What?

It will, my point is that they don't need to maintain it very long: enough to entrench themselves and become untouchable without a massive invasion on the scale of Operation Overlord.

Yes, it would probably take a massive invasion, but not an infeasible one. Or it could simply be a matter of waiting until their tie fighters (which don't have that much fuel, since they're designed to be dependent on support and pretty much fodder), AT-STs and AT-ATs run out of fuel.

You obviously didn't understand me. The power pack and blaster you can just give away for the US to try and reverse-engineer. Military engineers (they will have to have some if it's a proper army, rather than a mob) will also have their own equipment, droids and personal computers full of information: things like maintenance schematics for equipment, material specifications, compositions of explosives, possibly textbooks and tables, etc, not to mention basic scientific knowledge in their heads.

That's possible, but why would the USA need to have the invasion force give it to them? A successful counter invasion would give them lots of power packs, plastoid armor, AT-ATs, tie fighters and such to reverse engineer.

Why would the US believe the Imperials to be a threat to their survival? They didn't go to war against the USSR which outright stated the US was its primary hated enemy, because it would cost hundreds of millions of lives.

Possibly billions of lives due to MAD.

I don't see why the entire world would suddendly gang up on that Imperial army, frothing at the mouth about killing them all.

It's a hypothetical situation. And the USA alone if properly mobilized could pull it off.

Care enough to send their boys to die by the thousands to liberate it?

If the invasion force is a threat to humanity, yes.

Except it's not, they will easily realize that, and will use diplomacy to secure their position.

That would be foolish of the world to do. Eventually (as in decades) the invasion force would get a good infrastructure going, and possibly even start to recreate Star Wars tech. Then if they can mass produce Star Wars tech to a large enough degree, they, with the proper resources, could indeed take over the world.

If there's one thing the Empire has experience in, it's keeping a lid on occupied populations. What's so incredulous about using local auxilliaries to police conquered territories? It happens all the time, you just make sure your army and police are ideologically correct. Give the locals incentive to be loyal, replace all commanders and don't have soldiers do massacres on their own, and you can reduce the problem massively. Promise their country will become the next world superpower, while toting obviously superior technology, and you get another way of decreasing resistance problems.

Actually the Empire used the "tarkin doctrine", which is supposed to keep the population in line through fear (although it didn't seem to actually work).

You can, of course, elliminate them entirely by simply forging an alliance of convenience with somebody. Imperials get a base/city/autonomous territorry, Brazil gets technicians and radically advanced equipment to study. Eventually, Vader gets elected President

That's ridiculous. I'll assume that your statement about Vader is a joke.

Yeah, I guess they care so much about PR fallout from supporting Marcos or Pinochet or the Shah or the Saudi Royal Family...oh, wait...

Except that this one would have far more publicity.

Of course it would, they have no industry to do it. Fortunately, you don't need SW tech missiles to sink transport ships loaded with ammunition and fuel.

But you would if you want to stop an entire invasion force with 100 fighters.

No, I claimed they could make their territorry into a technological superpower. Is the US a threat to Earth? Is Russia? How about India, now on the rise as a new great power...should the world to wipe out India?

The invasion force, if it has time to develop, could become a legitimate threat to Earth. The USA didn't want to invade the USSR (and vice versa) due to the near impossibility of occupying such a territory and MAD.

Actually it stops kinetic energy, but not momentum. Hence why a 50 cal bullet to the head will probably kill or incapacitable a stormtrooper, and a 25mm shell will likely break bones.

That is, however, a pretty massive advantage if you need such overkill to deal with enemy infantry.

Yet the USA would outnumber the stormtroopers by quite a bit. Note that a 50 cal sniper rifle would outrange the stormtroopers' standard blaster rifles. Snipers could lie in ambush in the rainforests and such. AT-STs that try and scout for them find themselves destroyed by logs.

Just watch CNN, find the port they're unloading in on Google Maps and strafe the ships while they're waiting at anchor besides an allied port. This minimizes the fuel consumption and flight time, and elliminates all the problems with looking for the fleet. While you're at it, blow up the port facilities as well.

Since when would they have internet access? Well, maybe once they capture a country. And it would not be beyond possibility for the government to shut down Google map temporarily.

Alternatively, for a more advanced trick, Imperials could try to hijack our satellite network. They can directly interface with the sats, after all, and we can't stop them from doing so, though it's much more difficult than just blowing them all up.

And surely Vader would try and run for president and bribe the world while his forces are trying to jam our communications.

And I can say a US Navy destroyer is vastly superior to a stormtrooper in combat, too! They can kill the stormie by shooting cruise missiles at him, the Empire is obviously not technologically superior!

Except that an abrams tank and an AT-ST have similar roles; well, an AT-ST is a scout - combat hybrid it seems, and although a "level down" from an Abrams tank, in this scenario the only heavy vehicles they get are 100 AT-ATs that can't be everywhere at once and can be bypassed.

I'm not doubting that the invasion force is technologically superior, but logistics defeats them.

[The Vortex Empire]

EDIT: Whoops, thought the last page was the last page. Could a mod delete this post?

[Star Wars 888]

They won't NEED to thanks to there not BEING thousands of missiles and the ones BEING there being completely useless thanks to you arming them with conventional warheads.

Fine. How about cruise missiles and other long range missiles? How about artillery shells?

You haven't EXPLAINED, you BLITHELY ASSUMED. But even if we assume this to be true, how is the Abrams going to get close enough to shoot? The Imperials have total air superiority and a massive sensor/EW advantage. As long as their supplies last you're never getting anything except MAYBE light infantry close enough to actually try and fight them. Which will then get eaten because while stormtroopers are essentially bulletproof, modern day infantry is NOT.

An AT-ST got destroyed by swinging logs.

Who's to say that the Abrams tank is on the offensive? They could be a defensive force.

Watch the freaking movies dumbass. TIEs can hit targets far smaller than ICBMs that actually try to evade. ICBMs are BALLISTIC (that's what the B in ICBM stands for). They're sitting ducks for TIEs.

Again, what about other missiles and artillery strikes.

But let's assume they CAN'T. Congratulations! You just wasted Earth's only chance to actually HURT the Imperials (nuclear ICBMs) by using every last one of them making craters in south america while the Imperials are elsewhere thanks to having seen them coming pretty much from launch. And that's IGNORING their CEP means there's a good chance they'll do jack all even if the Imperials stay put.

Yet if the invasion force occupies cities, what are they going to do when missiles come flying their way? Leave and get their cities (and thus their industrial base) destroyed?

Why would they bother?

Are you claiming that they're going to try and take over the world without actually attacking?

[Star Wars 888]

YOu really think they would not anticipate Jamming? Tell me, why would they anticipate jamming in standard battles, but not in this one?

Good point, but that was an off hand remark made by a pilot. In fact, in Star Wars: Death Star they were discussing this. It doesn't say anything about jamming nor does it imply that they took that into account. They were taking the small size into account.

Apparently, it is standard inventory. Or if you want to, a 200m base was able to produce it within a day. Are you now claiming the IMps have no repair capability whatsoever?

Actually, in this scenario they don't. Tie fighters were very dependent on refueling and resupplying. They weren't made to be independent.

Except that the Empire is a genocidal empire that relies on the Tarkin doctrine (which, BTW, seems to fail all the time) and wouldn't do that.

Why not? It is the standard Imperial approach to less civilized worlds, at least seen by Thrawn's colonization program in the UR.

Thrawn is not Vader.

How? The US is pretty much defenseless against TIEs, which could just blow every highway bridge in, say, western USA and voila, the USA crumbles. Take out maritime trade and the same result. There is no way the US can protect its population or logistical equipment.

And you expect them to actually ship anything against an entrenched Imperial Army?

(And before you bring ICBMs up again - these things are huge targets for the IMPs. Their fighter intercept vehicles their own size regularly and you want to give them huge, lumbering missiles with next to no maneuverability to shoot at?

They sit there and wait for the AT-ATs, tie fighters and AT-STs to run out of fuel. Then the 500,000 stormtroopers get pwned by air supremacy.

[Star Wars 888]

I...doubt they'd be able to build and maintain a large lunar colony with the resources of various south american crapholes

At that point i am no longer talking about South America. That strategy works on most of the world once you show that you are not a cruel dictator - but rather a dictator who does not care about daily life and effectively just demands additional tasks (in exchange for military protection against others, which already saves money).
Most countries would be willing to subject to that, especially if you give them some harmless technology (non-military stuff). Resistance at that point would not only be futile, but you don't have much reason to resist either.

Remember tough, lifting is not an issue if the imperials start out with at least some larger shuttles. And they have to in order to transport the AT-ATs.
All you need are air-tight materials, power plants and other building materials. Those should not be too difficult to get, even if you only have South America. Heck, if you settle with South America just trade with the USA and Europe for that stuff once you stop aggressive acts.

A moon base makes you untouchable and is also another nice demonstration of power. And with your lifting capability it's not that expensive either.

The fuck? This is Vader leading the invasion force. When has he ever even pretended to be nice? The imperial population didn't view him as nice, nobody did.

[Batman]

They won't NEED to thanks to there not BEING thousands of missiles and the ones BEING there being completely useless thanks to you arming them with conventional warheads.

Fine. How about cruise missiles and other long range missiles? How about artillery shells?

The launch vehicles die long before GETTING in range thanks to superior technology on the Imperial side. Like, you know, TIE fighters.

You haven't EXPLAINED, you BLITHELY ASSUMED. But even if we assume this to be true, how is the Abrams going to get close enough to shoot? The Imperials have total air superiority and a massive sensor/EW advantage. As long as their supplies last you're never getting anything except MAYBE light infantry close enough to actually try and fight them. Which will then get eaten because while stormtroopers are essentially bulletproof, modern day infantry is NOT.

An AT-ST got destroyed by swinging logs.

And so would a Bradley (and that's being generous, the AT-ST is essentially the Wars equivalent of an HMVV). This disproves the massive sensor advantage for the Imperials how?

Who's to say that the Abrams tank is on the offensive? They could be a defensive force.

If the Imperials are on the offensive why pray tell would they be using AT-STs? AT-AT. One shot. No more Abrams.

Watch the freaking movies dumbass. TIEs can hit targets far smaller than ICBMs that actually try to evade. ICBMs are BALLISTIC (that's what the B in ICBM stands for). They're sitting ducks for TIEs.

Again, what about other missiles and artillery strikes.

Launch vehicle is killed before they ever get in range. Can't kill anything EXCEPT stormtroopers. Thanks to the TIE fighters the Imperials have uncontestable air superiority OVER THE ENTIRE PLANET.

But let's assume they CAN'T. Congratulations! You just wasted Earth's only chance to actually HURT the Imperials (nuclear ICBMs) by using every last one of them making craters in south america while the Imperials are elsewhere thanks to having seen them coming pretty much from launch. And that's IGNORING their CEP means there's a good chance they'll do jack all even if the Imperials stay put.

Yet if the invasion force occupies cities, what are they going to do when missiles come flying their way? Leave and get their cities (and thus their industrial base) destroyed?

This is a trick question, right?

Why would they bother?

Are you claiming that they're going to try and take over the world without actually attacking?

I never claimed they'd try to take over the world to begin with.