Force sub: Rebel Strike Force vs WW1

[DudeGuyMan]

The place: The Imperial shield installation on Endor protecting the DS2.

The substitution: While the installation remains the same as in Return of the Jedi, instead of being protected by a legion of Imperial soldiers, it's protected by a force of equal size drawn from the British military circa 1918.

Instead of Imperial soldiers and stormtroopers, they have British grunts equipped with all the weapons a force of that time period would have. (Think horses and primitive armored cars instead of speeder bikes and walkers.) To be fair, there a few exceptions. Since the Empire wasn't strafing the joint with TIEs or using all the badass ground combat gear that no doubt exists in the EU, the British don't get to use artillery, aircraft, or chemical weapons.

The British forces do have six months while the DS2 is building to prepare the defense of the installation however they like. These preparations, of course, cannot involve any SW technology. If 1918 methods can't do it in less than six months, they can't have it.

The home team: The Rebel strike force possesses all the personnel and equipment it did in the movie. The Ewoks remain their allies. Luke still realizes that Vader is up there on the DS2 sensing him and buggers off before the big battle. Their mission objective remains to capture the backdoor entrance to the installation, plant explosives throughout, and blow it all to hell.

The question: Can the Rebels still pull this off? Or will Han and friends get mortared and machine gunned to death while running through barbed wire? What if we let Luke come along? Assume he can't just rip the shield projector dish down with his mind from miles away and moot the whole post.

[Star Wars 888]

What do the British get in place of AT-STs?

Are the British ambushed like the imperials were?

[Vehrec]

What do the British get in place of AT-STs?

Are the British ambushed like the imperials were?

Probably artillery or early model tanks.

[Bakustra]

Unless Luke can pull off some serious mind-tricking, things don't look too good for the Rebels. Assuming that the British forces are expecting the same attack that the Empire was, then they'll probably forestall matters by mining a wide area around both entrances. They are limited by the forest, though- they lack bulldozers or other heavy equipment to do large-scale clearing. Theoretically, the Rebels could have had minesweeping gear, but we cannot prove or even reasonably intimate that they did, so without that, they essentially end up trying to talk the Ewoks into being living minesweepers, and hoping that they don't attract attention and Vickers fire from the garrison.

If Luke can mind-trick them, then many of the British advantages disappear indoors and they stand a good chance of carving their way through them. Alternatively, Luke could try to sneak in and steal a map of the minefields, but ultimately, they still will be forestalled enough for the Rebel fleet to be destroyed in orbit.

[DudeGuyMan]

What do the British get in place of AT-STs?

Are the British ambushed like the imperials were?

They get the armored cars and tanks of their era. And while they know that there's a Rebellion out there which could theoretically attack the installation they're defending, they don't have any specific advance warning.

I don't expect the armored vehicles to do very well. The terrain isn't good for them, and I'm pretty sure SW rifles would penetrate their armor without too much problem.

They are limited by the forest, though- they lack bulldozers or other heavy equipment to do large-scale clearing.

I have no real idea how fast a bunch of guys from 1918 can cut down trees, but I imagine with six months to work even just guys with axes can clear the vicinity of the entrances to the installation. But yeah, just clear-cutting a giant circle around the entire base is out of the question.

[Stark]

Why wouldn't the rebels just blast the defenders with their shuttle, since the British have no way of retaliating? Why would they go in on foot when they can literally squash the defenders in their plane?

[Agent Sorchus]

Even a minefield is doubtful in its ability to defeat the rebels, because R2 is there and should be able to detect it. The machine guns and portable artillery is the most dangerous, but since the empire didn't seam to have enough stormtroopers to cover the rear entrance with more than a quartet of men I have do not think a like number of british will have enough men either. Probably put up some barbed wire and bugger off. Seriously the rear door to the bunker looks to be able to keep itself safe just by locking it up tight.

[Darksider]

Why are we assuming that the Imperials didn't set up fortifications and clear out a section of the forest because they lack the ingenuity to do so? We saw in ROTS that the predecessors to the Stormtrooper Corps and Imperial army are well aware of how to establish defensive fortifications, since they did so on Kashyyyk. It's possible that Palpatine gave specific orders regarding the defense of the shield generator, since we know he was already tying the hands of his fleet commanders. Many of the issues faced by the Empire were a direct result of the Emperor setting the whole thing up as a grand show to turn Luke to the Dark Side. Why should we assume the British won't face those same issues here?

If they are allowed to use competent tactics and set up fortifications, the British could definitely hold back the rebel strike force and the Ewoks. However, a competent Imperial commander, free from Palpatine's interference, could also have done the same thing.


If the British are also strangled by interference from on high and forbidden from establishing fortifications, the battle goes even worse for them than the Empire, since they're more vulnerable than Stormtroopers, carry less ammunition for weapons with less lethality, and are largely conscripts with minimal training rather than highly trained elite shock troops.

[Srelex]

I thought the area around the shield generator itself was fortified; as the bunker was, well, secret, overt defences would likely attract attention.

[Agent Sorchus]

Why are we assuming that the Imperials didn't set up fortifications and clear out a section of the forest because they lack the ingenuity to do so? We saw in ROTS that the predecessors to the Stormtrooper Corps and Imperial army are well aware of how to establish defensive fortifications, since they did so on Kashyyyk. It's possible that Palpatine gave specific orders regarding the defense of the shield generator, since we know he was already tying the hands of his fleet commanders. Many of the issues faced by the Empire were a direct result of the Emperor setting the whole thing up as a grand show to turn Luke to the Dark Side. Why should we assume the British won't face those same issues here?

If they are allowed to use competent tactics and set up fortifications, the British could definitely hold back the rebel strike force and the Ewoks. However, a competent Imperial commander, free from Palpatine's interference, could also have done the same thing.


If the British are also strangled by interference from on high and forbidden from establishing fortifications, the battle goes even worse for them than the Empire, since they're more vulnerable than Stormtroopers, carry less ammunition for weapons with less lethality, and are largely conscripts with minimal training rather than highly trained elite shock troops.

I do not agree with your idea that Palps interfered with the ground defense. There is no evidence that he wanted the shield to fall and plenty for him expecting his Legion to pull through. Note a Legion appears to be an 8something thousand strong formation. That really isn't that much, especially when you look at the size of the perimeter that the Legion was supposed to hold.

I find it far more likely that the Legion was overworked for the amount of Terrain they were supposed to defend. It is far more likely than Palps wanting to lose his only defense from the Alliance starfighters.

[Star Wars 888]

The British could set up barbed wire, but those would get blown to bits by blaster rifles or grenades. Mines might be effective, but there's also a problem with that; how would the British get out? Surely they'd need to have a way to get out to do work, to get supplies or as an escape route. IDK if the Rebels would have minesweapers or anything else like that with them though.

[Bakustra]

The British could set up barbed wire, but those would get blown to bits by blaster rifles or grenades. Mines might be effective, but there's also a problem with that; how would the British get out? Surely they'd need to have a way to get out to do work, to get supplies or as an escape route. IDK if the Rebels would have minesweapers or anything else like that with them though.

They can just map where they place mines and hand them out to anybody who has to go through the minefields to... somewhere. They get supplied from orbit, too, so there's no particular need to go out in the forest for R&R.

The problem with using blasters to clear barbed wire is that blasters are not actually cutting tools, so they would just blow a small hole. While they could cut the wire, with Luke's lightsaber if nothing else, the point is that it slows them down.

Now, what's interesting that the bunker itself, according to the Inside the Worlds, is more than a mile from the main dish, which might explain the relatively small force available there. Alternatively, the Ewoks were able to communicate knowledge of where the weakest point in the defense was ("those armor-dudes hit their heads more than the others. One of them killed himself accidentally with his breakfast. Really, our catapults will be an act of mercy for the poor things.") rather than a single back door, but whatever. The British will have a relatively sparse and wide area to cover, with few already-established strongpoints.

[Stark]

Strongpoints destroyed when the rebels land their shuttle on them? Luckily the shuttle even has down-angled guns forgetter strafing defenceless cavemen.

Hilariously if the shuttle was an assault craft they could probably land it right in front of the door and blast it open at leisure from the safety of the passenger compartment.

[DudeGuyMan]

Act of thread prohibits them from using the shuttle to attack. Ho ho very clever, but let's stay within the obvious intent of the thread.

Act of thread is also the only thing keeping the British from mustard gassing everything in sight and turning the whole thread into one big "lol rebels don't have NBC gear" punchline. Which is cool and all, but what was stopping the Empire?

[Stark]

You mean the obvious STUPID intent of the thread? They can't even GET to the surface without a vehicle capable of annihilating and WW1 force, so... what's your point? They leave it there and get butchered by the magical British Army to make you look clever?

Turns out your stupid attempt to say 'hurf durf SW < WW1 lolz' is stupid.

[DudeGuyMan]

Oh god, some little cumstain comes into the thread, thinks up some off-the-wall tactic that clearly violates the spirit of the scenario, and then shits his panties in fury when I don't immediately declare him winner of the thread and king of the internet.

Of course even then they had better use that shuttle to go shoot the shield generator and then fly the fuck away, and not to breach the bunker and attempt to engage in battle. Because if the gloves are off, they're going to blow open that door, pile out of their shuttle, and then fucking choke to death on chlorine gas.

They leave it there and get butchered by the magical British Army to make you look clever?

Concession accepted.

Turns out your stupid attempt to say 'hurf durf SW < WW1 lolz' is stupid.

Too bad you couldn't refute it.

[Darksider]

Of course even then they had better use that shuttle to go shoot the shield generator and then fly the fuck away, and not to breach the bunker and attempt to engage in battle. Because if the gloves are off, they're going to blow open that door, pile out of their shuttle, and then fucking choke to death on chlorine gas.

And the Rebels don't know how to use gas masks, why exactly?

[Stark]

Oh god, some little cumstain comes into the thread, thinks up some off-the-wall tactic that clearly violates the spirit of the scenario, and then shits his panties in fury when I don't immediately declare him winner of the thread and king of the internet.

Of course even then they had better use that shuttle to go shoot the shield generator and then fly the fuck away, and not to breach the bunker and attempt to engage in battle. Because if the gloves are off, they're going to blow open that door, pile out of their shuttle, and then fucking choke to death on chlorine gas.

Except the actual fucking generator is fortified, shitbird. The scenario only places the British at the back door, and they have no defence against something the rebels literally cannot have. Too bad you're too busy riding your hobby horse I guess.

I like how I'm the sad nerd, when you're the one who makes a retarded scenario to hurf durf all over the crappy ground forces of SW.

Concession accepted.

Hey get this - if I put you in a room with a snail and NO OXYGEN, the snail wins through slower biology! OMG YOU SO WEEK!

Too bad you couldn't refute it.

Except with the whole 'blast with their spaceship and laugh at cavemen' thing I guess? They parked it in ROTJ because it'd be destroyed or detected; but once they meet the Ewoks and see the back door defended by tinhat-wearing guys sitting with their belt-fed machineguns they're just going to go and get it.

Oops you're a moron.

[Darth Hoth]

The British could set up barbed wire, but those would get blown to bits by blaster rifles or grenades. Mines might be effective, but there's also a problem with that; how would the British get out? Surely they'd need to have a way to get out to do work, to get supplies or as an escape route. IDK if the Rebels would have minesweapers or anything else like that with them though.

If we assume that Luke can detect the mines with the Force, or that Artoo can point them out to him, triggering them by telekinesis should not be very difficult. If they just want them out of the way quickly.

EU Jedi would have a funnier time: screwing around with the mines so that they do not explode when Rebels step on them, but only when the WWI Britishers do. At this point in his career, though, I do not think Luke can do that level of precision work.

And the Rebels don't know how to use gas masks, why exactly?

The OP assumes that the Rebels do not have anything "they did not have in the movies". This means that obviously they cannot have brought ABC protection gear because we did not see it on-screen, even if they use it in the EU.

[Star Wars 888]

ROTJ Luke isn't as powerful as the uber late EU Luke, and since when can R2D2 detect mines?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Oh god, some little cumstain comes into the thread, thinks up some off-the-wall tactic that clearly violates the spirit of the scenario, and then shits his panties in fury when I don't immediately declare him winner of the thread and king of the internet.

Hey, it's Stark and he's just going through the motions. If he didn't do that people would be thinking that he's sick or got assimilated by Facebook like DW or something.

The actual shuttle problem is easy to fix, though: let's just amend the thread so that the airspace around the dish is still watched by Imperials with real SW tech ray guns. So the rebels can't use the shuttle or the Imperials would blast them out of the sky.

[Darksider]

The OP assumes that the Rebels do not have anything "they did not have in the movies". This means that obviously they cannot have brought ABC protection gear because we did not see it on-screen, even if they use it in the EU.

Do we know what kind of kit Rebel SpecForce troopers usually carry? SW NBC protection can be pretty small judging by the KOTOR-era breath masks and those miniature oxygen things Jedi can carry in their robes. If there's no indication that Rebel SpecForce troopers carry NBC gear as standard i'll concede the point.

[Balrog]

This is very silly. If the British turn the area around the secret back door into a killing field, that pretty much negates it being, you know, a secret back door. Nor would I imagine Palpatine like it very much; remember that Endor is suppose to be a giant trap for Luke and the Rebellion (which itself is pretty silly, but beyond the scope of this discussion). Tipping the Rebels off to the fact that you know they're coming defeats the whole purpose.

And one more pet peeve: the Ewoks didn't defeat an entire Stormtrooper legion. There were some forty guys with light scouting vehicles in the clearing when the captured Rebels came out. That's a company-sized force; the rest of the Legion (including their heavy armor like AT-ATs) were clearly not involved. That doesn't excuse some of the tactical blunders they made, but when you have so few soldiers against that many pissed-off furry carnivorous teddy bears, backed up by some elaborate traps, it's hardly a fair fight.

But yeah, the Rebels go grab their shuttle, take off and strafe the British whilst laughing their asses off. At least until the OP gets fixed, and even then I'm sure they can figure out a way to salvage the weapons off it and blast the British from range.

[Aaron]

Do we know what kind of kit Rebel SpecForce troopers usually carry? SW NBC protection can be pretty small judging by the KOTOR-era breath masks and those miniature oxygen things Jedi can carry in their robes. If there's no indication that Rebel SpecForce troopers carry NBC gear as standard i'll concede the point.

Thats not NBC protection by any stretch of the imagination. WWI gases are blister agents, at minimum your going to need something that covers the whole face. Or the Rebels are going to go blind.

[Darth Hoth]

Do we know what kind of kit Rebel SpecForce troopers usually carry? SW NBC protection can be pretty small judging by the KOTOR-era breath masks and those miniature oxygen things Jedi can carry in their robes. If there's no indication that Rebel SpecForce troopers carry NBC gear as standard i'll concede the point.

It might be listed in the SpecForces sourcebook, but unfortunately, that was one WEG book I was never able to find at a reasonable price.

Various depictions in comics and novels show Rebel special forces with heavy armour and/or ABC gear (up to Stormtrooper-equivalent, vacuum-resistant armour). It is not, however, indicated in the film (although a possibility, and an appropriate sourcebook might indicate it) that the troopers brought ABC gear with them on Endor.