The Legacy of the Force era galaxy vs the Empire in a war

[Star Wars 888]

I see you're not going to bother to provide the kind of data that would make this worthless scenario interesting or informative to anyone. Thanks for wasting people's time.

WTF are you saying? Do you care to actually contribute something to the thread?

The level of wank and stupidity implicit in this statement is astonishing.

The lack of any proof, rebuttal or explanation in your statement is even more so.

[Ghost Rider]

I see you're not going to bother to provide the kind of data that would make this worthless scenario interesting or informative to anyone. Thanks for wasting people's time.

WTF are you saying? Do you care to actually contribute something to the thread?

Okay, I'll translate his strange language into something you can understand.

WTF does any of that shit you wrote means? Did you read it or just masturbate and divined said meaning while pressing submit.

Daala's maw irregular fleet had powerful prototype weapons,

So?

but the fact that the ships were imperial era was stated to be a negative thing in a battle.

How?

Oh, and GA troops and other lotf soldiers can actually hit guys unlike imperial stormtroopers.

Proof they hit with a higher percentile?

Luke by lotf is the most powerful Force user in SW history minus beings like Zonama Sekot.

This matters how?

A bunch stormtrooper guard would not be able to stop him. Imperial star destroyers would get fucked up by Jedi in stealth x's.

Proof?

The level of wank and stupidity implicit in this statement is astonishing.

The lack of any proof, rebuttal or explanation in your statement is even more so.

Understand this, fucktard, he is not making the goddamn assertion. You are. So put up or shut up.

[Star Wars 888]

Okay, I'll translate his strange language into something you can understand.

WTF does any of that shit you wrote means? Did you read it or just masturbate and divined said meaning while pressing submit.

Which has absolutely no supporting evidence or proof (well, you do)

So?

Keep on reading.

How?

They were stated to be outdated. This supports my assertion that OT era tech was inferior to LOTF era tech.

Proof they hit with a higher percentile?

That was a half joke, but if you actually want an example, 7 GA security soldiers took down a Jedi Knight. Jaina commented that LOTF era stormtroopers "were not her mother's stormtroopers" in that they could actually hit things.

This matters how?

Somebody was questioning whether or not Luke was more powerful than Sidious, and Luke could assassinate Sidious. Once Sidious falls, his Empire collapses like it did after ROTJ.

12 Jedi Masters (aka the New Jedi Council) and 50 Jedi Knights supported by the Millennium Falcon easily took control of the Anakin Solo in a matter of minutes, even when said ship had troops that were the elite of the elite (since they were guarding the moffs) They can do that to a flagship, take control of said ship, and keep on doing that to each imperial fleet.

Proof?

Jedi in Stealth X's absolutely pwned a Confederation fleet that was actually more advanced than OT era fleets.

Stealth X's are invisible to sensors. They're black, so in space they'd be almost impossible to see (and some source suggest that they can turn invisible as well). Shadow bombs are activated by the Force and can't be tracked by sensors. Jedi can communicate with the Force, which can't be tracked by sensors.

Basically, Jedi in Stealth X's could absolutely decimate imperial ships and the latter wouldn't be able to do much to stop that.

Understand this, fucktard, he is not making the goddamn assertion. You are. So put up or shut up.

Except that he made no attempt to explain how my proof was flawed.

[fractalsponge1]

WTF are you saying? Do you care to actually contribute something to the thread?

Here it is again, moron: we don't even have a clue what forces both sides are bringing to the comparison, or indeed, where one side is located. Is the entire ROTJ Imperial military being used? How are the ROTJ forces coming to the LOTF galaxy? 6 months by hyperdrive or they just magically materialize in the LOTF galaxy? How are they going to be supplied? Do they have a logistical lifeline back to the ROTJ galaxy at all?

From several posts ago, which you haven't bother to address at all:

Is it just me, or is there insufficient info in the OP to judge this? What kind of supplies does the invading fleet carry? Is the invasion carried out by everything the ROTJ galaxy has, or just a portion of the forces involved? 6 months at maximum speed implies a great distance. Supplying the entire Imperial Navy over that distance would be a logistical nightmare, unless it can quickly capture and re-use infrastructure. Use only a portion of the fleet and the comparison changes. Is it a conquer everything sort of attack or just to defeat the mobile forces of the Legacy galaxy?

Instead of actually fleshing out the vs in the op, you're spouting useless drivel like how star destroyers will get "fucked up by Jedi in stealth x's." Just how are they going to do that? How are they going to breach the shielding? Even if they did, how are they going to breach the armor? Are they going to do it 25000 times (or more, for each ISD-scale ship the Imperial Navy has)? Quantify "shadow bombs." Enough to breach shielding proof against teraton-level turbolasers, or capital-scale armor?

Somebody was questioning whether or not Luke was more powerful than Sidious, and Luke could assassinate Sidious. Once Sidious falls, his Empire collapses like it did after ROTJ.

We don't even know how this vs is going to be arranged... will it take 6 months by hyperdrive to get to the ROTJ galaxy from the LOTF galaxy? If so, sure, send Skywalker to kill Palpatine. By the time he even gets there, the war in the LOTF could be decided already.

12 Jedi Masters (aka the New Jedi Council) and 50 Jedi Knights supported by the Millennium Falcon easily took control of the Anakin Solo in a matter of minutes, even when said ship had troops that were the elite of the elite (since they were guarding the moffs) They can do that to a flagship, take control of said ship, and keep on doing that to each imperial fleet.

Are they going to do this 25,000 times for every ISD-sized ship the ROTJ empire could conceivably bring (again, no idea how many are going to be involved)?

And, re: the argument about ROTJ military technology being fundamentally inferior:
Are you going to provide any evidence other than vague un-cited and out-of-context claims of "it sucks, lol!"?

Finally, the burden of providing evidence to back an assertion, proof, even, is not the same as typing the equivalent of "because I said so." Try typing with both hands in the future and you might get something onto the page that people might actually want to see.

[Star Wars 888]

WTF are you saying? Do you care to actually contribute something to the thread?

Here it is again, moron: we don't even have a clue what forces both sides are bringing to the comparison, or indeed, where one side is located. Is the entire ROTJ Imperial military being used? How are the ROTJ forces coming to the LOTF galaxy? 6 months by hyperdrive or they just magically materialize in the LOTF galaxy? How are they going to be supplied? Do they have a logistical lifeline back to the ROTJ galaxy at all?

The ROTJ forces are coming by hyperdrive, but to be fair let's say that they have enough reserves to somehow last them that long and far. I can understand confusion on the latter, but the former is quite obvious when I posted in the OP that it takes them 6 months to get there.

No, they do not that any logistical lifeline back to the ROTJ galaxy, or if they do, it would be highly impractical since it would take 6 months for any supplies to come.

From several posts ago, which you haven't bother to address at all:

Above I addressed some of it, but ok:

Instead of actually fleshing out the vs in the op, you're spouting useless drivel like how star destroyers will get "fucked up by Jedi in stealth x's." Just how are they going to do that? How are they going to breach the shielding? Even if they did, how are they going to breach the armor? Are they going to do it 25000 times (or more, for each ISD-scale ship the Imperial Navy has)? Quantify "shadow bombs." Enough to breach shielding proof against teraton-level turbolasers, or capital-scale armor?

In a matter of seconds numerous Confederation ships were disabled by Stealth X attacks. Many of those ships were capital ships. In fact, one type was calculated to be twice the threat of an imperial 2 class star destroyer.

Besides, who's to say that they need to attack during a battle? They can attack when the star destroyers' shields are down due to not expecting a fight. Stealth X's have advanced stealth systems, so the star destroyers won't detect attack until they actually do get attacked.

We don't even know how this vs is going to be arranged... will it take 6 months by hyperdrive to get to the ROTJ galaxy from the LOTF galaxy? If so, sure, send Skywalker to kill Palpatine. By the time he even gets there, the war in the LOTF could be decided already.

If Sidious comes along, he'd be a big target for assassination, especially if by "LOTF era" (I'll admit that I wasn't specific enough) they get Centerpoint Station.

If Sidious doesn't come along, then whatever commander he put in charge would be even easier to take out.

Are they going to do this 25,000 times for every ISD-sized ship the ROTJ empire could conceivably bring (again, no idea how many are going to be involved)?

Maybe, or maybe simply the important ones (such as the flagships). Or they could do this to the invasion force's supply ships.

And, re: the argument about ROTJ military technology being fundamentally inferior:
Are you going to provide any evidence other than vague un-cited and out-of-context claims of "it sucks, lol!"?

Some new Confederation ships were stated to be twice as powerful as an imperial 2 class star destroyer.
There are numerous quotes saying OT era ships as outdated.
There are some quotes saying CW and OT era ships as "ancient hardware" and "a flying junkyard".
There are technological upgrades that the OT did not have, such as long range turbolasers and class 0.4 hyperdrive.
In terms of ground combat, many OT era vehicles were being modified; AT-ATs were upgraded to have light turbolasers and were used by numerous factions including the Galactic Alliance.

Finally, the burden of providing evidence to back an assertion, proof, even, is not the same as typing the equivalent of "because I said so." Try typing with both hands in the future and you might get something onto the page that people might actually want to see.

I did provide evidence, but your ranting post did not. You finally did here.

[fractalsponge1]

The ROTJ forces are coming by hyperdrive, but to be fair let's say that they have enough reserves to somehow last them that long and far. I can understand confusion on the latter, but the former is quite obvious when I posted in the OP that it takes them 6 months to get there.

No, they do not that any logistical lifeline back to the ROTJ galaxy, or if they do, it would be highly impractical since it would take 6 months for any supplies to come.

So we still don't know "how many ships" the ROTJ Empire is committing after two pages of posts?

OK, so it's dependent on how quickly the Empire can secure enough supplies to sustain themselves. Fuel especially. Of course, if the numbers are imbalanced enough, they can just take the whole fleet successively into major naval bases, destroy the protecting forces, and load their replenishment ships from local stocks. There will likely be high attrition over time as the force takes damage, unless they can seize enough infrastructure to do repairs. Of course, not knowing how many ships they have it'll be hard to say.

In a matter of seconds numerous Confederation ships were disabled by Stealth X attacks. Many of those ships were capital ships. In fact, one type was calculated to be twice the threat of an imperial 2 class star destroyer.

Besides, who's to say that they need to attack during a battle? They can attack when the star destroyers' shields are down due to not expecting a fight. Stealth X's have advanced stealth systems, so the star destroyers won't detect attack until they actually do get attacked.

So they'll need to find the fleet, find the flagship, and then they board. How many times do you think they can do this, especially after the first time and the surprise factor is lost? And how much good is it going to do in defense, if the enemy has the initiative and chooses the point of attack? How did the "disabling" even work? Just attacking the bridge doesn't help given that there are multiple control points.

they get Centerpoint Station.

Way to read your own OP. No superweapons. Or does the ROTJ Empire bring a completed DS2?

If Sidious doesn't come along, then whatever commander he put in charge would be even easier to take out.

Then the Empire wouldn't fall apart due to political concerns - there's a hierarchy of officers that will be there too, unless you have some stupid notion there will be only one admiral in charge of a galactic war.

Maybe, or maybe simply the important ones (such as the flagships). Or they could do this to the invasion force's supply ships.

So they'll just do it one at a time eh? Of course we don't know how many ships that would even be...

Some new Confederation ships were stated to be twice as powerful as an imperial 2 class star destroyer.

And an Executor is over a hundred times more powerful. What's your point?

There are numerous quotes saying OT era ships as outdated.

Just because you say so? Provide some in context quotes.

There are some quotes saying CW and OT era ships as "ancient hardware" and "a flying junkyard".

This of course can have nothing to do with poor maintenance over time.

There are technological upgrades that the OT did not have, such as long range turbolasers and class 0.4 hyperdrive.

I've already dealt with the possibilities for long range turbolasers being not that novel or necessarily useful. And 0.4 hyperdrive is a pointless gimmick unless it is widely fitted. Going from a prototype starfighter drive to something that retrofits numerous capital ships or even numerous combat starfighters isn't trivial.

In terms of ground combat, many OT era vehicles were being modified; AT-ATs were upgraded to have light turbolasers and were used by numerous factions including the Galactic Alliance.

So what? Are light turbolasers new? No. SPHA-Ts mounted what might have been heavy turbolasers on a ground chassis even in the clone wars. Incremental modifications using existing technologies on existing platforms is not the same thing as a fundamental technological edge.

Finally, the burden of providing evidence to back an assertion, proof, even, is not the same as typing the equivalent of "because I said so." Try typing with both hands in the future and you might get something onto the page that people might actually want to see.

I did provide evidence, but your ranting post did not. You finally did here.

Oh, I see the problem. You don't actually understand evidence. It's not the presence of some witty comeback or reaching some threshold character length of reply. Figure it out and then post. You might sound more intelligent then.

[Star Wars 888]

So we still don't know "how many ships" the ROTJ Empire is committing after two pages of posts?

They can commit as many ships as they can and want to.

OK, so it's dependent on how quickly the Empire can secure enough supplies to sustain themselves. Fuel especially. Of course, if the numbers are imbalanced enough, they can just take the whole fleet successively into major naval bases, destroy the protecting forces, and load their replenishment ships from local stocks. There will likely be high attrition over time as the force takes damage, unless they can seize enough infrastructure to do repairs. Of course, not knowing how many ships they have it'll be hard to say.

Well possibly. They have a numerical advantage (well, in space).

So they'll need to find the fleet, find the flagship, and then they board. How many times do you think they can do this, especially after the first time and the surprise factor is lost? And how much good is it going to do in defense, if the enemy has the initiative and chooses the point of attack? How did the "disabling" even work? Just attacking the bridge doesn't help given that there are multiple control points.

By disable they pretty much damaged the ships so badly that they could barely function.

Way to read your own OP. No superweapons. Or does the ROTJ Empire bring a completed DS2?

Oops. Although about your DS2 idea, the NJO would have little difficulty destroying it again. Lando did it, so LOTF Luke in a stealth x can do it with even more ease than Lando did.

Then the Empire wouldn't fall apart due to political concerns - there's a hierarchy of officers that will be there too, unless you have some stupid notion there will be only one admiral in charge of a galactic war.

And those could be assassinated too.

So they'll just do it one at a time eh? Of course we don't know how many ships that would even be...

25,000 at the most.

And an Executor is over a hundred times more powerful. What's your point?

Except that the Executor was a flagship super star destroyer that wasn't mass produced.

Just because you say so? Provide some in context quotes.

Daala and Pellaeon were talking about Daala's maw irregular fleet, and they said that although it was outdated, its unique and powerful new weapons would make up for it.

This of course can have nothing to do with poor maintenance over time.

Caedus, who would have no way of knowing whether or not they had been properly maintained, said it.

I've already dealt with the possibilities for long range turbolasers being not that novel or necessarily useful. And 0.4 hyperdrive is a pointless gimmick unless it is widely fitted. Going from a prototype starfighter drive to something that retrofits numerous capital ships or even numerous combat starfighters isn't trivial.

Well, they weren't only prototypes. Those knew mando ships are numerous enough to make a difference in this scenario.

So what? Are light turbolasers new? No. SPHA-Ts mounted what might have been heavy turbolasers on a ground chassis even in the clone wars. Incremental modifications using existing technologies on existing platforms is not the same thing as a fundamental technological edge.

Then why didn't AT-ATs have them before? Maybe they weren't able to do that before.

Besides, many OT era ships were being phased out by new tech. Some say that this could be due to political or doctronal changes, such as wanting to look nicer and more humane than the old Empire, but in descriptions of the new ships no such motivation was provided. The motivations involved more advanced shielding and such, better agility, etc.

For example, starhunters, an upgrade of tie interceptors. They were specifically stated to be more powerful than tie interceptors.

Oh, I see the problem. You don't actually understand evidence. It's not the presence of some witty comeback or reaching some threshold character length of reply. Figure it out and then post. You might sound more intelligent then.

*sigh* Except that the post that we're referring to didn't have evidence in it that it could have had.

[fractalsponge1]

They can commit as many ships as they can and want to.

So conceivably the whole Imperial fleet? Even half would mean at least 12000 ISD-equivalents, plus hundreds of thousands of lesser combatants and an unknown number of even larger ships.

Well possibly. They have a numerical advantage (well, in space).

So they could have local superiority sufficient to take the LOTF forces apart piecemeal? If the GA fleet can be measured in hundreds of destroyer equivalents, even after 6 months of buildup there would be a huge disparity, especially if the Empire targets key systems sequentially.

Oops. Although about your DS2 idea, the NJO would have little difficulty destroying it again. Lando did it, so LOTF Luke in a stealth x can do it with even more ease than Lando did.

Even if it were complete, without the freighter-sized hole to the the incomplete main reactor chamber to fly through? Give me a break.

And those could be assassinated too.

Yup, can totally win a galactic war by special operations alone. What's to stop the Empire saying - "if you do this again, we will start to BDZ random worlds loyal to the GA" after the first time it happened? Would the NJO follow through? Again, you'd still need to find the fleet to try any of this in the first place.

25,000 at the most.

I'm sure the Empire will gladly leave its ships totally immobile in an easily accessible and well advertised spot, and not, you know, use it to destroy the LOTF galaxy's fleet assets in battle and take key worlds. And I'm sure that the NJO can board and disable a significant fraction of these ships, because they have teh F0RCE!111!!!1

Except that the Executor was a flagship super star destroyer that wasn't mass produced.

Way to totally miss the point. You brought up a 2xISD ship as an example of superior tech. Of course, saying the LOTF galaxy can build a ship twice as powerful as an ISD is meaningless without saying how big it is. Big effing deal if they can build a ship twice as powerful if they had twice the tonnage and resources to work with. It'd be one thing to say it was 10 times smaller and had the same power generating capacity and military characteristics; that might indicate greatly improved technology.

Daala and Pellaeon were talking about Daala's maw irregular fleet, and they said that although it was outdated, its unique and powerful new weapons would make up for it.

How about you give the actual section, and what book it was in, since your ability to package evidence is abysmal?

You realize that this fleet was using very rare devices developed during the Galactic Civil War by the ROTJ galaxy? Totally superior tech in LOTF, right.

Caedus, who would have no way of knowing whether or not they had been properly maintained, said it.

So this is worthless.

Well, they weren't only prototypes. Those knew mando ships are numerous enough to make a difference in this scenario.

Because you say so. How many fighters with MT/GT warheads will it take to destroy a single shielded ISD rated to take TT firepower? Hundreds, thousands? And if only the hyperdrive is improved, then they'd just get to the site of a major fleet action to be largely irrelevant faster. Unless they can refit capital ships to use them, then it doesn't help overall strategic reaction time. And in any event, a slightly faster or slower hyperdrive isn't indicative of total value; class-1 equipped Victories were replaced by class-2 equipped ISDs.

So what? Are light turbolasers new? No. SPHA-Ts mounted what might have been heavy turbolasers on a ground chassis even in the clone wars. Incremental modifications using existing technologies on existing platforms is not the same thing as a fundamental technological edge.

Then why didn't AT-ATs have them before? Maybe they weren't able to do that before.

Seriously?

Even during the Clone Wars, the technology existed to mount large turbolaser guns on ground vehicles. Given that, you're going to say that they couldn't mount a much smaller gun on a ground vehicle? And then use that as evidence of fundamentally superior technology? O.o

Besides, many OT era ships were being phased out by new tech. Some say that this could be due to political or doctronal changes, such as wanting to look nicer and more humane than the old Empire, but in descriptions of the new ships no such motivation was provided. The motivations involved more advanced shielding and such, better agility, etc.

For example, starhunters, an upgrade of tie interceptors. They were specifically stated to be more powerful than tie interceptors.

*Facepalm* OK, let's see if you can follow this:
Just because the LOTF galaxy replaces an ROTJ-era Component1 with a more capable LOTF-era Component2, it does not follow that the ROTJ galaxy's technology is fundamentally inferior when it can build the equivalent of Component2 anyway. Let's see: shielded, hyperdrive capable fighters with warheads and good acceleration? TIE Defender? TIE-Avenger? X-Wing? A-Wing?

*sigh* Except that the post that we're referring to didn't have evidence in it that it could have had.

Very funny. Let's look at the sequence again:

Finally, the burden of providing evidence to back an assertion, proof, even, is not the same as typing the equivalent of "because I said so." Try typing with both hands in the future and you might get something onto the page that people might actually want to see.

I did provide evidence, but your ranting post did not. You finally did here.

Excuse me for thinking you might not know what the hell you're talking about, given you snipped that as an example of providing evidence, when I was just making fun of you. Get a clue.

[Star Wars 888]

So conceivably the whole Imperial fleet? Even half would mean at least 12000 ISD-equivalents, plus hundreds of thousands of lesser combatants and an unknown number of even larger ships.

Sure

So they could have local superiority sufficient to take the LOTF forces apart piecemeal? If the GA fleet can be measured in hundreds of destroyer equivalents, even after 6 months of buildup there would be a huge disparity, especially if the Empire targets key systems sequentially.

Yet they would have a limited ground force to occupy planets.

Even if it were complete, without the freighter-sized hole to the the incomplete main reactor chamber to fly through? Give me a break.

I would not be that suprised if they still had that hole after it was complete.

Btw, centerpoint station is far more powerful than the death star 2 by several orders of magnitude.

Yup, can totally win a galactic war by special operations alone. What's to stop the Empire saying - "if you do this again, we will start to BDZ random worlds loyal to the GA" after the
first time it happened? Would the NJO follow through? Again, you'd still need to find the
fleet to try any of this in the first place.

Since when did I say that they would defeat the invasion force using only that? It could be a contributing factor.

I'm sure the Empire will gladly leave its ships totally immobile in an easily accessible and well advertised spot, and not, you know, use it to destroy the LOTF galaxy's fleet assets in
battle and take key worlds. And I'm sure that the NJO can board and disable a significant
fraction of these ships, because they have teh F0RCE!111!!!1

[/quote]

Actually, much of your sarcastic statements are correct. 12 Jedi Masters and 50 Jedi Knights took over the Anakin Solo in a matter of minutes, even when the ship had GAG troops and stormtroopers that were stated to be more elite than typical stormtroopers.

Oops, deleted a quote and using iPod touch can't undo, bug iirc that Confederation ship was similar in size to a star destroyer from the ot, twice as powerful and yet GA ships were able to fight it.

Daala and Pellaeon were talking about Daala's maw irregular fleet, and they said that
although it was outdated, its unique and powerful new weapons would make up for it.

How about you give the actual section, and what book it was in, since your ability to
package evidence is abysmal?

You realize that this fleet was using very rare devices developed during the Galactic Civil
War by the ROTJ galaxy? Totally superior tech in LOTF, right.

[/quote]

at night and iPod touch hard to type with, will tomorrow

but those weapons only prototype during ot, complete by lotf

So this is worthless.

since he did nit know maintenence level, he must have been analyzing based on tech level.

Because you say so. How many fighters with MT/GT warheads will it take to destroy a single
shielded ISD rated to take TT firepower? Hundreds, thousands? And if only the hyperdrive is
improved, then they'd just get to the site of a major fleet action to be largely irrelevant
faster. Unless they can refit capital ships to use them, then it doesn't help overall strategic
reaction time. And in any event, a slightly faster or slower hyperdrive isn't indicative of total
value; class-1 equipped Victories were replaced by class-2 equipped ISDs.

stealth xs disabled star destroyers in a matter of seconds, so fighters can indeed damage star destroyers (sorry iPod touch makes typing hard)

So what? Are light turbolasers new? No. SPHA-Ts mounted what
might have been heavy turbolasers on a ground chassis even in the clone wars.
Incremental modifications using existing technologies on existing platforms is not the same
thing as a fundamental technological edge.

those were possibly larger than at ats and more of the vehicle would be used for that, at at needed to carry troops

Seriously?

Even during the Clone Wars, the technology existed to mount large turbolaser guns on
ground vehicles. Given that, you're going to say that they couldn't mount a much smaller
gun on a ground vehicle? And then use that as evidence of fundamentally superior
technology? O.o

see above

*Facepalm* OK, let's see if you can follow this:
Just because the LOTF galaxy replaces an ROTJ-era Component1 with a more capable LOTF-era Component2, it does not follow that the ROTJ galaxy's technology is fundamentally inferior when it can build the equivalent of Component2 anyway. Let's see: shielded,
hyperdrive capable fighters with warheads and good acceleration? TIE Defender? TIE-
Avenger? X-Wing? A-Wing?

starhunters mean that primary starfighters upgraded and far more powerful, big advantage (again iPod touch hard to type on it) even x wings were being upgraded and more powerful by lotf era. Almost all ot ships upgraded in some way by lotf

[Patroklos]

Star Wars 888,

You need to accept that a far more likely explaination for the change in starship characteristics is the mission profile each entity was procuring ships to meet. Even in our time and world, with many NATO nations having relatively the same level of tech, warship designs differ dramatically.

Did the GA not just inheret a fleet optimized to destroy the Vong, a enemy of compeletley different than the an OT era fleet?

I already mentioned the drastically inferior economic situation the GA has to deal with, which will also dramatically affect warship design and procurement.

[Star Wars 888]

Star Wars 888,

You need to accept that a far more likely explaination for the change in starship characteristics is the mission profile each entity was procuring ships to meet. Even in our time and world, with many NATO nations having relatively the same level of tech, warship designs differ dramatically.

Except that it was stated in multiple novels that OT tech was outdated by the LOTF era. Note that a lot of the quotes were being said in the context of a military situation, not politics or style or something like that.

Did the GA not just inheret a fleet optimized to destroy the Vong, a enemy of compeletley different than the an OT era fleet?

Maybe during the YV war, but how will their fleets be different to face the Vong? Do the Vong have some special weakness that makes them different? Not in this case.

I already mentioned the drastically inferior economic situation the GA has to deal with, which will also dramatically affect warship design and procurement.

The Galactic Alliance still had superior technology to the OT era Empire. They had new ships that the Empire didn't have, almost every old ship, including starfighters such as tie fighters and x wings, were either replaced or upgraded with something stated to be better in some significant way, and they had technology that the Empire didn't have.

Also, the Galactic Alliance would in this scenario have allies in the form of the New Jedi Order, Imperial Remnant, etc.

[Darth Hoth]

Just stepping in to take objection to that. In Dark Empire, Luke beat Wankatine in a duel and then shut him out of controlling his powers (Admittedly with Leia and a foetus' help to shut him down) and that was that. No more force powers for Palpy. The whole point of Dark Empire is that it's Luke coming into full manhood (or at least, Jedi Mastery) where he can compete with Palpatine successfully. That's what makes it better than just random crap about Palpy coming back to life and ripping apart fleets with his mighty power. There is no reason to think that a confrontation between an older, more experienced Grand Master Luke Skywalker and younger, less knowledgeable Palpatine wouldn't result in Palpatine getting his clock cleaned.

Palpatine lasted mere seconds against Skywalker, and that was when Palpatine was in a healthy body, let alone a geriatric one.

The young Palpatine clone defeated Luke in standard lightsabre combat moments after popping out of his arti-womb, before he was at peak strength. Then, Luke (with passive assistance from Leia and unborn Baby Anakin) defeated him in similar combat an unspecified period of time later, but not too long afterwards. He cut off his hand, even.

That they managed to sabotage the Force Storm was because he overstretched his abilities; he gambled on a Storm, and then lost control over it when the trio blocked him. Having the hand cut off probably did not help his concentration either.

In other words, trained Jedi Master Luke's record against him was, at best, fifty-fifty. And that assumes that Palpatine is stupid enough to meet him face to face. (Which is, granted, not a huge assumption.) So, while taking into account that people will act "in character", the field might be more even than I initially implied, but I disagree that Palpatine will be a walk-over for Luke and/or any of his students (most of which are not anywhere near as powerful as either of the two, or even Leia's high-end feats in the DE comic).

And the main point remains that the Jedi Commando wankers will cheerfully use the New Jedi Order while presuming that the Imperial Force-users of their various orders do not exist. That was what I took issue with originally.

[Star Wars 888]

Just stepping in to take objection to that. In Dark Empire, Luke beat Wankatine in a duel and then shut him out of controlling his powers (Admittedly with Leia and a foetus' help to shut him down) and that was that. No more force powers for Palpy. The whole point of Dark Empire is that it's Luke coming into full manhood (or at least, Jedi Mastery) where he can compete with Palpatine successfully. That's what makes it better than just random crap about Palpy coming back to life and ripping apart fleets with his mighty power. There is no reason to think that a confrontation between an older, more experienced Grand Master Luke Skywalker and younger, less knowledgeable Palpatine wouldn't result in Palpatine getting his clock cleaned.

Palpatine lasted mere seconds against Skywalker, and that was when Palpatine was in a healthy body, let alone a geriatric one.

The young Palpatine clone defeated Luke in standard lightsabre combat moments after popping out of his arti-womb, before he was at peak strength. Then, Luke (with passive assistance from Leia and unborn Baby Anakin) defeated him in similar combat an unspecified period of time later, but not too long afterwards. He cut off his hand, even.

That they managed to sabotage the Force Storm was because he overstretched his abilities; he gambled on a Storm, and then lost control over it when the trio blocked him. Having the hand cut off probably did not help his concentration either.

In other words, trained Jedi Master Luke's record against him was, at best, fifty-fifty. And that assumes that Palpatine is stupid enough to meet him face to face. (Which is, granted, not a huge assumption.) So, while taking into account that people will act "in character", the field might be more even than I initially implied, but I disagree that Palpatine will be a walk-over for Luke and/or any of his students (most of which are not anywhere near as powerful as either of the two, or even Leia's high-end feats in the DE comic).

And the main point remains that the Jedi Commando wankers will cheerfully use the New Jedi Order while presuming that the Imperial Force-users of their various orders do not exist. That was what I took issue with originally.

LOTF Luke is far, far, far more powerful than DE Luke.

Also, about the Empire's Force users, Jerec and other inquisitors got pwned by Kyle back when he barely had any training at all. The New Jedi Order is vastly superior to any Force using group that the Empire had.

[Darth Hoth]

LOTF Luke is far, far, far more powerful than DE Luke.

And you can quantify this, of course? Support it with evidence?

Also, about the Empire's Force users, Jerec and other inquisitors got pwned by Kyle back when he barely had any training at all.

Two Jedi in a comic were killed by an untrained child (Zannah in Jedi vs Sith). Therefore, all Jedi suck . . . and because I say so, of course.

The New Jedi Order is vastly superior to any Force using group that the Empire had.

And you can quantify this, of course? Support it with evidence?

[Star Wars 888]

And you can quantify this, of course? Support it with evidence?

He's had, like, 30 years to improve. He learned a huge amount of Force powers since DE.

Two Jedi in a comic were killed by an untrained child (Zannah in Jedi vs Sith). Therefore, all Jedi suck . . . and because I say so, of course.

She caught them by surprise. Kyle defeated several of the supposedly touch inquisitors when Kyle was still, like, a padawan.

And you can quantify this, of course? Support it with evidence?

The Empire only had 2 sith. The NJO has hundreds of Jedi, many that are more powerful than one or two of those sith. Those inquisitors that the Empire had weren't actual sith or Jedi.

[NecronLord]

The young Palpatine clone defeated Luke in standard lightsabre combat moments after popping out of his arti-womb, before he was at peak strength. Then, Luke (with passive assistance from Leia and unborn Baby Anakin) defeated him in similar combat an unspecified period of time later, but not too long afterwards. He cut off his hand, even.

Yes. The point was that Luke was inspired and in a mindset to win second time, while first time he wasn't. He had Palpatine's "Shroud of Evil" (which fits nicely with the prequels) lifted from his mind second time, - he had an epiphany of sorts and was then able to kick the shit out of Palpatine. Given that the entire series is presented as a learning experience for Luke, I would imagine that a re-run would go the same way. And Luke has presumably learnt a few other tricks since that point.

In other words, trained Jedi Master Luke's record against him was, at best, fifty-fifty. And that assumes that Palpatine is stupid enough to meet him face to face. (Which is, granted, not a huge assumption.) So, while taking into account that people will act "in character", the field might be more even than I initially implied, but I disagree that Palpatine will be a walk-over for Luke and/or any of his students (most of which are not anywhere near as powerful as either of the two, or even Leia's high-end feats in the DE comic).

Agreed, I know of nothing to suggest any of Skywalker's students could take Palpatine. But Skywalker himself did so with ease last time they met. And this Palpatine is weaker; the epilogues of Dark Empire and such all say that Palpatine as of DE had learnt more than he knew as of RotJ.

[Darth Hoth]

He's had, like, 30 years to improve. He learned a huge amount of Force powers since DE.

And you can quantify this, of course? Support it with evidence?

She caught them by surprise. Kyle defeated several of the supposedly touch inquisitors when Kyle was still, like, a padawan.

He was not a padawan. That institution did not exist at the time.

Nitpick aside, he was also one of the stronger Jedi and much better armed than they, and he fought them one on one, not all at once.

They are not invulnerable, but then neither are Jedi.

The Empire only had 2 sith. The NJO has hundreds of Jedi, many that are more powerful than one or two of those sith. Those inquisitors that the Empire had weren't actual sith or Jedi.

What, a "Name Game" argument? A Dark Side patriarch like Kadann could not match the weakest Jedi because Palpatine did not see fit to grant him the title of Sith Lord? Tionne would no doubt make mincemeat of Sedriss in a sabre-fight?

Seriously?

Names and titles are useless for purposes of quantification. Demonstrated abilities matter.

Also, evidence for NJO Jedi being stronger than Vader/Palpatine?

[Darth Hoth]

Yes. The point was that Luke was inspired and in a mindset to win second time, while first time he wasn't. He had Palpatine's "Shroud of Evil" (which fits nicely with the prequels) lifted from his mind second time, - he had an epiphany of sorts and was then able to kick the shit out of Palpatine. Given that the entire series is presented as a learning experience for Luke, I would imagine that a re-run would go the same way. And Luke has presumably learnt a few other tricks since that point.

If I recall the dialogue correctly, he said something about being mistaken in trying to take Palpatine alone. The way of the Jedi is not a solitary path, or thereabouts; he needed Leia's assistance to succeed where he alone failed, even when he used the full extent of his knowledge and ability. That would also be a learning experience/epiphany, but with somewhat different implications.

Agreed, I know of nothing to suggest any of Skywalker's students could take Palpatine. But Skywalker himself did so with ease last time they met.

I would not quite say "with ease" unless that is elaborated elsewhere than in the comic itself. (Or if you are referring to Empire's End, when he had degenerated completely.) Although he did defeat him in close combat.

The most wanked-out EU Jedi in the post-films era was Kyp Durron, right? He would probably be among the better bets, if one needed to put forth a contender.

And this Palpatine is weaker; the epilogues of Dark Empire and such all say that Palpatine as of DE had learnt more than he knew as of RotJ.

Do you have accesss to the DE endnotes? I have been looking for a copy including those, but never found any. Are they any good?

[NecronLord]

I'll answer the rest of your post when I've time. But the endnotes are actually pretty awesome. A lot of story stuff that didn't go in the comics in there. I found the original series of comics while looking for something else and bought them on a whim.

[Edit for clarity]

[Star Wars 888]

And you can quantify this, of course? Support it with evidence?

A few of the things he learned:

illusions
hiding himself in the Force
generating lifelike copies of objects and even starships
Jar'Kai (well, maybe he learned it by DE)
bloodtrails
and much more

Also, there's the natural progression of having 30 years to hone his skills and Force powers.

He was not a padawan. That institution did not exist at the time.

That's not my point. My point is that he had the Force training of a padawan and yet beat Jerec.

Nitpick aside, he was also one of the stronger Jedi and much better armed than they, and he fought them one on one, not all at once.

They are not invulnerable, but then neither are Jedi.

And he had the training on par with a padawan and still beat them.

What, a "Name Game" argument? A Dark Side patriarch like Kadann could not match the weakest Jedi because Palpatine did not see fit to grant him the title of Sith Lord? Tionne would no doubt make mincemeat of Sedriss in a sabre-fight?

Seriously?

Names and titles are useless for purposes of quantification. Demonstrated abilities matter.

How many of those inquisitors would have any sort of combat experience or training time? Other than fallen Jedi, most would have been found and then had to have been trained in the process of at most around 19 years. And even then their numbers were not shown to be anywhere near that of the NJO.

Also, evidence for NJO Jedi being stronger than Vader/Palpatine?

LOTF Luke is stronger than Vader and Sidious.

Luke by Legacy of the Force had performed so many uber feats that the writers had to come up with intense PIS and CIS to prevent him from ending LOTF by killing Caedus in numerous books where he had the chance to.

Luke:

Manipulated a black hole
Defeated a guy that had the Force potential of an entire colony backing him up
Rooted himself in the Force to resist an attack, and was stated to be able to resist a supermassive black hole
Pinned Caedus, who was stated to be more powerful than Darth Vader, to a chair with a mere thought
Made Caedus see a fleet of illusionary ships
Generated an illusion that enhanced Jaina's powers to match his own and made Jaina look like Luke, and even somehow seemed to make himself appear at two places at once solidly enough to deflect blaster bolts
Moved a shuttle in the middle of a battle by glancing at it
Could predict the future to the point of which he could accurately predict the outcome of missions hours or days in advance
Cloaked ships
Generated lifelike copies of ships
Stopped a food fight by freezing the food in midair with a gesture
Deflected shots from AT-ATs
Toppled over AT-ATs
Piloted the Millennium Falcon using the Force
Caedus admitted that Luke was perhaps the greatest swordsman there ever was
Corran stated Luke to be the most powerful being in the Galaxy
Han said (or mused as we readers can read in his PoV) that the only plausible way for Luke to be killed would be for the laws of the universe to change Although of course that was hyperbole
Luke was piloting his stealth x and avoiding turbolaser shots so well that Jaina suspected that he had some sort of telepathic connection to the gunners' minds
and more

Kyp is probably above Vader. Kyp moved the sun crusher out of the gravity well of a star (although admittingly he was being influenced and probably amped by the spirit of Exar Kun) and manipulated a black hole. Kyle might be on par with Vader, although it's hard to tell since a lot of his feats are from video games, a much of video games are game mechanics

[Darth Hoth]

illusions
hiding himself in the Force
generating lifelike copies of objects and even starships
Jar'Kai (well, maybe he learned it by DE)
bloodtrails
and much more

None of which will impress Palpatine. (Except perhaps "bloodtrails", for I have no idea what that is.)

Also, there's the natural progression of having 30 years to hone his skills and Force powers.

And this can be quantified?

That's not my point. My point is that he had the Force training of a padawan and yet beat Jerec.

No, he had less training than that. He just had that much natural talent. Just like Zannah.

By the way, one of the Dark Jedi he made mincemeat of was Maw, a former Jedi Shadow (or, basically, a member of the Jedi Internal Affairs division) who had all the strength and power of Jedi and Inquisitor training. And Jerec himself was a Jedi Master, in addition to being a Sith scholar, and yet Kyle defeated him. This is obviously further proof that Jedi suck.

How many of those inquisitors would have any sort of combat experience or training time? Other than fallen Jedi, most would have been found and then had to have been trained in the process of at most around 19 years. And even then their numbers were not shown to be anywhere near that of the NJO.

And for how long have most New Jedi Order people trained? A couple of decades, also, or less? Thought so.

And Inquisitors are apparently rather numerous, if we use the Dark Empire Sourcebook:

Inquisition Module
Crew: 100 Inquisitors, 3,660 CompForce/observation staff, 10,000 interrogation droids
Cost: 425,000 credits

Capsule: This module is the most recent addition and it is used for punitive actions against insurgents and rebellious worlds. ( . . . )

The "Inquisition Module" in question is a mass-produced "add-on" to a Modular Taskforce Cruiser. Even if we assume that they are very rare, and that only ten were ever built, they require a crew of 1,000 Inquisitors. So, going by that extremely conservative assumption, the Inquisitors alone (never mind Dark Jedi, Dark Side Adepts, Sovereign Protectors, et al) significantly outnumber the NJO.

Manipulated a black hole

Was it a real black hole, or a Yuuzhan Vong dovin basal?

Defeated a guy that had the Force potential of an entire colony backing him up

Quote, please?

Rooted himself in the Force to resist an attack, and was stated to be able to resist a supermassive black hole

Quote?

Pinned Caedus, who was stated to be more powerful than Darth Vader, to a chair with a mere thought

Caedus is Jacen Solo, right?

Made Caedus see a fleet of illusionary ships

Did Jacen have any mental discipline at that point, or was he going emo like Anakin in the films?

Generated an illusion that enhanced Jaina's powers to match his own and made Jaina look like Luke, and even somehow seemed to make himself appear at two places at once solidly enough to deflect blaster bolts

Generating illusions is child's play to most Sith. Luke did it DE, as well.

Moved a shuttle in the middle of a battle by glancing at it

In space, I take it? How fast did he move it, and was it mobile already or stationary?

Could predict the future to the point of which he could accurately predict the outcome of missions hours or days in advance

Examples? Was it "This is not going to end well at all" or "I sense the third trooper from the left will hit Jedi Mook XYZ with a stray shot fourteen seconds into the battle"?

Cloaked ships
Generated lifelike copies of ships

The ancient Sith did that as well. Wannabe Sith Aleema did it. It is not hugely difficult, apparently.

Stopped a food fight by freezing the food in midair with a gesture

Fun, and possibly demonstrates better "fine-control" TK than was evidenced in DE and before.

Deflected shots from AT-ATs
Toppled over AT-ATs

He did this in DE, as well.

Piloted the Millennium Falcon using the Force

Did this in The Courtship of Princess Leia, set before DE.

Caedus admitted that Luke was perhaps the greatest swordsman there ever was
Corran stated Luke to be the most powerful being in the Galaxy
Han said (or mused as we readers can read in his PoV) that the only plausible way for Luke to be killed would be for the laws of the universe to change Although of course that was hyperbole
Luke was piloting his stealth x and avoiding turbolaser shots so well that Jaina suspected that he had some sort of telepathic connection to the gunners' minds
and more

All right, so they thought so.

Kyp is probably above Vader. Kyp moved the sun crusher out of the gravity well of a star (although admittingly he was being influenced and probably amped by the spirit of Exar Kun) and manipulated a black hole.

He pulled it out of a gas giant, not a star. And the black hole was, if I recall correctly, not a real black hole at all, but a dovin basal. Unless you are referring to some bit I am not familiar with.

[Star Wars 888]

None of which will impress Palpatine. (Except perhaps "bloodtrails", for I have no idea what that is.)

Actually, of those I mentioned, Sidious only knew the hide in the Force ability, and even then he could only do it by performing some sort of ritual.

And this can be quantified?

It's common sense. Note that Force users don't seem to get weaker with age until they hit their prime in Force power. Luke has the Force potential of Anakin according to George Lucas. Luke couldn't have plausibly reached his prime by DE; he would have had about as much time to train as Anakin did by ROTS, and Anakin had more formal training and still hadn't reached his potential yet.

No, he had less training than that. He just had that much natural talent. Just like Zannah.

Then you've proved my point.

By the way, one of the Dark Jedi he made mincemeat of was Maw, a former Jedi Shadow (or, basically, a member of the Jedi Internal Affairs division) who had all the strength and power of Jedi and Inquisitor training. And Jerec himself was a Jedi Master, in addition to being a Sith scholar, and yet Kyle defeated him. This is obviously further proof that Jedi suck.

Except that your "proof" involves a Jedi beating a former Jedi.

And for how long have most New Jedi Order people trained? A couple of decades, also, or less? Thought so.

Depends, but they've also been through much more combat experience, ie the YV war.

And Inquisitors are apparently rather numerous, if we use the Dark Empire Sourcebook:

Inquisition Module
Crew: 100 Inquisitors, 3,660 CompForce/observation staff, 10,000 interrogation droids
Cost: 425,000 credits

100 isn't all that much in this case.

Capsule: This module is the most recent addition and it is used for punitive actions against insurgents and rebellious worlds. ( . . . )

The "Inquisition Module" in question is a mass-produced "add-on" to a Modular Taskforce Cruiser. Even if we assume that they are very rare, and that only ten were ever built, they require a crew of 1,000 Inquisitors. So, going by that extremely conservative assumption, the Inquisitors alone (never mind Dark Jedi, Dark Side Adepts, Sovereign Protectors, et al) significantly outnumber the NJO.

I'm confused. What do these modules represent or prove?

Was it a real black hole, or a Yuuzhan Vong dovin basal?

Dovin basals, but their gravitational pull is enough to absorb laser bolts, concussion missiles and such.

Quote, please?

He was fighting Raynar Thul. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Raynar

Quote?

I don't have the book with me, but the author said that, when Raynar tried to Force push him, Luke was ready. The author wrote that he was the very essence of an immovable object when using this rooting himself in the Force technique, and goes on to list a bunch of things that couldn't move him. Among them were a star destroyer's tractor beams and the black hole at the center of the galaxy.

Caedus is Jacen Solo, right?

Yeah. He was stated to be more powerful than Darth Vader, and yet Luke pinned him to his chair without showing any visible effort.

Did Jacen have any mental discipline at that point, or was he going emo like Anakin in the films?

He wasn't crazy, and still had a clear head.

Generating illusions is child's play to most Sith. Luke did it DE, as well.

I don't think you get it. He did something so advanced that Caedus never figured out what happened, and quite frankly I have a hard time understanding what happened too. Jaina was being amped by Luke, and Caedus thought that Jaina was Luke. Then, Caedus actually saw Luke, and then ordered stormtroopers to fire at him. They did, and apparently Luke was actually deflecting the blaster bolts even when he wasn't actually there. In fact, he was in a ship outside in the space battle.

In space, I take it? How fast did he move it, and was it mobile already or stationary?

Actually, in a hanger. He moved it fast enough to send it crashing into a platoon of GAG troopers.

Examples? Was it "This is not going to end well at all" or "I sense the third trooper from the left will hit Jedi Mook XYZ with a stray shot fourteen seconds into the battle"?

He predicted the outcome of a mission he gave, and predicted the outcome of a hypothetical battle between him and Caedus.

The ancient Sith did that as well. Wannabe Sith Aleema did it. It is not hugely difficult, apparently.

They did it to a lesser degree or with fancy rituals. In the middle of a fight Sidious wouldn't have time to chant some sort of ritual.

Luke is capable of generating illusions without using said rituals.

Fun, and possibly demonstrates better "fine-control" TK than was evidenced in DE and before.

It was a food fight in that Jedi school in Yavin 4. He froze every piece of food midair with a gesture, and dropped them with another gesture.

He did this in DE, as well.

That was actually where I was getting the example from.

In Fate of the Jedi: Backlash he knocks a rancor over.

Did this in The Courtship of Princess Leia, set before DE.

Yeah, that's where the feat's from.

All right, so they thought so.

Yet these are people that have been with Luke for a long time and have witnessed his powers - note that Luke isn't a show off.

He pulled it out of a gas giant, not a star. And the black hole was, if I recall correctly, not a real black hole at all, but a dovin basal. Unless you are referring to some bit I am not familiar with.

[/quote]

Oops, sorry, a gas giant. Still though, a gas giant has a lot of gravitational force.

[NecronLord]

LOTF Luke is far, far, far more powerful than DE Luke.

Also, about the Empire's Force users, Jerec and other inquisitors got pwned by Kyle back when he barely had any training at all. The New Jedi Order is vastly superior to any Force using group that the Empire had.

This is not correct. Kyle Katarn was able to attain mastery of the force by accessing the memories of at least two force spirits in the Valley of the Jedi. In that respect by the time he confronted Jerec he had the combat-knowledge of both a senior member (Jedi Lord) of the Army of Light and of a leading member (Sith Lord) of the Brotherhood of Darkness. He was in effect more experienced than Jerec, albeit in outdated techniques (which worked to his advantage, he killed Sariss by using a lightsaber stroke completely unheard of in modern times which caught her by surprise, she was otherwise superior in combat). His talents were quite basic before he arrived on Ruusann.

He had excellent training, two lifetimes of it.

This is covered in the novellas of Jedi Knight. Personally I found it an elegant way to explain the rapid progression during the game from apprentice to (if you hit all the secret areas) Jedi Lord.

[Imperial528]

They were stated to be outdated. This supports my assertion that OT era tech was inferior to LOTF era tech.

IIRC, the LOTF era is a few decades from the OT, correct? Well, I wouldn't say that an ISD would be outdated in technology more that it would be old. 20-30 years and lack of proper maintenance does lots of bad shit to complex systems.

That was a half joke, but if you actually want an example, 7 GA security soldiers took down a Jedi Knight. Jaina commented that LOTF era stormtroopers "were not her mother's stormtroopers" in that they could actually hit things.

I read that actually. It struck me as being that the GA troopers were trained to deal with Jedi, which New Order-era Stormtroopers were not, save the 501st.

12 Jedi Masters (aka the New Jedi Council) and 50 Jedi Knights supported by the Millennium Falcon easily took control of the Anakin Solo in a matter of minutes, even when said ship had troops that were the elite of the elite (since they were guarding the moffs) They can do that to a flagship, take control of said ship, and keep on doing that to each imperial fleet.

Assuming that the Imperial side would attack at least a few worlds at a time, I don't think they'll be as successful as you hope. Since the Falcon and 62 Jedi can only be in one place at once.

Jedi in Stealth X's absolutely pwned a Confederation fleet that was actually more advanced than OT era fleets.

Just because a weapon is more advanced doesn't mean it is more powerful. There isn't shit like a "cosmic tech tree". And I would like to know in which ways, specifically, it was more advanced. And what ships, specifically, where in the battle.

Stealth X's are invisible to sensors. They're black, so in space they'd be almost impossible to see (and some source suggest that they can turn invisible as well). Shadow bombs are activated by the Force and can't be tracked by sensors. Jedi can communicate with the Force, which can't be tracked by sensors.

Any ship with thermal sensors would immediately pick up on their engine exhausts and the thermal radiation from the reactor itself, which is at the least enough to launch proximity-based torpedoes at them or just spam flak-blasts.

Except that he made no attempt to explain how my proof was flawed.

The burden of proof is on the one who made the statement: You. If someone asks to specify, the burden is on you.

[Star Wars 888]

IIRC, the LOTF era is a few decades from the OT, correct? Well, I wouldn't say that an ISD would be outdated in technology more that it would be old. 20-30 years and lack of proper maintenance does lots of bad shit to complex systems.

That could be part of the reason, but a lot of the OP era tech was being upgraded to LOTF era tech that was specifically stated to be superior in some meaningful way.

I read that actually. It struck me as being that the GA troopers were trained to deal with Jedi, which New Order-era Stormtroopers were not, save the 501st.

Why would GA troopers be trained to deal with Jedi? They're like on the same side.

Assuming that the Imperial side would attack at least a few worlds at a time, I don't think they'll be as successful as you hope. Since the Falcon and 62 Jedi can only be in one place at once.

But there's more than 62 Jedi in the NJO, and taking flagships and other key vessels could be very effective.

Just because a weapon is more advanced doesn't mean it is more powerful. There isn't shit like a "cosmic tech tree". And I would like to know in which ways, specifically, it was more advanced. And what ships, specifically, where in the battle.

Well, the fleet consisted of star destroyers, smaller vessels and starfighters as a typical fleet would.

Any ship with thermal sensors would immediately pick up on their engine exhausts and the thermal radiation from the reactor itself, which is at the least enough to launch proximity-based torpedoes at them or just spam flak-blasts.

Actually, apparently whoever designed the stealth x's thought of this. Shadow bombs could be activated by the Force and would not give off heat emmisions. IDK about the heat emissions they give off upon moving, but I'd think that they took care of that issue too.
[/quote]