Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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Kanastrous
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Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

Post by Kanastrous »

Housing will eventually recover from its great swoon. But many real estate experts now believe that home ownership will never again yield rewards like those enjoyed in the second half of the 20th century, when houses not only provided shelter but also a plump nest egg.

The wealth generated by housing in those decades, particularly on the coasts, did more than assure the owners a comfortable retirement. It powered the economy, paying for the education of children and grandchildren, keeping the cruise ships and golf courses full and the restaurants humming.

More than likely, that era is gone for good.

“There is no iron law that real estate must appreciate,” said Stan Humphries, chief economist for the real estate site Zillow. “All those theories advanced during the boom about why housing is special — that more people are choosing to spend more on housing, that more people are moving to the coasts, that we were running out of usable land — didn’t hold up.”

Instead, Mr. Humphries and other economists say, housing values will only keep up with inflation. A home will return the money an owner puts in each month, but will not multiply the investment.

Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, estimates that it will take 20 years to recoup the $6 trillion of housing wealth that has been lost since 2005. After adjusting for inflation, values will never catch up.

“People shouldn’t look at a home as a way to make money because it won’t,” Mr. Baker said.

If the long term is grim, the short term is grimmer. Housing experts are bracing themselves for Tuesday, when the sales figures for July will be released. The data is expected to show a drop of as much as 20 percent from last year.

The supply of homes sitting on the market might rise to as much as 12 months, about twice the level of a healthy market. That would push down prices as all those sellers compete to secure a buyer, adding to a slide that has already chopped off as much as 30 percent in home values.

Set against this dismal present and a bleak future, buying a home is a willful act of optimism. That explains why Adam and Allison Lyons are waiting to close on a $417,500 house in Deerfield, Ill.

“We’re trying not to think too far ahead,” said Ms. Lyons, 35, an information technology manager.

The couple’s first venture into real estate came in 2003 when they bought a condo in a 17-unit building under construction in Chicago. By the time they moved in two years later, it was already worth $50,000 more than they had paid. “We were thinking, great!” said Mr. Lyons, 34.

That quick appreciation started them on the same track as their parents, who watched the value of their houses ascend for decades. The real estate crash interrupted that pleasant dream. The couple cannot sell their condo. Unwillingly, they are becoming landlords.

“I don’t think we’re ever going to see the prosperity our parents did, but I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom either,” said Mr. Lyons, a manager at I.B.M. “At some point, you just have to say what the heck and go for it.”

Other buyers have grand and even grander expectations.

In an annual survey conducted by the economists Robert J. Shiller and Karl E. Case, hundreds of new owners in four communities — Alameda County near San Francisco, Boston, Orange County south of Los Angeles, and Milwaukee — once again said they believed prices would rise about 10 percent a year for the next decade.

With minor swings in sentiment, the latest results reflect what new buyers always seem to feel. At the boom’s peak in 2005, they said prices would go up. When the market was sliding in 2008, they still said prices would go up.

“People think it’s a law of nature,” said Mr. Shiller, who teaches at Yale.

For the first half of the 20th century, he said, expectations followed the opposite path. Houses were seen the way cars are now: as a consumer durable that the buyer eventually used up.

The notion of housing as an investment first began to blossom after World War II, when the nesting urges of returning soldiers created a construction boom. Demand was stoked as their bumper crop of children grew up and bought places of their own. The inflation of the 1970s, which increased the value of hard assets, and liberal tax policies both helped make housing a good bet. So did the long decline in mortgage rates from the early 1980s.

Despite all these tailwinds, prices rose modestly for much of the period. Real home prices increased 1.1 percent a year after inflation, according to Mr. Shiller’s research.

By the late 1990s, however, the rate was 4 percent a year. Happy homeowners were taking about $100 billion a year out of their houses, which paid for a lot of good times.

“The experience we had from the late 1970s to the late 1990s was an aberration,” said Barry Ritholtz of the equity research firm Fusion IQ. “People shouldn’t be holding their breath waiting for it to happen again.”

Not everyone views the notion of real appreciation in real estate as a lost cause.

Bob Walters, chief economist of the online mortgage firm Quicken, acknowledges that the recent collapse will create a “mind scar” just as the Great Depression did. But he argues that housing remains unique.

“You have to live somewhere,” he said. “In three or four years, people will resume a normal course, and home values will continue to increase.”

All homes are different, and some neighborhoods and regions will rebound more quickly. On the other hand, areas where there was intense overbuilding, like Arizona, will be extremely slow to show any sign of renewal.

“It’s entirely likely that markets like Arizona will not recover even in the 15- to 20-year time frame,” said Mr. Humphries of Zillow. “The demand doesn’t exist.”

Owners in those foreclosure-plagued areas consider themselves lucky if they are still solvent. But that does not prevent the occasional regret that a life-changing sum of money was so briefly within their grasp.

Robert Austin, a Phoenix lawyer, paid $200,000 for his home in 2000. Five years later, his neighbors listed a similar home for $500,000.

Freedom beckoned. “I thought, when my daughter gets out of school, I can sell the house and buy a boat and sail around the world,” said Mr. Austin, 56.

His home is now worth about what he paid for it. As for that cruise, “it may be a while,” Mr. Austin said. Showing the hopefulness that is apparently innate to homeowners, he added: “But I won’t rule it out forever.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38811725/ns ... ork_times/

This doesn't really impact our plans because we never treated out property as a piggy bank (until taking some money out of the first home to make the down payment on the second, together with a refi we would have done anyway) and regard the new home as a place to live, not a money-maker (the townhouse was always planned as an income property, and is located and was purchased at a price point such that we should still do okay on it). What this has me wondering is whether this is also the time to stretch a bit more and see if we can snap up a decent multi-unit rental property now rather than a few years from now...or not.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

Post by Patrick Degan »

Real estate will eventually be again an appreciable investment, as these things happen in cycles. But we've likely seen the end of that in our lifetimes and perhaps for the next two generations after as well.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

Post by Phantasee »

It's interesting that they're predicting a large drop for July sales. We've had huge drops in BC and Ontario, and Canada overall, but up here they're blaming it on the GST to HST switch in those two provinces. Which of course is stupid, since I'm pretty sure GST and PST applied to most of the same things when it comes to buying a home (GST only applies to the first homebuyer, you don't get charged each time you sell the home after that), like appraisals and realtor fees.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

Post by LaCroix »

Real estate will always be a reasonable investment. The process is called 'renting out'. It just won't give you multi-digit percent return on investment, like the speculators were used to get during the bubble. But you can build a pretty nest-egg by buying a house and renting it out to pay for it's mortgage. After it's paid, you buy another house, which you also rent out, using both the rents to pay the new mortgage and have an income, as well. Repeat as many times as you like. A family I know has used this to quite an extent, now building the fifth house to rent out. I am watching them doing it for about fifteen years, when they started renting out the second house. I might copy their system one day when I can afford it...

The big problem with that is that you will have to take care of your investment. But since I doubt people would buy an house and let it rot while waiting for prices to rise, anyway.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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Phantasee wrote:It's interesting that they're predicting a large drop for July sales. We've had huge drops in BC and Ontario, and Canada overall, but up here they're blaming it on the GST to HST switch in those two provinces. Which of course is stupid, since I'm pretty sure GST and PST applied to most of the same things when it comes to buying a home (GST only applies to the first homebuyer, you don't get charged each time you sell the home after that), like appraisals and realtor fees.
In Ontario, the HST switch affects only new homes which are over $400k, everything else remains unchanged. They will of course blame it on the switch because the alternative is the truth, and they can't let you know the truth. The real reason is prices are way too high and we've reached the limits of cheap mortgages, which means prices must come down and it's not a good time to buy. But the banks, realtors and housing industry people can't tell you that for pretty obvious reasons, so they'll make up all kinds of stuff like taxes, bad weather, too many people shopping for christmas gifts and so forth.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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LaCroix wrote:Real estate will always be a reasonable investment. The process is called 'renting out'. It just won't give you multi-digit percent return on investment, like the speculators were used to get during the bubble. But you can build a pretty nest-egg by buying a house and renting it out to pay for it's mortgage. After it's paid, you buy another house, which you also rent out, using both the rents to pay the new mortgage and have an income, as well. Repeat as many times as you like. A family I know has used this to quite an extent, now building the fifth house to rent out. I am watching them doing it for about fifteen years, when they started renting out the second house. I might copy their system one day when I can afford it...
This is the sort of behaviour that helped fuel the housing bubble though, according to Michael Hudson (and I'm inclined to agree). Though there is more to it than this (namely low interest rates and particularly how the tax structure is set up) what happened was that real estate investors would calculate how much rent they extract from a property after taxes (and I guess maintenance) which could then all be directed to paying the interest on a loan. They could then go take the largest loan possible for which the rent could cover the interest payments and basically bid against each other to see who could essentially leverage the largest loan. The idea is not make any money on the rent, but rather through the capital gains. This is where the tax system has an effect since investors could claim that the property is depreciating rapidly in value (although the market value is increasing), that their interest repayments were a cost of business (rather than a financing decision) and they had to pay little to no capital gains tax if they kept ploughing their earnings back into real estate.

This is where the speculative (Ponzi) investing kicks in. If enough people are making money on real estate and buying more property, then it should follow that this will cause a positive feedback loop as property values rise from increasing levels of investment and more buyers/investors entering the market seeing the money being made by others. Eventually everybody gets so leveraged into debt and the prices hit totally unsustainable levels that the house of cards starts coming down, but the biggest kicker is that none of this helpful to the economy as a whole since the money is not being put to productive uses; just continually pumped into something that mother nature has already provided and will continue to provide well after the speculators have long gone: land.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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The Jester wrote:
LaCroix wrote:Real estate will always be a reasonable investment. The process is called 'renting out'. It just won't give you multi-digit percent return on investment, like the speculators were used to get during the bubble. But you can build a pretty nest-egg by buying a house and renting it out to pay for it's mortgage. After it's paid, you buy another house, which you also rent out, using both the rents to pay the new mortgage and have an income, as well. Repeat as many times as you like. A family I know has used this to quite an extent, now building the fifth house to rent out. I am watching them doing it for about fifteen years, when they started renting out the second house. I might copy their system one day when I can afford it...
This is the sort of behaviour that helped fuel the housing bubble though, according to Michael Hudson (and I'm inclined to agree). Though there is more to it than this (namely low interest rates and particularly how the tax structure is set up) what happened was that real estate investors would calculate how much rent they extract from a property after taxes (and I guess maintenance) which could then all be directed to paying the interest on a loan. They could then go take the largest loan possible for which the rent could cover the interest payments and basically bid against each other to see who could essentially leverage the largest loan. The idea is not make any money on the rent, but rather through the capital gains. This is where the tax system has an effect since investors could claim that the property is depreciating rapidly in value (although the market value is increasing), that their interest repayments were a cost of business (rather than a financing decision) and they had to pay little to no capital gains tax if they kept ploughing their earnings back into real estate.

This is where the speculative (Ponzi) investing kicks in. If enough people are making money on real estate and buying more property, then it should follow that this will cause a positive feedback loop as property values rise from increasing levels of investment and more buyers/investors entering the market seeing the money being made by others. Eventually everybody gets so leveraged into debt and the prices hit totally unsustainable levels that the house of cards starts coming down, but the biggest kicker is that none of this helpful to the economy as a whole since the money is not being put to productive uses; just continually pumped into something that mother nature has already provided and will continue to provide well after the speculators have long gone: land.
Which means, basically, that this was gambling on housing futures. Works as long as you've got a bubble going.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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Real Estate will still function as a Wealth builder. Just not a 'quick' wealth builder.

You just will have to have a good income flow, and be sensible about things.

My wife and I, once we get some of our current house paid down (say 5 years or so), might be able to, when we go in for our 'it's been 5 years, time to renegotiate your mortgage rate' meeting, be able to negotiate something that might let us try to either buy a property and rent it out for more then the mortgage, or find a 'handy man special' to fix up and house flip.

However, single income families will probably never have that option.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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Actually, thinking about LeCroix's anecdote, his friends have gone from having one property to five in 15 years. Assuming that the properties have all been about equal in value, they would need a return on investment of about 10.7% (10 * ln(5) / 15) which is obviously an extremely good return on investment and in no way sustainable. I guess it's possible that they could have other income being pumped into their investment which obviously bring the number down, but this is still really high, especially when you consider that they're just investing in something that's already there. Considering that LeCroix and others in this thread have indicated a desire to try the same thing, it's not hard to see how the bubble grows...
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

Post by Phantasee »

Getting people to pay rent that covers a mortgage payment is also pretty rare. Unless there are other factors at play, people would more likely just buy their own house. It takes a very, very tight rental market for rental rates to be as high as mortgage payments. We had one of the tightest rental markets ever in the Edmonton market back in 07/08, and even then the influx of new people was so great that the housing prices went up with it (plus the speculation), meaning nobody could buy a house and rent it out at a rate that was even near the mortgage payment.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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I think it's dependent upon when and where you bought. For example, I own a 2-br townhouse which costs $930/month in mortgage and fees - because it was basically a lucky buy the last time the market bottomed, and I refinanced into a better loan about five years ago, then into an improved one this year. The place is located in Silverlake CA, which is a comparatively easy place in which to find renters because it's a very nicely located and popular area of the city. A nice 2-bedroom townhouse (hardwood floors, private garage, private patio, cathedral ceilings etc) will reliably bring in a lot better than $930/mo in rent. I'm hoping for about $2300/mo (which is the high end of comps in that area) but all I need to bring in is $1600/mo to make the rest of the financial plan work. And somewhere in that range seems quite reasonable to hope for.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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My one bedroom apartment cost me 750/month, 10 years ago. That same building now lets them out at $850. 2 bedrooms cost 900, and 3 bedrooms cost 950. With a parking space, add +50 per car, per month.

My townhouse (3 bedrooms + finished basement), cost me a little over $850 a month. Condo fees put it to $1050.

And I had alot more room, and my own parking space, and a guest pass for a second space if I needed it.

It all depends on where and what you purchase to rent.

It also helps you need 10% of the downpayment to buy a house in Ontario. (5% if it's your second house). Many perspective homeowners can't do that.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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20% seems to be the magic number around here...
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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I never bought into the housing as an investment bandwagon, we had family friends working in real estate and we saw what happened to them in past housing busts, some of them got fucked hard. The last bust here in the early 90's took a nice 40% off housing prices, and back then personal savings and debt loads were a lot better than they are now, the price to income ratio was better too though interest rates weren't as good. I honestly wouldn't be surprised by a 60%-80% hit when all is said & done with the current depression, I figure a 50% haircut is the best case since that's what required to bring the price to income ratio back down to the historical average in my area.

Personally I wouldn't buy anything until prices come down to around 3X your annual family income, right now average prices here are floating at about 6X the average family income, fuck that, I ain't buying unless my income requires a couple commas to write out.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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The way they did was the following. Housing was direly needed in the city they live in, so they decided to act on it.
They actually all work, giving them two to four incomes (when the boys started working, as well with 16)

The reason why it is rather easy to rent out property at good rates is that in Europe, you usually have to present one half of the mortgage value in available money to get the mortgage. (It means that they look at the contract and only give you two thirds if you can prove that you have the other third already.) This makes building yourself an extremely

They used their house (which was big and mostly paid already, since it came from their grand parents) to get a mortgage to fund building the second one. They built it themselves in the spare-time, which is usual where they live and much cheaper, and since they were three 'men' and a woman, and lots of family helping, it went rather fast.

The mortgage worked out to about 1000 € a month, but it was for a house with two 3- room flats, which were rented out for ~700€ per month, if I remember the values correctly, each.

They then waited a few years to build up their funds, and used that money and the new house for a mortgage for another house, this time a bit larger, since that new house didn't have any mortgage already, and was also generating income, so it was more valuable to the bank. They then built another house, bigger, and with four flats, this time getting them a 1000€ extra income...

Then, they waited again to build funds and reduce their mortgage by using the extra income back to pay back faster, and after another few years, they did it again.

So they weren't exactly speculating, but rather serving the market and clever investing in a needed commodity.
The Jester is not considering the sum of their wages that went into the thing, which means that their ROI was more in the range of 2% in the beginning and reached higher digits only later with the completion of more houses.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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Well, business must be bad indeed because my loan agent - after having been incommunicado for a month - just emailed to inform me that rather than completing the loan which he was supposedly working on this whole time, he is closing his business of fifteen years and looking for something else to do because it's just gotten too hard to keep things going in the mortgage loan trade. And maybe I should check with my credit union, since I still need the loan.

Fucking wonderful.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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Dude, you're in California which is ground zero of the nuclear housing kaboom. It was one of the states with the biggest housing bubbles, and in dollar terms it was the largest bubble by far so when the bubble burst you guys got raped hard. Then you add in all the rest of the state's budget issues and it's one hell of a mess down there.
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Re: Real Estate Fading as Wealth-Builder

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I'm sure that's true overall but there are still pockets here and there where housing has held its value fairly well and where properties continue to sell pretty briskly. Although I expect that the mess to which you refer has everything to do with his business crashing.

What's super-aggravating about it is that we HAD a fucking loan arranged through this guy and my wife (in a way that we don't need to get into) wrecked, ruined, destroyed that deal and created the need for a replacement loan - if she had just done her part properly we would have had the loan settled months ago and not be out the several extra thousands we will now be, not to mention yet ANOTHER month of stress and fucking around with the process. It's like every time I've made peace with her stupid carelessness on this one, something new comes along to rip the goddamned scab off again.

...and now I'm just bitching.
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