Tea Party's Carl Paladino Backs Welfare Prison

[Temujin]

I've said it before, when Obama won the election over a year ago, did you really think the conservatives would just evaporate? The Tea Party is just the conservatives screaming at the top of their lungs that they've lost. A reactionary movement of people who changed labels because the GOPer label lost, and want their illusion back. I expect them to be loud, and to influence the election some but at the end of the day they are less than 20% of the voters who vote GOP and conservative anyways. The pendulum swings both ways, and after they go hoarse screaming their bullshit, it'll go the other way.

Exactly! This the way conservatives and fundi Christians always behave. Their degree of power and influence is inversely proportional to the amount of noise they're making. After a resurgence under Reagan, they have been steadily losing ground. Sept 11th gave them another boost, but instead of cultivating their political capital, they even more rapidly burned through it like a crack addict on a bender. And people act like Rove was some sort of Machiavellian genius.

[Simon_Jester]

Maybe for social issues like gay rights. But in terms of other issues like economic policies, I feel that they are leaning more towards the right.

Honestly, I expect things to swing back there too. Collapsing government services (especially on the local level) triggered by the recession is already making people in some areas seriously reconsider the wisdom of keeping taxes on an endless downward ratchet. Likewise we see a demographic shift on social issues- and there's a big overlap between social conservatism and far-right economic policies like intense opposition to welfare. The Tea Party represents a bloc that believes all the parts of the Republican party line, by and large... and that bloc is shrinking. That's going to affect the economic consensus in the US too, not just the social consensus.

The last time the economy was this bad, the country swung considerably to the left in the aftermath. People were very unsympathetic to Wall Street and big industrial concerns after the Great Depression, and Roosevelt made a very high profile effort to fight the Depression using big-government tactics that encouraged the average citizen to think well of big government.

Obama seems to be having difficulty doing the same thing (or, less charitably, he doesn't know or doesn't care that he needs to), but even if he doesn't, I suspect someone else will. The country is only going to get worse as long as laissez-faire fundamentalists and people who use the poor as a scapegoat to pretend nothing is wrong in America are running it, and I do not believe that the far right in this country can keep lying to all of the people indefinitely without being called on it.

In 2008 I'd hoped we'd seen the turning point; now it looks like it's going to take longer, but I still expect to see it in the near future.

[Broomstick]

Yeah, I know change is coming - I just hope it doesn't come with a !BANG! of violence/riots/other bad shit. happening.

[Alphawolf55]

I think with more Americans out of work, people will realize finally that there just aren't enough jobs for everyone and it's not always a lazy thing and thus be more sympathetic to the poor. Plus people fearing in losing their own job in the future might want more social services just in case they lose it in the future.

[Raw Shark]

I think that volunteering for a program that gives you job experience and training, to help you get a better job (which may include decent insurance) down the road, is a better answer to the medical care issue than doing nothing

As noted - we already have those programs in place. And they don't involve displacing people or having to house them in converted prisons.

Some of the people who aren't elligible for Job Corps might be elligible for the new program.

that Paladino would be committing political suicide with his base and thus neutralizing any effect he could've had on the matter if he proposed simply improving access to care for all welfare recipients

I would happily see the entire Tea Party and all their candidates commit political suicide.

Yes, yes, we're both in the same Big Tent, I'd just prefer if we didn't hold a three ring circus in it.

and that you're on the crazy train if you think they seriously intend to pull some sort of "Gotcha! You're locked in!" on the people who sign up.

Not so crazy - quite a few my European relatives bought into such a thing back in the late 1930's, the idea that if they just cooperated they'd be OK. Just go along, consent to go to this labor camp over there, where there will be housing and food and jobs....

They were all locked in. Then they were all killed.

Bait and switch on that level DOES occur. I don't have any illusions of it being impossible here in the US. I hope it never happens, but it's a possibility. From my viewpoint, it's not being paranoid, it's learning from history.

Tell you what, I'll accept comparisons to Nazi Motherfucking Germany when things have degenerated to the point at which we are burning wheelbarrows of dollar bills to heat our homes.

How do you work construction in August with that foil hat on? Your stamina must be extraordinary.

[Raw Shark]

I certainly can't force you, but I can make an argument that if you qualify for food stamps you should get them, for several reasons:

1) If your cash is limited food stamps allows you to spend more of those resources on important non-food items. This may be as simple as building up a small reserve (you are permitted up to $2,500 in cash assets while on food stamps) or buying new shoes or going to the dentist or getting a haircut.

2) If you've been severely economizing you may wind up eating better on food stamps - that is what happened with me and mine. I was able to buy higher quality food and more fresh fruit. I know you know how important a good diet is to maintaining health.

Good points.

3) When I got onto food stamps I discovered it was a gateway of sorts to other aid provided by county and state as a means of getting you into a better position financially. Among these services were:
- resume writing assistance
- job interview practice
- locations of sliding-fee clinics for your health needs
- how to sign up for the local "prescription clubs" for lower cost medications if you need them
- a limited amount of funds for purposes such as getting you clothes for a job interview or fixing a vehicle so you could get to work
- job fairs
- seminars on how to start your own business
And various others ALL open to young, single, healthy, able-bodied men. They do this at the point of people signing up for food stamps since that's so often the very first welfare benefit people seek out.

So you mean they'd do more than just threaten to kick me off food stamps if I don't apply for enough jobs, like you said earlier?

[Raw Shark]

Shark, an appeal to authority is not a fallacy unless the authority is invalid. [snip]

I stand corrected. Sorry for multi-posting, all, my computer is fucking with me bigtime.

Just for a different perspective, I currently work in welfare delivery (in the UK). And looking at these kinds of proposals always make me cringe, if nothing else from a cost reduction standpoint. Obviously I can’t really comment on the expenses of the US welfare system but let’s just take the UK:

The cost of keeping someone on JSA is in terms of ‘tooth’ (to hijack a logistics phrase – meaning in this case the money actually delivered to the customer) £65.45 per week for a single, healthy adult (£3,403.40 if they remain on it for a whole year) with no other income. There is various ‘tail’ (processing costs, child housing benefit, free school meals, prescription costs, etc of course most customers don’t get all of those and an adult without dependants won’t get say, child benefit) attached to that. The ‘tail’ costs more than the teeth, though this declines after initial costs in a long term claim. Because of the complexity of this, and how you count it, a precise figure per person per year for a healthy adult is difficult to come by, as it is spread throughout different departments and local authorities. Housing benefit, a major government expenditure, averaged at less than £100/week per claimant in 2003 for an annual total of £5,200 year. Let’s add another £2,000/ year for other potential payments and support in training for work and other things. That’s a generous total of £10,503.40/year, for the government to support a healthy adult in housing, looking for work, and surviving.

A conservative (as in restrained, not the political party) figure for keeping someone in prison costs over £24K/year.

You may argue that the costs would reduce because you no longer need to hire (as many) guards and keep big dogs for the prison. Unfortunately, the other costs would remain pretty much fixed. You would however need to hire in a whole variety of new staff, build new training facilities, and so on.

Prison is expensive; the point of prison is to isolate dangerous people from society.

You could probably put people into University and it would be cheaper. AFAIK a fully funded university course costs the government less than that.

This is leaving the immense personal damage of institutionalising people and limiting their opportunities to socialise outside a select group, damaging aspiration and motivation.

And won't someone think of the civil servants who'd have to commute to some isolated prison every day?

I did say that I think it's flawed... It can cost a shitload for all I care if it works, saving money is the priority of Paladino's base and providing benefits is mine.

[Broomstick]

3) When I got onto food stamps I discovered it was a gateway of sorts to other aid provided by county and state as a means of getting you into a better position financially. Among these services were:
- resume writing assistance
- job interview practice
- locations of sliding-fee clinics for your health needs
- how to sign up for the local "prescription clubs" for lower cost medications if you need them
- a limited amount of funds for purposes such as getting you clothes for a job interview or fixing a vehicle so you could get to work
- job fairs
- seminars on how to start your own business
And various others ALL open to young, single, healthy, able-bodied men. They do this at the point of people signing up for food stamps since that's so often the very first welfare benefit people seek out.

So you mean they'd do more than just threaten to kick me off food stamps if I don't apply for enough jobs, like you said earlier?

Oh, they'll still threaten your benefits - the whole public aid thing is very schizophrenic and full of catch-22's. You'll be told at every turn that not only could YOU be cut off, but so could every member of your family that is also on public aid. (That's right - if one member of a family doesn't toe the line EVERYONE can get cut off, no matter how compliant the rest are.)

The downside is that you get all of the above on THEIR terms. THEY get to decide if you're exerting yourself enough. Heaven help you if your case worker doesn't like you.

It's also location based - that's what you get if you live in Lake County, Indiana. If you live in one of our more southern counties you don't get nearly as much. It is all extremely patchwork. I don't know what's available in your area - and probably, neither do you. What there is, though, will probably be made available to you at the time you apply for food stamps, if you choose to do so.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Are there any rational reasons why someone would refuse to apply for welfare?

No. Refusing that sort of help is usually based on ideological principles and/or denial.

I apologize for vulturing/necro in advance, but even people who drink the tea party or republican koolaid can catch a bad case of doublethink. I remember Dave trying to get me on food stamps multiple times and Social Security at least once over the years, yet he still watches Faux Noise. Didn't get any of it (too much hassle), but I found a job instead which led me to make friends with half this city and cross paths with my sweetheart Cass: he swings a hammer for a living, I sell hammers and other tools for a living. I call it luck, which demonstrates why the anecdote is a logical fallacy.

If you can make it through life on your own without assistance, that's perfectly fine. But when you're down, we as a society need to grow a habit of offering a hand up to get you back on your feet! We do better when everyone is doing well. We do worse when nobody is doing well. We do worst when only the top one percent are doing well.