how would you redo the prequals

[Jim Raynor]

Qui-Gon adds very little to Anakin's character development at all, because for all intents and purposes the first film is about entirely different characters. Qui-Gon is unique to Episode I, and child Anakin is a completely different character from adult Anakin.

Anakin is the same character throughout the prequel trilogy. All his fears and insecurities in AOTC and ROTS stem from what happened to him in TPM. TPM establishes him as someone who's lived through crap, grew up with little, was attached to what he did have (his mother), had problems letting go, was afraid to lose people who were close to him, and had big ambitious boyhood dreams of becoming a great hero.

Whatever Qui-Gon contributed to child Anakin is moot by Episode 2. You might claim to see some remnants of Qui-Gon's influence on adult Anakin, but even if you're right it's too subtle to be of any real significance.

Shows how much you understand the movies then. The point of the movies is that Qui-Gon did not influence Anakin while he was growing up. Obi-Wan didn't take after his master, but instead chose to be a good Jedi as decided by the Council. Qui-Gon was an indication of what could have been, and should have been.

But the others obviously were right to shut Anakin out, regardless of whether it's Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan who pushes for the training.

Natural fear of loss as a child is not something that cannot be overcome with good mentoring. And that whole age thing was dogma; Luke is proof of that. The Jedi had understandable concerns given how a Force-attuned individual can succumb to the Dark Side if he's not careful, but the movies make it clear that they're dogmatic, narrow-minded, and set in their ways as well. Anakin was the actual Chosen One; ROTJ shows that he is destined to destroy the evil lord.

The tragedy of Anakin Skywalker isn't supposed to be about Obi-Wan screwing up, or Anakin missing out on a father figure like Qui-Gon, but rather a good man making his own decision to turn to evil.

It was so much of his "own" decision that Palpatine played him for a chump and manipulated him like a puppet...

Not giving in to hate and anger is one of the themes of the saga. The other one is about breaking free from the constraints of parent figures who don't believe in you, to achieve greater things:

1. Qui-Gon believes in Anakin, and he does well.
2. Obi-Wan doesn't believe in Anakin, and alienates him.
3. The Jedi Council are close-minded, and force the other Jedi to live under all sorts of limitations.
4. Luke's uncle wants to keep him on a farm. After his uncle is killed off, he leaves and becomes a great hero.
5. Vader (a modification of "Vater," German for father) is basically an abusive dad taken to the extreme. He wants Luke to be just like him, and is willing to maim or kill him if he doesn't listen.
6. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan believe that Vader still has some good in him, or in Luke's ability to redeem him. Luke proves them both wrong.[/list]

It's a clear theme running throughout all six movies.

But more importantly, with Qui-Gon out of the way, there's more time to flesh out the critical friendship between Obi Wan and Anakin, which, in my opinion, was sorely underdeveloped in the actual films.

There is no "critical friendship." Nothing in the original trilogy refers to this, beyond a passing sentence fragment in ANH where Obi-Wan said that Anakin was "a good friend." TESB revealed that Obi-Wan was lying and being highly selective in what he was telling Luke. Anakin and Obi-Wan are friendly with each other anyway a number of times throughout the prequels. They're also like father and son, and real fathers and sons bicker just as badly while still caring for each other. Obi-Wan getting his ass saved by Anakin during battle is also frequently mentioned and shown. All of this goes beyond a few vague words in one sentence fragment.

EDIT: fixed formatting

[Channel72]

Anakin is the same character throughout the prequel trilogy. All his fears and insecurities in AOTC and ROTS stem from what happened to him in TPM. TPM establishes him as someone who's lived through crap, grew up with little, was attached to what he did have (his mother), had problems letting go, was afraid to lose people who were close to him, and had big ambitious boyhood dreams of becoming a great hero.

TPM doesn't really establish that Anakin had that much difficulty letting go of his mother. He eagerly packed his bags and got the hell off Tatooine the first chance he got; there's no indication he had any real problems beyond the usual difficulty a small child would have after being separated from his parents. His problems letting go and his longing for his mother came out of nowhere in the middle of Episode 2.

It was so much of his "own" decision that Palpatine played him for a chump and manipulated him like a puppet...

Exactly - that's the whole point, isn't it. You obviously have very different dramatic taste or expectations than I do, but the idea that Anakin was basically "duped" into turning to the Dark Side essentially ruined the tragedy for me. The idea of a "tragedy" is rooted in classical Greek myth, where the tragic hero would suffer great misfortune because of a fatal personal flaw; whether it was his own pride, anger, or lust for power, ultimately the hero was doomed by fate to make the wrong decision. Based on this idea, as well as Vader's redemption in the OT, I went into the Prequels expecting that Anakin turned to the Dark Side because of his own lust for power or his need to exert order and control. He was a good man, but this tragic flaw would lead him down a dark path.

But, as it turns out, Anakin was basically just an insecure, whiny bitch who got conned into becoming a Sith based on some vague promise about saving Padme which played on his insecurities.

There is no "critical friendship." Nothing in the original trilogy refers to this, beyond a passing sentence fragment in ANH where Obi-Wan said that Anakin was "a good friend."

Again, we obviously have very different dramatic tastes. If there is no critical friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan, then where is the drama when Obi-Wan ultimately confronts Anakin for a two-hour epic lightsabre battle?

TESB revealed that Obi-Wan was lying and being highly selective in what he was telling Luke.

TESB and ROTJ reveal only that Obi-Wan lied about Vader/Anakin's identity. There's no indication anything else was a lie. Obi-Wan had no reason to lie about his good friendship with Anakin.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are friendly with each other anyway a number of times throughout the prequels. They're also like father and son, and real fathers and sons bicker just as badly while still caring for each other. Obi-Wan getting his ass saved by Anakin during battle is also frequently mentioned and shown. All of this goes beyond a few vague words in one sentence fragment.

In ROTS Obi-Wan and Anakin appear to be good friends. However, in TPM Anakin doesn't exist, and in AOTC Anakin appears to dislike Obi-Wan for the most part, at least during their limited screen-time together. So even though they're friendly in ROTS, we never really see how their friendship developed or what they went through together. This really lessens the dramatic impact of Anakin's ultimate betrayal and final confrontation with Obi-Wan.

[Jim Raynor]

TPM doesn't really establish that Anakin had that much difficulty letting go of his mother. He eagerly packed his bags and got the hell off Tatooine the first chance he got; there's no indication he had any real problems beyond the usual difficulty a small child would have after being separated from his parents. His problems letting go and his longing for his mother came out of nowhere in the middle of Episode 2.

What? He eagerly packed his bags because he thought his mom was going to. The movie blatantly shows him having trouble letting go. Remember the scene where he actually leaves his mom? He runs back to cry and says he can't do it. His mom has to talk him into going.

Exactly - that's the whole point, isn't it. You obviously have very different dramatic taste or expectations than I do, but the idea that Anakin was basically "duped" into turning to the Dark Side essentially ruined the tragedy for me. The idea of a "tragedy" is rooted in classical Greek myth, where the tragic hero would suffer great misfortune because of a fatal personal flaw; whether it was his own pride, anger, or lust for power

Like attachment issues stemming from a shitty childhood and parent figures who were taken from him or killed. Or an ambition to be a great hero and change the galaxy for the better. Or an ego that was used by the villain to manipulate him.

ultimately the hero was doomed by fate to make the wrong decision. Based on this idea, as well as Vader's redemption in the OT, I went into the Prequels expecting that Anakin turned to the Dark Side because of his own lust for power or his need to exert order and control.

He DOES have a lust for power and a desire for control in the prequels. He grew up with big dreams of becoming a superhero, like many other kids. Only for him it ran deeper, because he was a slave who wasn't in control of his life. He gets sent to the Jedi Order, where again he lives under a lot of restrictions. He has little respect for the government (he grew up on the lawless Tatooine, and he's seen how useless the Republic can be), and frequently expresses authoritarian attitudes. He's in favor of strong leadership that can push or bypass the useless Senate and do what needs to be done. Going back to his childhood dreams, he sees himself (and Palpatine) as the kind of strong leaders to do that. He blames Obi-Wan for holding him back.

Look at the way he reacts to the death of his mother:

Anakin: "Why'd she have to die? Why couldn't I save her? I know I could have."

Padme: "Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all powerful Ani."

Anakin: "Well I should be. Some day I will be. I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying."

Padme: "Anakin..."

Anakin: "It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's jealous. He's holding me back."

Again, we obviously have very different dramatic tastes. If there is no critical friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan, then where is the drama when Obi-Wan ultimately confronts Anakin for a two-hour epic lightsabre battle?

They are friends in the movies. But more so, they are father and son. It is pretty ridiculous to think that there is only one kind of close relationship, and that they had to buddy around with each other or else there's no "drama" when they finally turn on each other and fight.

TESB and ROTJ reveal only that Obi-Wan lied about Vader/Anakin's identity. There's no indication anything else was a lie. Obi-Wan had no reason to lie about his good friendship with Anakin.

He calls Anakin a "good friend" despite Anakin murdering the Jedi, helping destroy the Republic, and trying to kill him personally. Obviously he was leaving out some rather crucial events.

"A good friend." That's such an incredibly vague group of words that it means almost nothing. They certainly don't provide objective justification for any kind of critique based on whether the movies fit your idea of friendship. Anakin DOES act as "a good friend" in the prequels; he keeps saving Obi-Wan's ass in battle again and again. He's very protective, and almost endangers his missions to save people ranging from Padme to nameless clones. Soldiers talk about their "battle buddies," how they're like a "band of brothers" and all that. That's way more meaningful than some trite examples of typical "friendly" behavior. And again, Obi-Wan sees Anakin as a son or younger brother, a kid who he's been trying to raise the right way.

So even if we don't just reconcile Old Obi-Wan's words to Luke as sanitized and selective lies, we still have plenty of reasons why Old Obi-Wan might look back to Anakin as a "good friend."

...I think I've already been over all of this with you as well.

In ROTS Obi-Wan and Anakin appear to be good friends. However, in TPM Anakin doesn't exist,

Yeah, sure.

and in AOTC Anakin appears to dislike Obi-Wan for the most part, at least during their limited screen-time together.

Their FIRST scene has them buddying around in the elevator. Not much later, when Anakin's fretting over how Padme apparently doesn't care about him, Obi-Wan steps in and reassures him. Anakin also says that Obi-Wan is "like a father" to him. I know plenty of people who have said worse about their own fathers, than Anakin does about Obi-Wan in AOTC.

So even though they're friendly in ROTS, we never really see how their friendship developed or what they went through together. This really lessens the dramatic impact of Anakin's ultimate betrayal and final confrontation with Obi-Wan.

Because you apparently can't understand how fathers and sons might have strained relationships while still caring about each other.

[Channel72]

What? He eagerly packed his bags because he thought his mom was going to. The movie blatantly shows him having trouble letting go. Remember the scene where he actually leaves his mom? He runs back to cry and says he can't do it. His mom has to talk him into going.

So? He's a little kid, of course it's not going to be easy for him to leave his mommy. This hardly indicates some sort of deep personal character flaw that's going to haunt him into his adulthood.

He DOES have a lust for power and a desire for control in the prequels. He grew up with big dreams of becoming a superhero, like many other kids. Only for him it ran deeper, because he was a slave who wasn't in control of his life. He gets sent to the Jedi Order, where again he lives under a lot of restrictions. He has little respect for the government (he grew up on the lawless Tatooine, and he's seen how useless the Republic can be), and frequently expresses authoritarian attitudes. He's in favor of strong leadership that can push or bypass the useless Senate and do what needs to be done. Going back to his childhood dreams, he sees himself (and Palpatine) as the kind of strong leaders to do that. He blames Obi-Wan for holding him back.

The problem is, Anakin is basically manipulated into turning to the Dark Side. It's not entirely his own decision, and to me this lessens the tragic effect of his fall, and ultimately cheapens his redemption in ROTJ. The classical Greek tragic heros were victims of their own personalities. Nobody manipulated Achilles, it was his own pride and anger that guided his actions throughout the Iliad.

Of course, Lucas is under no obligation to follow classical archetypes, but if you're going to deviate from the dramatic expectations of the audience than you better do something which is equally compelling; and having Anakin get tricked into becoming a Sith through dubious promises simply isn't compelling to me. I suppose it could work if Anakin was set up as some sort of Faust-like character, with Palpatine as Mephistopheles, but this dynamic is hardly congruent with Vader, the fearsome Sith warlord who could probably force-choke Satan to death.

Anakin: "Why'd she have to die? Why couldn't I save her? I know I could have."

Padme: "Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all powerful Ani."

Anakin: "Well I should be. Some day I will be. I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying."

Padme: "Anakin..."

Anakin: "It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's jealous. He's holding me back."

Ugghh.... please don't quote Prequel dialogue. It makes me queasy.

"A good friend." That's such an incredibly vague group of words that it means almost nothing. They certainly don't provide objective justification for any kind of critique based on whether the movies fit your idea of friendship.

What can I say, the way Alec Guinness says that line has always conjured up images of two really close friends or war buddies who went through hell together. Yes, it's entirely subjective, but I don't claim to be able to provide "objective" evidence that Obi-Wan and Anakin should be good friends.

Anakin DOES act as "a good friend" in the prequels; he keeps saving Obi-Wan's ass in battle again and again. He's very protective, and almost endangers his missions to save people ranging from Padme to nameless clones. Soldiers talk about their "battle buddies," how they're like a "band of brothers" and all that. That's way more meaningful than some trite examples of typical "friendly" behavior. And again, Obi-Wan sees Anakin as a son or younger brother, a kid who he's been trying to raise the right way.

When does Anakin save Obi-Wan? I remember the two of them talking about instances where Anakin saved him; but I can't really recall Anakin ever actually saving him on-screen, unless you're talking about Anakin's attempted rescue on Geonosis, which wasn't really much of a rescue.

Their friendship never really rang true to me because in AOTC Anakin spends most of his time complaining about Obi-Wan. In ROTS they're clearly friends, but again, we never saw their friendship grow to that point, so it has little dramatic impact. We need something like what happened in Episode IV between Luke and Han to really cement their friendship.

[Darth Yan]

anakin blocks dooku's saber strike in episode II, and carries him away. And the manipulation would be more compelling if he and padme had any chemistry. We also never really saw the full extent of the clone wars outside the EU. And anakin was also unlikeable, and it was difficult to sympathize. He was led by lies so obvious a ten year old could have seen through.

Oh hell I'll just link up Chef Elf.
http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep1_1-10.php
http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep2_1-10.php
http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep3_1-10.php

[LopEaredGaloot]

Lucas uses story elements as silent commentary but he does so in a way which doesn't justify to us his reason for doing so, only his desire for a quick way out solution to a given plot issue. This is illegitimate tehnique for the following reasons:

The Jedi unfairly demand absolute commitment of underage disciples, 'there is no why', so of course the audience is supposed to agree with the idea that this is narrowminded because... Having commitments and attachments outside one's vocation is 'bad'?

Then why are Anakin's commitments and attachments shown to be what drives him to this horrible end? Lucas uses circular logic here which makes no sense because, by the Jedi's draconian standards, the galaxy would be a better place if they -had- rejected Anakin as too old and too set in his dependencies.

The tragic part being that Lucas thinks just a facial expression is enough to make us feel the truth in a given scene. And Jake Lloyd's notorious 'pout' doesn't do that. 'Afraid are you?' Sure. I'm being interrogated by a bunch of freaks in a situation I don't understand and I'm only nine. Duhhh.

Similarly, you have moments where this child's prodigy makes him obviously eligible for advanced training yet 'Dreams pass in time...' Obiwan doesn't recognize _precognition for what it is_. Despite the fact that, one film ago, it was Quigon that was telling him to keep his mind on the present.

All of which leads us to conclude that Schmi's death is itself the forced solution to making Anakin mad enough to kill. Because neither Jedi nor Padme` would rescue her from bondage. And Anakin -chose- not to find a way to contact her. Or to use his special abilities to save her.

Thus Padme`'s 'sometimes shit just happens' line also RINGS FALSE because no shit just happened it was DED. Deux Ex Directoris.

It's one thing for a story teller not to explain every detail in the hopes we will use our own imaginations to get what he's trying to say. But Lucas does too many things for the convenience of pushing his story -because- he doesn't have a bit of skill as a dialogueist. You cannot leave an either/or interpretative option to the viewer when the reality is an agenda of making the story advance towards a fixed outcome without allowing any real 'wait a minute, what kind of dreams are these...?' subjective insight by the mute characters.

And for those who think that Anakin is Obiwan's friend, look at the expression on his face when he wishes his old Master goodbye before taking off for Utapau. At that point, it's clear that Obiwan is so entirely clueless that he doesn't even see the manipulative grin or quietly measured contempt in Anakin's eyes. And other than as a cue that 'It's time for things to explode for NO REASON' (Anakin is triumphant at this point) we still don't know why.

Because we don't know -who- this man is. As Christiansen is the result of Lloyd's razzy award, so too is new Anakin an entirely different character who is never properly developed after Lucas has burnt 2hrs of screenlight dorking about with a kid character that is such an annoyance because he clearly hasn't a clue what he's doing. Or why.

This, along with Lucas' terrible dialogue skills, is why we are introduced to a fully developed sociopath awaiting his first schizoid break to go full on psychotic.

The sadness for me is that I don't think it happened on Tatooine with the Tuskens. Because that was combat in a failed hostage rescue mission.

And yet I don't see a sign of it in the separate character of Little Anakin either.

So we are left with a man-with-no-history scenario and expected to just suck it up, on the fly.

That's just bad story telling.


LEG

[Knife]

Uhm, Anakin saved Obi Wan from falling to death on Coruscant, blocked Dooku's blade from chopping Obi Wan in half on Geonosis, attempted (but failed) to save him initially on Geonosis, picked up the unconscious Obi Wan on Grevious's warship and carried him down the elevator shaft in the doomed ship, landed the doomed ship with Obi Wan aboard. That's five, four successful, saves in two movies.

[Srelex]

Oh hell I'll just link up Chef Elf.
http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep1_1-10.php
http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep2_1-10.php
http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep3_1-10.php

Come on, half are those are nitpicking. The titles? Wording in the scrawls? The ARC fighters having six wings? It's like the Distressed Fatass and that blogger moron again.

[Jim Raynor]

So? He's a little kid, of course it's not going to be easy for him to leave his mommy. This hardly indicates some sort of deep personal character flaw that's going to haunt him into his adulthood.

When TPM makes a point of having Yoda blatantly talk about how filled with fear he is, when he's a slave boy who grew up with little besides his mom, when his father figure is prematurely killed off, when he's kept away from his mom due to Jedi doctrines about detachment, when she dies again the next time he sees her, and when Anakin makes it blatant that he wants to do whatever he can to protect his loved ones, I think it shows Anakin having deeper attachment issues than the normal person.

The problem is, Anakin is basically manipulated into turning to the Dark Side. It's not entirely his own decision, and to me this lessens the tragic effect of his fall, and ultimately cheapens his redemption in ROTJ. The classical Greek tragic heros were victims of their own personalities. Nobody manipulated Achilles, it was his own pride and anger that guided his actions throughout the Iliad.

He's vulnerable to manipulation precisely because of his own attachment issues, his fear of loss, and his messiah complex. And famous works of tragedy have been written that included villainous manipulators.

Ugghh.... please don't quote Prequel dialogue. It makes me queasy.

The point was to show Anakin's desire for self determination, as well as his lust for power, things that you said you expected.

What can I say, the way Alec Guinness says that line has always conjured up images of two really close friends or war buddies who went through hell together. Yes, it's entirely subjective, but I don't claim to be able to provide "objective" evidence that Obi-Wan and Anakin should be good friends.

Obi-Wan sounds a bit wistful when he says "and he was a good friend," and that's it. Anakin was gone and was running around as the evil Vader by then. Obi-Wan didn't even linger on it; he immediately moved on to giving Luke a lightsaber. So yeah, it's completely subjective. I don't hold it against movies when they don't follow a completely subjective and unsupported perception. Especially when the movies reasonably follow it anyway, given how vague "a good friend" is.

When does Anakin save Obi-Wan? I remember the two of them talking about instances where Anakin saved him; but I can't really recall Anakin ever actually saving him on-screen, unless you're talking about Anakin's attempted rescue on Geonosis, which wasn't really much of a rescue.

Knife brought up the examples.

Their friendship never really rang true to me because in AOTC Anakin spends most of his time complaining about Obi-Wan. In ROTS they're clearly friends, but again, we never saw their friendship grow to that point, so it has little dramatic impact. We need something like what happened in Episode IV between Luke and Han to really cement their friendship.

The early ROTS relationship is the AOTC relationship but a bit more positive. They talked like that and joked a few times in AOTC as well. Again, this whole buddy-buddy "friendship" that you seem to want is not needed or supported by previous material. The dominant relationship is father/son.

[Jim Raynor]

Oh hell I'll just link up Chef Elf.
http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep1_1-10.php
http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep2_1-10.php
http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep3_1-10.php

Come on, half are those are nitpicking. The titles? Wording in the scrawls? The ARC fighters having six wings? It's like the Distressed Fatass and that blogger moron again.

I stopped taking this guy seriously as soon as he said that "Disturbance in the Force" is a better title than "The Phantom Menace," because TPM sounds too much like cheap "sci-fi." As if "The Empire Strikes Back" doesn't evoke pulp entertainment. I skimmed a couple paragraphs down and saw him bitching about how he had no idea why Obi-Wan would say that "I have a bad feeling about this" catchphrase, despite boarding a possibly hostile ship for secret negotiations.

Nerds like this are pathetic, and more evidence that fanboy obsession doesn't equate to actual intelligence. They fancy themselves as smart critics, when in fact they're just producing nitpicky, padded-out garbage that can't stand up to even a casual analysis.

[Channel72]

When TPM makes a point of having Yoda blatantly talk about how filled with fear he is, when he's a slave boy who grew up with little besides his mom, when his father figure is prematurely killed off, when he's kept away from his mom due to Jedi doctrines about detachment, when she dies again the next time he sees her, and when Anakin makes it blatant that he wants to do whatever he can to protect his loved ones, I think it shows Anakin having deeper attachment issues than the normal person.

No, it only reveals the contrived absurdity of Prequel Jedi doctrine. Anyone who grows up with only their mother is likely to be deeply affected if they are separated from their mother as a small child. None of this demonstrates any kind of tragic character flaw in Anakin.

I see what Lucas was going for: Anakin's fear of losing loved ones ultimately led to his downfall, I get it. But it's so damn contrived; it's not tragic in the classic sense. Anakin only turned to the Dark Side because 1) he was bound by an absolutely absurd and totally contrived fanatical Jedi doctrine which prohibited him from ever even seeing his mother, and 2) he was manipulated by a scheming politician who made some vague promise about preventing people from dying.

Where exactly is the tragic character flaw here? And what's the moral message? Don't join a fanatical cult that cuts you off from your loved ones? Don't let yourself get manipulated by a conniving politician? Lucas seems more interested in emphasizing flaws in his fictional "system" than personal flaws in his characters.

If I were to redo the Prequels, Anakin would fall to the Dark Side on his own accord; he would have a tragic character flaw in the form of the need to exert order in a war-torn Republic, combined with the allure of power. This flaw would be the primary reason for his turn to the Dark Side, just like his love for Luke was the primary reason behind his redemption.

The point was to show Anakin's desire for self determination, as well as his lust for power, things that you said you expected.

As it stands, Anakin's personal lust for power seems to have played only a supporting role in his fall. Again, the primary reasons for his fall were contrived things like silly Jedi doctrine and being manipulated by Space-Machiavelli.

Obi-Wan sounds a bit wistful when he says "and he was a good friend," and that's it.

I think Obi-Wan also said Anakin was his good friend in ROTJ.

Anakin was gone and was running around as the evil Vader by then. Obi-Wan didn't even linger on it; he immediately moved on to giving Luke a lightsaber. So yeah, it's completely subjective. I don't hold it against movies when they don't follow a completely subjective and unsupported perception. Especially when the movies reasonably follow it anyway, given how vague "a good friend" is.

I hold it against the Prequels because without the critical Anakin/Obi-Wan friendship, where's the dramatic impact when Anakin ultimately betrays Obi-Wan and the two ignite their lightsabres in a battle to the death? Obi-Wan's sobbing outburst as Anakin slowly burns is only powerful because they were (supposed to be) good friends. "You were like a brother to me!"

Honestly, are you really telling me these two weren't supposed to be good friends?

Knife brought up the examples.

Fair enough, I'll concede that point.

The early ROTS relationship is the AOTC relationship but a bit more positive. They talked like that and joked a few times in AOTC as well. Again, this whole buddy-buddy "friendship" that you seem to want is not needed or supported by previous material. The dominant relationship is father/son.

The AOTC relationship is very different than the ROTS relationship. While there is some limited sense of camaraderie in AOTC, (mostly during their elevator chat in the beginning) the duo spend most of their time angry at each other. Obi-Wan is angry at Anakin because he's a petulant little shithead, and Anakin is constantly whining about Obi-Wan behind his back. In ROTS, Anakin is much more mature and the two of them seem to be on much better terms. But whatever ultimately made these two really bond must have happened off screen sometime during the Clone Wars.

[Channel72]

I skimmed a couple paragraphs down and saw him bitching about how he had no idea why Obi-Wan would say that "I have a bad feeling about this" catchphrase, despite boarding a possibly hostile ship for secret negotiations.

Um...he's complaining that this "wink to the audience" is way too in-your-face, since it's the first damn thing Obi-Wan says in the entire film.

[Jim Raynor]

No, it only reveals the contrived absurdity of Prequel Jedi doctrine.

The Jedi are extremely careful not to even skirt the Dark Side, because Force sensitives are in fact vulnerable to losing control to it. The Jedi are also a bunch of conservative control freaks, and things like growing up outside and being influenced by others don't really fit with that. Explain how this is "contrived."

Anyone who grows up with only their mother is likely to be deeply affected if they are separated from their mother as a small child. None of this demonstrates any kind of tragic character flaw in Anakin.

[/quote]

Obviously not everyone grows up with as a slave with only their mother. Or has their kindly father figure murdered. Or dreams to be a great hero (including setting things right for slaves and downtrodden people like himself), which is reinforced by people telling him that he is the "Chosen One." Which he actually is, and has the raw Force powers to prove it, none of which matters to the overbearing mentor that he's stuck with, who still treats him with distrust.

I see what Lucas was going for: Anakin's fear of losing loved ones ultimately led to his downfall, I get it. But it's so damn contrived; it's not tragic in the classic sense. Anakin only turned to the Dark Side because 1) he was bound by an absolutely absurd and totally contrived fanatical Jedi doctrine which prohibited him from ever even seeing his mother, and 2) he was manipulated by a scheming politician who made some vague promise about preventing people from dying.

3) A desire to take control of his own life after suffering tragedies and being controlled by others throughout all his life.
4) A messiah complex going back to his boyhood dreams of righting the wrongs that he suffered, and reinforced by the Republic's dysfunction and his actual Force powers

Where exactly is the tragic character flaw here?

Ego, over attachment, simplistic authoritarian attitudes, an unwillingness to let go of the pains of his past and move on.

And what's the moral message? Don't join a fanatical cult that cuts you off from your loved ones? Don't let yourself get manipulated by a conniving politician?

I think I have explained this multiple times in this very thread already. Are you even reading?

From Anakin:
-Be in control of your negative emotions. Don't let them fester and eventually transform you. Learn to move on.
-Forceful, overly simplistic solutions aren't the way (made explicit in ROTS when Obi-Wan says "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!")

From Obi-Wan and the other Jedi:
-Be open minded, instead of a slave to tradition.
-Be kind to people and believe in them.

As it stands, Anakin's personal lust for power seems to have played only a supporting role in his fall.

No, they made it blatant. Anakin talks about the need for strong leadership that can get things done because the Senate is useless. He talks about wanting to be the most powerful Jedi ever, finding ways to even stop people from dying. Palpatine tempts him with forbidden power. Saving Padme is directly tied with his desire for power. On Mustafar, Anakin shows himself to be absolutely power hungry, talking about overthrowing Palpatine and controlling the galaxy so that everything would be the way he wants it.

I think Obi-Wan also said Anakin was his good friend in ROTJ.

Provide the quote, then show how it says so much more than a guy in fact being his friend, as well as his son, and saving his ass in battle numerous times.

I hold it against the Prequels because without the critical Anakin/Obi-Wan friendship, where's the dramatic impact when Anakin ultimately betrays Obi-Wan and the two ignite their lightsabres in a battle to the death? Obi-Wan's sobbing outburst as Anakin slowly burns is only powerful because they were (supposed to be) good friends. "You were like a brother to me!"

I've gone over this numerous times. They are father and son. That's also openly stated onscreen. Obviously they're not an actual father and son, and the age difference isn't as big as is usual. Obi-Wan still sees himself as a mentor. If they were like brothers, then it was big brother and little brother. Which is more of the same thing.

The AOTC relationship is very different than the ROTS relationship. While there is some limited sense of camaraderie in AOTC, (mostly during their elevator chat in the beginning) the duo spend most of their time angry at each other. Obi-Wan is angry at Anakin because he's a petulant little shithead, and Anakin is constantly whining about Obi-Wan behind his back.

Even during the Coruscant chase scene, when Obi-Wan is scared by Anakin's crazy antics, he's not even "angry." The talk directly to each other, like two people who know each other very well, including each other's flaws. Anakin is even having fun and jokes with Obi-Wan; Obi-Wan gets in a few sarcastic words on his end as well.

And how many times does Anakin even whine about Obi-Wan? Once, when he's alone with Padme in her room. Then another time, when he's obviously in a great deal of emotional distress because of the death of his mother. Are there any other examples?

And again, I know real people who have said FAR worse about their own fathers than what Anakin said about Obi-Wan. Your dad is overbearing, overly critical, and holds you back? That's what every teenager in the world probably thought at some point.

[Jim Raynor]

I skimmed a couple paragraphs down and saw him bitching about how he had no idea why Obi-Wan would say that "I have a bad feeling about this" catchphrase, despite boarding a possibly hostile ship for secret negotiations.

Um...he's complaining that this "wink to the audience" is way too in-your-face, since it's the first damn thing Obi-Wan says in the entire film.

He says that he had no idea what was going on at that point, despite the opening text telling him so. Later, he bitches about Qui-Gon trying to cut through a metal door with his lightsaber, instead of pressing the button to open it. He compares this to Luke dropping a door on the Rancor by throwing a rock onto the switch that he had a clear line of sight onto. So apparently, this fanboy couldn't understand that the door in TPM was probably locked from the inside, that Qui-Gon couldn't see through the door, and that the door was probably remotely controlled by security systems anyway.

He also bitches about the Jedi having small underwater breathing devices, thinking that it's an inconsistency that they can have that but not have the tools to repair a starship that's been shot the hell up. Which is dumb because they weren't lacking tools, but major parts. That's like bitching out a Navy SEAL for not carrying all the tools, supplies, and parts needed to fix a heavily damaged airplane.

Showing that his bitching isn't confined to the prequels, he complains about Obi-Wan having that small training droid that Luke practiced his lightsaber blocking with in ANH. He questions why Han would have that onboard the Millenium Falcon. I don't know, I always assumed that the droid was Obi-Wan's, and that he had a basic Jedi training aid, being a Jedi and all that.

The guy's an incredible dumbass, just going off of the first page that I've skimmed through. It's yet another lousy fan critique, written by a guy who obsesses over the movies but can't so much as think straight.

[Darth Yan]

Some of the points were legit (how midichlorians are rubbish, how padme is able to get up without a broken spine despite the fact that she fell at least 20 feet from a moving craft, how similar the obi jango fight was to the fight between dash and boba in shadows of the empire right down to were the slave one starts shooting at jango, and how the fight to get rid of the buzz droid is similar to star fox). He has acknowledged that it's just his opinion and has no problem with people liking the prequals. and taxation of trade routes is pretty god damn stupid. Plus he fully stated that it was for comedy. He also felt that the prophecy story had been done to death. And anakin's actions to save Padme would be more believable if they had any real chemistry. And as said before WHY DO YOU DEFEND ANAKIN'S CREEPY PICK UP LINES? I've been in high school and i've tried to win girls. those lines would make them think you were a creep.

[Darth Yan]

Ok, sorry about the last post. I do get a lot of what you are saying, but I disagree on a few things.

1.) Anakin and Padme's romance was utterly implausible. His lines were creepy, her body language indicated that she wasn't attracted at all, and there was no indication at all that she was in love. Granted, it could have been due to the fact that Hayden Christiansan and Natalie Portman did a horrible job and had no real chemistry, and as such would have been unable to make the scene work, but that's pushing it.

[quote="Jim Raynor]
Padme stares at him, and says things like how he's making her feel uncomfortable. Those scenes could be read either way, with one explanation being that she's tempted but rejects him out of a sense of duty (which she makes explicit during that scene on Naboo, when talks about how tortured he is). By the time they're on the ship to Naboo, alone, she stops trying to fight against his advances. I do think that the first kiss did come across as too fast and felt forced though.
[/quote]

WHAT THE HELL? Anakin's lines during that scene says he has dreams about her; that would make any girl creeped out enough to demand a restraining order.

2.) People do undergo massive changes when they grow up. I am nowhere near as awkard and niave about the world then I was 10 years ago; People change far more then you give them credit for. Anakin does not portray any admirable qualities about him in episode 2. He's whiny, he's petulant, he's creepy, and he's wildly inconsistent at times. And Christianson's bad acting doesn't help.

3.) We don't actually see the full extent of the clone wars. We see a few battles and that's it. We don't see the meaty, gritty galaxy wide conflict we were promised. The average guy who didn't read the eu might potentially be let down

4.) Anakin as a kid is wierd only because the knowledge that he and padme will marry and do the dirty just seems really wrong in comparison.

You are entitled to your opinion and I do agree with you on alot; but I do think you are bit too eager to defend the prequals.

[Channel72]

The Jedi are extremely careful not to even skirt the Dark Side, because Force sensitives are in fact vulnerable to losing control to it. The Jedi are also a bunch of conservative control freaks, and things like growing up outside and being influenced by others don't really fit with that. Explain how this is "contrived."

It's contrived because it places artificial obstacles in front of Anakin, just like the "no romantic involvement" rule. I'd much rather see Anakin turn to the Dark Side because of his own personal flaws and bad decisions than be led there by an overtly rigid Jedi order and a scheming politician.

Where exactly is the tragic character flaw here?

Ego, over attachment, simplistic authoritarian attitudes, an unwillingness to let go of the pains of his past and move on.

In other words, Anakin's motivations are basically a soup of half-baked ideas and inconsistently emphasized personal issues. You might claim this is more realistic, but it's certainly not more dramatic or tragic. How about we keep this simple and just make Anakin a decent man who feels the need to impose order on a chaotic and war-torn Republic. He turns to Palpatine for an easy and satisfying way to accomplish this, end of story. No need for ridiculous Jedi doctrine or Anakin falling for a Nigerian email scam vague promise about saving Padme.

I think I have explained this multiple times in this very thread already. Are you even reading?

From Anakin:
-Be in control of your negative emotions. Don't let them fester and eventually transform you. Learn to move on.
-Forceful, overly simplistic solutions aren't the way (made explicit in ROTS when Obi-Wan says "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!")

From Obi-Wan and the other Jedi:
-Be open minded, instead of a slave to tradition.
-Be kind to people and believe in them.

Whatever messages you extract here are mostly half-assed or just plain lost in a sloppy execution. Being in control of negative emotions is a common theme to all of Star Wars, but the message about simplistic solutions is hardly there. Anakin turned to the Dark Side because he thought Dark Side force powers would enable him to save Padme, not because he thought it was a solution to the ills of the Republic. And while I'll admit that there is definitely an underlying theme regarding Anakin's need to forcefully impose order (as evidenced by his conversations with Padme on Naboo, as well as his power-trip rant on Mustafar), the theme is simply deflated by the fact that Anakin turned to the dark side based on bad information, NOT because he was looking for an easy solution to all of life's problems.

You said it best yourself: [Turning to the Dark Side] was so much of [Anakin's] "own" decision that Palpatine played him for a chump and manipulated him like a puppet...

I think Obi-Wan also said Anakin was his good friend in ROTJ.

Provide the quote, then show how it says so much more than a guy in fact being his friend, as well as his son, and saving his ass in battle numerous times.

Here's the quote.

What do you mean "show how it says so much more..."? I'm not claiming that the OT depicted more of the Anakin/Obi-Wan friendship than the PT.

I've gone over this numerous times. They are father and son. That's also openly stated onscreen. Obviously they're not an actual father and son, and the age difference isn't as big as is usual. Obi-Wan still sees himself as a mentor. If they were like brothers, then it was big brother and little brother. Which is more of the same thing.

In AOTC they have a mentor/apprentice relationship, or as you put it, a father-son relationship. In ROTS they are more like good buddies.

Even during the Coruscant chase scene, when Obi-Wan is scared by Anakin's crazy antics, he's not even "angry." The talk directly to each other, like two people who know each other very well, including each other's flaws. Anakin is even having fun and jokes with Obi-Wan; Obi-Wan gets in a few sarcastic words on his end as well.

And how many times does Anakin even whine about Obi-Wan? Once, when he's alone with Padme in her room. Then another time, when he's obviously in a great deal of emotional distress because of the death of his mother. Are there any other examples?

How many times does he have to whine before it counts for something? Twice is enough in a ~2 hour movie. Again, Anakin's betrayal and battle with Obi-Wan in ROTS doesn't hurt nearly as much as it should, because they were only really shown to be good friends for half of one movie. Worse, we never really saw their friendship evolve or grow through on-screen events.

You can make fun of this "Chef elf" guy all you want, but he's dead-on with one of his points:

After they crash-land the cruiser on Coruscant, Obi-Wan and Anakin have a friendly scene where they are all chummy and joking. They have a sickening exchange where each is complimenting the other for the mission's success. This is all clearly laying the groundwork to make Anakin's fall to the dark side actually sting given that Anakin and Obi-Wan had no rapport in the previous two films.

[Jim Raynor]

It's contrived because it places artificial obstacles in front of Anakin, just like the "no romantic involvement" rule. I'd much rather see Anakin turn to the Dark Side because of his own personal flaws and bad decisions than be led there by an overtly rigid Jedi order and a scheming politician.

How is it artificial? Complacent group-think and an adherence to tradition are real things that happen to real organizations. The Jedi are also supposed to be warrior monks, which is where that "no marriage" thing comes from.

In other words, Anakin's motivations are basically a soup of half-baked ideas and inconsistently emphasized personal issues.

Your big gripe is that Anakin ought to have a tragic flaw, then when I point out MULTIPLE tragic flaws you dismiss them as "half-baked ideas and inconsistently emphasized personal issues." Without explaining why they're inconsistent. In a real discussion, people are supposed to actually address each other's points. You've clearly made up your mind already.

[qutoe]You might claim this is more realistic, but it's certainly not more dramatic or tragic. How about we keep this simple and just make Anakin a decent man who feels the need to impose order on a chaotic and war-torn Republic. He turns to Palpatine for an easy and satisfying way to accomplish this, end of story.

Which is what DID happen!

Anakin falling for a Nigerian email scam vague promise about saving Padme.

Anakin was desperate, the Jedi was legitimately close-minded, and Palpatine simply dangled a forbidden world of power before him. The movies never try to say Anakin was logical, his decisions were driven by emotion and ambition.

Whatever messages you extract here are mostly half-assed or just plain lost in a sloppy execution. Being in control of negative emotions is a common theme to all of Star Wars, but the message about simplistic solutions is hardly there.

Yeah, like when Anakin says the galaxy needs a strong leader who just gets things done, and Padme says that sounds like a dictator. When the Queen of Naboo talks about believing in democracy. When Padme talks about democracy falling with "thunderous applause" after the Senators cheer on Palpatine while he declares himself Emperor and promises them security. When Anakin gets drunk on power and boasts about how he can secure the galaxy and form it according to his own wishes. And when Obi-Wan clearly calls Anakin out on that. The message is quite there; if anything the movies make it blatant.

Anakin turned to the Dark Side because he thought Dark Side force powers would enable him to save Padme, not because he thought it was a solution to the ills of the Republic. And while I'll admit that there is definitely an underlying theme regarding Anakin's need to forcefully impose order (as evidenced by his conversations with Padme on Naboo, as well as his power-trip rant on Mustafar), the theme is simply deflated by the fact that Anakin turned to the dark side based on bad information, NOT because he was looking for an easy solution to all of life's problems.

Again,

Padme: "Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all powerful Ani."

Anakin: "Well I should be. Some day I will be. I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying.

Anakin's answer to solving life's problems is power. Fundamentally, he's someone who wants to be in control. He doesn't listen to something as simple and true as "You're not all powerful."

You said it best yourself: [Turning to the Dark Side] was so much of [Anakin's] "own" decision that Palpatine played him for a chump and manipulated him like a puppet...

And I also said it myself, that he was vulnerable to this manipulation precisely because of his own personal flaws.

What do you mean "show how it says so much more..."? I'm not claiming that the OT depicted more of the Anakin/Obi-Wan friendship than the PT.

No, but you've clearly always thought that a few measly lines spoken at the tail end of a sentence, moments before Obi-Wan quickly jumped at the chance to give Luke his first lightsaber to play with, implied some kind of deep friendship that must be expressed onscreen with stereotypical buddy-buddy joking. When the prequels easily show something that more than that: father and son as well as war buddies.

In AOTC they have a mentor/apprentice relationship, or as you put it, a father-son relationship. In ROTS they are more like good buddies.

And Obi-Wan is still the mentor, and even older brothers are basically playing a mentor/father role for younger brothers.

How many times does he have to whine before it counts for something? Twice is enough in a ~2 hour movie.

Yeah, two times when he says things that most teenagers say all the time about their own fathers, one time while angry and under a great deal of distress. Going by your logic, most fathers and sons don't care about each other. I've seen plenty of examples, in both real life AND in various movies, of fathers and sons bitching each other out worse than that.

You can make fun of this "Chef elf" guy all you want,

LOL, you actually read through all of that garbage? We're talking about a guy who can't comprehend the idea of doors locking from the inside.

but he's dead-on with one of his points:

After they crash-land the cruiser on Coruscant, Obi-Wan and Anakin have a friendly scene where they are all chummy and joking. They have a sickening exchange where each is complimenting the other for the mission's success. This is all clearly laying the groundwork to make Anakin's fall to the dark side actually sting given that Anakin and Obi-Wan had no rapport in the previous two films.

Yeah, all laying the groundwork...when AOTC already established a father/son relationship, and the entire first half hour of ROTS showed numerous and better examples of Anakin caring for Obi-Wan. Including standing up to Palpatine when Palpatine tells him to abandon Obi-Wan, saying "His fate will be our own." Yeah, not seeing much of an improvement there.

[Jim Raynor]

Some of the points were legit (how midichlorians are rubbish,

OK

how padme is able to get up without a broken spine despite the fact that she fell at least 20 feet from a moving craft,

Does he complain about every action movie? I've seen worse so many times, without people getting to roll on sand.

how similar the obi jango fight was to the fight between dash and boba in shadows of the empire right down to were the slave one starts shooting at jango,

I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with this EU (video game?) scene, nor do I give a crap about it.

and how the fight to get rid of the buzz droid is similar to star fox).

And this is an actual video game. And I'm actually familiar with Star Fox...yet I don't remember anything like this at all. Please don't tell me he's not even talking about a famous installment like Star Fox 64, but some freaking obscure spinoff. WOW, can this guy get any more dorky?

and taxation of trade routes is pretty god damn stupid.

It's a brief MacGuffin reason (based on ways that actual conflicts have happened in history) that has nothing to do with the main plot.

Plus he fully stated that it was for comedy.

Comedy falls apart when the guy trying to point out the stupidity is in fact an even bigger moron himself. Unless we're supposed to be laughing at him (which isn't what it looks like)...which in any case means his critique is trash.

And as said before WHY DO YOU DEFEND ANAKIN'S CREEPY PICK UP LINES? I've been in high school and i've tried to win girls. those lines would make them think you were a creep.

I said earlier that "The love lines in AOTC were pretty bad."

WHAT THE HELL? Anakin's lines during that scene says he has dreams about her; that would make any girl creeped out enough to demand a restraining order.

All I said was to dispute the claim that Padme outright rejected him in those early scenes, and that her reaction could be read either way. I didn't defend the quality of the lines.

2.) People do undergo massive changes when they grow up. I am nowhere near as awkard and niave about the world then I was 10 years ago; People change far more then you give them credit for.

Obviously people change, I'm not disputing that. People also carry on some personality traits throughout their entire lives. Anakin DOES change from Episode I to Episode II, but those changes can also be traced through his childhood experiences.

Anakin does not portray any admirable qualities about him in episode 2. He's whiny, he's petulant, he's creepy, and he's wildly inconsistent at times. And Christianson's bad acting doesn't help.

He's brave, protective, cares about making things better for people in the galaxy, and he saves people's butts in battle. I'm not telling you to like him, because whether he's likable is pure opinion. The movie clearly intended to portray him as extremely flawed. But it's an exaggeration to say that he "does not portray any admirable qualities."

3.) We don't actually see the full extent of the clone wars. We see a few battles and that's it. We don't see the meaty, gritty galaxy wide conflict we were promised. The average guy who didn't read the eu might potentially be let down

The same could be said for the war in the original trilogy. We saw a few battles in the Outer Rim. The average person also doesn't really care about the idea of "The Clone Wars." It's the fanboys who elevated a passing reference in ANH to this great mythical conflict.

You are entitled to your opinion and I do agree with you on alot; but I do think you are bit too eager to defend the prequals.

I simply watched and understood the movies, and I'm pointing out the omissions, exaggerations, and misinterpretations that I'm seeing.

[Channel72]

How is it artificial? Complacent group-think and an adherence to tradition are real things that happen to real organizations. The Jedi are also supposed to be warrior monks, which is where that "no marriage" thing comes from.

I'll address this below.

Your big gripe is that Anakin ought to have a tragic flaw, then when I point out MULTIPLE tragic flaws you dismiss them as "half-baked ideas and inconsistently emphasized personal issues." Without explaining why they're inconsistent. In a real discussion, people are supposed to actually address each other's points. You've clearly made up your mind already.

No, my big gripe is that Anakin's turn to the Dark Side is not a direct result of any tragic character flaw; rather it is triggered by Palpatine's planting a dream in Anakin's head, deceiving him into becoming a Sith.

You've pointed out Anakin's various personal flaws. While these flaws certainly contributed to his downfall, (by making him receptive to manipulation), ultimately it was still manipulation rather than a straightforward, conscious decision to turn to evil. This is a completely valid criticism, because the OT is all about Luke's faith that there is still good left in Vader. But if Anakin's choice to turn to evil becomes diluted by other factors (Palpatine's manipulation), then ultimately Vader's sudden choice to do good by saving his son's life is less powerful.

Furthermore, ROTJ builds up to the moment when Luke defiantly looks the Emperor in the face and says, "Never! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." In other words, Luke makes a self-imposed, straightforward choice to refuse evil, in contrast to his father, who (should have) made a self-imposed, straightforward choice to turn to evil. Again, the symmetry is lost and the significance of Luke's defiance is now somewhat lessened since his father's submission to evil was not entirely his own doing.

Finally, (and probably least significantly), the whole idea of a deceived Anakin really detracts from the idea that Anakin Skywalker is a tragic figure, in the classic sense. If the Iliad were written so that Achilles was tricked into refusing to fight, instead of refusing to fight because of his own anger and pride, it would be a much less powerful story.

Yeah, like when Anakin says the galaxy needs a strong leader who just gets things done, and Padme says that sounds like a dictator. When the Queen of Naboo talks about believing in democracy. When Padme talks about democracy falling with "thunderous applause" after the Senators cheer on Palpatine while he declares himself Emperor and promises them security. When Anakin gets drunk on power and boasts about how he can secure the galaxy and form it according to his own wishes. And when Obi-Wan clearly calls Anakin out on that. The message is quite there; if anything the movies make it blatant.

There are basically two factors which contribute to Anakin's downfall: his fear of losing loved ones and his need for power and control. Lucas tried to blend the two in such a way that Anakin's fear of loss drove him to seek power, at any cost.

In my opinion, this blending of the two themes was executed very erratically, which is why I still say that Anakin's motivations come off as a messy soup of half-baked ideas. Anakin's lust for power was really only incidental compared to his fear of loss. Ultimately, he saved Palpatine from Mace Windu because he wanted Palpatine alive at all costs so he might save Padme. He abandoned the Jedi order and went on a killing spree so that he might save Padme. His entire motivation for turning to evil was fear of losing Padme. So how does his lust for power and need to exert control factor into any of this? It really doesn't; it first appears on Naboo when Anakin talks to Padme about dictatorships, and then clumsily reappears when Anakin starts ranting on Mustafar. It's not seamlessly integrated as a relevant factor contributing to Anakin's turn to evil.

You'll recall that this conversation began when I said that Phantom Menace was a waste of time. I stand by that statement, and now hopefully you can see why. The entire "fear of loss" angle, along with all the associated baggage such as the rigid Jedi Order or the forbidden romance, isn't even necessary for a really great tragedy. In order to provide symmetry with the OT all we needed was for Anakin to choose to turn to evil on his own accord. The inclusion of all these other elements simply diluted this decision, and as a result severely detracted from the tragedy.

Since the only real purpose of Phantom Menace (besides selling shit to kids) was to introduce Anakin's fear of losing loved ones, I find the entire movie unnecessary and ultimately detrimental to the saga as a whole, because it forced Lucas to compress the more interesting elements, such as Anakin's friendship with Obi-Wan and the Clone Wars.

No, but you've clearly always thought that a few measly lines spoken at the tail end of a sentence, moments before Obi-Wan quickly jumped at the chance to give Luke his first lightsaber to play with, implied some kind of deep friendship that must be expressed onscreen with stereotypical buddy-buddy joking. When the prequels easily show something that more than that: father and son as well as war buddies.

The Prequels show that the two of them were friends, but only in the first half of the last movie. Even then, we never really see any crucial, formative events which cemented their friendship. This is probably a result of the fact that Lucas had to rush through the critical plot elements in Episode 2 and 3, since he squandered Episode 1 on unnecessary material.

Yeah, two times when he says things that most teenagers say all the time about their own fathers, one time while angry and under a great deal of distress. Going by your logic, most fathers and sons don't care about each other. I've seen plenty of examples, in both real life AND in various movies, of fathers and sons bitching each other out worse than that.

I know fathers and sons aren't always on the best of terms. But at the end of the day the filmmaker is responsible for leaving the audience with an impression. I certainly didn't get the impression that Anakin and Obi-Wan really liked each other after watching TPM or AOTC. It seems that Obi-Wan tolerates Anakin, and Anakin is simply resentful of Obi-Wan. There's never a moment when Obi-Wan comes off as tender, or genuinely affectionate towards his son/disciple. This is probably due, to some extent, to the overall problem of wooden acting that plagues the Prequels.

LOL, you actually read through all of that garbage? We're talking about a guy who can't comprehend the idea of doors locking from the inside.

What can I say, I find him funny. Many of his points are overly nitpicky, but a lot of it is tongue-in-cheek.

Yeah, all laying the groundwork...when AOTC already established a father/son relationship, and the entire first half hour of ROTS showed numerous and better examples of Anakin caring for Obi-Wan. Including standing up to Palpatine when Palpatine tells him to abandon Obi-Wan, saying "His fate will be our own." Yeah, not seeing much of an improvement there.

As I said, in ROTS the two are definitely portrayed as friends. The problem is at that point it's basically too little too late.

[Jim Raynor]

How is it artificial? Complacent group-think and an adherence to tradition are real things that happen to real organizations. The Jedi are also supposed to be warrior monks, which is where that "no marriage" thing comes from.

I'll address this below.

You said that you would get to explaining how the Jedi's adherence to doctrine was "artificial," and then you don't.

Your big gripe is that Anakin ought to have a tragic flaw, then when I point out MULTIPLE tragic flaws you dismiss them as "half-baked ideas and inconsistently emphasized personal issues." Without explaining why they're inconsistent. In a real discussion, people are supposed to actually address each other's points. You've clearly made up your mind already.

No, my big gripe is that Anakin's turn to the Dark Side is not a direct result of any tragic character flaw; rather it is triggered by Palpatine's planting a dream in Anakin's head, deceiving him into becoming a Sith.

He's clearly already turning to the Dark Side by AOTC, with that whole thing about slaughtering an entire village out of vengeance and rage.

You've pointed out Anakin's various personal flaws. While these flaws certainly contributed to his downfall, (by making him receptive to manipulation), ultimately it was still manipulation rather than a straightforward, conscious decision to turn to evil. This is a completely valid criticism, because the OT is all about Luke's faith that there is still good left in Vader. But if Anakin's choice to turn to evil becomes diluted by other factors (Palpatine's manipulation), then ultimately Vader's sudden choice to do good by saving his son's life is less powerful.

Furthermore, ROTJ builds up to the moment when Luke defiantly looks the Emperor in the face and says, "Never! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." In other words, Luke makes a self-imposed, straightforward choice to refuse evil, in contrast to his father, who (should have) made a self-imposed, straightforward choice to turn to evil. Again, the symmetry is lost and the significance of Luke's defiance is now somewhat lessened since his father's submission to evil was not entirely his own doing.

The "symmetry" is Luke being in control of his emotions, while Anakin wasn't. And I don't see how the significance of Luke's actions are lessened, when his father was plotting against Palpatine as early as ROTS, and was running around evil for decades up to that point.

Finally, (and probably least significantly), the whole idea of a deceived Anakin really detracts from the idea that Anakin Skywalker is a tragic figure, in the classic sense. If the Iliad were written so that Achilles was tricked into refusing to fight, instead of refusing to fight because of his own anger and pride, it would be a much less powerful story.

Anakin is not "tricked" into being evil. He's manipulated into evil with false promises, but he still makes the evil choice. That's like saying someone was merely tricked into becoming a criminal for a cash reward that doesn't exist, when the point is he decided to go bad for money.

Furthermore, you've taken this whole thing about characters having to make a "straightforward choice" too far, in contradiction to the actual material. One of Star Wars's major themes is the need to resist fear, hate and anger; emotions that are insidious and can take control of you if you're not careful. The Jedi and the Force are metaphors for real people and their emotions. It is made clear in the original trilogy that just as a Jedi can use the Force, the Force can also control a Jedi. This is much more likely with the Dark Side, which thrives on a person losing control and giving himself over to the Force. Yoda states that once you go down the Dark path, "forever will it dominate your destiny." We're led to believe that Luke, who has NO reason to follow Palpatine and never had 1% of the emotional problems that Anakin did, was in serious danger of turning to the Dark Side and joining the Emperor. Simply by getting pissed off while being emotionally manipulated by Vader and the Emperor. That's right, Luke was being manipulated as well.

There are basically two factors which contribute to Anakin's downfall: his fear of losing loved ones and his need for power and control. Lucas tried to blend the two in such a way that Anakin's fear of loss drove him to seek power, at any cost.

In my opinion, this blending of the two themes was executed very erratically, which is why I still say that Anakin's motivations come off as a messy soup of half-baked ideas. Anakin's lust for power was really only incidental compared to his fear of loss. Ultimately, he saved Palpatine from Mace Windu because he wanted Palpatine alive at all costs so he might save Padme. He abandoned the Jedi order and went on a killing spree so that he might save Padme. His entire motivation for turning to evil was fear of losing Padme. So how does his lust for power and need to exert control factor into any of this? It really doesn't; it first appears on Naboo when Anakin talks to Padme about dictatorships, and then clumsily reappears when Anakin starts ranting on Mustafar. It's not seamlessly integrated as a relevant factor contributing to Anakin's turn to evil.

Much of the first half of ROTS is about Anakin losing faith in the Jedi, because of their shadowy scheming and distrust for their government leaders. He thinks they have their own scheme to overthrow the government. Palpatine tells Anakin that the Jedi held him back because they're afraid he'll be too powerful to control. This is further supported by the end of AOTC, in which the Jedi, concerned by Dooku's statements, actually DO decide to start keeping an eye on the Senators. Anakin wants power and control, and that is also tied into his perception of himself as a great savior of the people. He does turn on the Jedi in part because he thinks they're plotting and no better than the Sith. Except that the one Sith promises to give him what he wants (and he intends to destroy that one Sith anyway).

You'll recall that this conversation began when I said that Phantom Menace was a waste of time. I stand by that statement, and now hopefully you can see why. The entire "fear of loss" angle, along with all the associated baggage such as the rigid Jedi Order or the forbidden romance, isn't even necessary for a really great tragedy.

The fear of loss, of his wife of all people, gives Anakin a much more personal motivator. The Dark Side has long been established as running off of emotion. Luke and Leia require a dead mother anyway.

The Prequels show that the two of them were friends, but only in the first half of the last movie.

You keep denying what is shown throughout AOTC. I've already exposed how over exaggerated that "Anakin just whines and hates Obi-Wan" mentality is.

I know fathers and sons aren't always on the best of terms. But at the end of the day the filmmaker is responsible for leaving the audience with an impression. I certainly didn't get the impression that Anakin and Obi-Wan really liked each other after watching TPM or AOTC.

You admit the validity of what I have said about father/son relationships, then you just fall back on "impression." If your impression doesn't follow many cases of reality or even other movies, then your impression isn't well-founded.

It seems that Obi-Wan tolerates Anakin, and Anakin is simply resentful of Obi-Wan. There's never a moment when Obi-Wan comes off as tender, or genuinely affectionate towards his son/disciple.

I already brought it up in this thread. They're friendly with each other in the elevator. Later, while Anakin is stressing over how Padme doesn't seem to care about him after 10 years, Obi-Wan steps in and gently reassures him.

[Darth Yan]

other issues were 1.) Maul went out like a pussy after a great deal of buildup, 2.) The NOOOOOO was utterly lame and caused me, my sister, and father to GIGGLE, and 3.) The energy door sequence in episode 1 where qui gon and maul fought was too much like a video game. and the shadow of the empire comaparison was appropriate becaues SOTE prdates attack of the clones by 6 YEARS. It gave the impression that lucas was ripping off his own tie ins. And he also pointed out that given Padme's condition during labor there is no way she could have given birth to healthy babies (he watched a lot of birthing shows because of his girlfriend). And why did they splice the babies in with CGI? And LOOSING THE WILL TO LIVE ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?????!!!!!?????

[Patroklos]

Yeah, that doesn't speak well for Padme, just givin birth to two children who apparently had no impact on her will to live whatsoever.

[adam_grif]

And why did they splice the babies in with CGI? And LOOSING THE WILL TO LIVE ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?????!!!!!?????

Truly that is a diagnosis that only a super-hyper-mega-advanced AI system could come up with, once again proving that SW is superior to ST in every way.

[Srelex]

Guys, SW is a setting that effectively has magic and nonsense-science. Why shouldn't a lack of will to live be a viable medical condition? We've already got people throwing things around because of funny things in their blood.