What if the Empire invaded modern day Earth?

[Batman]

Of course. I mean 'enough supplies to last them from North to South America' OBVIOUSLY means just enough fuel to traverse the distance, unopposed, because they wouldn't have to do any fighting whatsoever on the way.

[Star Wars 888]

The fighters have minutes of fuel now? May as well rip out there damn guns and stick them on a local tank chassis then. Jesus Christ.

Once again you completely misinterpret what I said. I said that the tie fighters would have a few minutes of fuel IF YOU WANT TO GET TECHNICAL and then try and manipulate the OP like the other side was doing).

[Surlethe]

There's no unambigious evidence that it is hyperdense (note the lack of strong gravitational attraction).

Even if the 1e38 J = 1e21 kg is concentrated in a point in the center of the 160 km radius station, the gravitational acceleration at the station's surface is a mere 0.3g. If we start by trying to explain why the actors are walking in a gravitational field ~10 m/s/s inside the DS, and assume the mass of the DS is mostly in its fuel and generated energy, then you get something like 4e21 kg, which points to about 4e38 J (i.e., several planet-killing shots).

[Aaron]

Once again you completely misinterpret what I said. I said that the tie fighters would have a few minutes of fuel IF YOU WANT TO GET TECHNICAL and then try and manipulate the OP like the other side was doing).

I wasn't actually serious you know. It's getting increasingly hard to treat this thread as anything other then a source of cheap laughs, to be honest.

[Bakustra]

The description of hypermatter in the ICSes indicates that it can cheat e=mc^2 in an interesting way: it is simply matter with complex mass. So they can store for every one ton of real mass a number of tons of "ghost" imaginary mass that doesn't interact meaningfully with the rest of the universe, and only deal with the totality of mass when burning the fuel.

This is the same method used for the hyperdrive: they simply convert the real portion of the ship's mass from positive to negative, and thus transition directly to travel at FTL velocities. This also can explain the high numbers used for acceleration: that level of acceleration requires conversion of much of the ship's mass to an imaginary state, which cannot be sustainable for long (unless they have ludicrously fine control over the effect). So such high-level acceleration may in fact only be possible during ramp-up to hyperdrive speeds or other short-duration periods.

The reason that the ICS can be said to supercede the novels is because they, by their very nature have more G-canon within them than the majority of the novels and comic books, seeing as they worked from early cuts of the film/the finished films and the input of Lucas himself. The same applies for all the companion works to the movies. The novels do not have those advantages, and thus are somewhat lower, getting lower the further from the movies they go. Again, this is just my personal approach to a unified canon (my personal approach is to throw out virtually everything, but that is not quite workable in a discussion, no?).

First Objection, starfighters were never expected to defend against a fucking ISD. It is even stated directly in the fucking movie.

Then why are they launched to escort the transports? It just doesn't make much sense.

Let's say they were completely confident in the ions taking down the ISDs. Then why waste X-Wings on that? If no, what the hell good would x-wings do to help?

Perhaps they were going to fight TIE fighters. Well, there's 2 x-wings. And the wankers say ISDs hold how many fighters? Hundreds? Thousands? They wouldn't help at all there either.

Unless the TIE numbers are grossly overstated. Then we might have something.

The official numbers are only seventy-two, which still gives thirty-six to one odds. Long even for the comic-book depictions. There is a reconciliation available: we know that shield penetration technology is available. Potentially, this could allow torpedos and missiles to do far more damage than what would be suggested by brute-force capabilities. Alternatively, they use hypermatter to make far more potent explosives than would be suggested by size. So there are reconciliations between the implications of Base Delta Zero and the threatening potential of X-wings.

[Junghalli]

Even if the 1e38 J = 1e21 kg is concentrated in a point in the center of the 160 km radius station, the gravitational acceleration at the station's surface is a mere 0.3g. If we start by trying to explain why the actors are walking in a gravitational field ~10 m/s/s inside the DS, and assume the mass of the DS is mostly in its fuel and generated energy, then you get something like 4e21 kg, which points to about 4e38 J (i.e., several planet-killing shots).

So you're saying maybe the Death Star gets its internal gravity from the mass of the superdense fuel it carries?

Clever.

Would take some pretty powerful engines to move it, 4 X 10^21 kg is about 5% the mass of our moon. But the fact it can fire 1 X 10^38 j shots suggests it has some serious power generation and waste heat dissipation capabilities, and doing some quick math the fuel consumed for relatively conservative velocities (e.g. 10 km/s) would quite (relatively) reasonable assuming M/AM annihilation and decent efficiency.

[Serafina]

Okay, this has become moronic (actually, just more so). The TIE-fighters only have two minutes of fuel now?
Hey, why not take my proposal:
The soldiers have no food, water or ammo, the vehicles no fuel and all batteries are dry.
At least that would be consistent. Otherwise, our moron here has to explain why the AT-ATs have fuel for months and the TIEs only for two minutes.

[DudeGuyMan]

Okay, this has become moronic (actually, just more so). The TIE-fighters only have two minutes of fuel now?
Hey, why not take my proposal:
The soldiers have no food, water or ammo, the vehicles no fuel and all batteries are dry.
At least that would be consistent. Otherwise, our moron here has to explain why the AT-ATs have fuel for months and the TIEs only for two minutes.

enough supplies to last them from North to South America

Clearly, it's because TIE fighters can travel from North to South American in 2 minutes!

[PeZook]

Ok, sure.

Thank you.

What about food and water for the infantry? What about shelter? Fuel and such the USA can support. They're moving through friendly territory.

This is the map of the railway network in Brazil.

Since by your own OP admission you state the Imperial start in the middle of South America, that's going to be somewhere on the Bolivian border in Brazil itself. In other words, in a place where no railway lines exist at the moment.

Bolivia is even worse ; They have a grand total of two rail lines.

The international force will have to march through hundreds of kilometres of rough terrain. They will literraly be unable to bring any heavy artillery, tanks, IFVs, etc to the theatre cheaply nor fast. You will have to fuel tanks with trucks, mechanical breakdowns will hold up traffic for kilometres, etc ; While Imperials have a giant light infantry force with minimal logistical requirements that's already in place. Seeing as they have access to "publically available information", they should be able to cut these rail lines with trivial ease as well, with one TIE sortie.

You can expect the marching international force to be decimated by TIE strafing runs long before they manage to get anywhere close to the Imperials.

The World has the logistical advantage though.

See above. They have about as much of a logistical advantage as they would when trying to invade Antarctica.

1. There are indeed a few non nuclear ICBMS, meaning that they know how to make them.
2 Heck, WW2 nazi Germany was working on missiles that could hit Britain and even the USA.
3. The difference in the mass and such of the conventional warheads might cause a few difficulties, but would it take years? No.

The fact they've been built at some time in the past is irrelevant. Great Britain used to built 2500 tonne wooden ships of the line, but recovering this capability would require tremendous investment from us, despite the technology being completely obsolete.

Likewise, these (mythical) non-nuclear ICBMs are not in production, and you would have to produce entirely new warhead designs for current missiles (of different types, mind you), establish production lines for them and run the entire prototyping and testing phase for each.

Yes, it would take years. Just like making a new fighter takes years, despite us theoretically knowing how to make fighters very well.

Ok, change it to thousands of long range missiles and artillery shells.

Very few long-range missiles have enough range to reach that deep inside the continent ; Those that do require detailed radar terrain maps and are only useful against static targets. The US (the only country with a sizeable arsenal of such missiles) would first need to realize what's going on, decide upon a response and then compile a target list somehow without satellite aid.

Or the artillery could be the defending force.

In pitifully small numbers, dispersed all over the place (Again, imperials are already deployed, defenders are not) and largely ineffective: all stormtroopers are armored, so you have to kill them with blast overpressure. While a 155mm shell can kill people in a 150 metre radius with shrapnel, blast reduces that radius to about 40 metres. You can extend it with tricks like time-on-target fire, but have fun pulling that off with South American armies

Not to mention Imperial EW capabilities might very well negate all forward spotting entirely, making artillery about as useful for engaging mobile units as it was in WWI.

Shielded starfighters? When have shoulder launched missiles destroyed starfighters that were shielded?

PL-2MX portable missile launcher

Which are not beyond nuclear level.

A hand grenade capable of blowing apart a large building is, indeed, nuclear yield. It's literally a truckload of explosive force packed into a fist-sized container.

Yet their radio communication could have been used more in the Battle of Endor, and their sensors couldn't detect the heroes in the Millennium Falcon.

You mean the heroes who were explicitly stated to be hiding in specially prepared shielded compartments?

As for the Battle Of Endor...how, exactly, could they have been better used? We only saw glimpses of the battle.

And the USA was actively fighting Communist nations because of it.

The point, retard, is that they didn't nuke the "evil Chinese horde" despite the Chinese being able to do a grand total of fuck all in response, so clearly the US doesn't resort to nuking in defence of puppet states.

Except that they start off in Brazil.

They don't need to attack Brazil, though, as a simple glimpse on a map will show.

The Russians have nuclear deterrence. The invasion force does not, nor does it have logistical support for their tech.

They have other kinds of deterrence, like being able to wipe out the entire satellite network in one sortie. Which is, incidentally, easy to demonstrate.

Except that we still have the resources and industrial capability to make stuff. In the case of a war that threatens humanity our debt can wait a little longer.

You still haven't demonstrated how this invasion force is a threat to humanity in any way.

You don't need mechanized infantry for .50 cal guns, or large rocks. Sure our infantry would be outmatched one on one, but they would be far from "worthless".

You do need mechanized infantry in order to carry those weapons in any meaningful numbers. Jesus christ, how fucking dumb are you?

Those were the Empire's "finest legion" and they got humiliated. A modern military force in its place might have actually done better; an abrams tank would not have been destroyed by swinging logs nor would its hatch be unlocked for some reason.

An Abrams tank would not have been able to properly navigate on Endor, and would probably be defending the main entrance to the bunker...just like the AT-AT we saw earlier. Modern soldiers would be killed just as dead by large rocks, arrows and clubs wielded by cute little teddy bears (hint for you: cute animals can be fucking deadly. Would you like to try and wrestle a panda bear?), and light scout vehicles could be defeated by stone-age traps just like the AT-STs.

The thing is that, if the invasion force does want to keep out of a large scale world war in which they would surely get pwned (by logistics mainly), they wouldn't start shooting down transport ships and transport planes. The USA forces in the middle east could be recalled back to the USA mainland. No need to launch a counter invasion by sea.

If they see an invasion force massing against them, buthey will. Only an idiot wouldn't notice the preparations which would involve things like building new air bases, withdrawing from Iraq, constructing new rail lines, etc.

In ANH the tie fighters attacking the Millennium Falcon were not moving at mach 10 or whatever speed they can apparently move at. Basically, their dogfighting speed is lower then their maximum speed.

Do you have any idea what "relative speed means"? Here's a hint: if a supersonic fighter is chasing a Blackbird recon plane, and it's closing at it with a relative speed of 10 kmph, does it mean both planes are moving slowly?

TIEs have the ability to re-enter the atmosphere ; They can obviously move fast, especially according to the ICS books presented earlier. As worst, it can descend from orbit, strafe the ships and avoid return fire by zooming back to orbit even if it can't fly very fast in atmosphere.

100 AT-ATs would not be able to guard every port and city open to attack. 500,000 stormtroopers would be spread out over many ports. 100 tie fighters would be busy trying to shoot down air and sea transport ships and could be shot down by SAMs or distracted by SAMs (tie fighters don't have jamming device, do they?). 1000 AT-STs would be spread out and quite frankly almost worthless as a base defense unit.

There just aren't very many large ports in South America ; It would be trivial to station one division supported by a couple AT-ATs at each one. Small ports are useless for unloading heavy equipment and necessary supplies, so they can be safely ignored.

Basically, bombardment can soften up the defenders of the port. Abrams tanks and artillery would out range stormtroopers and AT-STs.

Again, how are you going to get the tanks there with no railways, poor roads and no secured ports in theatre? Land them one by one on LCACs you're going to lose to a single Stormtrooper?

What?

I'm asking how you are going to maintian the political will to go to war through several elections.

Yes, it would probably take a massive invasion, but not an infeasible one. Or it could simply be a matter of waiting until their tie fighters (which don't have that much fuel, since they're designed to be dependent on support and pretty much fodder), AT-STs and AT-ATs run out of fuel.

And then still taking hundreds of thousand of casualties in brutal fighting against half a million stormtroopers which you seem to keep forgetting. Air superiority can't win wars ; You have to send in troops to fight stormtroopers directly and get massacred by the thousands.

That's possible, but why would the USA need to have the invasion force give it to them? A successful counter invasion would give them lots of power packs, plastoid armor, AT-ATs, tie fighters and such to reverse engineer.

Because getting the tech via negotiation costs less than paying trillions of dollars and suffering massive casulaties to obtain it via force.

Possibly billions of lives due to MAD.

Yes. What's the "benefit" side of the cost-benefit analysis for the Imperial invasion? The "costs" side has trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives ; Is it worth it?

It's a hypothetical situation. And the USA alone if properly mobilized could pull it off.

They don't have a reason to undergo full mobilization.

If the invasion force is a threat to humanity, yes.

How is it a threat to humanity again? Any more than any country becoming strong and technologically advanced?

That would be foolish of the world to do. Eventually (as in decades) the invasion force would get a good infrastructure going, and possibly even start to recreate Star Wars tech. Then if they can mass produce Star Wars tech to a large enough degree, they, with the proper resources, could indeed take over the world.

They will never be able to mass produce advanced star wars tech, since they don't have the necessary prerequisites, just like nobody would be able to organize XIXth century britain to make semiconductors. They'd be able to support our advances through their knowledge, though.

Actually the Empire used the "tarkin doctrine", which is supposed to keep the population in line through fear (although it didn't seem to actually work).

Yeah, and? How is the Tarkin Doctrine mutually exclusive with the idea of using local auxilliaries to do your dirty work?

That's ridiculous. I'll assume that your statement about Vader is a joke.

Of course it is. I mean, come on

Except that this one would have far more publicity.

Enough to make them disrupt their economy and take hundreds of thousands of casualties? They didn't give two shits when Argentina imploded.

But you would if you want to stop an entire invasion force with 100 fighters.

Not really. All you have to do is strangle the bottlenecks: kill tankers, port facilities and turn narrow roads into charnel houses of burned-out armored vehicles.

The invasion force, if it has time to develop, could become a legitimate threat to Earth. The USA didn't want to invade the USSR (and vice versa) due to the near impossibility of occupying such a territory and MAD.

Yes, and since the USSR had all that power, they were a bigger threat to Earth than the Imperials can ever become (I don't agree with Serafina's idea that they could build and supply space stations and thus become invulernable ; Too much personnel, too little lift capacity and you're still dependent on supplies from Earth)

Yet the USA would outnumber the stormtroopers by quite a bit. Note that a 50 cal sniper rifle would outrange the stormtroopers' standard blaster rifles. Snipers could lie in ambush in the rainforests and such. AT-STs that try and scout for them find themselves destroyed by logs.

Yeah, sniper would lie in ambush in the rainforest and that would obviously be enough to liberate a country occupied by stormtroopers

If the US has to resort to ambushes and guerilla warfare to fight stormies, they've already won.

Since when would they have internet access? Well, maybe once they capture a country. And it would not be beyond possibility for the government to shut down Google map temporarily.

Then use a goddamned paper map, for fuck's sake. It's not like you can't get them at every gas station

Except that an abrams tank and an AT-ST have similar roles; well, an AT-ST is a scout - combat hybrid it seems, and although a "level down" from an Abrams tank, in this scenario the only heavy vehicles they get are 100 AT-ATs that can't be everywhere at once and can be bypassed.

Jesus christ, you think a light scout walker and a main battle tank have the same role?

What world do you live in?

[Surlethe]

What concerns me about a dense core providing gravity is the tidal forces it would have. If the outer layer of the ship has 1/4 the gravity of the inner layer, that would be pretty bizarre.

What would the tidal forces be in this scenario?

But on-ship gravity can't be used for much since they have both artificial gravity and repulsorlifts, so they could neutralize any natural gravity inside.

True, but if you're going to have enough mass to create gravity, why waste energy powering an artificial gravity field?

[Star Wars 888]

Thank you.

This is the map of the railway network in Brazil.

Since by your own OP admission you state the Imperial start in the middle of South America, that's going to be somewhere on the Bolivian border in Brazil itself. In other words, in a place where no railway lines exist at the moment.

Since when would infantry and armored divisions have to use railroads? Heck, even supplies could be prepared and readied at, say, town and such.

Bolivia is even worse ; They have a grand total of two rail lines.

The international force will have to march through hundreds of kilometres of rough terrain. They will literraly be unable to bring any heavy artillery, tanks, IFVs, etc to the theatre cheaply nor fast. You will have to fuel tanks with trucks, mechanical breakdowns will hold up traffic for kilometres, etc ; While Imperials have a giant light infantry force with minimal logistical requirements that's already in place. Seeing as they have access to "publically available information", they should be able to cut these rail lines with trivial ease as well, with one TIE sortie.

"rough terrain" - the imperials will be on the same rough terrain, have MORE logistical problems and no way to refuel their vehicles and starships. The international force would be marching through friendly territory with a sustainable supply line and with the ability to resupply their vehicles and airplanes.

You can expect the marching international force to be decimated by TIE strafing runs long before they manage to get anywhere close to the Imperials.

That depends largely on the speed and durability of the tie fighters, which still hasn't been quantified.

See above. They have about as much of a logistical advantage as they would when trying to invade Antarctica.

Actually, in that case they'd still have the logistical advantage. No military force of a national size is guarding Antarctica and supplies there would be slim. A blockade of ships could starve out a force a surrender to whatever defenders are there.

The fact they've been built at some time in the past is irrelevant. Great Britain used to built 2500 tonne wooden ships of the line, but recovering this capability would require tremendous investment from us, despite the technology being completely obsolete.

Um, no. Wooden boats are not beyond our capability to build (or we could build metal versions), nor are the cannons they used.

Likewise, these (mythical) non-nuclear ICBMs are not in production, and you would have to produce entirely new warhead designs for current missiles (of different types, mind you), establish production lines for them and run the entire prototyping and testing phase for each.

Yes, but that would not take years in a war.

Yes, it would take years. Just like making a new fighter takes years, despite us theoretically knowing how to make fighters very well.

Making a NEW fighter takes years. We've already made non nuclear ICBMS.

Very few long-range missiles have enough range to reach that deep inside the continent ;

What about long range missiles from South American countries and US military bases in South America? What about cruise missiles from the sea?

Those that do require detailed radar terrain maps and are only useful against static targets. The US (the only country with a sizeable arsenal of such missiles) would first need to realize what's going on, decide upon a response and then compile a target list somehow without satellite aid.

Actually the invasion force would often times be pretty stationary, or at least slow. AT-STs aren't very good at moving over forest like terrain. Stormtroopers would have to walk on foot (100 AT-ATs cannot carry 500,000 stormtroopers).

In pitifully small numbers, dispersed all over the place (Again, imperials are already deployed, defenders are not) and largely ineffective: all stormtroopers are armored, so you have to kill them with blast overpressure. While a 155mm shell can kill people in a 150 metre radius with shrapnel, blast reduces that radius to about 40 metres. You can extend it with tricks like time-on-target fire, but have fun pulling that off with South American armies

Stormtrooper armor would not deflect a direct hit from an artillery shell. Their defense against shrapnel may be good,; well, sort of. In the EU their armor is pretty darn uber, but in the movies there's a part in ROTJ where the armor cracks when a stormtrooper falls.

Not to mention Imperial EW capabilities might very well negate all forward spotting entirely, making artillery about as useful for engaging mobile units as it was in WWI.

Um, that's pretty much speculation.

PL-2MX portable missile launcher

Oh that one. Well, it isn't specified that it can take out shielded starfighters, but it probably can if it's used as an anti air device in Star Wars. However, particle shields on starfighters do not appear to be nearly as durable as their ray shielding. This seems to be common on their star destroyers as well.

Yeah, that would probably do quite a bit of damage to our aircraft, but how many stormtroopers out of 500,000 would actually carry one of those?

A hand grenade capable of blowing apart a large building is, indeed, nuclear yield. It's literally a truckload of explosive force packed into a fist-sized container.

That would depend on a lot of things, such as how big the building was.

You mean the heroes who were explicitly stated to be hiding in specially prepared shielded compartments?

Really? Oh, I don't remember them saying that. Still sort of begs the question as to why the stormtroopers didn't, like, check those compartments.

As for the Battle Of Endor...how, exactly, could they have been better used? We only saw glimpses of the battle.

How about to actually detect those ewoks? They clearly failed to do so.

The point, retard, is that they didn't nuke the "evil Chinese horde" despite the Chinese being able to do a grand total of fuck all in response, so clearly the US doesn't resort to nuking in defence of puppet states.

Actually, there were some that advocated that, but that's beside the point. In the long term this invasion force would be a far greater threat than Cold War China (which still wasn't a threat to the world or the United States) or the USSR if they manage to set up a nation.

They don't need to attack Brazil, though, as a simple glimpse on a map will show.

Is the Brazilian government simply going to sit there and let them pass through?

They have other kinds of deterrence, like being able to wipe out the entire satellite network in one sortie. Which is, incidentally, easy to demonstrate.

Wiping out the entire satellite network is hardly anywhere near the threat level of wiping out the human race.

You still haven't demonstrated how this invasion force is a threat to humanity in any way.

If they set up a nation and get it going, they'll have the knowledge of technology thousands of years ahead of us. Once they get the proper resources and industrial capability they'll be able to field Star Wars era technology and supply their forces.

You do need mechanized infantry in order to carry those weapons in any meaningful numbers. Jesus christ, how fucking dumb are you?

Since when are snipers mechanized infantry?

[/quote]


An Abrams tank would not have been able to properly navigate on Endor, and would probably be defending the main entrance to the bunker...just like the AT-AT we saw earlier. Modern soldiers would be killed just as dead by large rocks, arrows and clubs wielded by cute little teddy bears (hint for you: cute animals can be fucking deadly. Would you like to try and wrestle a panda bear?), and light scout vehicles could be defeated by stone-age traps just like the AT-STs.

[/quote]

Well maybe, the depends on whether or not you would replace the AT-STs with scout vehicles like humvees or tanks.

If they see an invasion force massing against them, buthey will. Only an idiot wouldn't notice the preparations which would involve things like building new air bases, withdrawing from Iraq, constructing new rail lines, etc.

How will they know any of that stuff? If they want to keep out of a war would they be flying tie fighters as recon over the USA?

Do you have any idea what "relative speed means"? Here's a hint: if a supersonic fighter is chasing a Blackbird recon plane, and it's closing at it with a relative speed of 10 kmph, does it mean both planes are moving slowly?

They weren't moving at supersonic absolute speeds either, or not at mach 9 or anything like that.

TIEs have the ability to re-enter the atmosphere ; They can obviously move fast, especially according to the ICS books presented earlier. As worst, it can descend from orbit, strafe the ships and avoid return fire by zooming back to orbit even if it can't fly very fast in atmosphere.

Again, their in atmosphere speed still hasn't been quantified. There are sources that list their in atmosphere speed at far lower than what the ICS's claim.

There just aren't very many large ports in South America ; It would be trivial to station one division supported by a couple AT-ATs at each one. Small ports are useless for unloading heavy equipment and necessary supplies, so they can be safely ignored.

Says who? They might not be ideal, but they can still fit tanks and supplies.

Again, how are you going to get the tanks there with no railways, poor roads and no secured ports in theatre? Land them one by one on LCACs you're going to lose to a single Stormtrooper?

I thought that we were talking about a hypothetical naval invasion.

I'm asking how you are going to maintian the political will to go to war through several elections.

We've been in Iraq through several elections.

And then still taking hundreds of thousand of casualties in brutal fighting against half a million stormtroopers which you seem to keep forgetting. Air superiority can't win wars ; You have to send in troops to fight stormtroopers directly and get massacred by the thousands.

Air supremacy (once their tie fighters run out of fuel) might not win the war for them, but it would certainly be a big factor against the imperials.

As to how powerful stormtroopers are, it varies. Some times they are incompetent fools, other times they are uber powerful elite shock troopers.

Because getting the tech via negotiation costs less than paying trillions of dollars and suffering massive casulaties to obtain it via force.

Actually, you simply have to capture or kill one stormtrooper and take their equipment.

Yes. What's the "benefit" side of the cost-benefit analysis for the Imperial invasion? The "costs" side has trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives ; Is it worth it?

If they are a threat to humanity, then yes.

They don't have a reason to undergo full mobilization.

Maybe, maybe not. If they are a threat to humanity, then yes. If they aren't, then that sort of means that they fail in the invasion attempt.

How is it a threat to humanity again? Any more than any country becoming strong and technologically advanced?

Technologically advanced by thousands of years.

They will never be able to mass produce advanced star wars tech, since they don't have the necessary prerequisites, just like nobody would be able to organize XIXth century britain to make semiconductors. They'd be able to support our advances through their knowledge, though.

Actually, they may be able to mass produce advanced Star Wars tech if they set up a functional nation. Your analogy would be more accurate if it were whether or not a modern day military force could in 19th century Britain make superconductors.

Yeah, and? How is the Tarkin Doctrine mutually exclusive with the idea of using local auxilliaries to do your dirty work?

That wasn't the point.

Of course it is. I mean, come on


Enough to make them disrupt their economy and take hundreds of thousands of casualties? They didn't give two shits when Argentina imploded.

That's contradictory. On one hand you make the USA seem to be indifferent to morals by helping the imperials, and then on the other hand you make the USA seem moral by making them not want to send people to die.

Not really. All you have to do is strangle the bottlenecks: kill tankers, port facilities and turn narrow roads into charnel houses of burned-out armored vehicles.

And then run out of fuel.

Yes, and since the USSR had all that power, they were a bigger threat to Earth than the Imperials can ever become (I don't agree with Serafina's idea that they could build and supply space stations and thus become invulernable ; Too much personnel, too little lift capacity and you're still dependent on supplies from Earth)

If left alone for a very long time, they could in theory becomes a threat to humanity.

Yeah, sniper would lie in ambush in the rainforest and that would obviously be enough to liberate a country occupied by stormtroopers

No, but it would whittle down the non replaceable (short term) stormtroopers.

If the US has to resort to ambushes and guerilla warfare to fight stormies, they've already won.

Since when? Guerrilla warfare is a valid military strategy. The imperials learned it the hard way.

Then use a goddamned paper map, for fuck's sake. It's not like you can't get them at every gas station

Do those paper maps have maps of the worlds' satellites?

Jesus christ, you think a light scout walker and a main battle tank have the same role?

What world do you live in?

Well, maybe the AT-STs are scout vehicles. Still not an excuse for their pathetically though.

[Serafina]

Since when would infantry and armored divisions have to use railroads? Heck, even supplies could be prepared and readied at, say, town and such.

So you are a moron who knows nothing about modern warfare. And by modern, i mean warfare since the 19th century.
To move large armies, railroads are pretty much an absolute necessity. Ships are only good near harbors, otherwise you have to use expensive, vulnerable trucks.

"rough terrain" - the imperials will be on the same rough terrain, have MORE logistical problems and no way to refuel their vehicles and starships. The international force would be marching through friendly territory with a sustainable supply line and with the ability to resupply their vehicles and airplanes.

How is that territory "friendly"?
The answer is, it isn't. Heck, even if they are fighting in a city, the territory is not friendly - rather, it's hostile since it prevents them from using their larger guns in order to avoid civilian casualities. Which the imperials do not really have to worry about - they can, but they don't have to.

That depends largely on the speed and durability of the tie fighters, which still hasn't been quantified.

Yes it has, retards. Your OP gives them fuel for months and their speed has been sourced multiple times.

Actually, in that case they'd still have the logistical advantage. No military force of a national size is guarding Antarctica and supplies there would be slim. A blockade of ships could starve out a force a surrender to whatever defenders are there.

Again, you are a bloody moron who doesn't have the feintest idea about the logistical requirements of a modern army.

Um, no. Wooden boats are not beyond our capability to build (or we could build metal versions), nor are the cannons they used.

Try rebuilding such a ship then. Or show that it is easily done in large quantities.

Yes, but that would not take years in a war.

As per you saying so. Given that you do not even understand basic logistics, your word is worth squat.

Making a NEW fighter takes years. We've already made non nuclear ICBMS.

Ah, right. You now have shown that you do not understand production lines either.
If you are not producing something anymore, it takes nearly as long to start producing it again.

What about long range missiles from South American countries and US military bases in South America? What about cruise missiles from the sea?

The latter was exactly what he was talking about, dumbass.
And i was unaware that the USA has thousands of cruise missiles stationed in South America.

Actually the invasion force would often times be pretty stationary, or at least slow. AT-STs aren't very good at moving over forest like terrain. Stormtroopers would have to walk on foot (100 AT-ATs cannot carry 500,000 stormtroopers).

So what?
The AT-ATs are certainly better at moving trough such terrain due to their sheer mass alone. And the Stromtroopers would profit from their powered NBC-armor (since that negates many hazards in jungle terrain).

Stormtrooper armor would not deflect a direct hit from an artillery shell. Their defense against shrapnel may be good,; well, sort of. In the EU their armor is pretty darn uber, but in the movies there's a part in ROTJ where the armor cracks when a stormtrooper falls.

He never stated that they could, hatfucker.

Um, that's pretty much speculation.

Hardly, given that we know that they use massive amounts of ECM. It's not really hard to imagine that they could scramble modern radios.


I'll skip the rest, since it's just more boring stupidity.
You are still ignoring that the imperials will NOT FIGHT A STRAIGHT-UP WAR. Because they do not HAVE TO.
Even if we disregard building space stations later on, my tribute-subjugation-strategy still works. The TIEs alone are totally sufficient to subjugate the world. Not to conquer it, but why should they do that? Conquering something is really not that important - if you can get someone to do your bidding by other means, those means are most likely preferable.
That can be done in a matter of days at no risk at all.

[Star Wars 888]

So you are a moron who knows nothing about modern warfare. And by modern, i mean warfare since the 19th century.
To move large armies, railroads are pretty much an absolute necessity. Ships are only good near harbors, otherwise you have to use expensive, vulnerable trucks.

You answered your own question. Railroads are not the only form of transport in a military situation.

How is that territory "friendly"?
The answer is, it isn't. Heck, even if they are fighting in a city, the territory is not friendly - rather, it's hostile since it prevents them from using their larger guns in order to avoid civilian casualities. Which the imperials do not really have to worry about - they can, but they don't have to.

Yet the imperials would have to deal with Brazil and other South American countries.

Yes it has, retards. Your OP gives them fuel for months

Bullshit. In my OP I gave them enough supplies to last from South to North America. I'm being fair and assuming that for the tie fighters they get the fuel they generally do in one run, however, if you want to get super technical, then the tie fighters have enough fuel to last from South to North America, which if your mach 9 in atmosphere idea is correct, would be a few minutes.

and their speed has been sourced multiple times.

And I have sourced far lower speeds.

Again, you are a bloody moron who doesn't have the feintest idea about the logistical requirements of a modern army.

And apparently you think that whatever army that would be guarding Antarctica in that scenario would be able to support itself without external aid. You do realize what Antarctica is, right?

Try rebuilding such a ship then. Or show that it is easily done in large quantities.

Well I don't know how to build giant 18th century ships of the line, but I don't have the resources of a superpower and the back up of scientists, engineers, etc, do I?

As per you saying so. Given that you do not even understand basic logistics, your word is worth squat.

Says someone who thinks that the imperials can establish a base on the moon and orbital space platforms in any reasonable amount of time, or that their tie fighters can go to the moon when they run out of fuel.

Ah, right. You now have shown that you do not understand production lines either.
If you are not producing something anymore, it takes nearly as long to start producing it again.

Clearly you are overestimating the difficulty in making non nuclear warheads. The United States has already made them! Mass producing them would be no harder, possibly easier, than making nuclear ICBMs.

The latter was exactly what he was talking about, dumbass.
And i was unaware that the USA has thousands of cruise missiles stationed in South America.

Aircraft carriers.

So what?
The AT-ATs are certainly better at moving trough such terrain due to their sheer mass alone.

Except that they would need to be escorted by AT-STs, which do not move well on shaky terrain.

And the Stromtroopers would profit from their powered NBC-armor (since that negates many hazards in jungle terrain).

I could claim that the stormtrooper armor doesn't actually seem to protect their entire body, but if we were to dismiss that as a filming error, they would still have to move on foot.

He never stated that they could, hatfucker.
Hardly, given that we know that they use massive amounts of ECM. It's not really hard to imagine that they could scramble modern radios.

Since when would their ECM extend to that far of a distance?

I'll skip the rest, since it's just more boring stupidity.
You are still ignoring that the imperials will NOT FIGHT A STRAIGHT-UP WAR. Because they do not HAVE TO.
Even if we disregard building space stations later on, my tribute-subjugation-strategy still works. The TIEs alone are totally sufficient to subjugate the world. Not to conquer it, but why should they do that? Conquering something is really not that important - if you can get someone to do your bidding by other means, those means are most likely preferable.
That can be done in a matter of days at no risk at all.

[/quote]

That's ridiculous.

Maybe the Earth will play along and give 100 tie fighters tribute for a while. Then the tie fighters run out of fuel. What do you think will happen to them then?

[Serafina]

You answered your own question. Railroads are not the only form of transport in a military situation.

They are the most efficient one by far, and nearly a necessity for large-scale operations.

Yet the imperials would have to deal with Brazil and other South American countries.

Ah, a total non-sequitur. Because that doesn't make the territory they are in friendly towards the americans at any rate.

Bullshit. In my OP I gave them enough supplies to last from South to North America. I'm being fair and assuming that for the tie fighters they get the fuel they generally do in one run, however, if you want to get super technical, then the tie fighters have enough fuel to last from South to North America, which if your mach 9 in atmosphere idea is correct, would be a few minutes.

Moron. so the TIEs start with an near-empty fuel tank and no further fuel, but the AT-ATs have a full fuel tank and many refills?
Get a brain. And then go back to school.

And I have sourced far lower speeds.

Which are lower canon. Get over it.

And apparently you think that whatever army that would be guarding Antarctica in that scenario would be able to support itself without external aid. You do realize what Antarctica is, right?

Given that the imperials would have their supplies with them, they would have the logistical advantage.
This is also the case here. The USA would have to get their troops there first and ship in the supplies continously, and for a much larger army.

Well I don't know how to build giant 18th century ships of the line, but I don't have the resources of a superpower and the back up of scientists, engineers, etc, do I?

Being a superpower doesn't give you a license to handwave engineering away.

Says someone who thinks that the imperials can establish a base on the moon and orbital space platforms in any reasonable amount of time, or that their tie fighters can go to the moon when they run out of fuel.

If they have shuttles - which they should have - doing so is really, really easy. We already have the technology to do so ourselves, we just lack good lift capacity.

Clearly you are overestimating the difficulty in making non nuclear warheads. The United States has already made them! Mass producing them would be no harder, possibly easier, than making nuclear ICBMs.

Moron.
The issue is that you have to redesign the carrier missiles and then retool the factories to build them. The latter is the main issue and can only be done so fast.

Aircraft carriers.

Since when do aircraft carriers have unlimited range?

Except that they would need to be escorted by AT-STs, which do not move well on shaky terrain.

Oh, really? Endor was quite rough terrain for vehicles, and the AT-STs moved just fine.

I could claim that the stormtrooper armor doesn't actually seem to protect their entire body, but if we were to dismiss that as a filming error, they would still have to move on foot.

Oh, really?
So full-body armor doesn't protect the entire body now? It's certainly tough enough to be of great aid here.

Since when would their ECM extend to that far of a distance?

You don't need to extend it that far to disrupt a forward spotters radio. A couple of kilometers, that's it.

That's ridiculous.

Maybe the Earth will play along and give 100 tie fighters tribute for a while. Then the tie fighters run out of fuel. What do you think will happen to them then?

As i said - by that point they would have established another way to ensure that superiority. Space stations are one way, but other means are possible as well.


Again, your entire arguments boils down to "my OP is moronic so they'll run out of fuel after two minutes".

[Aaron]

You answered your own question. Railroads are not the only form of transport in a military situation.

Jesus Christ man, do you know anything about the military? Guess how often I had to change all the fluids (oil, hub oil, filters, etc) in my APC? Every 100 hours of run time.

Using trucks as opposed to ships, trains or aircraft puts a massive strain on the logistics tail. And if your using tank transporters, then they have to maintained as well. Frankly this is starting to sound like my 9 years old impression of how the military works (go there, kill them).

[Star Wars 888]

They are the most efficient one by far, and nearly a necessity for large-scale operations.

You do realize that this works both ways, do you? The imperial invasion force has enough supplies to last them from South to North America, but where are they going to carry it? Maybe on the AT-ATs, but that wouldn't leave much room for transporting stormtroopers, would it? Since the supplies would be with the AT-ATs, the stormtroopers would have to stay near or with the AT-ATs, which would severely limit the invasion force's mobility.

Ah, a total non-sequitur. Because that doesn't make the territory they are in friendly towards the americans at any rate.

More friendly than what the invasion force has to deal with.

Moron. so the TIEs start with an near-empty fuel tank and no further fuel, but the AT-ATs have a full fuel tank and many refills?
Get a brain. And then go back to school.

Clearly you misinterpreted, intentionally or unintentionally, what I said. In your statement you were like "oh the OP gives them a lot of fuel!" but in reality the OP gives what would to the tie fighters be a very low amount of fuel. I'm being nice and deciding that such low fuel wouldn't be fair, but you're apparently wanting to give them a few minute's worth of fuel.

Which are lower canon. Get over it.

Which you still haven't proven.

Given that the imperials would have their supplies with them, they would have the logistical advantage.
This is also the case here. The USA would have to get their troops there first and ship in the supplies continously, and for a much larger army.

ROFL. In Antarctica the stormtroopers may suffer from the cold (don't go talking about how their armor would withstand such low temperatures; otherwise why would they need snowtroopers?), they would have no industrial base or resources and their force except for their tie fighters would be stranded with little to no way to get out without support.

Being a superpower doesn't give you a license to handwave engineering away.

That's not what I said. Stop strawmaning.

If they have shuttles - which they should have - doing so is really, really easy. We already have the technology to do so ourselves, we just lack good lift capacity.

This isn't a question of what they "should" have. It's a question of what they do have.

Moron.
The issue is that you have to redesign the carrier missiles and then retool the factories to build them. The latter is the main issue and can only be done so fast.

Oh, so you're suddenly changing your mind to "omg they don't know how to make them" to "well they'll have to learn how to mass produce them!"

Since when do aircraft carriers have unlimited range?

Strawman. Since when did I claim that aircraft carriers have unlimited range.

Oh, really? Endor was quite rough terrain for vehicles, and the AT-STs moved just fine.

Did you even watch ROTJ? Sure they moved fine when not around enemies, but wooden logs destroyed one and a catapult almost knocked another over.

Oh, really?
So full-body armor doesn't protect the entire body now? It's certainly tough enough to be of great aid here.

Actually, there are parts of the OT where a part of a stormtrooper's body is exposed, such as their neck, for a while (also happens for a moment when Luke disguises himself as a stormtrooper)

You don't need to extend it that far to disrupt a forward spotters radio. A couple of kilometers, that's it.

Do they always have it in use? How do you know that they have it with them? Why doesn't it jam their own communications? Would it even work on our communications since Star Wars seems to use different types of long range communication than us?

As i said - by that point they would have established another way to ensure that superiority. Space stations are one way, but other means are possible as well.

ROFL. Their vehicles will run out of fuel well before they can build space stations.

Again, your entire arguments boils down to "my OP is moronic so they'll run out of fuel after two minutes".

[/quote]

Strawman...again. YOU are the one that actually made the claim, which indirectly led to you accidentally claiming that they'd run out of fuel in 2 minutes. Had you not made that claim, that thing wouldn't have started.

[Serafina]

You do realize that this works both ways, do you? The imperial invasion force has enough supplies to last them from South to North America, but where are they going to carry it? Maybe on the AT-ATs, but that wouldn't leave much room for transporting stormtroopers, would it? Since the supplies would be with the AT-ATs, the stormtroopers would have to stay near or with the AT-ATs, which would severely limit the invasion force's mobility.

No it doesn't.
You gave them the supplies and therefore the means of moving them. Unless you want to appear even more stupid.
Furthermore, the imperial force is much smaller.

More friendly than what the invasion force has to deal with.

I think you subscribe to magical friendly territory that automatically makes things easier.
So what exactly do you define as "friendly territory" and what effects does it have?

Clearly you misinterpreted, intentionally or unintentionally, what I said. In your statement you were like "oh the OP gives them a lot of fuel!" but in reality the OP gives what would to the tie fighters be a very low amount of fuel. I'm being nice and deciding that such low fuel wouldn't be fair, but you're apparently wanting to give them a few minute's worth of fuel.

The OP says that they have enough supplies for the force to move from South to North america. Under combat conditions. That's a lot of supplies, you are trying to arbitrarily lower them for the TIEs.

Which you still haven't proven.

Burden of proof, fucktard. You have to show that yours is higher.

ROFL. In Antarctica the stormtroopers may suffer from the cold (don't go talking about how their armor would withstand such low temperatures; otherwise why would they need snowtroopers?), they would have no industrial base or resources and their force except for their tie fighters would be stranded with little to no way to get out without support.

And all that applies to any earth forces, except even more so.

That's not what I said. Stop strawmaning.

Yes it is. Because you made no argument related to actual engineering.

This isn't a question of what they "should" have. It's a question of what they do have.

And part of that question is what they should have. Because any sensible invasion force would need dropships, even if they have no capship support.

Oh, so you're suddenly changing your mind to "omg they don't know how to make them" to "well they'll have to learn how to mass produce them!"

I did not change anything here. Manufacturing something in a lab is not usefull in a war. To make more than a handfull, you need large factories.

Strawman. Since when did I claim that aircraft carriers have unlimited range.

Given that you just said "aircraft carriers", you might as well. The point is that aircraft carriers do not have the range to engage something in the middle of the continent - at least not mobile targets.

Did you even watch ROTJ? Sure they moved fine when not around enemies, but wooden logs destroyed one and a catapult almost knocked another over.

Moron. That just shows how resilient they are to rough terrain - else it would have toppled immedeately.
Given that it is a lightly armored vehicle, several tons of fast wood on each side is enough to destroy it easily.

Actually, there are parts of the OT where a part of a stormtrooper's body is exposed, such as their neck, for a while (also happens for a moment when Luke disguises himself as a stormtrooper)

Oh, because farm boy obviously knows how to wear advanced armor. How about you put on some NBC-gear and i expose you to toxic gas? Want to bet whether it will help you?

Do they always have it in use? How do you know that they have it with them? Why doesn't it jam their own communications? Would it even work on our communications since Star Wars seems to use different types of long range communication than us?

It obviously doesn't jam their own communicators because they are more advanced by orders of magnitudes. And jamming radio is really, really easy - supposing that Star Wars can't do it is just as moronic as everything else that comes out of your assmouth.

ROFL. Their vehicles will run out of fuel well before they can build space stations.

As per you saying so.

Strawman...again. YOU are the one that actually made the claim, which indirectly led to you accidentally claiming that they'd run out of fuel in 2 minutes. Had you not made that claim, that thing wouldn't have started.

I am going by the OP, which gives them fuel for months. Easily enough for everything i propose.

[Star Wars 888]

No it doesn't.
You gave them the supplies and therefore the means of moving them. Unless you want to appear even more stupid.
Furthermore, the imperial force is much smaller.

AT-ATs can transport the materials, but that would limit the invasion force's options.

I think you subscribe to magical friendly territory that automatically makes things easier.
So what exactly do you define as "friendly territory" and what effects does it have?

Friendly territory has the effect of you not being shot at when you cross it. Maybe the people in the territory will help you.

The OP says that they have enough supplies for the force to move from South to North america. Under combat conditions. That's a lot of supplies, you are trying to arbitrarily lower them for the TIEs.

Even under combat conditions a tie fighter can go from South to North America in a few minutes if your mach 9 theory is correct.

Note that YOU are the one that brought up this idea.

Burden of proof, fucktard. You have to show that yours is higher.

I didn't claim that mine is higher. Hence why I said that their speed hasn't been quantified yet.

And all that applies to any earth forces, except even more so.

You're suddenly changing the scenario. We were talking about the logistics of invading Antarctica. Both sides wouldn't be on Antarctica.

Yes it is. Because you made no argument related to actual engineering.

There are historians on the 19th century era that would know a lot about said battleships. Some of them are likely still preserved in memorials or museums and such. In fact, replicas and full sized ships of the line still exist today.

And part of that question is what they should have. Because any sensible invasion force would need dropships, even if they have no capship support.

An imperial invasion force would probably have a star destroyer, but that wouldn't make for an interesting thread, would it?

Besides, I already came up with a scenario as to why they don't get space ships.

I did not change anything here. Manufacturing something in a lab is not usefull in a war. To make more than a handfull, you need large factories.

And we have large factories.

Given that you just said "aircraft carriers", you might as well. The point is that aircraft carriers do not have the range to engage something in the middle of the continent - at least not mobile targets.

That's not the point that you were making. You were implying that the aircraft carriers wouldn't be able to get within range, even though they have a range of hundreds of miles.

Moron. That just shows how resilient they are to rough terrain - else it would have toppled immedeately.

The fuck? They weren't resilient enough to handle stepping over a bunch of logs, and they weren't durable enough to withstand a bunch of swinging logs.

Given that it is a lightly armored vehicle, several tons of fast wood on each side is enough to destroy it easily.

Actually, not really.

Oh, because farm boy obviously knows how to wear advanced armor. How about you put on some NBC-gear and i expose you to toxic gas? Want to bet whether it will help you?

Clearly you ignore the first part of my post and simply focus on the second.

It obviously doesn't jam their own communicators because they are more advanced by orders of magnitudes. And jamming radio is really, really easy - supposing that Star Wars can't do it is just as moronic as everything else that comes out of your assmouth.

And since when do they get jamming devices in this scenario?

As per you saying so.

Well according to you, you want the supply amount listed in the OP to apply to tie fighters as well, so by your own admission, the tie fighters would run out of fuel in a few minutes.

I am going by the OP, which gives them fuel for months. Easily enough for everything i propose.

The OP does not give them fuel for months. It gives them enough fuel to last them from South to North America.

[Serafina]

AT-ATs can transport the materials, but that would limit the invasion force's options.

How exactly?
Besides, your force composition is pretty moronic, since it ignores all the other vehicles the imperials normally have.

Friendly territory has the effect of you not being shot at when you cross it. Maybe the people in the territory will help you.

Just as i thought, you are a moron.
The locals actually attacking armed military forces is only a concern if you garrison your forces. And then the major danger is to your supply lines, not to your armed forces. That's because adults are normally smart enough to not be suicidal.
And how exactly can the locals help you? If you need food from the locals, you are already fucked. The best thing they can do is act as guides, but that is only of limited help.

Even under combat conditions a tie fighter can go from South to North America in a few minutes if your mach 9 theory is correct.

Note that YOU are the one that brought up this idea.

Yes, i brought it up - to mocj your stupidity.
Besides, you do not get what i am saying. As per your OP, the force can fight their way to North America. During that time, the TIEs would logicalls support them - that adds ups to hundreds of flight hours at least.

I didn't claim that mine is higher. Hence why I said that their speed hasn't been quantified yet.

And yet you solely use your speed.

You're suddenly changing the scenario. We were talking about the logistics of invading Antarctica. Both sides wouldn't be on Antarctica.

My Antarctica-example applies just as much to any other hazardous, remote territory. Such as much of South America.

There are historians on the 19th century era that would know a lot about said battleships. Some of them are likely still preserved in memorials or museums and such. In fact, replicas and full sized ships of the line still exist today.

Stop strawmanning. We are talking about ICBMS, the ships were just an example.

An imperial invasion force would probably have a star destroyer, but that wouldn't make for an interesting thread, would it?

Besides, I already came up with a scenario as to why they don't get space ships.

You did? Where?
Either way, there is a difference here. Because you have arbitrarily altered their comat capabilites. You might as well strip them of their weapons.

And we have large factories.

Which do not have the right tools to produce your non-nuclear ICBMs. Evidently, you do not understand modern industrial production.

That's not the point that you were making. You were implying that the aircraft carriers wouldn't be able to get within range, even though they have a range of hundreds of miles.

Guess what. South America is large. Look on a map sometimes.

The fuck? They weren't resilient enough to handle stepping over a bunch of logs, and they weren't durable enough to withstand a bunch of swinging logs.

Hey, guess what, moron:
The conditions that made the AT-ST topple were such that it was really hard to stay upright. And the AT-ST managed to do so for several seconds.

Actually, not really.

The logs were large, heavy and fast. Do you have any idea how much energy was behind that impact? Do you evne understand basic physics?

Clearly you ignore the first part of my post and simply focus on the second.

Oh, right. Sorry, your posts are just so devoid of content that i forgot.
A weak spot doesn't mean the whole armor is weak. And what we have seen is easily enough to protect you in the jungle. Certainly much better than any modern equipment.

And since when do they get jamming devices in this scenario?

They are standard equipment.
Hey, look, you try to arbitrarily alter their combat capabilities then. How about taking away their armor, or their blasters?

The OP does not give them fuel for months. It gives them enough fuel to last them from South to North America.

Moron. You wrote the following:

The invaders have:

enough supplies to last them from North to South America

There. The whole force has enough supplies to fight their way all that way. Which means lots of fuel for the TIEs.

[ray245]

There are historians on the 19th century era that would know a lot about said battleships. Some of them are likely still preserved in memorials or museums and such. In fact, replicas and full sized ships of the line still exist today.

Goddamit, how old are you? You clearly have no idea what is engineering all about. Look, building a wooden ship on a large scale involves something more than historians knowing about the designs of the ships. You need workers with specialised skills to build all those 19th century ships. Problem is, it is almost impossible to find enough workers with that kind of knowledge in modern day.

You would have to take years, if not decades to train workers with those kind of specialised skills before we can even talk about building the ships.

And like Serefina pointed out, you also need to have the right tools to build things.

[Cykeisme]

This has shaped up very strangely.

Having debaters with little to no knowledge of science or engineering principles, oversimplified views of R&D, manufacturing and technological development, and being hard-headed.. that's nothing new, but it's the approach to shaping the OP here that's downright bizarre.

Why balance out one side in a versus RAR by giving them no fuel and food?! Why not just reduce the number and/or quality of soldiers and vehicles instead?

[Solauren]

Star Wars 888. Your problem with the Empire seems to be supplies. Well.....

I decided to drop some distance numbers in. Do you know how far it is from the center of South America to the center of North America? It's over 5000 miles. Depending on where in each contient you meant, it could be shorter, or further. 5000 miles appears to be about the average.

But still, it's several thousand miles.

According to your Opening Post. The Imperial forces have enough supplies to make it from South America to North America.
Presumably you don't want anyone to die of starvation or disease. So that's enough food and medical supplies. (We'll ignore Darth Vader's special needs for this).
Presumably, the Imperial forces will be fighting the entire way. This means enough Ammo to make the journey and still be fighting at the end of it.
Otherwise, your OP is incredibly badly phrased.

Now then, with that in mind. You do realize that an AT-AT can not carry 500 men, right? That means the majority of the Stormtroopers are on foot.
This means you have given them enough supplies to make a 5000 mile journey on foot.
Average human speed is roughly 4 miles per hour, over good terrain (i.e flat road). Most of this journey will not be over good terrain, but I'll ignore that. This means roughly 30 miles per day.

That's enough fuel and supplies to keep going for 166 days. At minimum. The number goes up if you take terrain, weather conditions, and time spent in 1 place fighting native forces.

Do you know what 100 Tie Fighters could do to this planet in the course of 166 days? Without bothering to go orbital? They could level the fucking planet.

Tie Fighters have kiloton level weapons. (Slave 1 has 2 kiloton per shot weapons, and it's a modified police vessel). Let's say Tie Fighters only have '1 kiloton per shot' per laser cannon.

Do you know how powerful a kiloton level weapon is? Let me put it this way; 'Little boy', the nuke that was dropped on Hiroshima, was 13 - 18 kilotons.

That means, in 6 to 9 shots, per cannon, a Tie fighter can unleash as much energy as the World War 2 nuclear stikes.

Now, reconsider your stance on the orbital bombardment into submission tactic.

100 Tie Fighters fly into orbit so they get up to speed, and then travel to their targets. They then swoop down from orbit, and each fire a dozen shots (or 12 kilotons, or 1 'Little Boy class Nuclear Warhead' level shot) into 100 targets around the world.

The Empire, without using WMDs, have just done more damage in a matter of seconds, then we've done in the last 100 years. That's probably enough to level every major city in North America. Hell, that's enough to seriously damage every state Capital in the United States, Washington DC, and the 48 top cities.

In a matter of minutes or hours, the Imperial forces have leveled the most powerful country in the world, and are now enroute to repeat that on the next most powerful country, China. Followed by Europe.

I'm sorry, no matter how you try to bend this, the Empire is going to bend us over and make the planet it's bitch.

[Star Wars 888]

Just as i thought, you are a moron.
The locals actually attacking armed military forces is only a concern if you garrison your forces. And then the major danger is to your supply lines, not to your armed forces. That's because adults are normally smart enough to not be suicidal.
And how exactly can the locals help you? If you need food from the locals, you are already fucked. The best thing they can do is act as guides, but that is only of limited help.

You still don't get it. Since when are we only talking about civilians? What about militaries?

Yes, i brought it up - to mocj your stupidity.

Blatant lie. You were bringing it up because you thought that it would support your argument. You're backtracking.

Besides, you do not get what i am saying. As per your OP, the force can fight their way to North America. During that time, the TIEs would logicalls support them - that adds ups to hundreds of flight hours at least.

Basically, you're twisting the meaning of the OP to support your side of the argument.

And yet you solely use your speed.

And yet you solely use your speed.

My Antarctica-example applies just as much to any other hazardous, remote territory. Such as much of South America.

What does this have to do with what I said? The counter invasion force can blockade Antarctica. The invasion force that's in Antarctica would have the logistical problems that being on Antarctica would cause. The counter invasion force does not start off on Antarctica. Get it?

Stop strawmanning. We are talking about ICBMS, the ships were just an example.

An incorrect example.

You did? Where?

I edited one of my posts.

Either way, there is a difference here. Because you have arbitrarily altered their comat capabilites. You might as well strip them of their weapons.

Since when did I do that? You're lying. If you're talking about the South to North America argument YOU BROUGHT THE IDEA UP.

Which do not have the right tools to produce your non-nuclear ICBMs. Evidently, you do not understand modern industrial production.

They know how to make them and have the industrial capability to make them. Sherman tanks in WW2 began production one year after a prototype was developed.

Guess what. South America is large. Look on a map sometimes.

And yet Brazil is on the coast.

Hey, guess what, moron:
The conditions that made the AT-ST topple were such that it was really hard to stay upright. And the AT-ST managed to do so for several seconds.

Sure, maybe it was really hard to stay upright, but that's the entire point of the AT-ST. Apparently however, it didn't do its job that well.

The logs were large, heavy and fast. Do you have any idea how much energy was behind that impact? Do you evne understand basic physics?

Do YOU have any idea how much energy was behind that impact?

Oh, right. Sorry, your posts are just so devoid of content that i forgot.

Wow, you make a mistake and try and insult me for it.

A weak spot doesn't mean the whole armor is weak. And what we have seen is easily enough to protect you in the jungle. Certainly much better than any modern equipment.

Perhaps, but I wasn't denying that.

They are standard equipment.

Are you sure?

Hey, look, you try to arbitrarily alter their combat capabilities then. How about taking away their armor, or their blasters?

On the contrary, you're the one that tried modifying their capabilities by giving them space transports.

I did not gimp them, and that tie fighter few minutes fuel argument was BASED OFF OF YOURS; I brought that idea up to show how your statement didn't make any sense.

Moron. You wrote the following:

The invaders have:

enough supplies to last them from North to South America

There. The whole force has enough supplies to fight their way all that way. Which means lots of fuel for the TIEs.

[/quote]

That's your interpretation of the OP. I made the OP, so my interpretation counts. They have enough supplies for a journey from South to North America. To be fair, for the tie fighters they simply have as much fuel as they generally have (although they won't be able to refuel).

[Star Wars 888]

Goddamit, how old are you? You clearly have no idea what is engineering all about. Look, building a wooden ship on a large scale involves something more than historians knowing about the designs of the ships. You need workers with specialised skills to build all those 19th century ships. Problem is, it is almost impossible to find enough workers with that kind of knowledge in modern day.

You would have to take years, if not decades to train workers with those kind of specialised skills before we can even talk about building the ships.

And like Serefina pointed out, you also need to have the right tools to build things.

Clearly you quoted my post, and then ignored the parts of it that you don't like. THERE ARE REPLICAS OF SHIPS OF THE LINE! We have replicas today. If we wanted to build ship of the lines for some reason, WE ALREADY HAVE, and we can even upgrade them to have metal hulls and far more powerful cannons.

[Star Wars 888]

Star Wars 888. Your problem with the Empire seems to be supplies. Well.....

I decided to drop some distance numbers in. Do you know how far it is from the center of South America to the center of North America? It's over 5000 miles. Depending on where in each contient you meant, it could be shorter, or further. 5000 miles appears to be about the average.

But still, it's several thousand miles.

According to your Opening Post. The Imperial forces have enough supplies to make it from South America to North America.
Presumably you don't want anyone to die of starvation or disease. So that's enough food and medical supplies. (We'll ignore Darth Vader's special needs for this).
Presumably, the Imperial forces will be fighting the entire way. This means enough Ammo to make the journey and still be fighting at the end of it.
Otherwise, your OP is incredibly badly phrased.

Now then, with that in mind. You do realize that an AT-AT can not carry 500 men, right? That means the majority of the Stormtroopers are on foot.
This means you have given them enough supplies to make a 5000 mile journey on foot.
Average human speed is roughly 4 miles per hour, over good terrain (i.e flat road). Most of this journey will not be over good terrain, but I'll ignore that. This means roughly 30 miles per day.

That's enough fuel and supplies to keep going for 166 days. At minimum. The number goes up if you take terrain, weather conditions, and time spent in 1 place fighting native forces.

Do you know what 100 Tie Fighters could do to this planet in the course of 166 days? Without bothering to go orbital? They could level the fucking planet.

Tie Fighters have kiloton level weapons. (Slave 1 has 2 kiloton per shot weapons, and it's a modified police vessel). Let's say Tie Fighters only have '1 kiloton per shot' per laser cannon.

Do you know how powerful a kiloton level weapon is? Let me put it this way; 'Little boy', the nuke that was dropped on Hiroshima, was 13 - 18 kilotons.

That means, in 6 to 9 shots, per cannon, a Tie fighter can unleash as much energy as the World War 2 nuclear stikes.

Now, reconsider your stance on the orbital bombardment into submission tactic.

100 Tie Fighters fly into orbit so they get up to speed, and then travel to their targets. They then swoop down from orbit, and each fire a dozen shots (or 12 kilotons, or 1 'Little Boy class Nuclear Warhead' level shot) into 100 targets around the world.

The Empire, without using WMDs, have just done more damage in a matter of seconds, then we've done in the last 100 years. That's probably enough to level every major city in North America. Hell, that's enough to seriously damage every state Capital in the United States, Washington DC, and the 48 top cities.

In a matter of minutes or hours, the Imperial forces have leveled the most powerful country in the world, and are now enroute to repeat that on the next most powerful country, China. Followed by Europe.

I'm sorry, no matter how you try to bend this, the Empire is going to bend us over and make the planet it's bitch.

The tie fighters would get as much fuel as they can hold at one time. Your interpretation of the OP is that they get enough supplies for the slowest unit (the stormtroopers) to get there. Sorry, my OP may have been badly phrased, but that's not what it says. Each unit would have enough supplies to last the trip (although I suppose that food and water and such would be shared). To be fair, we'll make an exception for the tie fighters and give them as much fuel as they generally get in one round.