Battle of Geonosis vs Modern Day Hell

[NecronLord]

Well, obviously the Baldricks would be wiped out instantly, just like the Republic wtfpwned those droids in the movies.

Oh wait, the clone army was a mess of infantry led by men with swords.

And this means what? They're still a bunch of guys with automatic weapons and support weapons, air cover and support weapons, all wearing helmets that are considerably thicker than tinfoil. They could simply mow down the Baldricks with impunity.

People make fun of redshirts for not making armor out of their packing crates. Why don't Star Wars troopers walk around wearing astroturf vests?

Pretty much everyone is saying it's a property of the shields, which they do use for protection.

Incidentally, later on we see a Droideka shoot the ground successfully near a gungan, (3:32 in that video) so it is definitely not a property of the grass in itself, perhaps it is an interaction with the perimeter of the theatre shield, or some strange property of the hand-shields.

Amusing though the image of rebel assault commandos using grass shirts to defeat stormtroopers is.

[Shroom Man 777]

Speaking of the Jedi, they can just use the Force to Force Choke the blood vessels of Abrigor's brain. With their leader now a stroke victim suffering from hemiplegia and aphasia and stuff, the Baldricks become a disorganized force. This will have a drastic effect on the performance of the demon army, since in the original battle you had Abrigor running around relaying commands. But now he is turned into a vegetable. Do you know that victims of strokes often piss on themselves? The normal amount of human urine per hour is 30ccs. I wonder what amount of pee per hour do daemons excrete, for quantification/calculation's sake. Somewhat related to this, they could also use the Force to Force Choke the nephrons of Abrigor's kidneys (assuming demons have kidneys). Now being unable to filter his bodily wastes into pee, urea and other toxins will accumulate in Abrigor's blood, leading to altered consciousness amongst other physiological symptoms that will eventually lead to death.

[NecronLord]

And this means what? They're still a bunch of guys with automatic weapons and support weapons, air cover and support weapons, all wearing helmets that are considerably thicker than tinfoil. They could simply mow down the Baldricks with impunity.

Maybe they could, but they wouldn't. In these kind of situations, you assume they will still act in-character. (Or is that only when saying huff huff redshirts die lol?)

Have you read Armegeddon? The Baldricks roar and charge. Are you saying they're too dumb to shoot those guys?

They could have stayed back and gunned down the droids too,

The droids had equivalent guns, and the objective was to seize the CIS leaders so that their rebellion wouldn't spread. Neither is the case here.

[NecronLord]

Speaking of the Jedi, they can just use the Force to Force Choke the blood vessels of Abrigor's brain.

No they can't. The average jedi never does that, and it's unlikely they have a solid grasp of how to do it.

They can however just fire an LAAT rocket at the big chap with horns.

[Shroom Man 777]

Speaking of the Jedi, they can just use the Force to Force Choke the blood vessels of Abrigor's brain.

No they can't. The average jedi never does that, and it's unlikely they have a solid grasp of how to do it.

They could do it, except it's not moral for the Jedi to do it and also because of the Shroud of the Darkside something-something means that whenever the Jedi could have used precog or powers to do something like, say, avoid getting punched in the face by some shmuck like Jango Fett, we can say that it's just the Shroud of the Darkside's fault that the Jedi did end up getting stupidly punched in the face by Jango Feet and otherwise without the Shroud of the Darkside the Jedi would be all invincibles or somethings.

They can however just fire an LAAT rocket at the big chap with horns.

There are many big chaps with horns though.

Destructionator is right with this one. The Jedi love to lead their men in stupid charges. The only time the Clonetroopers did NOT charge was in Kashykk, where the Clonetroopers just stayed in elevated positions to shoot at the incoming droids, but that was because Yoda had 900 years of wise Jedi experience. Otherwise, without 900 years of wise Jedi experience, the Jedi will not know better and will lead their men to charge the enemy. This is what the Jedi always do all the time in the Clone Wars. Why do they do it? I don't know. Maybe their pre-cog tells them to charge and so they charge, and because they will charge then they pre-cognitively know that they will charge in the future and when that future comes, the Jedi end up charging and that future becomes present, and after they charge that future becomes a past. Like stupids.

[NecronLord]

Why do I assume the range can be closed? It is how they fight! The Jedi charge in with their swords, with the clones right behind them.

Err, you are aware that the battle is being fought across plains and they had to get across them? There's no such issue here.

[Shroom Man 777]

But the Clonetroopers were able to engage the droids from quite far away with their blasters, man. Hell, that doesn't make sense either. In environments like those, won't you have mechanized forces dominate the whole flat field? Since when does infantry action happen over wide flat plains when tanks and armor are readily available? God, that's so weird, how the Clonetrooper infantry ended up outrunning their own armored walker units. Goddamn what stupid mecha.

[NecronLord]

Destructionator is right with this one. The Jedi love to lead their men in stupid charges. The only time the Clonetroopers did NOT charge was in Kashykk,

And on Utapau. That's not a charge. You two are stating that any time a clone trooper advances is a 'charge.'

But the Clonetroopers were able to engage the droids from quite far away with their blasters, man. Hell, that doesn't make sense either. In environments like those, won't you have mechanized forces dominate the whole flat field? Since when does infantry action happen over wide flat plains when tanks and armor are readily available?

Readily available for the lucky few.

Acclamator Gunship: 16,000 troops.
LAAT gunships: 80 - Capable of carrying 30 each. 2,400 total.
48 AT-TE walkers: Capable of carrying 38 clone troopers each: 1,824 total.

Unless you expect 11,776 troops to wait for their transports to cycle back to them (another way the troops could outrun the transports by the by) then they're going to have to get out and use Shank's Mule. (And if the transports do cycle back they've gotta debark the guys onboard somewhere, either way you have 11,776 troopers on foot per Acclamator at any given time during the battle)

You can argue that this is stupid, I may be inclined to agree, but neither you nor I know how practicable it would be to support more transports on board. The machinery to support that many takes up a substantial part of the ship's interior volume.

God, that's so weird, how the Clonetrooper infantry ended up outrunning their own armored walker units. Goddamn what stupid mecha.

All Mechas are stupid.

[Darth Hoth]

They could do it, except it's not moral for the Jedi to do it and also because of the Shroud of the Darkside something-something means that whenever the Jedi could have used precog or powers to do something like, say, avoid getting punched in the face by some shmuck like Jango Fett, we can say that it's just the Shroud of the Darkside's fault that the Jedi did end up getting stupidly punched in the face by Jango Feet and otherwise without the Shroud of the Darkside the Jedi would be all invincibles or somethings.

Your debating is improving, Shroom! This is about the first sensible post I have seen from you since . . . Well, ever, basically.

[Shroom Man 777]

They could do it, except it's not moral for the Jedi to do it and also because of the Shroud of the Darkside something-something means that whenever the Jedi could have used precog or powers to do something like, say, avoid getting punched in the face by some shmuck like Jango Fett, we can say that it's just the Shroud of the Darkside's fault that the Jedi did end up getting stupidly punched in the face by Jango Feet and otherwise without the Shroud of the Darkside the Jedi would be all invincibles or somethings.

Your debating is improving, Shroom! This is about the first sensible post I have seen from you since . . . Well, ever, basically.

I am actually mocking the whole Shroud of the Darkside bullshit. Um, oh, Obi Wan not using the Force to break Jango's arms or whatever was because of the Shroud of the Darkside! Obi Wan not being able to use Pre-Cog to dodge Jango's headbutt was because of the Shroud of the Darkside! Without the Shroud of the Darkside, the Jedi would've dodged everything! Not even the Flash could hit him! Let's use the Shroud of the Darkside to explain scenes whenever the Jedi aren't uber and when they are fuck up! Blah blah blah. Rar, Jedi's use the Force to give bad guy brain aneurysm! VICTORY! Hahahaha!

And on Utapau. That's not a charge. You two are stating that any time a clone trooper advances is a 'charge.'

Well... Utapau's environment was all weird and vertical, so I don't think it they could've charged there. Would rapelling en masse into enemy fire count as a charge?

It's funny when they subverted that Jedi Charge TVTrope (:D) in that Order 66 scene. That big-headed conehead Jedi led a charge on that snowy planet, yet the other Clonetroopers just stood back behind him and shot him in the back. They probably thought "ah, finally, fuck you and your Jedi Charge, Jedi Conehead".

Readily available for the lucky few.

Acclamator Gunship: 16,000 troops.
LAAT gunships: 80 - Capable of carrying 30 each. 2,400 total.
48 AT-TE walkers: Capable of carrying 38 clone troopers each: 1,824 total.

Unless you expect 11,776 troops to wait for their transports to cycle back to them (another way the troops could outrun the transports by the by) then they're going to have to get out and use Shank's Mule. (And if the transports do cycle back they've gotta debark the guys onboard somewhere, either way you have 11,776 troopers on foot per Acclamator at any given time during the battle)

You can argue that this is stupid, I may be inclined to agree, but neither you nor I know how practicable it would be to support more transports on board. The machinery to support that many takes up a substantial part of the ship's interior volume.

This is true. But still, we saw so many soldiers advancing and charging AHEAD of the walkers. That's so weird. Wouldn't infantry stay within close proximity of the armor, or even behind it, to not get killed? It's like the walkers were just staying back and giving fire support while the infantry did the main fighting/dying. Shouldn't it be the armor that spearheads, and the infantry that supports them by taking out sappers/etc.? It'd ridiculous to see the infantry charge outrun the armor. Bah.

All Mechas are stupid.

[/quote][/quote]

But they intimidate the enemy! *construes ridiculous senareo contrived to explain stupid walkers in Imperial Army whatever*

[bogy_shashav]

You know...Abigor WILL handle better VS clones and droids...Republic gunships are -welll... gunships - harpies tear up gunships. Sure blasters pack more punch than an m4, HOWEVER not when the users tend to shoot each other from 20 meters. Its not the size of your guns its how you use them.
Deamons are still big bad and hard as nails and remember - they mostly die from bleeding out - and blasters cauterise the wound. The one and only thing they need - is a chance to close in and engage the enemy in close combat. Which happens to be the other side's preferred tactics as well. Imagine 5000 harpies descending on say...Yoda's landing zone/command post. It will be complete chaos and devastation. Or demonic cavalry charging the clones/droids. Once the two forces mix up superior firepower is negated or you'd end up bombarding your own army - the separatists won't have any problems with wiping some more droids, but the clones...The clones will very likely be routed from the field.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Clones were opening fire with their blasters from kilometers (or at least a lot of meters) away though. That scene in AOTC gave Star Wars blasters very long ranges.

[Darth Hoth]

I am actually mocking the whole Shroud of the Darkside bullshit. Um, oh, Obi Wan not using the Force to break Jango's arms or whatever was because of the Shroud of the Darkside! Obi Wan not being able to use Pre-Cog to dodge Jango's headbutt was because of the Shroud of the Darkside! Without the Shroud of the Darkside, the Jedi would've dodged everything! Not even the Flash could hit him! Let's use the Shroud of the Darkside to explain scenes whenever the Jedi aren't uber and when they are fuck up! Blah blah blah. Rar, Jedi's use the Force to give bad guy brain aneurysm! VICTORY! Hahahaha!

I was reasonably certain that you were being sarcastic and passive-aggressive, as usual, and my reply used some sarcasm of its own.

Nevertheless, what you said in the post was actually correct. The Jedi's powers did canonically diminish due to the "Shroud" (or whatever one would call it), and this explains why their performance is worse than in some other material (EU, mostly).

[bogy_shashav]

The Clones were opening fire with their blasters from kilometers (or at least a lot of meters) away though. That scene in AOTC gave Star Wars blasters very long ranges.

I never said they don't have the range. They just don't use it properly. If they are coming close enough for the Jedi to start chopping droids...well that's close enough for daemons that can run twice as fast as a human.

[Srelex]

Did we even see the Jedi get in close on the plains battle? I believe that Inside The Worlds make out that Jedi would serve to help deflect in coming fire and help co-ordinate things. Besides, the Republic did at least make effective use of close air support, which would help here.

[NecronLord]

Well... Utapau's environment was all weird and vertical, so I don't think it they could've charged there. Would rapelling en masse into enemy fire count as a charge?

No. Your objective of 'capture Grievous and/or the Confederate Council for trial' literally can not be achieved without doing something like that. It is automatically an acceptable tactic if it's the only way to accomplish the mission.

This is true. But still, we saw so many soldiers advancing and charging AHEAD of the walkers. That's so weird. Wouldn't infantry stay within close proximity of the armor, or even behind it, to not get killed? It's like the walkers were just staying back and giving fire support while the infantry did the main fighting/dying. Shouldn't it be the armor that spearheads, and the infantry that supports them by taking out sappers/etc.? It'd ridiculous to see the infantry charge outrun the armor. Bah.

See what I just said. To deploy that many men to the front, the walkers, which are also the APCs (There was no direct republic tank analogue here, only APCs, space hueys, and artillery) must rotate back to the ship to get more.

[Darksider]

Well at this point in the war none of the Jedi have any real military experience, and all of their training is probably based on legends of the Great Sith War or something.

Perhaps there was a screw up in communications or coordination efforts which enabled the infantry to advance ahead of the armor for some reason.

[Shroom Man 777]

No. Your objective of 'capture Grievous and/or the Confederate Council for trial' literally can not be achieved without doing something like that. It is automatically an acceptable tactic if it's the only way to accomplish the mission.

Okay, I guess it works for this occasion. That makes sense.

See what I just said. To deploy that many men to the front, the walkers, which are also the APCs (There was no direct republic tank analogue here, only APCs, space hueys, and artillery) must rotate back to the ship to get more.

But the soldiers were running ahead of the tanks. It would be alright if the soldiers just stayed beside/behind the tank. But running in front of the tank, outrunning the tank, and leaving it behind? That might work in an urban terrain where infantry advances ahead of armor to deal with hidden sappers. But in an open field? I guess this was because the walkers were slower than footmobile Clonetroopers, but still. Man. Could you imagine a modern day tank battle where the tanks are moving slow like molasses, while the soldiers are running like idiots in front of the tanks and leaving the tanks behind while running towards the enemy lines while the enemy guys are also charging towards you? That works for Lord of the Rings where they've got swords and crap. Not in modern/post-modern warfare. But I guess the Clonetroopers and Jedi were confusing post-modern warfare with post-modern art.

[bogy_shashav]

Did we even see the Jedi get in close on the plains battle? I believe that Inside The Worlds make out that Jedi would serve to help deflect in coming fire and help co-ordinate things. Besides, the Republic did at least make effective use of close air support, which would help here.

Help - yes but if you ask me - i'd bet on the harpies, not on the gunships. Quantity has a quality of its own. And no - we did not see them do it, though both forces are no more than a couple of kilometres away at the beginning of the battle, and they both charge each other - no one holds to shoot properly. Its not the hardware here - its the complete lack of any proper tactics. Like reading that Space marine manual -
rule 1 ATTACK FROM THE FRONT!
rule 2 ALWAYS ATTACK FROM THE FRONT!
rule 3 IF THE ENEMY POSITION HAS HEAVILY FORTIFIED FRONT - FEINT A FLANKING ATTACK AND THEN ATTACK FROM THE FRONT!

As Darksider said - no actual combat experience.

[Shroom Man 777]

I dunno. Those walkers would easily just step on the daemons and shoot them from far away with impunity. If the Clonetroopers pointed their guns upwards and opened up on the Harpies, they'll be in a world of hurt. Those LAAT gunships are also quite heavily armed and, most importantly, they can fly from orbit to the atmosphere, and from the atmosphere to orbit on their own power. So they can fly faster and further and higher than any stupid daemonoid with stupid flapping wings.

The LAAT gunships just fly to the stratosphere and use those beam-lasers of theirs and blasters and missiles to fuck over the Harpies. The Harpies are no different from a flock of geese, except they've got claws. The LAATs can handle them.

[NecronLord]

But the soldiers were running ahead of the tanks. It would be alright if the soldiers just stayed beside/behind the tank. But running in front of the tank, outrunning the tank, and leaving it behind?

Oh FFS. I am going to have to draw you a goddamn diagram of what I'm talking about aren't I?

Code: Select all

                  ^
                /   \
               /     \
              /       \
             /         \      <----- empty AT-TEs -------- cccccccccc           DUMB ROBOT
            /           \    ------ loaded AT-TEs -------> ccccccccc            BAD GUYS
           /             \
           |_____   _____|
                  ||

Your alternative is you can have a few thousand men ride in the AT-TEs at the front, while the other ten thousand have to run to keep up. Yes. The Acclamator is clearly understocked to deploy a proper mechanised infantry force, but we have no idea what the logistics behind its loadout are, and so are not qualified to comment on whether it could feasibly be done better. Regardless you will have to have thousands of clones footslogging at any one time, because there simply are not enough AT-TEs and LAATs to go around.

Your choice, clone commander, is to have the AT-TEs advance as far as they can, and drop guys off, then go back to reload on both ammunition (that thing's a railgun) and men, or to have the AT-TEs go as far as they can, and then carry men back when it needs to reload its guns, while the other ten thousand march around the feet of your landing craft looking pretty.

[Darksider]

Necronlord, to be perfectly honest, I think Shroomie's got you on the Jedi-clone stupidity. It would be explainable if they only acted like this once, but clones and Jedi are seen constantly charging at the enemy when they don't have to. It seems like the Jedi are caught up in the "warriors of ancient legend" method of fighting and are hell-bent on valiantly charging the enemy even when they don't have to. Look at the battles of Christophsis and Kayyyshyk. In both situations the Clones were entrenched against and advancing droid force, with heavy artillery support, and were firing from cover against advancing enemy forces. Then the Jedi order them to break cover and charge the enemy like morons. In TCW series, we constantly see that the Clones do know how to use cover and suppressing fire, but constantly break it to charge for seemingly no reason whatsoever. I think Lord Wong is right in his Ep 3 analysis when he postulates that the clones have some sort of spartan warrior code (maybe more Mando'a bullshit?) that makes them charge like idiots.

[Srelex]

Frankly, clone tactics generally depend on the writer. In some novels, I believe, they deploy smarter tactics, but if you want specific examples it'll take me a while to dredge them up.

[NecronLord]

Necronlord, to be perfectly honest, I think Shroomie's got you on the Jedi-clone stupidity. It would be explainable if they only acted like this once, but clones and Jedi are seen constantly charging at the enemy when they don't have to. It seems like the Jedi are caught up in the "warriors of ancient legend" method of fighting and are hell-bent on valiantly charging the enemy even when they don't have to. Look at the battles of Christophsis and Kayyyshyk. In both situations the Clones were entrenched against and advancing droid force, with heavy artillery support, and were firing from cover against advancing enemy forces. Then the Jedi order them to break cover and charge the enemy like morons.

Actually, let's take a good look at this.
Christophsis:
Yes, there is charging. The Jedi also order the clones to take defensive position when this is done and force the droids to retreat with artillery fire. This is an explicit and absolute disproof of the notion that the Jedi are incapable of staying put and shooting at the enemy.
Kashyyyk
Wookies charge. Clones move up in support. In no way can this be attributed to the Jedi or the clones. The clones react to what the Wookies do.
Order 66 Montage:
1m, Utapau assault. We see Clone Troopers advancing here. This is not an 'idiot charge' given that it's motion-capture of actual US soldiers being asked to behave as they would, with a few extra 'this is a giant spider droid, jump on it' bits in there. As mentioned before the mission objectives directly require the clones to capture of the coreship Unlimited Projection and the Confederate Council. This is something that cannot be done without putting clones into the Unlimited Projection.
Ki Adi Mundi leading a 'charge' on a bridge, which consists of gesturing to one squad of galactic marines to follow him. I take it every time a sergeant gestures for his men to follow him into danger, he's basically shouting Banzai and running at machine guns? The scenario here is combat on bridges, which entirely justifies close quarter fighting.
Aayla Secura stops to survey an area.
3:19, Fighter sortie. Not a charge.
Yoda supervises battle, the droids are actually taking the beach here.

I'm going to discount the anime-esque Clone Wars series entirely, because that just depicts hundreds of soldiers doing the same thing at the same time because that saves money on animation.


And don't mistake my point. I'm not saying the Jedi are either competant or qualified leaders. They're not. They're Space FBI men who've suddenly been given the title of general. They are incompetant. I am disputing this notion that they will somehow be compelled to take all their soldiers and run them at the Baldricks' massed ranks.

[Shroom Man 777]

NecronLord, I get that there are not enough walkers to transport all the troops, okay? I'm just saying that when confronted by an enemy combined arms attack, it's kind of stupid for the infantry to stand at the front (and running forwards to enemy fire!) instead of, say, taking cover or using the cover of the walker/tanks while advancing in a more measured pace.