Battle of Geonosis vs Modern Day Hell

[D.Turtle]

IIRC, they were trying to capture the Confederate Council and end the civil war before it gets underway. Thats why no orbital bombardment, and thats why they physically have to get close to that location.

As for the vehicles staying farther back in comparison to the troopers, that can be explained quite easily: The vehicles alone are not enough to blast through the droid army blocking them, hence they need infantry support. The same vehicles can safely engage from farther back, why should they close the distance and make themselves more vulnerable to attacks from missiles, and other weapons?

Thats why you have the infantry moving ahead of the vehicles supporting them. Once the droid army is largely destroyed, the vehicles can then quickly blast past the remaining bits, advance to the objective and unload the troops they have onboard to quickly seize it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Um, armor is supposed to do the majority of the killfuckery. There's something wrong if the infantry's the one with the firepower doing the droid army-killing instead of the tanks. Can you imagine Desert Storm with soldiers running in front of the Abrams, with infantry moving ahead of the main battle tanks? And once the infantry... uhh... destroyed the Iraqi army and the T-72s... then the Abrams can then quickly blast past the remaining bits, advance past the objective, blah blah blah.

Just imagine how ridiculous it is for soldiers to charge while the IFVs and Abrams just sat back and did diddlysquat, assuming if the IFVs and Abrams were moving slower than running speed. If the droid army fortified themselves, ala trench warfare, those charging Clonies would be dead meat. Man.

[D.Turtle]

Except the droid army wasn't entrenched, and that speed was important (in order to capture the leadership). They were too slow as it is.

And the vehicles didn't sit back and do diddlysquat, they were engaging the enemy army, and moving up with the infantry. They just didn't go ahead of the infantry, as that would be suicide.

[adam_grif]

The more scifi debates I read, the more convinced I am that the entire concept is irreparably stupid. The stupid high end figures for guns are usually given out in bullet point form in some technical manual, or drawn from one instance of something that the creative teams clearly didn't think through. Oh, the laser evaporated the asteroid, therefore the SD guns are six hojillion exatonnes in firepower. Then everybody goes through the ridiculous mental gymnastics taken straight of the Young Earth Creationist tactical manual to explain why the capabilities are never demonstrated in any of the other times they ought to have been. It's not just SW of course, but since SW comes up so often here it's the most visible example to me. No, the guns are definitely billion gigatonne yield, it's just that all of the armor in SWverse is so amazing that it looks like the guns are pathetically weak. Oh, someone got shot with a blaster that makes concrete explode violently but only got a minor burn? It's not a chain reaction thing, it's obvious that the skin-tight outfit on Leia is just super duper starwars amazing armor. Whatever.

My favorites are "Shroud of the Dark Side" for explaining away any and all of the rampant Jedi idiocy we see, and "Jamming" as the catch all explanation for why everything looks and acts like a WWII naval battle in space. It's so fucking clear that nobody involved in making these SciFi universes gives a flying fuck about any of this stuff.

[Shroom Man 777]

@ D. Turtle

Speed was important? So they had to go fast, like, at the lightning speed of a running/jogging clonetrooper?

Why would it be suicide for them to go in front of the enemy? They're armor. That's as dumb as saying that the Abrams and Bradley IFVs would be cowering behind the grunts because if, gasp, the Abrams and Bradley ARMORED VEHICLES advanced in front of the infantry they would be doomed. Oh no!

But then again, as NecronLord pointed out, maybe this does make sense. If the Acclamators brought only few walkers, and a whole fuckload of clonetroopers, like too many clonetroopers for each walker, then maybe. Apparently the stupidity of the Jedi's tactics coul be explained by the fact that the clonetroopers could be considered as expendable meatshields for the relatively more valuable armor.

Imagine, sending infantry waves in front of the Abrams and Bradleys because the Abrams and Bradleys are so valuable that it's better to waste the soldiers by sending them charging and running towards the enemy lines of fire. LOL.

EDIT:

Jesus Christ, this is why you send tanks and armor BEFORE the infantry! Because they have shitloads of armor, they can withstand the enemy's firepower - UNLIKE stupid light infantry. The tanks also have superior firepower, which can kill the fuck out of the enemy. WHEN the tanks have killed the fuckeroos out of the enemy tanks and heavy weapons, you can send the infantry out there when they WON'T be killfuckerized by ridiculous volumes of enemy fire (since the tanks already fucked the enemy).

[D.Turtle]

Speed was important? So they had to go fast, like, at the speed of a running/jogging clonetrooper?

Speed, as in the speed of killing the army. Once the army is largely destroyed, the vehicles surge ahead.

Why would it be suicide for them to go in front of the enemy? They're armor. That's as dumb as saying that the Abrams and Bradley IFVs would be cowering behind the grunts because if, gasp, the Abrams and Bradley ARMORED VEHICLES advanced in front of the infantry they would be doomed. Oh no!

As it is, several armored transports were destroyed by missiles and the like from the droid army. Even nowadays, armor advancing alone towards infantry IS suicide (or at the very least very dangerous) as there is enough man-portable weaponry going around to destroy that armor. The droid army was simply too large to simply charge through with armor.

But then again, as NecronLord pointed out, maybe this does make sense. If the Acclamators brought only few walkers, and a whole fuckload of clonetroopers, like too many clonetroopers for each walker, then maybe. Apparently the stupidity of the Jedi's tactics coul be explained by the fact that the clonetroopers could be considered as expendable meatshields for the relatively more valuable armor.

Exactly. And again the infantry wouldn't advance all the way themselves (or rather ahead with armor support), but only far enough to destroy enough of the droid army, so that the armor can advance to the objective alone, unload their infantry and take the objective.

Imagine, sending infantry waves in front of the Abrams and Bradleys because the Abrams and Bradleys are so valuable that it's better to waste the soldiers by sending them charging and running towards the enemy lines of fire. LOL.

The infantry wasn't alone, the armor was advancing with them.

@adam_grif: The problem is largely one limited to movies. Battles between forces light-minutes apart are hard to depict on-screen. Same with fighter and missiles pulling hundreds and thousands of g.

As for the effects of weapons: It is entirely reasonable to suggest/implement defences that are on par with the offensive capabilities. Thats what you see everywhere in reality.

That there are outliers (like Leia being hit) are vexing, but thats what you get from movies. It's just like you have people being hit in the head today and still being able to fight on, airplanes being riddles by hundreds of shots, with the pilot living in WW2, or whatever.

[Shroom Man 777]

Speed, as in the speed of killing the army. Once the army is largely destroyed, the vehicles surge ahead.

God, it's so pathetic that their speedy blitzkreig barely amounts to the speed of a running clonetrooper or a ridiculously slow walker. A fucking molasses fueled T-34 armored in 1960s GRAPHS could outspeed that speed.

As it is, several armored transports were destroyed by missiles and the like from the droid army. Even nowadays, armor advancing alone towards infantry IS suicide (or at the very least very dangerous) as there is enough man-portable weaponry going around to destroy that armor. The droid army was simply too large to simply charge through with armor.

So a large and well armored enemy can defeat well-armed and well-armored tanks. So we send hordes of less-armed and less-armored infantry AHEAD of the tanks to DIE IN THE HUNDREDS/THOUSANDS?

Armor advancing towards infantry is suicide. For the infantry. I mean, shit, use your brains, if the enemy has weapons capable of killing heavily armored tanks, do you think infantry will be better off charging them? What is this, a Lord of the Rings cavalry charge? The charging infantry will be SLAUGHTERED.

Exactly. And again the infantry wouldn't advance all the way themselves (or rather ahead with armor support), but only far enough to destroy enough of the droid army, so that the armor can advance to the objective alone, unload their infantry and take the objective.

Jesus Christ. If the droid army can kill tanks, do you think the infantry would fare any better? Hint: they get massacred.

Jesus Christ. Just image DESERT STORM, man. Imagine against the Iraqi Army, how stupid it would look like if the US Army ordered hundreds of soldiers and GIs to RUN/CHARGE IN FRONT/AHEAD OF THE TANKS! LOL! Have you ever seen soldiers advance in front of Abrams/Bradleys? That's fucking stupid.

The infantry wasn't alone, the armor was advancing with them.

They outran the armor because Star Wars uses stupid gundamechanimumangoes that can't even keep up with running humans.

Also I apologize in advance for capitalizing shit like Batman.

[MKSheppard]

Oh, the laser evaporated the asteroid, therefore the SD guns are six hojillion exatonnes in firepower. Then everybody goes through the ridiculous mental gymnastics taken straight of the Young Earth Creationist tactical manual to explain why the capabilities are never demonstrated in any of the other times they ought to have been. It's not just SW of course, but since SW comes up so often here it's the most visible example to me. No, the guns are definitely billion gigatonne yield, it's just that all of the armor in SWverse is so amazing that it looks like the guns are pathetically weak.

Or.....you know; atmospheric scattering prevents the firing of the guns at their exo-atmospheric power levels?

You can fire a multi-gigaton turbolaser in space with no ill effects because space is a very very good insulator. But if you fired it in an atmosphere, the thermal bloom and atmospheric scattering would bathe the entire area around the gun in hard radiation and awesome heat; cooking the gun crew and anyone nearby alive.

[Ford Prefect]

You can fire a multi-gigaton turbolaser in space with no ill effects because space is a very very good insulator. But if you fired it in an atmosphere, the thermal bloom and atmospheric scattering would bathe the entire area around the gun in hard radiation and awesome heat; cooking the gun crew and anyone nearby alive.

Yeah, because obviously in space waste heat isn't an issue.

[D.Turtle]

@Shroom: As a former tank commander/gunner, I can tell you, armor advancing alone towards infantry is suicide. Thats what anti-tank missiles do. Those same anti-tank missiles are relatively ineffective against infantry. Thats why armor and infantry advances together (like depicted in the movie).

Once the enemy army is destroyed, the armored vehicles can advance with their real speed. Before that, they are forced to wait on the infantry.

And let me tell you, nothing is more vexing than waiting for those damn infantry to get a move on it... (Except dieing).

[Shroom Man 777]

Still, isn't it stupid for the infantry to run AHEAD of the tanks and straight into the enemy lines of fire? Shouldn't they, I don't know, advance TOGETHER with the armor like you say, instead of outrunning the tanks?

[MKSheppard]

Yeah, because obviously in space waste heat isn't an issue.

The reason waste heat is an issue in space is because space is a damned good insulator -- it's how they were able to take basically off the shelf Hasselblads and use them for the Apollo moonwalks without any major modifications other than a different lubrication system for the moving parts and placing a sun-shield over the lens.

It's also how if you've built something to take the recoil of a heavy turbolaser, it's already armored enough to take what little bloom that comes off the turbolaser bolt in space.

However, a certain percentage of the firing energy is retained in the system as waste heat; and you do need to dump that through radiators or pump it into heat sinks.

[D.Turtle]

Since armor can engage at larger distances than infantry, they can sit back a bit and just shoot over the infantry. Those few hundred meters are so quickly covered once you can advance that it doesn't matter.

We routinely had to wait for the infantry to do their thing, and once they were finished could advance past them. It would be stupid to advance with them towards the enemy infantry, as that just makes the armor more vulnerable. You stay back, because you can engage them, but they can't (easily) engage you.

[Shroom Man 777]

Does that work in open fields? I find it hard to believe that against another huge army, you'd send infantry to run across the desert to go into a firefight with the enemy while everything is exploding and shit.

[D.Turtle]

Well, nowadays that situation wouldn't be possible, as you have aircraft and artillery blasting the enemy apart if they gather in an open area like that, long before your army gets close enough to engage them directly.

The situation is only (vaguely) possible, because you have the capability to rapidly deploy an entire army in some position within a VERY short time. And in addition you have the requirement of insanely fast advancement in order to capture the enemy leadership before they can flee the planet.

That situation is simply impossible in the real world.

[Shroom Man 777]

They already have aircraft and artillery blasting each other apart. And it's NOT insanely fast advancement. Man, their advancement was just to the speed of running clonetroopers. I guess compared to slow-ass stupid gundamechanimu-walkers, clonetroopers running on foot would be lightning fast because those gundamechanimu-walkers are stupid slow-asses, but even compared to a fucking old woman on a moped they're all slow as shit. Insanely fast? It's insanely slow. The only thing even insanely slower would be the molasses-paced advance of the FAT-FATs at Hoth. Even a Gundamechanimumango from those Japanese animus could move faster. By backflipping.

[D.Turtle]

In the face of enemy opposition on the scale seen? That was insanely fast advancement.

Let me put it this way: In one training exercise, there was suspected enemy infantry in a position a few hundred meters ahead of us. This required us to hold our position, let the infantry dismount, advance to that point and clear it before we could advance further. This took at least half an hour.

The entire battle on Geonosis took that long. That is insanely fast.

What you are missing, is that its a very different thing simply moving somewhere without opposition, and advancing in the face of enemy opposition (especially on the scale seen on Geonosis).

And again, I would expect, that once the droid army is largely destroyed, the armored support would surge ahead.

[NecronLord]

NecronLord, I get that there are not enough walkers to transport all the troops, okay? I'm just saying that when confronted by an enemy combined arms attack, it's kind of stupid for the infantry to stand at the front (and running forwards to enemy fire!) instead of, say, taking cover or using the cover of the walker/tanks while advancing in a more measured pace.

Cover of the walkers.

And that terrain is neither very good cover or concealment. There's one low rock outcrop the clones can hide behind and that's about it. So unless you expect them to dig a trench under fire, there's no way they're going to use cover.

They bunch up like retards, but I don't find the idea of them being on foot at all stupid. Similarly, they have to advance. Their job is to capture the facilities on Geonosis, not 'dig in around their acclamators'.

So, we've established that they're on foot, they literally cannot not have about ten thousand in every sixteen thousand on foot at any given time. We've established that they must advance.

How are they going to do that without a foot advance? Remembering that most of them are on foot... and they have to advance. Perhaps the AT-TEs can lollop ahead and therefore leave the vast majority of the army without any kind of armour? Certainly. I'm not really convinced that would be any better though.

The more scifi debates I read, the more convinced I am that the entire concept is irreparably stupid.

What's your point? Are you asking if we think that Star Wars (and most Sci-fi) battles look stupid? The answer (on my part) is yes. The firepower doesn't actually matter regarding how stupid they may or may not be. It would be stupid if they had Lee Enfield rifles or if they had super-space-rifles.

If you want Sci-fi with convincing tactics, you're going to have fun looking for it in live action sources.

[NecronLord]

In the face of enemy opposition on the scale seen? That was insanely fast advancement.

Let me put it this way: In one training exercise, there was suspected enemy infantry in a position a few hundred meters ahead of us. This required us to hold our position, let the infantry dismount, advance to that point and clear it before we could advance further. This took at least half an hour.

In fairness, I imagine clone tactics, especially here, are basically heedless of clone deaths.

Of course, it's still uncommonly quick. But there's a simple and bloody explanation for why that is. (Also the droids can't shoot worth a damn)

[Shroom Man 777]

@ Necronlord:

I was expecting them to advance alongside their armor, not run ahead into a massed enemy formation and leave their tanks behind.

I would say that Geneosis wasn't fast because of the speed of the clonetrooper foot advance or the walkers. It was fast because of the airborne troops dropped by the LAAT, the LAATs themselves doing CAS, and the quick deployment of heavy combined arms from fighters and tanks to those artillery pieces that zapped the escaping CIS ships. It wasn't the stupid clonetrooper LOTR charge that won the day or did the job, but it was everything else. Like the Acclamators landing right on top of the battlefield, etc.

[D.Turtle]

Minor quibble: They actually lost the day, because the enemy leadership escaped.

In the end, the entire battle of Geonosis was a waste - they could (and should) have blasted the site from orbit, decapitating the enemy, and be done with it.

[NecronLord]

I was expecting them to advance alongside their armor,

Are you working from memory here? Because if you watch the film the clones are never more than twenty meters or so ahead of the AT-TEs. Advancing alongside their armour is precisely what most of the clones do. Watch particularly the bit before Poggle the Lesser says "We must order a retreat" where they are shown doing exactly that. For Christ's sake. The battle has enough problems without your needing to invent more.

It wasn't the stupid clonetrooper LOTR charge that won the day or did the job, but it was everything else. Like the Acclamators landing right on top of the battlefield, etc.

Will you stop saying "LotR charge" as some kind of synonym for "idiocy"? The clones' movement in no way resembles the cavalry charges in LotR except in that they're moving forwards.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah, I am working from memory. I remembered seeing a whole bunch of clones. And seeing them run right into the droids. Well, I guess I must be wrong. I better shut up now.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, I am working from memory. I remembered seeing a whole bunch of clones. And seeing them run right into the droids. Well, I guess I must be wrong. I better shut up now.

You do. It's where they're in the giant dust cloud from the falling coreship. There are however, AT-TEs with them in the scene before. They don't run right into the droids though, they sorta slowly walk forward firing from the hip (This is silly in itself of course).

Are you thinking of the retard at Chistophsis who tries to punch a droid out?

[Shroom Man 777]

The one who broke his hand and got his face smashed by the Super Battle Droid?

I preferred that ARC trooper in Coruscant who CQC'ed the shit out of those SBDs, emptied his battle rifle into a whole horde of them, smashed them with his rifle butt before continuing on killing with his pistol. To be fair, I loved those badass tacticool Clonetroopers. Those episodes were my favorite in the Clone Wars cartoon. Like, Jesus, how they saved Ki-ai-mundo or whoever by riding into that crashed Acclamator in an LAAT and shooting at Grievous with a goddamn quadgun. ARC Troopers! Badass!