A company of Space Marines and World War 2

[IvanTih]

The mission starts out going cautiously well; then goes to fucking hell after you lose quite a few NCOs and officers to snipers, and things spiral out of control after that.

Remember that 20th century small arms can't penetrate Marine's bones since they are bulletproff against more powerfull things.
By the way that would be funny situation.

[LionElJonson]

Even if they can hurt the unhelmeted Space Marines, there are canonical examples of Space Marines surviving and continuing to fight with half of their heads blown off. It'll probably take more than one sniper to take one out.

[Black Admiral]

Eh, dunno.

One thing to remember is that a lot of the artwork is deliberately iconographic: it's "art depicting" the battle, not a photorealistic image of the battle. Thus the lack of helmets.

In the written material, Space Marines are a lot better about remembering to wear their helmets, at least in most chapters.

It is, in fact, considered "unheard of" (from the POV of an experienced squad of Iron Snakes) to remove their helmets in a combat situation (only doing so because they were fighting a daemon their visor systems couldn't see but their eyes could). The only Chapter I can think of who actually go helmet-less in battle with any degree of regularity are the Space Wolves.

[Cykeisme]

The mission starts out going cautiously well; then goes to fucking hell after you lose quite a few NCOs and officers to snipers, and things spiral out of control after that.

Heh, applying the term "NCO" to 40k Adeptus Astartes RARRARARGH EMPRAH Space Marines in itself shows a complete lack of familiarity with the subject.

As though they have non-commissioned officers who lead the enlisted Space Marines, and then there would also be officers who join with a commission after going to a military college.

[NecronLord]

Eh, marines use NCO titles, seems fine to me.

But hemetless, nah.

[Ryan Thunder]

So, since orbital bombardment is out of the question and the notion of a hundred infantrymen actually controlling any significant territory is utterly laughable, how long until they run out of bolter shells and promethium and become little more than a wandering nuisance?

[Serafina]

So, since orbital bombardment is out of the question and the notion of a hundred Space Marines actually controlling any significant territory is utterly laughable, how long until they run out of bolter shells and promethium and become little more than a wandering nuisance?

That's why every conceivable working strategy must create some other means of establishing controll - it's hardly out of the question to build up actual loyalties and to it from then on with earth weapons.
Actually, considering that 40K-tech is often quite simple to produce, it might not be unconceivable that they can create some supplies in the long run. If you look at, say, Promethium - that's just fuel. You can use other stuff for flamethrowers and STK-engines can be run on pretty much everything. Bolt shells are not necessarily that complicated either, and so on.

Either way, they are equipped for a long campaign, so they can fight for years if necessary.

[Ryan Thunder]

Actually, by the OP, can they threaten Earth governments with orbital bombardment? I mean, sure, they'd be bluffing, but how would anybody know?

[Serafina]

Actually, by the OP, can they threaten Earth governments with orbital bombardment? I mean, sure, they'd be bluffing, but how would anybody know?

Yes, that's totally possible. Your tactical doctrine says "don't blow up too much stuff, we want to conquer this planet" - stay away from population centers and industrial centers. Destroying them is contrary to your target - it nets "negative score" if you want to put it like that.
But blowing up a staging ground in open terrain or using it for intimidation is perfectly fine. I actually said that two posts after the OP

[Ryan Thunder]

Actually, by the OP, can they threaten Earth governments with orbital bombardment? I mean, sure, they'd be bluffing, but how would anybody know?

Yes, that's totally possible. Your tactical doctrine says "don't blow up too much stuff, we want to conquer this planet" - stay away from population centers and industrial centers. Destroying them is contrary to your target - it nets "negative score" if you want to put it like that.
But blowing up a staging ground in open terrain or using it for intimidation is perfectly fine. I actually said that two posts after the OP

Sorry, I must've missed that. I just skimmed the thread. XD

How big are Astartes Strike Cruisers, by the way? Can they really hold supplies for years of fighting? I know that the Imperial Guard gear is designed for flexibility like what you were referring to, but I was under the impression that Astartes were better suited to short-duration, high-intensity missions, where supply lines and actually holding territory weren't that important, or very low-commitment missions, like that one from Brothers of the Snake.

[Interlord1]

I'd say the Strike cruisers were atleast 10 Km, considering a Transport in one of the Horus Heresy novels is 60Km and 6 times smaller seems like an Okay estimate.

[Cykeisme]

A company has to be ready for a lot of different kinds of deployments, from short-term low-commitment engagements like you mentioned, all the way up to the kind of grindfests that they'd throw themselves into if a Black Crusade happened, or a major warzone like Armageddon.

Additionally, don't forget that warp travel pretty slow in 40k, so a company can expect to make a round trip through space and go through more than one campaign before returning to the Chapter's homeworld for resupply and replacement of casualties. Thus, they'd be carrying sufficient ammunition, fuel, and facilities to repair their equipment for more than one campaign.
However I'm not sure if the OP will allow them to return to the ship to resupply, repair, get major medical treatment, etc.

[Serafina]

Data on the Strike Cruiser:

Crew: 50.000
Dimensions: about 4.5 km long, 1.0 km from fin to fin (estaminated from the dimensions of other light cruisers
Armament: carries two macrocannon broadsides and one dorsal bombardment cannon battery - gigaton-level firepower for each
Troops: Carries up to 100 Space Marines (one company) with equipment, supplies and vehicles, as well as an unknown number of Thunderhawks, Drop Pods and other space/planetary craft.


So yes, considering the low amount of Space Marines they have to supply and the size of the ship, they can easily supply them for several years.

[Black Admiral]

How big are Astartes Strike Cruisers, by the way?

About the same size as an Imperial Navy light cruiser, the which I don't think there's ever been an exact size put to aside from "smaller than the heavier cruisers", and those range from 3 to 9km, or in one particularly far outlier 30km.

[Darth Hoth]

Eh, dunno.

One thing to remember is that a lot of the artwork is deliberately iconographic: it's "art depicting" the battle, not a photorealistic image of the battle. Thus the lack of helmets.

In the written material, Space Marines are a lot better about remembering to wear their helmets, at least in most chapters.

Except when they feel like being extra cool. In the novel Eye of Terror, there is a flashback to the immediate post-Heresy days with a battle scene, and in it, the Space Marines take off their helmets to howl defiance at their enemies . . . in space.

Although that might not be standard procedure, given that there are counter-examples, but it does happen.

[Black Admiral]

Except when they feel like being extra cool. In the novel Eye of Terror, there is a flashback to the immediate post-Heresy days with a battle scene, and in it, the Space Marines take off their helmets to howl defiance at their enemies . . . in space.

Although that might not be standard procedure, given that there are counter-examples, but it does happen.

That was a bunch of World Eaters (psychos by any standard of measure), and the response of the Dark Angel Sergeant watching is, basically, " ".

[NecronLord]

Actually, by the OP, can they threaten Earth governments with orbital bombardment? I mean, sure, they'd be bluffing, but how would anybody know?

They can carry it out. In WW2 the instantaneous destruction of two cities broke the most fanatical power. Decimating a few dozen worldwide would certainly not qualify as a major bombardment or be ruled out by the Codex Astartes as Serafina seems to imply. If you want to be bloody minded, blasting every capital on the planet in a matter of minutes and demanding surrender easily fits into a realistic ultramarine interpretation of these rules of engagement.

The Codex Astartes recommends such things. There is a reason Space Marine capships are equipped with bombardment cannons optimised for smashing cities up.

[NecronLord]

Except when they feel like being extra cool. In the novel Eye of Terror, there is a flashback to the immediate post-Heresy days with a battle scene, and in it, the Space Marines take off their helmets to howl defiance at their enemies . . . in space.

Although that might not be standard procedure, given that there are counter-examples, but it does happen.

Those are World Eaters. They are literally protected by magic (much as they despise 'magic'). The point of the scene is them showing off their magic by taking off their helmets and shouting in a vaccuum.

[Serafina]

On an short, unrelated note: 40K-Khorne does not despise magic, he despises sorcery, especially in battle - you are supposed to win by martial skill. But he has nothing against enhancing magic, magic weapons or deamon summonings, as long as he get's a good battle it's fine.

But yes, counting on Space Marines not wearing their helmets is pretty damn stupid, since they generall wear them unless they have a reason to take them off.

[IvanTih]

On an short, unrelated note: 40K-Khorne does not despise magic, he despises sorcery, especially in battle - you are supposed to win by martial skill. But he has nothing against enhancing magic, magic weapons or deamon summonings, as long as he get's a good battle it's fine.

But yes, counting on Space Marines not wearing their helmets is pretty damn stupid, since they generall wear them unless they have a reason to take them off.

I think that those of helmetless marines are just Imperial propaganda to make Marines look even more heroical.
Space Wolves take their helmet off because they have better senses than the auto-senses in the helmet.

[Kuja]

On an short, unrelated note: 40K-Khorne does not despise magic, he despises sorcery, especially in battle - you are supposed to win by martial skill. But he has nothing against enhancing magic, magic weapons or deamon summonings, as long as he get's a good battle it's fine.

But yes, counting on Space Marines not wearing their helmets is pretty damn stupid, since they generall wear them unless they have a reason to take them off.

I think that those of helmetless marines are just Imperial propaganda to make Marines look even more heroical.
Space Wolves take their helmet off because they have better senses than the auto-senses in the helmet.

And even Space Wolves will put their helmets on when it becomes tactically prudent to do so, as we see Ragnar and his buddies doing it throughout the Blackmane series.

[IvanTih]

On an short, unrelated note: 40K-Khorne does not despise magic, he despises sorcery, especially in battle - you are supposed to win by martial skill. But he has nothing against enhancing magic, magic weapons or deamon summonings, as long as he get's a good battle it's fine.

But yes, counting on Space Marines not wearing their helmets is pretty damn stupid, since they generall wear them unless they have a reason to take them off.

I think that those of helmetless marines are just Imperial propaganda to make Marines look even more heroical.
Space Wolves take their helmet off because they have better senses than the auto-senses in the helmet.

And even Space Wolves will put their helmets on when it becomes tactically prudent to do so, as we see Ragnar and his buddies doing it throughout the Blackmane series.

As will all marines,Space Wolves less because of the superior senses.

[white_rabbit]

Darth " I don't pay attention when I read books Hoth"
Except when they feel like being extra cool. In the novel Eye of Terror, there is a flashback to the immediate post-Heresy days with a battle scene, and in it, the Space Marines take off their helmets to howl defiance at their enemies . . . in space.

Although that might not be standard procedure, given that there are counter-examples, but it does happen.

Oh wow, you've literally picked the worst possible example you could have for your snark here.

Eye of Terror
Not only the sergeant appeared to have gone mad. Others were following his example, discarding their helmets to grimace and mouth in hard vacuum. Were it not for the lack of air to carry it, a discordant concerto of harsh battle-screams would have greeted the struggling Dark Angels

Sergeant Maggron's reaction to the World Eaters doing this is that the world eaters fucking nuts, and they'll all be dead soon.

Not only had their recklessness heightened the World Eaters’ berserker rage, it was as though some sorcerous mystical influence protected their exposed heads.

Except they cheat.

The mission starts out going cautiously well; then goes to fucking hell after you lose quite a few NCOs and officers to snipers, and things spiral out of control after that.

This is pretty funny as well, never mind that the Marines are a military force who will move at a pace literally supernatural in WW2, supersonic transports, logistics etc, but they are also packing vastly superior sensors, and their communications and coordination are completely secure, widespread and redundant.

Snipers will get em!

[Darth Hoth]

Oh wow, you've literally picked the worst possible example you could have for your snark here.

Why? The argument was that Space Marines do not take off their helmets in battle. Eye of Terror shows that sometimes, they do. That some chapters are more sensible than others does not remove the evidence for the crazy-ass ones.

Although for the sake of reason, I am willing to accept that most of them are smart enough not to.

By the way, and as a tangent on this discussion, why is the artwork in the rulebooks not considered canon for some reason? Since it is in the books themselves, should it not be higher canon than the licensed novels?

[Serafina]

By the way, and as a tangent on this discussion, why is the artwork in the rulebooks not considered canon for some reason? Since it is in the books themselves, should it not be higher canon than the licensed novels?

Because of the style of many of these artworks. They are drawn like medieval (or the like) portraits of battle - which are not necessarily reliable. The style implies that it's art (in-universe), supposed to be heroic and awesome and stuff - and therefore not accurate.

On the other hand, the novels typically give us character POVs - not absolutely accurate, but not deliberately falsified either - clearly superior to the artwork in regards to accuracy.