A company of Space Marines and World War 2

[Black Admiral]

Oh wow, you've literally picked the worst possible example you could have for your snark here.

Why? The argument was that Space Marines do not take off their helmets in battle. Eye of Terror shows that sometimes, they do. That some chapters are more sensible than others does not remove the evidence for the crazy-ass ones.

You're ignoring the fact that Sgt. Magron believes they've gone insane (and he's probably right, given those Marines being Khornate berserkers of the World Eaters - a Legion not known for restraint even before they declared for Chaos), and 10,000 years before the current 40k timeframe to boot. The only loyalist SMs I can think of who might, semi-regularly, remove their helmets in combat are the Space Wolves, and they have good reasons for doing so.

In short, prove that loyalists - and, more specifically, Ultramarines, they being the relevant ones for those thread - will remove their helmets in battle without good reason to do so.

By the way, and as a tangent on this discussion, why is the artwork in the rulebooks not considered canon for some reason? Since it is in the books themselves, should it not be higher canon than the licensed novels?

Most of it is what could be considered heroic art - "Lord General Arsekicker von Heroic smiting the heretics of Jerkassia VI", to use a hypothetical example, on the lines of this (I am reasonably sure that Washington wasn't standing when he crossed the Delaware, and certain that even if he was, he didn't strike a heroic pose in so doing).

[white_rabbit]

Darth Hoth
Why? The argument was that Space Marines do not take off their helmets in battle. Eye of Terror shows that sometimes, they do. That some chapters are more sensible than others does not remove the evidence for the crazy-ass ones.

The general gist of the discussion doesn't seem to be "they don't ever ever" take their helmets off, people have acknowledged that they do in this thread. I think its pretty clear that the concept of marines, particularly marine officers dying because they won't have their helmets on because "artwork!" is what's being denigrated.

Your example showing that "sometimes, they do" is fucking nonsense in this sort of discussion. The context in which it happened was pure insanity, and it was done by the freaking World Eaters. Chaos worshipping psychopaths who were protected from the repercussions of their actions by magic.

I'm not going to look at the most batshit chaos legion and use their actions as an indicator of literally anything for a loyalist chapter, because the majority of the time, its stupid.

Although for the sake of reason, I am willing to accept that most of them are smart enough not to.

Actually, for the sake of having presented fuck all evidence to contrary, you're going to accept that most marine chapters consider it daft to take your helmet off in combat, that the vast majority of them, even in Chapters like the Space Wolves, with bullshit super-senses, are still depicted mostly with helmets on.

By the way, and as a tangent on this discussion, why is the artwork in the rulebooks not considered canon for some reason? Since it is in the books themselves, should it not be higher canon than the licensed novels?

For a start, I don't think anyone has said that the artwork is not considered canon, its that the generic statement of " but the artwork shows them without helmets on" is considered without particular merit, since it doesn't mention anything specific, so we have no context, and it doesn't acknowledge that some of the artwork is actually artwork in universe..

Effectively, its the same as your daft, vague mention of the World Eaters in Eye of Terror, you aren't quoting or referencing accurately, so why should it be considered seriously ?

I mean, in my opinion, most of the marines you see depicted have got their bonces covered...and their head is probably harder than a WW2 helmet anyway.

As far as the "licensed novels" go. Which novels are those ? I'm not entirely sure of the specifics, but none of GW novels are licensed.

They are published by the publishing arm of Games Workshop PLC, Black Library, which is part of the same group of companies as Games Workshop.

I.e. Your comment about the canonicity of any of them is baseless, since the novels are directly published by Games Workshop.

They've licensed a few comics to Boom Studio's since they pulled their own comic line IIRC, and Fantasy Flight games stuff is licensed, but fuck, its all directly supervised by their IP department.

Anyway, stop talking bollocks.

[PainRack]

I hate to bring this up again, but in DoW 2 novelisation, Captain Thule does not appear to be helmed in all his scenes.

[white_rabbit]

So fucking what ?

Incidentally, for a novel, "doesn't appear to be helmeted" in an interesting statement to make.

He might not appear to be scratching his arse either.

MARINES NEVER SCRATCH THEIR ARSE ?!!!

Go read my previous post gibbering about this , and just kinda sub your name in for Hoth's okay?

[Darth Hoth]

Your example showing that "sometimes, they do" is fucking nonsense in this sort of discussion. The context in which it happened was pure insanity, and it was done by the freaking World Eaters. Chaos worshipping psychopaths who were protected from the repercussions of their actions by magic.

I'm not going to look at the most batshit chaos legion and use their actions as an indicator of literally anything for a loyalist chapter, because the majority of the time, its stupid.

Are the Chaos Legions as of the Heresy not representative for the Space Marines as such? Obviously, ten thousand years of divergent development later they would not necessarily be, but at that time, as well? Just how much did their doctrine change during the war (which did not last for that many years)?

Actually, for the sake of having presented fuck all evidence to contrary, you're going to accept that most marine chapters consider it daft to take your helmet off in combat, that the vast majority of them, even in Chapters like the Space Wolves, with bullshit super-senses, are still depicted mostly with helmets on.

I have not read the Space Wolves books, so I cannot comment on those. But I am willing to accept that the World Eaters in this case would not necessarily be representative for any given chapter (and specifically, not the Ultramarines, to address Black Admiral, also).

it doesn't acknowledge that some of the artwork is actually artwork in universe..

If you will bear with me, what is the evidence for that?

Effectively, its the same as your daft, vague mention of the World Eaters in Eye of Terror, you aren't quoting or referencing accurately, so why should it be considered seriously ?

How was my reference inaccurate? They did take off their helmets, for no other reason I could discern than being "extra cool". Whether this agrees with other books or not has no bearing, here.

As far as the "licensed novels" go. Which novels are those ? I'm not entirely sure of the specifics, but none of GW novels are licensed.

They are published by the publishing arm of Games Workshop PLC, Black Library, which is part of the same group of companies as Games Workshop.

I.e. Your comment about the canonicity of any of them is baseless, since the novels are directly published by Games Workshop.

I was going by what other people have said around here before, namely that the rulebooks (fluff only, not game mechanics) are higher canon than the novels. I assumed that this was correct; as far as I know, Games Workshop does not have a "canon policy" as such. My apologies for using inaccurate terminology; I was not aware that GW owned Black Library.

[Black Admiral]

Your example showing that "sometimes, they do" is fucking nonsense in this sort of discussion. The context in which it happened was pure insanity, and it was done by the freaking World Eaters. Chaos worshipping psychopaths who were protected from the repercussions of their actions by magic.

I'm not going to look at the most batshit chaos legion and use their actions as an indicator of literally anything for a loyalist chapter, because the majority of the time, its stupid.

Are the Chaos Legions as of the Heresy not representative for the Space Marines as such? Obviously, ten thousand years of divergent development later they would not necessarily be, but at that time, as well? Just how much did their doctrine change during the war (which did not last for that many years)?

Why, exactly, should the raving lunatics who are doing things like flaying their enemies and wearing their skin be considered in any way representative of the rest of the Astartes? Seriously.

[Darth Hoth]

Um . . . Plenty of chapters/legions, including loyalist ones, have strange and repulsive personal habits? Like eating raw flesh, drinking human blood . . . ?

[white_rabbit]

Are the Chaos Legions as of the Heresy not representative for the Space Marines as such? Obviously, ten thousand years of divergent development later they would not necessarily be, but at that time, as well? Just how much did their doctrine change during the war (which did not last for that many years)?

The very first thing Maggron does is think " What the shit are these guys doing, they must be fucking bonkers, but oh well, they are all going to die"

Never mind ten thousand years later, a guy right from that time thinks "fuck, these guys are dumb". To highlight how fucking daft this concept of using the World eaters is, Kharn the Betrayer, Arch-fucker up of People with Sharp Things goes from being the reasonable, eloquent and measured Equerry of Angron, to a screaming batshit loon with a chaos star tattooed over his face within the space of a few years.

Battle doctrine didn't always change for the chaos legions, in some cases, like the Death Guard, it actually remained fairly similar, its just that the guys involved were horrific bulks of rotting shit-flesh. What we are talking about isn't "doctrine" its the guys you are trying to use as some sort of talking point for loyalists 10k years later being fucking lunatics who survive vacuum by the power of violence.

Its fucking stupid.

I have not read the Space Wolves books, so I cannot comment on those. But I am willing to accept that the World Eaters in this case would not necessarily be representative for any given chapter (and specifically, not the Ultramarines, to address Black Admiral, also).

I don't give two shits what you are willing to accept, you aren't going to be allowed to argue that they support your point of view in any shape or form without it being illustrated just how daft it is.

If you will bear with me, what is the evidence for that?

First, you've got a bit of cheek talking about evidence, when you've provided shit all, and what you have referenced vaguely didn't support your argument in the slightest.

Secondly, the evidence for that is pictures of shit with stuff like "artists impression of The Arch-Bum raper of Lothern" written underneath it. Examples that come to mind off the cuff are the Slaaneshi Chaos Lord in Tactica Imperialis, who inspired the above comment, a Khornate guy in Sabbat Worlds Campaign book, and Imperial General Russki McIvan dictating orders to his homies from the last IG codex. Oh yeah, and the Death of Slaydo, explicitly an artwork, as it shows the new Warmaster Macaroth there, when he was actually light years distance away

The Eye of Terror campaign book even shows pictures of inspirational leaflets and propaganda as well, that are effectively indistinguishable from actual artwork but for the notes.

Hilariously, some of this artwork is also portrayed as "reality" in different publications, as they reuse it.

How was my reference inaccurate? They did take off their helmets, for no other reason I could discern than being "extra cool". Whether this agrees with other books or not has no bearing, here.

When you take something out of context, and wave it as a banner proving "space marines take their helmets off" something I'll repeat has not been contested, then its not accurately conveying the meaning of the text.

Case in point, your retarded attitude that its supposed to indicate anything about other chapters, when its explicitly described as FUCKING INSANITY, and they'd all die normally because of it.

I was going by what other people have said around here before, namely that the rulebooks (fluff only, not game mechanics) are higher canon than the novels. I assumed that this was correct; as far as I know, Games Workshop does not have a "canon policy" as such. My apologies for using inaccurate terminology; I was not aware that GW owned Black Library.

What the fuck ?

So, you're going off what other people have said, and implying that the images should be just as canon as the rulebooks, which are higher canon that the novels (according to what other people have said.) But you "know" that Games Workshop doesn't have a canon policy.

So why do you give a damn what other people are saying ?

Um . . . Plenty of chapters/legions, including loyalist ones, have strange and repulsive personal habits? Like eating raw flesh, drinking human blood . . . ?

Point to a single one of them that can breath in fucking space.

[Black Admiral]

Um . . . Plenty of chapters/legions, including loyalist ones, have strange and repulsive personal habits? Like eating raw flesh, drinking human blood . . . ?

Quite aside from white_rabbit's entirely correct point, the only Chapter I can think of who actually do that kind of thing outside of very controlled circumstances (like the Mortifactors' rituals) are the Flesh Tearers - y'know, probably the least popular Astartes Chapter extant and the guys under Inquisition investigation for heretical behaviour (oh, and who the Adepta Sororitas want destroyed).

Again - not a very representative example.

[Purple]

There is a difference between eating flesh (If I recall correctly astartes can get some of the meals memories out of eating their fallen enemies) and being psychopaths fueled by blood and rage who live only for the thrill of murder.

I mean honestly, the World Eaters (hell even their name, say it with me: World Eaters) are about as insane as you can get in the universe. Even the orks are more timid.

I don't see how anyone can even remotely argue that anything they say or do can be representative of the general body of Space Marines.

[Darth Hoth]

First, you've got a bit of cheek talking about evidence, when you've provided shit all, and what you have referenced vaguely didn't support your argument in the slightest.

I can of course quote EoT, if you insist, but since you have already done so, would that be necessary?

Secondly, the evidence for that is pictures of shit with stuff like "artists impression of The Arch-Bum raper of Lothern" written underneath it. Examples that come to mind off the cuff are the Slaaneshi Chaos Lord in Tactica Imperialis, who inspired the above comment, a Khornate guy in Sabbat Worlds Campaign book, and Imperial General Russki McIvan dictating orders to his homies from the last IG codex. Oh yeah, and the Death of Slaydo, explicitly an artwork, as it shows the new Warmaster Macaroth there, when he was actually light years distance away

The Eye of Terror campaign book even shows pictures of inspirational leaflets and propaganda as well, that are effectively indistinguishable from actual artwork but for the notes.

Hilariously, some of this artwork is also portrayed as "reality" in different publications, as they reuse it.

So that would constitute evidence that these particular examples are "artists' impressions" while the images without such labels are not . . . or am I missing something?

When you take something out of context, and wave it as a banner proving "space marines take their helmets off" something I'll repeat has not been contested, then its not accurately conveying the meaning of the text.

All right; I may have misunderstood the argument that was being made.

Case in point, your retarded attitude that its supposed to indicate anything about other chapters, when its explicitly described as FUCKING INSANITY, and they'd all die normally because of it.

It was considered insanity by a guy from another legion. So, the example gives one crazy legion and one saner one.

So, you're going off what other people have said, and implying that the images should be just as canon as the rulebooks, which are higher canon that the novels (according to what other people have said.) But you "know" that Games Workshop doesn't have a canon policy.

So why do you give a damn what other people are saying ?

Other people, here and elsewhere on the Internet, have claimed that there is a policy, and that it puts rulebook fluff higher than novels. This is what I am asking about. I have not seen any sign of a GW policy myself, but others claim that there is one.

Point to a single one of them that can breath in fucking space.

That was not my point, here; all I wished to point out was that weird behaviour on the order of flaying skins is not really unique to the Chaos legions.

[Darth Hoth]

Um . . . Plenty of chapters/legions, including loyalist ones, have strange and repulsive personal habits? Like eating raw flesh, drinking human blood . . . ?

Quite aside from white_rabbit's entirely correct point, the only Chapter I can think of who actually do that kind of thing outside of very controlled circumstances (like the Mortifactors' rituals) are the Flesh Tearers - y'know, probably the least popular Astartes Chapter extant and the guys under Inquisition investigation for heretical behaviour (oh, and who the Adepta Sororitas want destroyed).

Again - not a very representative example.

How about Blood Angels, for one, who are famous for vampirism?

[Darth Hoth]

I concede the argument that Space Marines regularly fight helmetless, if I ever made it. My original point was that it is not "just" the artwork that shows this, in contradiction of everything else, but that it does happen. I never intended to argue that they do it as standard.

[white_rabbit]

Um . . . Plenty of chapters/legions, including loyalist ones, have strange and repulsive personal habits? Like eating raw flesh, drinking human blood . . . ?

Quite aside from white_rabbit's entirely correct point, the only Chapter I can think of who actually do that kind of thing outside of very controlled circumstances (like the Mortifactors' rituals) are the Flesh Tearers - y'know, probably the least popular Astartes Chapter extant and the guys under Inquisition investigation for heretical behaviour (oh, and who the Adepta Sororitas want destroyed).

Again - not a very representative example.

How about Blood Angels, for one, who are famous for vampirism?

The Blood Angels are famous for vampirism because of their massive emphasis on blood rituals, and the vast amounts of blood iconography. There are only very specific things that paint the entire legion as a bunch of vampire monsters by association, like Mephiston and the Death company. Even then, its mostly psychotic violence. Incidentally, you'll be hard pressed to find art work of the Death company without helmets.

I concede the argument that Space Marines regularly fight helmetless, if I ever made it. My original point was that it is not "just" the artwork that shows this, in contradiction of everything else, but that it does happen. I never intended to argue that they do it as standard.

You argued that the World Eaters were proof of marines removing their helmets "just to be cool", and this could somehow be stretched to include the generic marines in the OP.

The providence of your reference, your interpretation and ignorance of context have been detailed already for this argument, and its been explained at length why this was stupid.

Don't try and pretend your original point stands pure and clear of your actual words please, its irritating.

[Darth Hoth]

You argued that the World Eaters were proof of marines removing their helmets "just to be cool", and this could somehow be stretched to include the generic marines in the OP.

The providence of your reference, your interpretation and ignorance of context have been detailed already for this argument, and its been explained at length why this was stupid.

Don't try and pretend your original point stands pure and clear of your actual words please, its irritating.

I said that it does happen. I also said that, in light of evidence to the contrary, it is probably not their regular practice.

I fail to see why the World Eaters are not Space Marines. They may not be representative of all of them, but they are proof that they do it sometimes. Like I claimed, in reply to others who appeared to be arguing that they never, ever do it.

[white_rabbit]

I can of course quote EoT, if you insist, but since you have already done so, would that be necessary?

Perhaps you can back up, with evidence, your other claims. Have you done some sort of assessment of artwork percentages etc?

So that would constitute evidence that these particular examples are "artists' impressions" while the images without such labels are not . . . or am I missing something?

I'm pretty sure at this point you are missing a fucking brain. You asked for evidence that some artwork is artwork in universe. I posted my own recollections of books that show this.

All right; I may have misunderstood the argument that was being made.

How you could possibly do this is mind boggling.

It was considered insanity by a guy from another legion. So, the example gives one crazy legion and one saner one.

Listen shit for brains, I'm not about to defend, at length, the concept that anyone fucking sane would consider taking your helmet off in space to be the move of a hopeless lunatic.

Other people, here and elsewhere on the Internet, have claimed that there is a policy, and that it puts rulebook fluff higher than novels. This is what I am asking about. I have not seen any sign of a GW policy myself, but others claim that there is one.

What you are asking appears to change every time you fucking post, and its bastard irritating. Learn to communicate with some sort of bloody coherency.

Or stop twatting around and being dishonest, either works for me.

That was not my point, here; all I wished to point out was that weird behaviour on the order of flaying skins is not really unique to the Chaos legions.

All I wished to point out was that regardless of how dodgy they are, loyalist chapters can't take their fucking helmets off in space and survive by magic. This goes beyond weird, into outright lunacy.

I said that it does happen. I also said that, in light of evidence to the contrary, it is probably not their regular practice.

reiterating your backpedalling doesn't change the facts of your posts.

I fail to see why the World Eaters are not Space Marines. They may not be representative of all of them, but they are proof that they do it sometimes. Like I claimed, in reply to others who appeared to be arguing that they never, ever do it.

Who is fucking claiming they are space marines ?

Who argued they never ever do it ?

Fuck off retard.