USS Sulaco matchups

[Srelex]

From what I can tell, detailed insights regarding the USS Sulaco were published in the Colonial Marines Technical Manual--so I'm curious as to what sort of vs matchups with other scifi starships would work for it. For some reason I was thinking of the NX Enterprise, although I may be wrong. Any thoughts?

[Stofsk]

Trek ships can jump to warp at will. It would be difficult if not impossible for the Sulaco to do anything to it. Trek ships can also attack objects at warp when their target isn't ('Journey to Babel' and 'Elaan of Troyius' to name two immediate examples although I might be remembering the former wrong, I'd need to rewatch it; the latter had a Klingon D7 attack the Enterprise which had sabotaged engines). Without knowing anything about the Sulaco's anti-ship capabilities (the movie gives the impression it's a upgunned marine bus and I've not read the book you described) I'm inclined to give it to Trek.

[adam_grif]

Aliens does have FTL, but it's not clear how it works or how effective it is. IIRC the Sulaco has a big rail-gun on top, but if you can post the details from said tech manual OP, that would be appreciated. I don't get the impression it has shields or anything like that.

[hongi]

There's info in this previous thread. It's damn impressive too, in a semi-realistic way. Sans the FTL of course.

I don't think DPDarkPrimus will mind if I quote his post:

General facts:
The USS Sulaco is a Conestoga class starship. It's over 385 meters in length and weighs in at roughly 78,000 metric tons.

Power and engines:
The fusion reactor has a maximum generating output of 3.6 Terawatts. For sublight thrust and maneuvers, it uses four Gates-Heidmann GF-240 rocket motor, powered directly by the fusion drive. Each engine can generate thrusts in excess of 35,100 metric tons, although running at maximum can only be sustained for short periods due to massive fuel consumption- usually the engines run at a fraction of the maximum. The Sulaco's hyperdrive can sustain a high crusing speed of 0.74 light years per sidereal day.

Stealth charactaristics:
Hull panels made of radar absorbent material serve to reduce the radar cross section of the vessel to less than 10 m^2 from the forward aspect and 260 m^2 from abeam. Engine outlets have infrared supressors to disguaise the engine flare, while a cooling tower beneath the hull reduces the ship's infrared signature. Hull coatings are laser absorbent to reduce lidar reflection, while the over all color scheme is a dark 'battleship' grey to minimize the ship's albedo.

Main armament:
Eight XIM-28A Long Lance ASAT missles in the dorsal launch bay. The XIM-28A is a 5.6 m Anti-Satellite Missle powered by a two-stage solid-rocket booster. The warhead consists of a forged-fragment ring, fused to expode such that it creates a lethal cloud of penetrating fragments.

Secondary armament:
A pair of 800 MeV turboalternator powered Neutral Particle Beam weapons, firing into the starship's forward 'cone', each capable of disabling a target's electronics and instrumentation at ranges up to 100,000 km. Sufficient deuterium tanking exists for up to 230 seconds of firing.

Short range armament consists of a dorsal and ventral turrent, each mounting twin railgun launchers that fire kinetic ammunition at velocities over 12 km per second. Despite the high ROF, these weapons are less accurate than beam weapons against maneuvering starships or missles, and have a practical engagment range of less than 100 km. However, a single hit from a railgun round is capable of causing catastrophic damage to a space target. The railgun works by accelerating a charged plasma to high velocities and using it to propel a kinetic round at the target. They fire up to 30 rpm each and are fed from an autoloader. Common ammunition loads include alternating KPI and KCP rounds. KCP (Kinetic Core Penetrating) rounds mass 220 grams each and are composed of steel-sheathed tungsten. KCP rounds that hit their target punch strait through the ships hull, breaching every airtight compartment until they exit or come to rest and leaving a wake of secondary damage from hypersonic shockwaves and superheating in the pressurised areas. KPI (Kinetic Penetrating Incediary) mass 202 g each and are composed of tungsted capped plastic composites. They are designed to penetrate the pressure hull, vaporizing after impact into a directed plasma hot enough to ignite the very structure of the ship. In addition, they create a blast overpressure capable of blowing out several sections of the ship.

Point defenses:
Port and starboard laser turrets. These mount 80 mW free-electron laser capable of vaporising small targets such as railgun rounds, or disabling incoming missles and fighters at ranges up to 20 km. A central dispenser can deliver 60 orbital fragmentation mines for kinetic kills against low-orbiting spacecraft, while an aft bay is equipped to launch up to twenty decoy ballutes and two maneuvering decoy drones against incoming enemy spacecraft.

A main magazine forward of the shuttle launch bay stores the orbital bombardment ordance. The Sulaco carries 80 free-fall guided re-entry vehicles (RVs) capable of carrying a variety of warheads from bunker-busting kinetic penetrators to high explosive and nuclear, as well as decoys.

This armament, though light, is formidable enough to give the Conestogas a large degree of autonomy when operating far from a fleet or taskforce.

[Srelex]

That was the information I was referring to, thanks. What other scifi universes does that match or exceed? Based on that, I'd hazard a guess that the Sulaco could match or exceed the neo-Galactica, as the latter doesn't seem to have firepower above the megaton range, IIRC.

[Shroom Man 777]

Just eight space missiles? Fucking pathetic. Also, how can such a huge spacecraft, apparently as huge as an aircraft carrier (300+ meters) come with just two dropships and a puny contingent of Marines? At best, I'd say that the Sulaco's class would probably be a space frigate or something, certainly not a state of the art asskicking warship or anything someone might thing. Cause if the thing was a state-of-the-badass art ultimate badass warship then, well, in the movie it probably would've had sonic electronic ballbreakers and a whole contingent of Marines rather than just a bunch of guys I could count with my fingers and toes composing everyone on board.

Did the ship even have a crew aside from the Marines on board, and Bishop, Ripley and Burke? What the hell?

[Srelex]

What's wrong with the thing being heavily automated? Space travel ain't like dusting crops, boy.

[Aaron]

Most of it's probably engine and power stuff. Remember how small the crew portions and shuttle were on the Nostromo compared to the rest of the ship?

But yeah, it's just a transport.

[Nephtys]

That was the information I was referring to, thanks. What other scifi universes does that match or exceed? Based on that, I'd hazard a guess that the Sulaco could match or exceed the neo-Galactica, as the latter doesn't seem to have firepower above the megaton range, IIRC.

Not really. Sulaco seems to be reasonably 'hard' as far as it's capabilities go, such as using softkill energy weapons, and a more reasonable powerplant. Pretty much the only thing there that's not too soft is the FTL drive. Seriously though, 8 missiles that are 5.6 meters long for it's primary anti-ship weapon? That's... really rather pathetic. That dropship hangar in the movie could stack thousands of them.

nBSG vessels can regularly push c-fractional speeds ('crossing a system in 7 hours in the pilot'), and have materials and hardening strong enough to survive contact nuke hits.

[Shroom Man 777]

What's wrong with the thing being heavily automated? Space travel ain't like dusting crops, boy.

Still, that's kind of stupid. Robots commanding the ship, nobody else to man the ship (unless the Marines double as tail gunners ), and doing everything without human supervision or maintenance, far away from Earth and far away from anyone who can do any maintenance if anything happens? If they're that advanced, why the hell do they even bother sending meatbag Marines when they could just automate their infantry as well?

Most of it's probably engine and power stuff. Remember how small the crew portions and shuttle were on the Nostromo compared to the rest of the ship?

But yeah, it's just a transport.

But this is weird. I mean, yeah, sure, I can get how the crew of the Nostromo was so small. I can also get it if the Sulaco had a handful of sailors as crew, that would be a bit sensible. But do we even see a crew at all on the Sulaco? And using a 300+ meter huge-ass ship to transport a small bunch of grunts to some crappy moon?

It would make sense if in the future, in that 'verse, 300+ meter warships would be their equivalent of a C-130 or a PT boat or something. Yeah. But man. Kinda underwhelming.

[Srelex]

Still, that's kind of stupid. Robots commanding the ship, nobody else to man the ship (unless the Marines double as tail gunners ), and doing everything without human supervision or maintenance, far away from Earth and far away from anyone who can do any maintenance if anything happens? If they're that advanced, why the hell do they even bother sending meatbag Marines when they could just automate their infantry as well?

For what it's worth, android infantry is seen in the AVP games and a few of the comics, and are mentioned as being 'illegal', I think.

[Aaron]

Those are anti-satellite missiles. Seems pretty clear that the class she belongs to is just intended to shuttle marines around to colonies in trouble and maybe assist in putting down rebellions.

But this is weird. I mean, yeah, sure, I can get how the crew of the Nostromo was so small. I can also get it if the Sulaco had a handful of sailors as crew, that would be a bit sensible. But do we even see a crew at all on the Sulaco? And using a 300+ meter huge-ass ship to transport a small bunch of grunts to some crappy moon?

It would make sense if in the future, in that 'verse, 300+ meter warships would be their equivalent of a C-130 or a PT boat or something. Yeah. But man. Kinda underwhelming.

Apparently she had no crew, maybe the company engineered a way to have them absent for the trip. Kind of like how there was a green Lt.

Anyways, I actually find her specs refreshing. I enjoy the hard-esque attempt, and I'm pretty sick of super-powerful settings honestly.

[Black Admiral]

Also, how can such a huge spacecraft, apparently as huge as an aircraft carrier (300+ meters) come with just two dropships and a puny contingent of Marines?

In its normal configuration, the Sulaco's class can carry 90 passengers & crew, with provision for 2,000 more in troop transport configuration (Tech Manual, pg. 118)

At best, I'd say that the Sulaco's class would probably be a space frigate or something, certainly not a state of the art asskicking warship or anything someone might thing. Cause if the thing was a state-of-the-badass art ultimate badass warship then, well, in the movie it probably would've had sonic electronic ballbreakers and a whole contingent of Marines rather than just a bunch of guys I could count with my fingers and toes composing everyone on board.

Did the ship even have a crew aside from the Marines on board, and Bishop, Ripley and Burke? What the hell?

No, it didn't. The reasoning (in-universe) being that the Marine unit in Aliens was a single section with the job of investigating why a small colony went off the air. I can't really see anything in that job that requires a regimental combat team (remember, Hadley's Hope only had about 160 people, and it;'s implied the Marines do this sort of thing a lot).

[Shroom Man 777]

Anyways, I actually find her specs refreshing. I enjoy the hard-esque attempt, and I'm pretty sick of super-powerful settings honestly.

I find it too super-minimalist though. I'm not the one to wank about shitty weapons yields, power levels really don't matter shit unless you're some kind of juvenile dick-measuring inadequate whatever, but still. Just eight ASAT missiles? What? Man. But if it's just a transport ship, one capable of self-defense and space-police patrols, eh, okay. Space MEKOs? Still, a transport ship just carrying a couple handful of guys? Aw man.

No, it didn't. The reasoning (in-universe) being that the Marine unit in Aliens was a single section with the job of investigating why a small colony went off the air. I can't really see anything in that job that requires a regimental combat team (remember, Hadley's Hope only had about 160 people, and it;'s implied the Marines do this sort of thing a lot).

Doesn't have to be a shitload of men. Just, say, a couple dozen or a bit more.

I mean, what if one of the Marines got shot? You'd need two Marines to transport him, and a medic (or one of the soldiers can be a corpsman?) to stabilize him. The Marine squad in the movie were 8 grunts (plus New, Bishop, Burke, Dropship Pilot Girl, Dropship Crew Chief and Ripley, the total of these guys is fourteen). If one guy got injured and you need a couple of guys to bring him back, that's an 8-man squad missing 3 people. Your squad's manpower would be effectively halved! Shit, man, you can't even clear an entire building with just five guys? That sucks. Sure, if the Marines were invincible Starship Troopers with Powered Armor or state-of-the-badass ultimate badass shit, an 8-man squad of uber-badasses would be awesome. But an 8-man squad with Space Vietnam equipment? They can't even cover a city block with that.



Kendall, you're a military mang, I'm sure this also strikes you as ridiculous. Seeing as the Marines in Aliens didn't have anything that much advanced over the equipment of the Canadian Army, what do you think you could do with 8 military mangs? Imagine, you and 7 other military mangs get loaded up into a Canadian Colonial Army spaceship (the size of an aircraft carrier) and get sent to a space mission. What could you accomplish with 8 guys, a dropship, a space Humvee, and some Space Vietnam-era wargear?

(Assuming your mission wasn't super-fucked by a bunch of corporate stooges or whatever)

[Aaron]

Kendall, you're a military mang, I'm sure this also strikes you as ridiculous. Seeing as the Marines in Aliens didn't have anything that much advanced over the equipment of the Canadian Army, what do you think you could do with 8 military mangs? Imagine, you and 7 other military mangs get loaded up into a Canadian Colonial Army spaceship (the size of an aircraft carrier) and get sent to a space mission. What could you accomplish with 8 guys, a dropship, a space Humvee, and some Space Vietnam-era wargear?

(Assuming your mission wasn't super-fucked by a bunch of corporate stooges or whatever)

Fill up the shitter.

[MKSheppard]

Just eight space missiles? Fucking pathetic. Also, how can such a huge spacecraft, apparently as huge as an aircraft carrier (300+ meters) come with just two dropships and a puny contingent of Marines? At best, I'd say that the Sulaco's class would probably be a space frigate or something, certainly not a state of the art asskicking warship or anything someone might thing

I own that book. In fact, it was one of my first purchases from Amazon back when Amazon was new (1999/2000) and this whole e-commerce thing was new.

One of the reasons the Aliens: CMTM is so seemingly realistic is because:

A.) Cameron's initial graphic approach for the movie was remarkably minimalist, aimed towards things that worked or appeared to work, rather than fancy bling.

B.) The author, Lee Brimmicombe-Wood; has designed several wargames, and designed several flight sims for the PC. So he at least knows how to make something that seems real.

Ok. Lets go flip through the stuff that DPDarkPrimus missed:

"It is intended that the Sulaco should remain in service for another five years before being decommissioned and sent to join her older sisters in commercial service."

The Conestogas design began to be built 20 years before the events of ALIENS and were built originally as troop and logistics transports with a limited self defense suite; but have evolved over the years into a semi light assault ship.

The reason why the freezers are used; is because the FTL method they use causes time EXPANSION. The faster you go in FTL, the faster time on board the ship goes. So they freeze people to prevent excessive aging.

They have enough capsules on board for 90 crew/passengers; though in an emergency, you can install 2,000 more in the cargo hangars for mass troop transport.

In addition to everything DPDP quoted, the Conestogas have 60 orbital fragmentation mines to seal off a planetary orbit.

[Junghalli]

Also, how can such a huge spacecraft, apparently as huge as an aircraft carrier (300+ meters) come with just two dropships and a puny contingent of Marines?

Maybe it's like real life spacecraft and is basically just a flying fuel tank?

[DPDarkPrimus]

I don't have my Technical Manual on hand at the moment, but I distinctly recall that space battles were very much a "he who sights first, wins" scenario, where the ship that found the enemy vessel and fired their cannons at them first would almost assuredly be victorious, because the weapons aren't intended to leave a ship capable of being able to return fire. The Sulaco really isn't intended for ship-to-ship combat, hence it lacks the really heavy stuff like the longer-distance railguns.

[Stark]

The book suggests Sulaco packs a pretty heavy RV armament for bombardment; she's not supposed to fight other spaceships. I'd probably handwave the missiles into reloadable tubes, though; she can lay a denser minefield than that. What would the point of more dropships have been with so few marines? Indeed, more crew would have made it harder to keep quiet.

And outside ship-to-ship combat, and ESPECIALLY on this mission, Sulaco didn't need to do ANYTHING. It's a taxi. Sure, they could have bought another robot and left it up there, but they couldn't use any orbital weapons on the colony anyway. Nostromo didn't really have a crew either; the jumps were totally automated, FTL was automated, etc. The crew were caretakers and legal liability holders.

[MKSheppard]

The only real issue I have with Aliens regarding plotholes is the fact that they simply didn't have a small caretaker crew of one or two people on the Sulaco to keep watch over the ship systems -- they simply sent EVERYONE down to the planetary surface at once.

[Stark]

Why do they need a caretaker crew when the ship has been working fine for decades of lifetime? It maintained a powered orbit, and ... that's it. They were sent in to steal some shit and go home; the -real- plothole is that the company wanted to profit by the alien lifeform but didn't believe it was dangerous.

[adam_grif]

Just eight space missiles? Fucking pathetic. Also, how can such a huge spacecraft, apparently as huge as an aircraft carrier (300+ meters) come with just two dropships and a puny contingent of Marines? At best, I'd say that the Sulaco's class would probably be a space frigate or something, certainly not a state of the art asskicking warship or anything someone might thing. Cause if the thing was a state-of-the-badass art ultimate badass warship then, well, in the movie it probably would've had sonic electronic ballbreakers and a whole contingent of Marines rather than just a bunch of guys I could count with my fingers and toes composing everyone on board.

Did the ship even have a crew aside from the Marines on board, and Bishop, Ripley and Burke? What the hell?

Aliens isn't set in SWverse, so packing six quadrillion kips of Delta V into a drive the size of baseball isn't possible. The majority of the ship is probably engine and fuel. Large, empty spaces might be there for any number of reasons, like not wanting to cram the crew compartment right next to the nuclear reactor.

And it might have had more crew, but we didn't see them. It's not like managing a spaceship is beyond the capability of automated systems, especially when we've got human+ level A.I. in-universe.

[Stofsk]

The only real issue I have with Aliens regarding plotholes is the fact that they simply didn't have a small caretaker crew of one or two people on the Sulaco to keep watch over the ship systems -- they simply sent EVERYONE down to the planetary surface at once.

Eh. That's not that bad. What's really puzzling is why they didn't make a bee line straight for the colony's satellite uplink tower to call the second drop ship down from the Sulaco via remote. I can buy the Sulaco being crew less, if it's part of the plot or enables the plot to work, but the fact is they were preparing to hunker down and stay entrenched in the colony centre for seventeen days when they could have been off the planet in a few hours. It was only because the plot device forced them to act that they even thought of the tower at all, when it should have been the first thing they thought of.

[Srelex]

Perhaps the tower wasn't convenient to get to at that time? Besides, they were all panicked and shaken. People aren't always perfectly logical analytical machines, especially in FUBARed situations like that.

[Aaron]

Don't most of our RL spaceship use automation extensively? The shuttle, Apollo, Gemini, Mercury, Soyuz?

I can certainly picture in the future (if we ever get past this stage) that ships could be totally automated. I mean we have aircraft that an land and take off by themselves apparently right now.