Admiral Ackbar: Competent or Not?

[LopEaredGaloot]

Havok,

Jesus christ.
They are acting on intelligence that they believe to be accurate.

Military intelligence is not a contradiction in terms. 'Central' Intelligence is. Why?

Because there are three basic rules to intel:

Confirmation (Confirmation, Confirmation)
Timeliness
Exploitability

If you are working off ONE asset then that asset is in fact a liability because you have _no way_ to vet his accuracy or honesty 'except as the enemy chooses to prove it'. And if the moment they choose to reveal that agents double status (as a turned or always-enemy condition) happens to be a battle, you're screwed.

OTOH, if you have ten people in the organization, none of them know each other and they can see INTENT as a trail of evidence that is both documentary and presence based (right assets, right time, right orders) for it to be plausible. Then the bad guys have to be able to 'fake' an entire headquarters/logistics system which is far harder to do, convincingly.

And if it's being done _in theater_, where the military is the dominant force exponent as insertion/recovery/comms agency, then timeliness is not such a big issue.

Exploitability gets to be a bitch when there is ONLY ONE PERSON who 'could've known' about a ops detail that is compromised. The CIA won't let you use that knowledge (half the time, they won't even tell so you can do a 'work around' with other capabilities gaining the intel) if it gets their guy killed becaue it may be another 10-20 year process of 'is he for real?' finding and grooming a replacement.

OTOH, if shit happens and it all blows up in your operators face because he sent a critical piece of intel and -they caught him- because it was (gasp) a context specific bait piece designed to expose whoever was leaking, the military can be _right there_ with a recovery team to bail his sorry ass out.

Which tends to make junior more heroic. And to reinforce the idea that his bit of the puzzle is or is not itself a major piece of disinformation, given, again, someone else sees the exposure op being set up.

Elements of this, along with publically humiliating the Commander In Chief during wartime by stating that 'Iran has no nuclear weapons project' is why the CIA is no longer in charge of prosecuting terrorist threat intel, the military commands now run it directly.

It is also why the military have an automatic institutional bias against any spooks not their own.

Ackbar is basing his decision to keep the fleet engaged on the reputation of a general that is famous/infamous for coming through at the last minute... REPEATEDLY.

Doing something 2-3 times for one individual in say 5 years is not going to get you famous or notorious. It's likely sub-par for the conditions that they are all operating under.

Added to which, Solo got captured at the end of TESB and has spent a year in a coma. That right there should disqualify him for any combat service in a mission critical role.

Furthermore, as of TESB Solo is not even acting within the Rebel command structure. He is 'Captain' Solo merely because he is a ship owner/operator. And after TESB, he's hybernating.

Finally, Ackbar doesn't get to conveniently excuse ignoring his own higher responsibilities based on "Well, I trusted this one guy..." as an excuse.

Inability to keep a broader perspective is NOT what gets you the funny cross-wise hat in the navy.

Having multiple backups to backups to alternatively redundant go-nogo decision points is.

You are a warrior, yes. But you are also an asset-as-risk management specialist. And you have been given the command of the ENTIRE Rebel naval force on the premise of not throwing it away on the notion of ONE GUY being able to accomplish a mission impossible.

'Which you know nothing about'.

The Rebel fleet has the might to stand up to the Imperial forces, as long as they don't have to deal with the DSII's super laser, which they nullified by moving in to the Imperial fleet's perimeter.

Rubbish. The Rebels in the film jump with all of about 12 ships. Only two of which (shown) were Mon Calamari MC-80/80A pickle cruisers of the size of Home 1.

NEITHER of those was itself an original military design but a converted liner. BOTH of which together could not face up to the SSD.

Indeed, the MC80s were not equal to a basic ISD.

>
According to Expanded Universe material, the peaceful Mon Calamari converted their passenger liners into warships to support the rebellion against the Galactic Empire.[1] Expanded Universe texts state that the ships are crewed almost entirely by Mon Calamari due to the ships' Mon Calamari-oriented controls and interface.[1] The primary opponent of Mon Calamari cruisers are the Imperial Star Destroyers. Although Mon Calamari cruisers are roughly the same size as most Imperial Destroyers, in head-to-head engagements the Mon Calamari cruisers are **usually at a disadvantage, due to their thinner armor**. Even so, Mon Calamari cruisers are still a formidable threat to the Imperial fleet; their large numbers of fighter squadrons, modular weapons systems and overlapping shields make them ideal for **hit-and-run attacks** on Imperial ships, bases, and military outposts.
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_One

All the other Frigates and Corvettes shown in the film would not be be able to stand in a slugging match with a single ISD, even as a group.

And there at roughly 15 or so of these ISDs visible, spaced out in a wall formation, while the Wookie page states there were at least 30.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

ANY ONE OF WHICH is a match for the best Mon Calamari ships.

Given the force disparities and the lack of decent intel, the entire premise of the attack is getting in with the shield generator already down and attacking a defenseless DSII just long enough to cripple or destroy it before leaving again.

Ackbar's battlegroup is essentially an overmuscled raiding force.

Nowhere is there intent or displayed capability to take on the entire Imperial Fleet.

CONCLUSION:
You don't have to like what I say. But you have to acknowledge one fact: sending in a single recce asset to take a premission snapshot of the wrecked shield generator and pick up a commo squirt confirming the attack is not something that should be that difficult for a 'genius commander' to think up and execute. As a function of managing risk before committing his entire force.

There is simply too much riding on too few shoulders not to take that most basic of precautions.


LEG

[Havok]

And yet they blew up the SSD. Along with many other SDs. Oops.

And are you seriously this fucking retarded? OMG they didn't show the commandos getting dressed?! HOW DID THEY GET THEIR CLOTHES ON?!?!?

You do realize, moron, that there are things that can happen off screen/away from your vision, that still happen.

And it is amazing that you bring into account EU sources, yet say nothing about the actual ROTJ novelization which indicates far more than just '12 ships'.

You're a fucking idiot.

[Patroklos]

The Rebel fleet has the might to stand up to the Imperial forces, as long as they don't have to deal with the DSII's super laser, which they nullified by moving in to the Imperial fleet's perimeter.

This is utterly false. Ackbar out right says that the fleet "won't last long against those Star Destroyers." Lando agrees with him (since you seem to put a lot of weight on three year career spot promoted Rebel flag officers). The only reason Ackbar makes that decision is because after making the decision to stay in the fight the relative to each other the ISD fleet is less of a threat. Combined with the calculated risk that the DS wouldn't fire amongst friendly ships, and that they had already noted that the Imperial fleet wasn't engaging for whatever reason, it becomes an even better decision, but only a good one in light of the previous bad decision to stay in the first place.

It is quite clear that Ackbar regards his fleet as vastly inferior to the Imperia fleet and that they do hot have "the might to stand up to the Imperial forces" or anything even close.

[DudeGuyMan]

I'll just say again since it I've said it elsewhere lately: Given the level of technology available to the Rebels, there was no good reason for the battle over the shield generator to consist of anything but a few man-portable missile launches followed by mushroom clouds.

You are assuming the bunker couldn't stand up to that.

Screw the bunker, all you need to do is blow the giant dish projecting the shield. Turn the whole area into a crater with a couple of nukes (or equivalent) and the Death Star will be smithereens before anyone in the bunker digs themselves out.

Hell given their technology, the battle should have consisted of them opening the door on their cargo shuttle, opening crate after crate of near-sentient self-propelled levitating proton warheads, and telling them "Okay guys go blow the base up!" or something like that.

[Darth Yan]

wait a second how many ships do we see at endor? cause if the eu's right it was a hell of a lot more then 12. Does LEG know jack about military strategy?

[Srelex]

Screw the bunker, all you need to do is blow the giant dish projecting the shield. Turn the whole area into a crater with a couple of nukes (or equivalent) and the Death Star will be smithereens before anyone in the bunker digs themselves out.

Hell given their technology, the battle should have consisted of them opening the door on their cargo shuttle, opening crate after crate of near-sentient self-propelled levitating proton warheads, and telling them "Okay guys go blow the base up!" or something like that.

Perhaps the shield also covered the dish? Or perhaps the dish was shielded itself? Hell, given the planet's status as a reserve or something, perhaps the rebels were simply worried about causing too much harm to the environment or something.

[Havok]

The Rebel fleet has the might to stand up to the Imperial forces, as long as they don't have to deal with the DSII's super laser, which they nullified by moving in to the Imperial fleet's perimeter.

This is utterly false. Ackbar out right says that the fleet "won't last long against those Star Destroyers." Lando agrees with him (since you seem to put a lot of weight on three year career spot promoted Rebel flag officers). The only reason Ackbar makes that decision is because after making the decision to stay in the fight the relative to each other the ISD fleet is less of a threat. Combined with the calculated risk that the DS wouldn't fire amongst friendly ships, and that they had already noted that the Imperial fleet wasn't engaging for whatever reason, it becomes an even better decision, but only a good one in light of the previous bad decision to stay in the first place.

It is quite clear that Ackbar regards his fleet as vastly inferior to the Imperia fleet and that they do hot have "the might to stand up to the Imperial forces" or anything even close.

And yet they blew up the SSD. Along with many other SDs. Oops.

Turns out people in universe are just as susceptible to misinformation and propaganda as in real life.
Clearly, the Rebel fleet was at least an adequate counter force to the Imperial fleet if not their betters. I don't remember what the novel says, but in the film, the only kills scored on Alliance cap ships, aside from by the DS's superlaser were... none.

[Havok]

I'll just say again since it I've said it elsewhere lately: Given the level of technology available to the Rebels, there was no good reason for the battle over the shield generator to consist of anything but a few man-portable missile launches followed by mushroom clouds.

You are assuming the bunker couldn't stand up to that.

Screw the bunker, all you need to do is blow the giant dish projecting the shield. Turn the whole area into a crater with a couple of nukes (or equivalent) and the Death Star will be smithereens before anyone in the bunker digs themselves out.

Hell given their technology, the battle should have consisted of them opening the door on their cargo shuttle, opening crate after crate of near-sentient self-propelled levitating proton warheads, and telling them "Okay guys go blow the base up!" or something like that.

So what is the logical conclusion of them not doing this? Oh that's right. They don't exist.

[Havok]

wait a second how many ships do we see at endor? cause if the eu's right it was a hell of a lot more then 12. Does LEG know jack about military strategy?

It's pretty well known that I hate the EU, but if this douche is going to bring it into account, then ignore the most important 'EU' source, as I said before, it says a lot about the level of thought he put into this, outside of just trying to be clever.

[Patroklos]

The Rebel fleet has the might to stand up to the Imperial forces, as long as they don't have to deal with the DSII's super laser, which they nullified by moving in to the Imperial fleet's perimeter.

This is utterly false. Ackbar out right says that the fleet "won't last long against those Star Destroyers." Lando agrees with him (since you seem to put a lot of weight on three year career spot promoted Rebel flag officers). The only reason Ackbar makes that decision is because after making the decision to stay in the fight the relative to each other the ISD fleet is less of a threat. Combined with the calculated risk that the DS wouldn't fire amongst friendly ships, and that they had already noted that the Imperial fleet wasn't engaging for whatever reason, it becomes an even better decision, but only a good one in light of the previous bad decision to stay in the first place.

It is quite clear that Ackbar regards his fleet as vastly inferior to the Imperia fleet and that they do hot have "the might to stand up to the Imperial forces" or anything even close.

And yet they blew up the SSD. Along with many other SDs. Oops.

Turns out people in universe are just as susceptible to misinformation and propaganda as in real life.
Clearly, the Rebel fleet was at least an adequate counter force to the Imperial fleet if not their betters. I don't remember what the novel says, but in the film, the only kills scored on Alliance cap ships, aside from by the DS's superlaser were... none.

And in the films the Imperial fleet never engages the Rebels, as ordered by the Emperor. They to out of their way to make it crystal clear that the Imperial fleet was holding back. Unless you want to point out the many frames of SDs where we seem them unleashing their main dorsal batteries?

[Havok]

Don't be an idiot. When the Rebels close to within meters of the Imperial fleet, they are not just sitting there taking fire and returning none. The Emperor's surprise had already been shown and there is not reason at all to think the the Imperial fleet just sat there still holding fire as their ships were being attacked.

But just to illustrate... "Intensify the forward batteries"... intensify, not 'hey we better start shooting now'.

Go to 4:42. Oops.

[Knife]

And the repeated scenes of Imperial ships trading fire with Rebel ships. The frigate in close on the trench line of the SSD, a bog standard SD trading broadsides with a MC 80 winged version. Once the Rebels came up close and started shooting, the Imperials engaged too. If anything, it was their job to not let them get away, so trading fire with them to stop them seems prudent.

In the novel, Ackbar suggests that they don't know the tactics of in close fighting when he says they won't last long against those SD's, perhaps he's more worried about losing maneuverability as a fleet and not a straight up firepower disadvantage.

[Havok]

My edit beat your post.

[The Romulan Republic]

And yet they blew up the SSD. Along with many other SDs. Oops.

Turns out people in universe are just as susceptible to misinformation and propaganda as in real life.
Clearly, the Rebel fleet was at least an adequate counter force to the Imperial fleet if not their betters. I don't remember what the novel says, but in the film, the only kills scored on Alliance cap ships, aside from by the DS's superlaser were... none.

In the novel, its made clear that both sides are taking heavy losses. The destruction of multiple rebel ships in battle with Star Destroyers is described in some detail, as I recall.

As the novels are canon unless overruled by the films, and the encounters described could easily have taken place off-screen...

[NecronLord]

Sullustian Co-pilot: *Alien giberish*

Just as it's interesting trivia, that's not gibberish. It's a fully developed language more complete and articulate than any other 'alien language.'

Mostly because it's actually a real language. Two in fact, he speaks both Haya and Kikuyu, Kenyan languages. It was much appreciated in Kenya, although English is one of the main languages. They are apparently actual lines.

[Srelex]

Wasn't one of the lines 'A herd of elephants is stomping on my feet' in Kenyan?

[NecronLord]

Wasn't one of the lines 'A herd of elephants is stomping on my feet' in Kenyan?

Hell if I know. I didn't say they were meaningful. Just actual lines.

Presumably that's a common saying for 'we're up shit creek without a paddle' on Sullust.

[NecronLord]

Anyone questioning Lando's military record should probably look up the Battle of ThonBaka, in which he lead a group of sentient spaceship-like aliens in resisting an Imperial Force with 500+ cruisers including multiple Star Dreadnoughts. While he loses (until the Silentium, superior-technology droid ships, show up by the hundreds of thousands and smack the Imperials down hard), his forces are heavily outgunned and still manage to destroy 11% of the Imperial Fleet. This is a hell of a lot of Imperial ships. More than at Endor. (The numbers here suggest that L Neil Smith has a decent sense of scale as such it's huge by EU standards)

There's no reason to doubt that Lando has prior experience of leading in large battles.

[Havok]

And yet they blew up the SSD. Along with many other SDs. Oops.

Turns out people in universe are just as susceptible to misinformation and propaganda as in real life.
Clearly, the Rebel fleet was at least an adequate counter force to the Imperial fleet if not their betters. I don't remember what the novel says, but in the film, the only kills scored on Alliance cap ships, aside from by the DS's superlaser were... none.

In the novel, its made clear that both sides are taking heavy losses. The destruction of multiple rebel ships in battle with Star Destroyers is described in some detail, as I recall.

As the novels are canon unless overruled by the films, and the encounters described could easily have taken place off-screen...

So like I said, 'the Rebel fleet was at least an adequate counter force to the Imperial fleet', certainly not "vastly inferior to the Imperia fleet and that they do hot have "the might to stand up to the Imperial forces" or anything even close." as Patroklos and LopEaredMilwanker contend.

[Aaron]

Knife, I think it was has posted screencaps before from Luke looking out the throne room window. There are a bunch of Mon Cal cruisers, that aren't in the initial jump scene and arrival. IIRC the count was around 12-15 cruisers of various types.

[Knife]

Indeed, a personal project of mine, Rogue 9 too I think, where the actual fleet count at Endor is a lot higher than usually though. It should also be noted that at least two Star Cruisers were present, if not three, along with Destroyer escorts. If the Home One flotilla is standard, and three Cruisers are present, then you'll have at minimum 9 Destroyer level ships along with them. Other scenes show considerably more Calamari type vessels, notably in the engagment of the Executor with a Star Cruiser on each side and Home One trailing four or more (more because some of the models are hard to distinguish between the cargo transports and MC ships).

This is just MC ships, not all the assorted smaller ships like frigates and corvettes etc...

[The Romulan Republic]

Regarding the number of ships, Knife, has anyone here ever tried to do a count of the support ships? I think I once counted seven possible or confirmed Nebulon B Frigates in one shot (I think it was off the back of an old video tape box of all things).

For smaller ships, I've been going through the video clip Havok posted. At six seconds or so in, as the Falcon flies past a big Mon Cal. ship, you can see two or three unidentified small craft in the back ground. Just after the 50 second mark, as the fleet jumps to Hyperspace, you can see what look like the engines of four Corillean Corvettes. I can't get a decent count on the Rebel transports though.

[Captain Seafort]

It should also be noted that at least two Star Cruisers were present, if not three, along with Destroyer escorts.

My understanding was that there was a minimum of three cruisers - two flanking the Ex when she was destroyed, plus a third destroyed earlier by the superlaser.

[Knife]

It should also be noted that at least two Star Cruisers were present, if not three, along with Destroyer escorts.

My understanding was that there was a minimum of three cruisers - two flanking the Ex when she was destroyed, plus a third destroyed earlier by the superlaser.

I'm of the opinion that there were at least three there, but the ship destroyed by the superlaser looks a lot like a wingless Liberty type as well as a Home One type, so it could go either way.

Regarding the number of ships, Knife, has anyone here ever tried to do a count of the support ships? I think I once counted seven possible or confirmed Nebulon B Frigates in one shot (I think it was off the back of an old video tape box of all things).

I've always liked to presume they are in battle formations, a Star Cruiser, its SD escorts, and X amount of smaller frigates and Corvettes. Three really good pictures to judge this would be right before the jump to hyperspace and as they figure out the shield is still up at Endor.







In both of these, any formation the ships were in should still be very similar from Sullust to Endor. Using Home One as the center of the battle unit, you have the one Star Cruiser, one wingless SD above and behind, a winged SD below, and two more further back on the left side of the picture at Endor. you can make a case for another one above where you just see the dorsal side of the hull in picture two. Auxiliary ships, in the top picture, you have one frigate and three corvettes, and two cargo ships on the starboard side of the cruiser, you can see two more cargo ships on the port side as well. In picture two you can see those port cargo ships, but you can also see another frigate which is not in the proper place to be the original on the starboard side. I contend that two frigates are assigned to the Cruiser and each frigate has two corvettes and two cargo ships attached to their units.

So, I like to think that the Rebel Fleet at Endor was at least three battle groups, each group consisting of one Star Cruiser, 4-5 Star Destroyers, 2 frigates, 4 corvettes, and 4 cargo ships. In a fleet of at least three battle groups, that's 3 Star Cruisers, 12-15 Star Destroyers, 6 frigates, 12 corvettes, and 12 cargo ships (fireships). There were an estimate of 15-18 capital or upper tier vessels at Endor to fight the 25 Imperial ships of that tier, with an additional 30 lower tier ships and all the fighters.

But it depends on how you count them too, but in back ground scenes, there are an awful lot of MC style ships.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Sullustian Co-pilot: *Alien giberish*

Just as it's interesting trivia, that's not gibberish. It's a fully developed language more complete and articulate than any other 'alien language.'

Mostly because it's actually a real language. Two in fact, he speaks both Haya and Kikuyu, Kenyan languages. It was much appreciated in Kenya, although English is one of the main languages. They are apparently actual lines.

I did not know that.

I had a fairly long reply to LopEaredGaloot, but the internet ate it twice, so I'll just say this.

The Rebel Aliance is not a conventional military, and should not be treated as such. The Rebel Aliance is a chronically undermanned and underequiped insurgent force, it does not have all of the options available to a conventionaly military.