British guns used against Nato forces in Afghanistan

[[R_H]]

Dozens of British machine guns have been stolen in Afghanistan and used against Nato forces, The Daily Telegraph has learnt.

Serious questions are being asked about a cover-up by commanders in Helmand after the 59 Minimi machine guns were not reported missing for almost a year. The theft was revealed only when American forces recovered two of the guns following a battle with the Taliban.

Liam Fox, the Defence Secretary, who was told about the incident this week, is said to be furious that the weapons were allowed to be taken by the insurgents and, potentially, could have been used against British troops. He has ordered an inquiry into why enough weapons to equip an infantry battalion could go missing without anyone noticing or being informed.

The light machine guns, which can fire 1,000 rounds a minute, were flown from Britain to Camp Bastion in Helmand last October. They were then transported overland to British forces operating at Kandahar airfield but it is believed the convoy was either ambushed or the weapons were illegally sold. No one realised or reported that they had gone missing until last month, when American forces operating in southern Afghanistan discovered two of the guns, whose serial numbers matched those stolen. Defence sources have described the incident as a “terrible embarrassment for British forces”.

“We have no evidence that they have been used against British forces but clearly it’s an alarming situation,” said one defence source.

A Royal Military Police investigation has been under way since the end of last month. Dr Fox was said to be “livid” and “hit the roof” when told about the incident.

“Alongside the official investigation, he has ordered a wider review of how weapons are transported and is asking some serious questions over how this happened,” an MoD source said. “It’s astonishing that 59 machine guns went missing last year and no one realised it for months.”

An MoD spokesman confirmed the investigation “into the whereabouts of a number of weapons in Afghanistan which remain unaccounted for since late last year”.

He added: “We always take the care and maintenance of our equipment extremely seriously, which is why we have procedures in place to protect against the loss of assets in what continues to be a busy and complex operational environment. Whilst acknowledging the seriousness of this incident, we are confident that there are not significant or widespread problems with the delivery chain.”

Oopsies. That's got to be slightly embarassing.

[Steel]

If you look at news that shows captured Taliban weapons caches you'll quickly see that actually the majority of their weapons are British made.

Of course they are all things like the Lee Enfield, produced in 1895 and left over from the last time we were in charge there...

[Zixinus]

Wasn't there an article way back about how US and NATO weapons were on bazaars due to the stuff being given to Iraqi National forces whom in turn sold it off to someone else?

[Broomstick]

This happens in every war, are we really surprised by it?

Do people think there are no black market goods? That our weapons aren't occasionally captured by the enemy?

Now, if there was supposed to be a report filed on stolen weapons and it wasn't, well, that is an issue but in reality properly filed paperwork does not retrieve stolen goods.

[Sarevok]

So do the Taliban also have access to NATO calibre ammunution to go with the weapon ? This is not a stolen MANPAD or ATGM they can use once and forget about it. Machineguns require a steady supply of ammo.

[montypython]

So do the Taliban also have access to NATO calibre ammunution to go with the weapon ? This is not a stolen MANPAD or ATGM they can use once and forget about it. Machineguns require a steady supply of ammo.

NATO ammunition is available in Pakistan, so it wouldn't necessarily be surprising to find Taliban getting such supplies from there.

[Sarevok]

From the Pakistani military you mean ? I suppose they could try. But it would be a lot of effort some mere bullets. This is a serious incident in terms of security breach. But I would be concerned if Taliban stole something more lethal like Javelin missiles. The Taliban have no shortage of small arms. What they dont have is effective modern anti armor weapons.

[Night_stalker]

Well, don't they still have plenty RPG-7s left over from the Soviet invasion? Last I checked, RPG-7s were considerably cheaper, and easier to get than Javelins, or even M47 Dragons. I suspect that the culprit was some supply clerk looking to make some easy money. There is no way a convoy could just get attacked, then not report it to command. Either the paperwork wasn't filed for some odd reason, or they might have to start searching for a traitor. One or the other, it's hard to say for certain.

[Sarevok]

Well, don't they still have plenty RPG-7s left over from the Soviet invasion? Last I checked, RPG-7s were considerably cheaper, and easier to get than Javelins, or even M47 Dragons. I suspect that the culprit was some supply clerk looking to make some easy money. There is no way a convoy could just get attacked, then not report it to command. Either the paperwork wasn't filed for some odd reason, or they might have to start searching for a traitor. One or the other, it's hard to say for certain.

From what I understand RPG-7s are a quite outdated design. They have an effective range less than 300 meters. They are not guided. And their armor penetration does not guarantee a kill even against light armored vehicle. RPG-7s are still dangerous but a Javelin would allow Taliban reliably inflict dangerous causalities on Coalition armor as opposed to harassment.

Regarding the second point that is what causes concern for me too. If the machine guns were seized by the enemy during a battle it would be understandable. But someone in the British army handing over weapons to terrorists ? Thats a very uncomfortable thought if that kind of thing indeed happened.

[Stark]

Being unguided isn't outdated for an RPG; people still make unguided systems because they're cheap. These guys are using outdated ROCKETS, but those are just fine for what they use them for (outside of anti-armour). Seriously, a Javelin is going to be orders of magnitude more expensive and require skilled users.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Pretty much every Afghan village has some ammunition manufacturing capacity. There's a city, Darra Adam Khel , in the Northwest Frontier, which has the ability to produce several hundred guns a day--knockoffs of Lee Enfields, of AKM/AK-47s, of SKS's, M-16s, 57mm Russian anti-aircraft cannon in the most extreme case, you name it, give them a cople weeks to take apart a copy, and they can start turning out replicas on more or less hand and diesel generator powered equipment in mud huts. They started making jezails, upgraded to knockoffs of British Sniders in the 1870s, went on Martini-Henries, Lee-Medfords, Lee-Enfields, then AK-47s.... 75% of the population of the city is involved in firearms manufacturing and they produce 400 - 700 guns a day, which are sold throughout the tribal areas and Afghanistan, and substantial quantities of ammunition as well. In short, this is nothing; all it means is that Darra Adam Khel is now able to produce FN Minimi machine guns, which they may well have already been able to do. The Taliban certainly has more or less unlimited stocks of 5.56 NATO, and 7.62 NATO and 7.62 x 39mm, and 7.62 x 54mm, and .303 Enfield, and .45/577 Martini-Henry, for that matter.

Guns are a status symbol, are a symbol of manhood, and are a necessary survival tool in a region of the world where every single village is, sooner or later, at war with all of their neighbours in turn over some trivial feud or another. You could no more prevent them from entering the combat region than you could prevent them from obtaining the air that they breathe. The only Pashtun who is not able to obtain a rifle is a dead one, and if it's only three hundred years from now that such facts begin to change, I shall be impressively surprised with the rapidity of the progress made.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Being unguided isn't outdated for an RPG; people still make unguided systems because they're cheap. These guys are using outdated ROCKETS, but those are just fine for what they use them for (outside of anti-armour). Seriously, a Javelin is going to be orders of magnitude more expensive and require skilled users.

RPG-7 requires a skilled user as well if you actually want to reach that 300 meters effective range or hit anything moving... The RPG-7 is in fact slightly more sophisticated weapon that disposable AT weapons such as the M72 LAW or even the newer AT-4. It's just so common in third world countries that many people believe it to be the AK-47 of anti-tank weapons. Of course in those countries many of the users don't either know how to use the optical sight properly or it is either damaged, lost or otherwise unavailable, so they just use the backup iron sights.

[Stark]

I think 'aim with a scope and pray' is a bit less skilled than 'maintain and use complex electronic equipment'. The RPG7s they use aren't the modern ones; they're just an optical sight and a pipe full of black powder. I don't think your average Afghan is drilled in Javelin CLU bit errors, and 20 RPG7s is a lot more useful for their role than a single Javelin.

And the idea your average guy in Afghan is a particularly accurate shot with it is a bit of a stretch.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I think 'aim with a scope and pray' is a bit less skilled than 'maintain and use complex electronic equipment'. The RPG7s they use aren't the modern ones; they're just an optical sight and a pipe full of black powder. I don't think your average Afghan is drilled in Javelin CLU bit errors, and 20 RPG7s is a lot more useful for their role than a single Javelin.

And the idea your average guy in Afghan is a particularly accurate shot with it is a bit of a stretch.

Well, it was not my intention to say that the RPG-7 requires the same amount of skill as an ATGM, and you certainly can use it with fairly minimal skill. Nevertheless, getting the most out of it requires a non-insignificant amount of skill. Using the optical sight properly requires you to evaluate the target speed and range as well as any crosswind.

[Stark]

That's another advantage of the giant RPG7 stockpiles; people can practice. With the end of the cold war, will vast stocks of the newer (more effective) rockets ever enter the arms markets? If these guys had the rockets that can penetrate 600mm that'd really suck for the allies.

[Marcus Aurelius]

That's another advantage of the giant RPG7 stockpiles; people can practice. With the end of the cold war, will vast stocks of the newer (more effective) rockets ever enter the arms markets? If these guys had the rockets that can penetrate 600mm that'd really suck for the allies.

PG-7VL and PG-7VR have been spotted in Hezbollah hands; probably delivered from Syrian army stockpiles. Hezbollah even had at least one RPG-29! Some advanced rounds have also been found in Iraq, although the vast majority is still baseline PG-7V. PG-7VR, however, is not as useful as one might think, because it has slower Vmax and therefore smaller effective range than the single-stage HEAT rounds. This applies especially in a relatively open terrain such as most of Afghanistan. For such terrain outside the cities the PG-7VL would probably be the best round.

The newer rockets from PG-7VL on also require a new version of the PGO-7 optical sight delivered with the RPG-7V1 for the best results, since the older sights do not account for their slower velocity. That is, assuming you have been trained to use the optical sight at all and it is actually available, which like I wrote earlier, is often not the case in third world countries.

[Stark]

In built-up areas I'd imagine the newer rounds would lead to more armour losses, but as you say that's not so important in Afghanistan.

[Patroklos]

I think they could have been a little more clear on the wording, 59 of these weapons does not arm a battalion, but rather just their light machine gun requirement.

[Phantasee]

That's... exactly what the article said. It did not suggest that every single man in an infantry battalion would be equipped with a Minimi, but that is how many a battalion has.

Unless you have serious reading comprehension problems and/or a desire to show off how much more you know than the article writer/the world at large.

[Zaune]

Another thought occurs to me. Buying rounds that would at least cycle through a Minimi shouldn't be hugely difficult -there are plenty of .223 weapons in police and recreational use- and as noted above, the Taliban have the capability to manufacture their own. However, reliable disintegrating-link belts to go with the rounds might be a bit harder, and the Minimi goes through rounds so fast that firing it with ordinary rifle magazines in the fire-support role is more trouble than it's worth.

And I note that nowhere in the article does it actually confirm that the other 57 Minimis are in Taliban hands, and weren't just sent to a different battalion by mistake; the only verifiable fact in the article is that two Minimis were recovered from enemy forces that came from a batch that isn't where the database says it's supposed to be. A convoy being ambushed would be next to impossible to cover up, and I can't see either a load of Afghans burgling Kandahar Airbase's armoury and carrying off 59 quite weighty guns unnoticed or A British quartermaster topping up his (admittedly poor) salary by flogging weapons to the enemy.

[Sea Skimmer]

Cover up need not be involved. It would easy enough for someone not to write down what went on a truck, the truck gets lost in an ambush and looted, and whoever recovers the wreck later just marks it down as empty/unknown cargo. No one is trying to cover anything up, but the weapons fall into enemy hands without a proper paper trail.

[Zaune]

True, but the British Army isn't so generously supplied and equipped that 59 squad automatic weapons going missing wouldn't be noticed in short order. I could see the top brass burying this cock-up for a couple of months, but not a whole year.