UFP vs Tyranids, with a twist

[Srelex]

I'm aware that under usual circumstances, the Feds would be steamrolled by the Tyranids, or any 40k faction. However, this scenario is different. In 2365, the Enterprise-D encounters a lone Tyranid hive ship that is essentially dead but physically intact, containing multitudes of all primary types of Tyranid that are also harmless but still available for study. Through Q or whatever, they learn that in 120 years, a Hive Fleet (equal in size to Gorgon, which attacked was repelled by the Tau) will invade the Alpha Quadrant.

In essence, the Feds have just over a century to prepare and study. How will they go about this, and will they stand a chance?

[Arachnidus]

They'd probably attempt to capture some specimens, fail miserably, we'd sit through 40 minutes of red alerts and explosions, Picard would say something daring and we'd wind up with a brilliant compromise where the Feds go off scans of the Tyranids and develop a proper countermeasure. Then again, these are the muses of a 15 year old who's seen way too much Star Trek and played way too little W40k to make a proper opinion. Still, I think that, with the proper use of forcefields, transporters, restraint and common sense, the Enterprise crew would be able to snag maybe two or three specimens safely. Possibly all without compromising the safety of the ship too much.

[Srelex]

Er...I specified that all the Tyranids aboard the hive ship are dead but intact, like the ship itself, and hence available as good quality specimens for study. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

[Arachnidus]

My bad, I misread that. Hmm, well, then they'd obviously have to go on simulations as to the Tyranids' behavior and combat doctrine, but overall it shouldn't be too hard for the Feds to analyze the corpses and devise some type of stratagem to combat the swarm. It'd be tough as hell, but it could be done. The final battle would probably resemble Wolf 359.

[Darmalus]

I'm worried about the quality of an modeling they did of Tyranid behavior. This is, after all, the same UFP that thought half a dozen batleth wielding Klingons could overrun a WW2 machine gun nest.

[Samuel]

The feds discover where the Tyranids will enter (these are people who deal with warp anomalies every other day) lay a self replicating mind field. I wonder how many you can get if it works for a century?

If that is cheating than it depends on Federation technological progress and industrial which we don't know much about.

[Rossum]

Well, the Federation has been shown to have some pretty advanced knowledge of medicine and biochemistry (considering that they appear to think that using drugs to cure radiation sickness is better than giving redshirts radiation suits). Also, DS9 had an episode where both the Maquis and Sisko had access to specialized weapons that could render planets uninhabitable to certain species while (apparently) harmless to others. Plus, Voyagers EMH was able to modify borg nanoprobes to make them deadly against Species 8472. Starfleet already has access to nanotechnology (which Wesley can mutate into sapient nanomachines apparently) so I don't think its a stretch to assume that Starfleet could whip up something nanotech based with a decent amount of research time.

Thus, at the very least, Starfleet should be able to synthesize a variety of deadly toxins or nanotech based weapons that could seriously disrupt the Tyranid swarms once they land on a planet. Starfleet may or may not have trouble fighting the Tyranids in space if they build enough ships and equip them properly, but they should easily be able to render any planets the Tyranids land on utterly uninhabitable.


If the Nids try eating all the biomass on a planet, the Federation could just fire a few toxic bombs into the atmosphere that renders the planet uninhabitable to the Zerg swarm. They might not even have to have a ship up there if they replicate some bombs or nanotech on the planet, set it to activate if the Tyranids try eating the planet, and then let the Nids try and take it.

Again, I don't know exactly how well Starfleet would fare in space combat against a Tyranid swarm, but they should easily be able to render any captured planets uninhabitable to Tyranid life. They may lose some planets, but they could very well guarantee that the Tyranids would be unable to get any resources from the planets they attack. The rest is a matter of either killing the Tyranid hive fleet, convincing it to leave the galaxy, or establish diplomatic talks with it so they their various races can live in harmony.

Admiral Janeways Head-in-a-jar: Attention Tyranid hive fleet, we are the United Federation of Planets and we wish to establish diplomatic contact with you. In case you are wondering, every Federation citizen if this half of the galaxy has been inoculated with Magic Anti-Tyranid Spray and any attempt to eat any of us or to devour any of our planets will result in you dying horribly.

Hive Fleet: Grawrr... Your flesh belongs to the swarm. The flesh of all thing belongs to the Tyranids.

Admiral Janeway's Head: Ah yes. Ensign Kim's Headless Body, fire the Anti-Tyranid torpedoes.

Harry Kim's Headless Body: Grawr! *slams his fist on a button*

*A specialized torpedo launches from the Federation ship and hits a large Hive Ship. A ripple force runs through it as several kilos of synthetic allergens and nano-viruses are pumped into the Tyranid system which gives it an instantly fatal allergic reaction that kills it.*

Admiral Janeway's Head: Ah, finally our advanced medical technology is being used in the way it was originally intended.

*A glass of Tyranid Tears is beamed right next to Janeway's Head with a swizzle straw in it. She turns a little bit and slurps it up.*

Admiral Janeway's Head: Refreshing!

[Imperial528]

Your being sarcastic, right?

[Cykeisme]

Ah, but it's not quite so simple. The Federation's no-limits fallacy knowledge of biology has to go up against the Tyranid's no-limits fallacy ability to "adapt".

The Imperium has virus bombs that reduce all biomass on a planet into combustible mist, yet Battlefleet Gothic outlines a Tyranid ship that took several hits from torpedoes loaded with that stuff and managed to stagger off.
Later, the Hive Ship modified and re-engineered a more potent version of the same stuff and fired projectiles filled with it back into Imperium ships.

The feds discover where the Tyranids will enter (these are people who deal with warp anomalies every other day) lay a self replicating mind field. I wonder how many you can get if it works for a century?

Err, Star Trek warp and "the warp" in 40k are hardly the same thing, even if they have the same name. Otherwise, we could deploy ancient Greek troops to fight against sci-fi space fleets, since they have a lot of experience using "shields" as well as breaching them.
Even if there were somehow fixed points that the Tyranids pop out of the Immaterium (doubtful), I doubt the Federation would be able to figure out where they were.


EDIT: I just realized, the key word is "adapt". Anything that is able to "adapt" automatically gets a +10 to awesomeness in Star Trek!

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Since Tyranids tend to hold their own against other 40k powers, their weapons output and endurance is simply beyond the Federation's capabilities. If Starfleet comes up with some sort of nanotech solution, they'd better start deploying it throughout the hive fleet's path, because those fleets tend to branch off and out maneuver foes when they can't simply overpower them, and Tyranid FTL will be completely unpredictable to Starfleet. If Starfleet doesn't wipe out the whole swarm at once with their magic nanites, they run the risk of the fleet scattering, absorbing a quadrant or two, and coming back angry.

I also doubt that the Tyranids will leave any of their target planets inhabitable once the invasion begins, no matter how effective the nanites are. Tyrannoforming is a very fast process.

[Sarevok]

This is UFP.... King of technobabble solutions. They are also just as inconsistent in firepower yields as 40k. So if this were a tng episdode it would end with Dr Crusher coming up with a virus which kills all tyranids and picard moralizing about the ethics of it. 40k fans may argue otherwise but you know this is how they would write it in trek. Even wonky energy beings and s8472 fell victim to federation treknobabble.

[Feil]

There's no contest. Absurd space bug bio-technology is still technology, and Star Trek is still tens of thousands of years behind in the arms race. Star Trek cannot catch the Hive Fleet. They cannot bring them to battle. They have no weapons which can harm them. They have no vessels which can withstand their attacks. They lack the space forces to stop the Hive Fleet from reaching their worlds. They have no ground forces to slow them down.

The Imperium of Man has had centuries to try to find a magic bullet to defeat the Tyranids. They are capable of engineering sub-species specific viruses in a matter of weeks or days - with only the resources available to a single small strike force of warships. They have successfully annihilated Tyranid splinter fleets with these viruses - although the actual deployment of the virus has tended to require forces which the Federation simply cannot provide, namely Space Marines or the equivalent. Simply loading the virus into a torpedo and shooting it at the enemy has proven ineffective. Viruses that are effective once are never effective again.

Giving the Federation a century to prepare accomplishes nothing towards defeating their enemy. No plague which they develop will fare any better than those of the genocidal races of 40k. No weapons which they can deploy will do more than inconvenience the Hive Fleet. At best they can make meaningless revenge against the swarm by killing their own planets while the Hive Fleet is in the process of eating them.

If they are wise, they will devote that century towards moving a sustainable population into interstellar space. They can't save their planets, and they can't save their populations, but they can save their species, culture, and technology. Eventually the Tyranids will eat everything. Eventually they will leave.

[NecronLord]

I'm aware that under usual circumstances, the Feds would be steamrolled by the Tyranids, or any 40k faction. However, this scenario is different. In 2365, the Enterprise-D encounters a lone Tyranid hive ship that is essentially dead but physically intact, containing multitudes of all primary types of Tyranid that are also harmless but still available for study. Through Q or whatever, they learn that in 120 years, a Hive Fleet (equal in size to Gorgon, which attacked was repelled by the Tau) will invade the Alpha Quadrant.

In essence, the Feds have just over a century to prepare and study. How will they go about this, and will they stand a chance?

We really don't know what the UFP would be like in over a century enough to say.

[IvanTih]

I'm aware that under usual circumstances, the Feds would be steamrolled by the Tyranids, or any 40k faction. However, this scenario is different. In 2365, the Enterprise-D encounters a lone Tyranid hive ship that is essentially dead but physically intact, containing multitudes of all primary types of Tyranid that are also harmless but still available for study. Through Q or whatever, they learn that in 120 years, a Hive Fleet (equal in size to Gorgon, which attacked was repelled by the Tau) will invade the Alpha Quadrant.

In essence, the Feds have just over a century to prepare and study. How will they go about this, and will they stand a chance?

We really don't know what the UFP would be like in over a century enough to say.

Hmm,even after 164 years they didn't manage to reverse engineer that Quantum Slipstream drive?

[Srelex]

Another thing is that 120 years allows time for the Feds to build up a cohesive alliance in the Alpha Quadrant. Assuming the Feds can manage to hook up with the Romulans like they did during the Dominion War, is it possible to have thalaron radiation weapons ready for the Tyranids? After all, they're not facing someone who's going to immediately steamroll them like the Empire would--for the time being.

In regards to Tyranids adapting to the Imperium's bio-weapons: have nanotech weapons ever been deployed against them in 40k? That's another possibility for the Feds, as mentioned, and given how quickly the Doctor seemed to reprogramme Borg nanoprobes in Voyager, could Fed nanotech be designed to counter-adapt to any Tyranid 'adaptation'? We have a good idea of the Federation's scientific capabilities, I think, so this should be quantifiable.

[Arachnidus]

I'm aware that under usual circumstances, the Feds would be steamrolled by the Tyranids, or any 40k faction. However, this scenario is different. In 2365, the Enterprise-D encounters a lone Tyranid hive ship that is essentially dead but physically intact, containing multitudes of all primary types of Tyranid that are also harmless but still available for study. Through Q or whatever, they learn that in 120 years, a Hive Fleet (equal in size to Gorgon, which attacked was repelled by the Tau) will invade the Alpha Quadrant.

In essence, the Feds have just over a century to prepare and study. How will they go about this, and will they stand a chance?

We really don't know what the UFP would be like in over a century enough to say.

I was never really fond of that idea. I like STO's view a lot more, STFF was way too much like the SGU of Star Trek to be appropriate. Then again, with the knowledge of the Tyranids coming, perhaps the Feds would push themselves into such a situation?

[dragon]

Phasers seem to be more effective against organic matter than regular material, wonder who much more effective against hive material. Since the Trynids adpat fairly quicky phasers would lose effectiveness.

[Srelex]

How? Tyranids haven't been seen to adapt to lasguns or lance batteries, I think, and unless they can alter themselves at the atomic level, I can't see how they can 'adapt' to phasers.

[SapphireFox]

How? Tyranids haven't been seen to adapt to lasguns or lance batteries, I think, and unless they can alter themselves at the atomic level, I can't see how they can 'adapt' to phasers.

More likely they would ingest a higher metallic content for use in a thicker more resistant carapace. It's not borg adaption by far but I can see the Tyranids trying to evolve a better general defence against phasers. However there is nothing that says that they can't use the defenses they already posses for things like lance shots, that being the spore shields. (essentially flinging spores out to take the hit instead of you) On a more ground based defense they could use the zoanthrope's psychic shield to block shots for the group, thus acting like a squad shield emitter. A phaser can't vaporize something it can't hit. On an even more basic termagaunt level... well it wouldn't be the first time the 'Nids lost a metric crap load of swarm creatures to take out the enemy so they may just ignore some losses and zerg 'Nid rush the feddies to death.

[Darth Hoth]

This is UFP.... King of technobabble solutions. They are also just as inconsistent in firepower yields as 40k. So if this were a tng episdode it would end with Dr Crusher coming up with a virus which kills all tyranids and picard moralizing about the ethics of it. 40k fans may argue otherwise but you know this is how they would write it in trek. Even wonky energy beings and s8472 fell victim to federation treknobabble.

Nah, I prefer a TOS episode: The Enterprise duels with the Hive Fleet, a few planets are vapourised as they are hit by stray shots, and eventually the Tyranids teleport onboard the ship and capture it once shields are down; the crew is then brought on board the Hive Ship for interrogation. The Norn-Queen is most perplexed by this strange humanity which has individuality and love, and decides to keep them for study. Then, Kirk, Spock and McCoy in the biological Tyranid gut-prison launch a daring escape and invade the Queen's sanctum, before Kirk overloads its biowank circuits by saying "Everything I tell is a lie" (or if we are more original, "Biotech doesn't work") three times in a row, and the Enterprise is free to move on to new bold explorations.

All in a day's work!

(Although, I know, I ignored the chronology of the OP; Q probably changed it . . . )

[Solauren]

I'm aware that under usual circumstances, the Feds would be steamrolled by the Tyranids, or any 40k faction. However, this scenario is different. In 2365, the Enterprise-D encounters a lone Tyranid hive ship that is essentially dead but physically intact, containing multitudes of all primary types of Tyranid that are also harmless but still available for study. Through Q or whatever, they learn that in 120 years, a Hive Fleet (equal in size to Gorgon, which attacked was repelled by the Tau) will invade the Alpha Quadrant.

In essence, the Feds have just over a century to prepare and study. How will they go about this, and will they stand a chance?

What is point of entry? Wormhole connecting universes, or 'swarm attack from a specific vector/source point'.

If it's a wormhole, then the Federation can stop it with just the advanced warning and not understanding the Tyranids.

They have technology that should be able to collapse wormholes. (qv Deep Space Nine) The only reason it failed was a Changeling reverse it so it stablized the wormhole. It's also been hinted that the right explosive could collapse a wormhole. (again Deep Space Nine).

If that's the case, and they know where the wormhole is going to be, set up a Self-Replicating Borg Nanoprobe Mine Field (and surround it in all three dimensions out for hundreds of kilometers), and when the Wormhole opens up, collapse it with that tech. Afterwards, the minefield should be able to stop the Tyranids that got through.

That, and the space fleet they'd have amongst the Minefield firing away with everything they have.

A specific vector invasion, that doesn't involve a wormhole, would be alot harder to repel. They'd have to convince every power they know about and have any kind of relationship with of the threat (not hard with the bodies), and set up defenses at their arrival point. Unfortunately, without a wormhole to collapse, you're going to be dealing with a very powerful Tyranid swarm. If that's the case, the first battle will determine the entire war.

If they can stop the swarm then and there, they'll survive. If not, I hope they fortified every single world they could.

In order to stop the swarm, they'll probably have to throw everything they have, or ever throught up, at them. Every major power. Every tech, every weapon type. And they should expect high casualties. If they get Species 8472 on their side, they might have a better chance. At least, they'll have more bodies to throw at the swarm. Hell, it would be a good idea to try to make a Genesis-like torpedo again, and toss those at the Tyranids in addition to bioweapons and nanotech weapons.

Unfortunately, this would leave the galaxy wide open for the Borg.

Odds are, the UFP + rest of the Star Trek galaxy is toast. As Tyranid food, or Borg drones.

[Rossum]

Your being sarcastic, right?

A little bit, but not much. If we take the Star Trek episodes as canon then the Federation does have some pretty powerful medical/nanotech technology on hand that should be able to mess with anything complex like a bio-organism.

The way I see it, the Federation doesn't so much rely on high powered weapons (or even well designed weapons like their phasers) as they rely on finding weaknesses in their enemies and exploiting them. Thus, their phaser weapons seem designed to initiate chain reactions in matter instead of just pumping energy into them.

With access to samples of Tyranid DNA then the Federation should be able to get an idea of how they work and what their biological processes are in order to create a suitable toxin/allergen/virus/nanotech weapon to attack them. The Species 8472 battle seemed to show that Starfleet technology can do serious damage to some biotech species by using nanomachines. I know it sounds stupid that nanomachines could be used as a payload in a missile but it apparently works in-universe.

But like I said, even if Starfleet ships get their butts handed to them in a space fight, they should easily be able to make dirty bombs that render planets uninhabitable to tyranids (maybe while keeping them habitable to the Star Trek races as well but I'm thinking a charred toxic planet is more likely). If the Tyranids attack a planet, then the Federation just evacuates as many people as they can and sets off the device that turns the whole planet into Tyranid poison. Any tyrnids that try going to the surface to feed on biomass get killed.

Thus, as long as Starfleet can find out what planets the Tyranids might want to feed on and can develop weapons that render those planets toxic to tyranids (I don't think Tyranids are so good at magically adapting to stuff that they can render themselves totally immune to everything) and have a system set up to 'nuke' those planets once the Tyranids try to feed on them then they can effectively try to starve the Tyranid fleets. As long as the Hive Fleet can't feed on any planets then they can't grow stronger and Starfleet and its allies can work to stop them.

Though, if the Tyranids are attacking the galaxy and the Borg hear about it then they might be willing to form an alliance just as long as it takes to deal with this new threat (like they did with Species 8472). Sure, the Borg will try to backstab everyone after the threat is dealt with but I'm willing to say that life as a Borg drone is marginally better than being eaten by a Tyranid. The Borg will either find a way to assimilate the Tyranids or they will keep throwing Cubes at the hive fleet until something happens. Give the Borg bioweapons against the Tyranids and it should even things up (or at least make it so the Tyranids can't safely eat all the Borg cubes that are flying stupidly at them).


So, I would say that it should be perfectly reasonable to assume that Starfleet can develop a way to make planets and personnel inedible to the Tyranids (even if it results in the planet being rendered uninhabitable to anyone else or kills the person in question). These would likely be used as a last resort if they can't defeat the Tyranids in battle (if you're doomed to be Tyranid chow, might as well make sure you're too toxic for it to feed on you). If the Tyranids can't eat anyone then they won't grow in power and then its a matter of getting the Borg or whatever to wipe them out or convince them to leave the Galaxy.

The Tyranids want to feed, if every time they feed they lose biomass because their food committed suicide and turned into a virulent soup of Tyanid poison then they should either leave the galaxy, try to adap their fleshy biotechnology into eating stuff that is normally toxic to it (while a space capable civilization who's dedicated most of their tech into biotechnology tries to kill them), or stupidly try to fly around eating planets that turn to poison while every civilized race in the galaxy tries to kill them.

I'm going to say that in this scenario, its not that the Federation can't lose, its that the Tyranids can't win because the Federation would render its own planets uninhabitable to prevent the Tyranids from feeding off of them. I assume this is what pretty much any civilization in the Star Trek galaxy would do (or really in any setting). It just that the Federation has enough knowledge of biotech to pull it off.

But yeah, self-replicating mines, other weapons, an alliance with the Borg, and stuff would certainly improve the Federations chance of 'winning'. I'm just saying that the Tyranids can't win as long as the Federation has the capacity to render planets uninhabitable to the Tyranids.

[IvanTih]

Your being sarcastic, right?

A little bit, but not much. If we take the Star Trek episodes as canon then the Federation does have some pretty powerful medical/nanotech technology on hand that should be able to mess with anything complex like a bio-organism.

That's a bullshit,Imperium of Man an organization with far better medical(they have nanotech,they don't use it as a weapon and I believe in that nanowank thing) can't find poison or disease to kill Nids' since they will adapt to it.
Remember when Tau were attacked by the Hive Fleet Gorgon,that fleet constantly adapted to every tactic that Tau invented(Tau are known to be very adaptable,maybe I'm wrong).
Nids also have far greater firepower and defenses than the Federation.

[Srelex]

That's a bullshit,Imperium of Man an organization with far better medical(they have nanotech,they don't use it as a weapon and I believe in that nanowank thing) can't find poison or disease to kill Nids' since they will adapt to it.
Remember when Tau were attacked by the Hive Fleet Gorgon,that fleet constantly adapted to every tactic that Tau invented(Tau are known to be very adaptable,maybe I'm wrong).
Nids also have far greater firepower and defenses than the Federation.

I think the codex implied that Gorgon's adaptability was a unique attribute, although it was a tad ambigious. Also, where was it said that the Imperium has nanotech? I mean, if they haven't weaponized it, then it doesn't really matter. As said before, I haven't seen the Tyranids adapt to basic weapons like lasguns or bolters, so let's not go the route of the Borgwankers.

[IvanTih]

That's a bullshit,Imperium of Man an organization with far better medical(they have nanotech,they don't use it as a weapon and I believe in that nanowank thing) can't find poison or disease to kill Nids' since they will adapt to it.
Remember when Tau were attacked by the Hive Fleet Gorgon,that fleet constantly adapted to every tactic that Tau invented(Tau are known to be very adaptable,maybe I'm wrong).
Nids also have far greater firepower and defenses than the Federation.

I think the codex implied that Gorgon's adaptability was a unique attribute, although it was a tad ambigious. Also, where was it said that the Imperium has nanotech? I mean, if they haven't weaponized it, then it doesn't really matter. As said before, I haven't seen the Tyranids adapt to basic weapons like lasguns or bolters, so let's not go the route of the Borgwankers.

About the nanotech. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cult_of ... o-Omnisiah