This guy attacks Connor MacLeod

[IvanTih]

Found this,on the worst trektard site.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... &view=next
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... ec040a53f0

[Ghost Rider]

Being an immortal swordsman, Connor just has to soak a couple bullets and snap the bloke's neck or he could just run said guy through with a sword.

Given his love for blades, he'll just use a sword.

[Stark]

Afterward there will be no mention of debris, thus demonstrating vaporisation.

[IvanTih]

Being an immortal swordsman, Connor just has to soak a couple bullets and snap the bloke's neck or he could just run said guy through with a sword.

Given his love for blades, he'll just use a sword.

Or even better a power sword.

[Ghost Rider]

Afterward there will be no mention of debris, thus demonstrating vaporisation.

Quickening Mark II: Electric Boogaloo.

[Junghalli]

Actually 60 MJ/kg isn't enormously more energy density than gasoline, gasoline is about 45 MJ/kg. Perhaps he counts gasoline + atmospheric oxygen (as I remember from the last time this came up gasoline combines with several times it mass in atmospheric oxygen when it burns).

A chemical fueled single stage to orbit shuttle actually doesn't necessarily require magically energetic fuel. A hydrogen-oxygen rocket could do it with a mass ratio of 6/1, and a methane-oxygen rocket could do it with a mass ratio of 9/1. Atomic Rocket suggests a back of the napkin sane mass ratio for a 1 stage rocket to end at around 15/1. Granted these figures neglect atmospheric and gravitational drag. Compared to the kind of stuff that flies in 40K, being able to build a chemical-fueled SSTO rocket seems pretty reasonable to me.

It's also possible that it uses a ramjet/scramjet assist and so saves fuel by using atmospheric oxygen instead of internal oxidizer part of the way, which could potentially cut the required fuel mass considerably.

Just found that bit interesting.

[LionElJonson]

Ciaphas Cain wins. Assuming that Connor MacLeod doesn't get decapitated by a bolt pistol shot hitting his head or throat, and instead merely gets his insides turned to go or a limb shot off, he'll get quickly dispatched by Cain in hand-to-hand combat after Cain's power sword slices Connor's katana in half. Not like said katana could penetrate Cain's armor, anyway, though it doesn't protect Cain's head.

[Connor MacLeod]

A few other people have brought Oragahn to my attention and his antics over on SB (prior ot getting banned) have also been brought up to me. Frankly I can't get excited over some embittered old vs fan from Rob Brown's old boards getting pissy just cuz I dare to suggest GIGATONNZ might exist. And given how much he (and SFJ as a whole) obsess over SDN, SB, Mike Wong, Curtis Saxton, the ICS, "the Great Debate", and the "relevance" of such boards in general, I don't really feel all that threatened unless they took to stalking me. We're talking about people who think that the modship of SB are a bunch of secret warsie collaborators, for crying out loud.

The other thing is that if I did pay attention to them much, that would basically be giving them what they really seem to crave - validation. They're the sort who basically define themselves by who their enemies are. And if that fails they go out and manufacture new opposition.

Oragahn can rant and rave all he likes over on SFJ or wherever else he wants to lurk. I'm not exactly going to lose sleep over the fact that GASP! someone doesn't agree with me. And its even kinda amusing he couldn't be bothered to look at the material himself but he had to steal my own work to "analyze".

So that settled, let Shroomy come in and make some incredibly over the top phallic and sexual comments that pertain to 40K and Ciaphas cain in particular. He's a bit overdue for that here

[Connor MacLeod]

Afterward there will be no mention of debris, thus demonstrating vaporisation.

Is that supposed to be a snark or a criticsm of someone, and if so is it supposed to be directed at me?

Actually 60 MJ/kg isn't enormously more energy density than gasoline, gasoline is about 45 MJ/kg. Perhaps he counts gasoline + atmospheric oxygen (as I remember from the last time this came up gasoline combines with several times it mass in atmospheric oxygen when it burns).

Yep, and Diesel is a bit higher, but that's assuming 100% efficiency. the 60 MJ/kg thing isn't meant to be an upper limit in the least (That would be around the energy density of hydrogen, since I dont think you can go much more beyond that.) It's not even meant to be an exact figure anyhow, since ther'es some variation in thrust or escape velocity.

Mainly I'm commenting on the fact the Imperium's conventional (non nuclear) engines seem to be alot better performance prboably due to the fuels compared to what we can achieve.. Considering that quite often a load of promethium in a flamethrower can cremate a body (and thats even if I'm factoring in energy contributed by human fat content.), the stuff is damn energetic (quite possibly too energetic for a mere chemical reaction, but such are the problems in dealing with 40K.)

A chemical fueled single stage to orbit shuttle actually doesn't necessarily require magically energetic fuel. A hydrogen-oxygen rocket could do it with a mass ratio of 6/1, and a methane-oxygen rocket could do it with a mass ratio of 9/1. Atomic Rocket suggests a back of the napkin sane mass ratio for a 1 stage rocket to end at around 15/1. Granted these figures neglect atmospheric and gravitational drag. Compared to the kind of stuff that flies in 40K, being able to build a chemical-fueled SSTO rocket seems pretty reasonable to me.

The thing is, Imperium fighters and shuttles seem to do it without anything requiring insane mass ratios. I mean a atmospheric fighter plane that masses a mere 10 tons has a small rocket booster that can allow it to achieve orbit.

It's also possible that it uses a ramjet/scramjet assist and so saves fuel by using atmospheric oxygen instead of internal oxidizer part of the way, which could potentially cut the required fuel mass considerably.

Just found that bit interesting.

Something else I've considered. Or something exotic like an electorthermal-chemical type rocket or such. But the idea of "super energetic fuels" isn't predated wholly on this either. More often my concerns are that they're TOO magical (so I got to find ways to actually cut down on the energy density.)

[Junghalli]

It's not even meant to be an exact figure anyhow, since ther'es some variation in thrust or escape velocity.

Actually I believe 60 MJ represents the energy needed with a hydrogen oxygen rocket. The math works out. If we calculate the energy needed to reach orbital velocity with 100% efficiency it's roughly

1/2(1)(8000^2) = 32 MJ/kg

Whereas if we plug in the numbers for a HO rocket with a mass ratio of 6/1

1/2(6)(4500^2) = 60.75 MJ/kg boosted to orbit

Velocity in that case being the exhaust velocity of the rocket.

You're right though this is still a lowball as it assumes the fuel is accelerated with perfect efficiency.

The thing is, Imperium fighters and shuttles seem to do it without anything requiring insane mass ratios. I mean a atmospheric fighter plane that masses a mere 10 tons has a small rocket booster that can allow it to achieve orbit.

I imagine that the most straightforward rationalization is probably that the fuel tanks are very strong and contain the fuel under high very pressure, hence they can contain many times the mass of the craft in a small fraction of its volume (giving the apparent appearance of aircraft-like fuel fractions if you go by tank volume). I'm fairly sure there's already precedent for some absurdly strong materials in 40K, and at any rate compared to a lot of other stuff in that universe extremely strong high-pressure fuel tanks are relatively reasonable.

[Vympel]

A few other people have brought Oragahn to my attention and his antics over on SB (prior ot getting banned) have also been brought up to me. Frankly I can't get excited over some embittered old vs fan from Rob Brown's old boards getting pissy just cuz I dare to suggest GIGATONNZ might exist. And given how much he (and SFJ as a whole) obsess over SDN, SB, Mike Wong, Curtis Saxton, the ICS, "the Great Debate", and the "relevance" of such boards in general, I don't really feel all that threatened unless they took to stalking me. We're talking about people who think that the modship of SB are a bunch of secret warsie collaborators, for crying out loud.

We already know Mr. Oragahn continues to haunt the SB.com boards long after his banning, so I couldn't resist but mocking him recently. In particular, I made a vague reference to his - IIRC - 9/11 truther beliefs whilst shouting at him to get his desperate face off the SB.com glass and go home. I was then told (I never visit SFJ myself, my presence as a guest would increase their membership by an unacceptably high percentage, ) that Oraghan proceeded to refer to my mockery of him and that he fully admitted holding ... less than mainstream ... views about 9/11.

Given he holds those sorts of batshit insane beliefs about things that actually matter, its no suprirse he believes the modship of SB.com is united in a grand warsie conspiracy against their side of the "Great Debate" (because its not a fun little dalliance into fictional pap, its SERIOUS BUSINESS!)

I have no doubt that this very thread is or will be obsessively parsed and responded to over there. Its no wonder why they're a joke of a community. A dozen or so lonely people, defining their entire existence by their opposition to the denizens of boards that don't give a shit about them, pretending to be a community.

[IvanTih]

Ciaphas Cain wins. Assuming that Connor MacLeod doesn't get decapitated by a bolt pistol shot hitting his head or throat, and instead merely gets his insides turned to go or a limb shot off, he'll get quickly dispatched by Cain in hand-to-hand combat after Cain's power sword slices Connor's katana in half. Not like said katana could penetrate Cain's armor, anyway, though it doesn't protect Cain's head.

And in the end Cain will be saved by Jurgen who will turn Connor to ash with a melta blast.
All hail Caiphas Cain,the best cover user in the Imperium.

[Shroom Man 777]

So that settled, let Shroomy come in and make some incredibly over the top phallic and sexual comments that pertain to 40K and Ciaphas cain in particular. He's a bit overdue for that here

No.

I leave the human cockroaches to discuss their heroin and child pornography. I have business elsewhere, with a better class of person.

[Aaron]

Ciaphas Cain wins. Assuming that Connor MacLeod doesn't get decapitated by a bolt pistol shot hitting his head or throat, and instead merely gets his insides turned to go or a limb shot off, he'll get quickly dispatched by Cain in hand-to-hand combat after Cain's power sword slices Connor's katana in half. Not like said katana could penetrate Cain's armor, anyway, though it doesn't protect Cain's head.

Chainsword, Cain uses a chainsword.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

Ciaphas Cain wins. Assuming that Connor MacLeod doesn't get decapitated by a bolt pistol shot hitting his head or throat, and instead merely gets his insides turned to go or a limb shot off, he'll get quickly dispatched by Cain in hand-to-hand combat after Cain's power sword slices Connor's katana in half. Not like said katana could penetrate Cain's armor, anyway, though it doesn't protect Cain's head.

Chainsword, Cain uses a chainsword.

And a laspistol, not a bolt pistol.

[DrStrangelove]

Oragahn is on a crusade to prove that the gigatons don't exist in scifi. Except on the ridiculously high end like the Culture, and his own beloved Stargate which he no qualms rationalizing low showings, unlike say SW, 40K, ST, or Halo. He once remarked he thought my intelligence went down, because I used his own methods in analyzing Stargate

[IvanTih]

Oragahn is on a crusade to prove that the gigatons don't exist in scifi. Except on the ridiculously high end like the Culture, and his own beloved Stargate which he no qualms rationalizing low showings, unlike say SW, 40K, ST, or Halo. He once remarked he thought my intelligence went down, because I used his own methods in analyzing Stargate

You're the guy with Angry Marine on SpaceBattles.com?
Remember Mith,the guy who follows him?
He,can't disprove Downstreamers.
Know that 40k 610 GIGATON torpedo(120 5 GIGATON fusion warheads),he always tells that a writer made a mistake in writting(12 warheads) and says that the Torpedo is too big.

[Batman]

That's one crusade alright, given that ANH shows firepower far in excess of GT level, the ICSes explicitly say so, and that's just for Wars. I wonder how he'd deal with the nuWho not exactly late model or properlymaintained TARDIS being able to casually tow several planets FTL

[Junghalli]

I wonder how he'd deal with the nuWho not exactly late model or properlymaintained TARDIS being able to casually tow several planets FTL

Not really the best example: FTL is magic and therefore unquantifiable.

[Batman]

I wonder how he'd deal with the nuWho not exactly late model or properly maintained TARDIS being able to casually tow several planets FTL

Not really the best example: FTL is magic and therefore unquantifiable.

That's not necessarily true. It happens to be in this case and I thusly conceed that the example is useless but FTL can be quantifiable, if the medium in question actually presents numbers for their FTL technology.

[Darth Hoth]

Huh. Seems the Oraghan guy is also lurking around here, since he quotes the still-ongoing firepower thread in our Trek/Wars forum in his anti-BDZ thread on SFJ. Of course, when he went off to "debunk" my claim for Atraken's (partially) boiled seas, he quoted the source text completely out of contest.

Hey, Mr. O., since you are no doubt reading this, as well: Take a closer look at your material. You may find that the mines and New Atraken City that you attempted to pass off as being locations on Atraken are actually located on its moon, Trilos . . .

[Darksider]

Oragahn is on a crusade to prove that the gigatons don't exist in scifi. Except on the ridiculously high end like the Culture, and his own beloved Stargate which he no qualms rationalizing low showings, unlike say SW, 40K, ST, or Halo. He once remarked he thought my intelligence went down, because I used his own methods in analyzing Stargate

\

He can't rationalize Gigaton or Teraton level firepower in franchises that have casual melting of planetary crusts, and can on occasion blow up planets, but he thinks stargate can pull them off? The same stargate where ship weapons hitting the ground look like over sized grenade explosions?

[Junghalli]

That's not necessarily true. It happens to be in this case and I thusly conceed that the example is useless but FTL can be quantifiable, if the medium in question actually presents numbers for their FTL technology.

Obviously, but generally something like "can tow planets FTL" is a bad example to use for obviously impressive feats. Even if there's a tech manual that gives the numbers or something, it's not something that obviously requires awesome power on its face.

[Batman]

That's not necessarily true. It happens to be in this case and I thusly conceed that the example is useless but FTL can be quantifiable, if the medium in question actually presents numbers for their FTL technology.

Obviously, but generally something like "can tow planets FTL" is a bad example to use for obviously impressive feats. Even if there's a tech manual that gives the numbers or something, it's not something that obviously requires awesome power on its face.

Err-I'm sorry but if there is a TM saying it does (which is to my knowledge not the case for Dr Who) unless, as is the case for Trek, that TM is declared noncanon, yes, the TM in question saying so does mean they have the power stated in said TM unless there's higher canon to the contrary.

[Junghalli]

Err-I'm sorry but if there is a TM saying it does (which is to my knowledge not the case for Dr Who) unless, as is the case for Trek, that TM is declared noncanon, yes, the TM in question saying so does mean they have the power stated in said TM unless there's higher canon to the contrary.

Yes, but that's not my point.

My point is if you want to show something that on its face requires incredible power "they can tow planets FTL" is a bad example because FTL is magic so without detailed in-universe information for all we know that could take less energy than you need to power a light bulb. It would be better to use a feat that readily lends itself to quantification, like say towing a planet at relativistic speed.

I don't think we're actually disagreeing about anything here.