CIS Battle Droid AI

[Knife]

The clones were a win win for Palpatine, it gave him military power with an absolutely loyal force that would turn against a weakened Jedi Order when he told them too, and it was disposable so massive amounts of grieving widows and parents from the clone wars would not damage his power. The only hic up was how to introduce them, however it seemed Palpatine had cronies willing to put forth a military creation act through at the start of AotC where I'm sure he could bring in the clones under that.

[Channel72]

You guys don't even try anymore;

On whether or not the Republic saw the obvious conspiracy of Jango Fett and the Clones

If you have to turn to the novelization to explain critical plot points in the movie, then there's something wrong with the movie. As written, the movie indicates that the Clone Army was used because the "Commerce guilds are preparing for war" - information which seems to be based on nothing other than a sketchy transmission from Obi-Wan. The movie doesn't do anything to demonstrate that the Jedi are against the use of Clones because they know it's a conspiracy. Yoda simply says he's going to Kamino, and the next time we see him he's commanding the clones.

Secondly, even those novelization quotes of yours do nothing to explain why Dooku would be stupid enough to allow the Separatist leaders to know about his association with Jango.

[Jim Raynor]

You guys don't even try anymore;

On whether or not the Republic saw the obvious conspiracy of Jango Fett and the Clones

If you have to turn to the novelization to explain critical plot points in the movie, then there's something wrong with the movie. As written, the movie indicates that the Clone Army was used because the "Commerce guilds are preparing for war" - information which seems to be based on nothing other than a sketchy transmission from Obi-Wan. The movie doesn't do anything to demonstrate that the Jedi are against the use of Clones because they know it's a conspiracy. Yoda simply says he's going to Kamino, and the next time we see him he's commanding the clones.

In the movie, Mace Windu directly ask Obi-Wan if he suspects that the Kaminoans are up to something. He tells them that he thinks they're innocent, and that he sees "no motive." This carries far more weight than the mere opinion of a normal person, because Jedi have the capability to read mines and detect emotions. Regardless, Yoda still tells Obi-Wan to investigate further.

Obi-Wan's transmission flat out states that the commerce guilds have pledged their armies to the Separatist cause. He also directly states that the Trade Federation has tried to assassinate a prominent Republic Senator, and the whole thing ends with Obi-Wan being attacked and possibly killed. That's not sketchy, that's something that needs immediate action.

The only thing that the Senate does in response is give Palpatine emergency powers, which he states he will use to create the Republic army that was already being debated before, clones or no clones. The only thing the Jedi do is send a force to Geonosis to deal with Dooku and possibly rescue Obi-Wan. Yoda goes to Kamino alone to check out the Clone Army. He presumably sees nothing wrong there either (supporting Obi-Wan's testimony), and decides to bring the clones to Geonosis himself since it's an emergency situation.

The movie doesn't clearly go over the whole thing, but when the Jedi can have a high degree of certainty about people's intentions just by meeting with them, and they were rushing to deal with a crisis, it's plausible that Yoda just took things into his own hands and activated the clone army.

[Jim Raynor]

To further clarify, the end of Knife's first quote is interesting to me (when Yoda and Mace first hear about the clone army's creation). That's because it's both the correct suspicion, and it doesn't necessarily imply a conspiracy to destroy the Republic. Someone could be looking out for the interests of the Republic, and still want to murder Amidala to remove her political oppositoin. As I said before, the movie itself has Obi-Wan relaying the Kaminoans' claim that Sifo Dyas was acting on behalf of the Senate. The movie makes it clear that many Senators already supported the creation of an army. So you can plausibly suspect a conspiracy, but it could be on the level of a someone (doesn't even have to be someone at the top) just trying to murder Padme to push their black projects through, without necessarily engineering the entire war or plotting the downfall of the Republic.

[Adam Reynolds]

The Jedi knew it was some sort of conspiracy, but the Republic had more immediate problems with an coming attack of Separatists and their battle droids to worry about and the politicians decided to use the suspicious clone army anyway. Let alone the obvious that Sidious was the Chancellor and wanted to use the Clone Army for his own personal goals. What goals?

This was also one of the main developments in Labyrinth of Evil. This is the first time that the Jedi really start to investigate who Darth Sidious really was. That is until Grievous attacks Coruscant ruining their plans.

[Knife]

If you have to turn to the novelization to explain critical plot points in the movie, then there's something wrong with the movie.

The movie scenes were not that different than the novel all the novel did was spell it out, and most people figured it out from just the movie, just not you.

As written, the movie indicates that the Clone Army was used because the - information which seems to be based on nothing other than a sketchy transmission from Obi-Wan].

No, the Clone Army was used because the Republic needed an Army to reinforce the stretched out Jedi Order, that was in the prologue of the movie, and they had an immediate need for the Army, the battle of Geonosis.

The movie doesn't do anything to demonstrate that the Jedi are against the use of Clones because they know it's a conspiracy. Yoda simply says he's going to Kamino, and the next time we see him he's commanding the clones.

Because there isn't anything inherently wrong with the Clones. Both Obi Wan and Yoda went to Kamino and didn't detect any sign of conspiracy from the Kaminioeans. On paper, the Clone Army was fine, a good, battle ready, loyal to the Republic force. The Jedi immediately knew something was up because the clones were of a bounty hunter Obi Wan was tracking due to the assassination attempt, but the Army itself was OK.

It's obvious that they had questions about the clones, but it is also obvious that the political leaders had an immediate and dire need for an army that the Jedi could not cover on their own.

Secondly, even those novelization quotes of yours do nothing to explain why Dooku would be stupid enough to allow the Separatist leaders to know about his association with Jango.

Meh, Jango was a glorified Merc. It does raise some eyebrows but it's not as big as a problem as you seem to think it is. 10 years ago some part of the Republic government wanted a clone army and hires a merc to be the template for a decade. At the same time that merc still does odd ball jobs as a MERC. Gee, wonder if a separatist movement would need or want mercs? hmmmm

[Channel72]

The movie doesn't clearly go over the whole thing, but when the Jedi can have a high degree of certainty about people's intentions just by meeting with them, and they were rushing to deal with a crisis, it's plausible that Yoda just took things into his own hands and activated the clone army.

Sure, but for such an important plot point - the start of the Clone Wars - the movie really glosses over a lot, leaving the viewer to fill in a lot of blanks. The basic chain of events is easy enough to deduce: the Republic discovers an unprecedented military buildup and imminent attack from the Separatists, and desperately decides to use this mysterious (albeit convenient) Clone Army, which unbeknownst to the Senate, was secretly created by a Sith lord who also controls the Separatists.

But the movie really glosses over the incredibly suspicious and mysterious circumstances surrounding the creation of the Clones. You can keep arguing that it doesn't matter, because the Republic was just so damn desperate, but it does matter to the audience. It would have helped a lot if the movie at least showed the Jedi or the Senators addressing this issue, just so they don't come off as oblivious tools. For example, perhaps the Jedi are led to believe that the Clones were created by some pro-war Senator who did so in secret to avoid all the bureaucracy?

The only remaining question would be Jango Fett, which is pretty difficult to resolve satisfactorily. Yeah, he was a mercenary for hire, but in a population of quadrillions, what's the chance that the same merc would serve both as the Clone template and as an assassin for the Separatists? This really should have set off some serious red flags. Again, I realize the Republic was desperate, but I think the script at least needs to make it a point to show that the Jedi reluctantly were forced into using the Clones.

In fact, there's an interesting article which argues this exact point. The author of this article sums up my feelings pretty well with the following statement:

That the Jedi do not comment on any of these issues, nor act upon them ... is quite strange. Yoda says, "meditate on this, I will," but all he does is go to Kamino and take the mysterious clone army for himself to use.

The article goes on to say that earlier drafts of the script included scenes which helped to clarify a lot of this, but for whatever reason, were cut from the final draft. Of particular significance is the paragraph which reads:

In this [earlier draft] version of the film, the Jedi are shown to suspect and acknowledge that the creation of the army may be a ploy to foster the impending war. Unlike the final film, which points to Dooku as the culprit and thus should evoke strong suspicions about the war's motivation (i.e. that is a ruse where both sides are manipulated by the Sith), here the Jedi's motivation is explained clearer: they believe that it is a member of the Senate who is in favor of propagating the war that ordered the clones for the Republic (remember, the senate is equally split in its pro-war and anti-war supporters, so this is logical and likely), but that he used an alias and claimed to be a Jedi in order to protect his identity.

If the Jedi were led to believe that the Clone Army was created by some pro-war Senator to use against the Separatists, it would be understandable when they eventually agreed to use the army. But in the film we actually got, the evidence available to the Jedi (i.e. Jango Fett) suggests that the Clones were created by the Separatists. Therefore, even taking into account the desperate situation, a lot of audience members are going to come off with the impression that the Jedi are idiots for failing to acknowledge such an obvious conspiracy. After all, that was my impression.

[Knife]

Keep in mind that Dooku was a former member of the council, a highly esteemed Jedi Master who left the order. Granted, he secretly left the Order to be a cackling villain, but to the public and the movie watcher, he left the Order on principle. He left the Order and the Republic and started a Separatist movement because the Republic was corrupt and as he told Obi Wan, a Sith was controlling the Senate.

Now granted, Lucas was a bit heavy handed with it all, since as movie goers we all knew Palpatine was really the villain and such, but as the RotS prologue says, there are heros and villains on both sides. The whole set up was supposed to look like a principled person tried to save the Republic from the inside, couldn't, went out side to save it with principled opposition. It was all a ruse, of course, and could have been handled a bit better, but it's not some huge plot hole you keep thinking it is.

[Metahive]

Keep in mind that Dooku was a former member of the council, a highly esteemed Jedi Master who left the order. Granted, he secretly left the Order to be a cackling villain, but to the public and the movie watcher, he left the Order on principle. He left the Order and the Republic and started a Separatist movement because the Republic was corrupt and as he told Obi Wan, a Sith was controlling the Senate.

Problem is that only a few scenes later he reveals himself as a Sith and as ROTS shows the CIS leadership was always in the know about the allegiance of its founder, even had direct contact to Sidious himself. Also, the members of the CIS are pretty much made up of all those morally bankrupt galactic megacorporations that benefited most from the corruption of the Republic which makes them joining a movement with the goal to violently if necessary leave the Republic so hair-pullingly counter-intuitive.

The CIS as presented in the movies and TV series is nothing but a shallow conglomerate of cackling villain types with neither redeeming features nor any sort of believable cause. Remember Lok Durd's attempt to test his souped-up Agent Orange on a village full of pacificsts? Or the Tech Union using "human" shields on Ryloth? What about them wishing to unleash a deadly plague upon the Republic with the help of the deranged Dr Nuvo Bindi? And for what exactly? Better business opportunities?
I simply fail to see anything "heroic" or "principled" within the ranks of the CIS unless you mean "heroic" in the classical sense (=bad ass) and "principled" as in "principled evil".

[Knife]

Oh I agree it was handled badly, but that doesn't make it some how inconsistent or anything. For the lay person of the Galaxy, the Clone Wars were one group of citizens fighting and rebelling against corruption in the Federal government, aided by large corporate interests that were being saddled unfairly with taxes. Dooku, seen as a principled ex-Jedi, led it against the corrupt Senate and corrupt Jedi he'd left.

Really, it was an elegant Jedi trap as described in RotS. Dooku was a fall guy, as were the corporate interests. But to the lay person of the galaxy, Dooku having put together an army a decade ago for the Republic and then turning around and leaving the Republic due to perceptions of corruption and then ironically fighting against the very army he helped bring about is not that inconsistent.

[Jim Raynor]

I agree that they could and should have done more to clarify the the Jedi's belief that the clones were a creation for the Republic, ordered by powerful people within the Republic. I did not know about the previous drafts which did actually do that, and it's unfortunate that those lines were edited out. The final movie handles that plot thread in an awkward manner. But at least that was the writer's intention, and furthermore there are remnants of that angle in the final film:

As I said before, there's that line in the movie where Obi-Wan tells Yoda and Mace that the Kaminoans created the army because of a request that originated from the Senate. Furthermore, the movie begins with Padme as one of the voices pushing against an increasingly militaristic movement in the Republic Senate. She's trying to kill the Military Creation Act, so it follows that there might be some in the Republic who would want to kill her. Early in the movie, I thought it was pretty obvious that it was connected to Padme's politics. Padme herself suspects that Dooku is behind the assassination attempt, but it should be noted that within the movie, the Jedi themselves don't believe her speculation. They did not see war with the Separatists as inevitable until Obi-Wan's report from Geonosis (late in the movie), and they thought that Dooku was a good man who could never plot murder. These things in the movie support the intended explanation that Jedi didn't suspect worse because they had a relatively smaller, pro-Republic conspiracy on their minds. Though they should have included a line where the Jedi shift their eyes to the Senators, rather than that irrelevant "disgruntled spice miners" red herring that was brought up.

I think everyone can agree that Jango Fett raised some big red flags and can naturally lead an audience to think certain things. But him joining the Separatists isn't proof that the army is bad; a viable explanation is that he got paid to help make the army, and now he sold out again to the Separatists who want to use his knowledge to fight the clones.

I think another contributing problem isn't even from the movie itself, but from peoples' preconceived notions. The "evil clone" is a common trope in scifi. When people heard that there would be clones, they assumed that the Jedi and the Republic would be fighting them. They immediately saw the clone army as this big scary threat, when the movie actually didn't portray them as such. On the other hand, the characters in the movie were relatively nonchalant about them. The clones weren't presented as something radical or exotic; the Kaminoan leader states that they have created clone armies in the past. The Jedi weren't concerned about their clone nature either; the thing that bothered them was that someone had bought the army for the Senate using the identity of a dead Jedi. Obi-Wan vouched for the Kaminoans' innocence, and it was basically accepted that yes, the army was for the Republic. Meanwhile, the audience was watching the movie from the outside, where they had knowledge of Palpatine's conspiracy and connected the clones to their "evil" Stormtrooper successors. While AOTC didn't do the best job of making its intentions clear, some people's own preconceived ideas probably colored their perceptions of the plot while they watched the movie.

[Jim Raynor]

Damn, I should've looked over my post again because I left some things out that I meant to say:

I've seen some complaints about the movie that the Jedi seemed stupid for accepting an army seemingly created by their enemies, which has been brought up in this thread and others. But despite the Jango Fett stuff (which is confusing and requires thought to rationalize), how logical a guess is that? What kind of conspiracist creates an army for the other side, to kick his own ass with? If the clones were a sinister Separatist plot, then why would they tell the Kaminoans that the clones were for the Republic, thus ensuring that they deliver it to the Republic (it's a lot harder to deliver an entire army to the wrong person, than it is to accept an order from the wrong person)? It is also not logical to assume that the clones would somehow be "bad" after they entered Republic service; an army is way too big, and way too interconnected that it would be well understood by the people using them. The idea that the clones were the Separatists' is ridiculous.

Now of course the real conspiracy was that Palpatine was fixing both sides of the conflict, and that the conflict itself was just the means by which he could erode the Republic's democratic system and eventually elevate himself into a dictator. That is an extremely outlandish and ridiculous scenario (if only it weren't true), on par with the "Obama is a Muslim Manchurian candidate" fringe nonsense going around today. The Jedi didn't get any hint of that during Obi-Wan's investigation (Dooku's statements came later, and Yoda decides on a middle road of doubting his probable deception while also taking a closer look at the Senate). So Palpatine as the mastermind doesn't enter the equation, and as I went over in the above paragraph it doesn't make sense to assume that the Separatists would create their own destroyers.

So basically, the movie itself just shows the clones as a secret military build up for the Republic. It glosses over who secretly ordered it for the Republic, or how it connects to the attempts on Padme's life. But the allegiance of the clones is not a question for any of the characters, after Obi-Wan sticks up for the Kaminoans.

[Channel72]

While AOTC didn't do the best job of making its intentions clear, some people's own preconceived ideas probably colored their perceptions of the plot while they watched the movie.

True - a big source of confusion is the nature of the Clones themselves. After watching ROTS my initial understanding was that Order 66 was actually some kind of hard-wired command programmed into the Clones, thus making the Clones an entire army of sleeper agents waiting to be activated. Most people I discuss the film with think the same thing. Later I read some quote from one of the novelizations, which explained that the Clones were not hard-wired for anything; rather, Order 66 was some kind of last-resort contingency plan, buried deep in an obscure Republic law-code (and probably placed there "innocently" by Palpatine), to be used only in the (unlikely) event of an attempted Jedi coup. But again, this isn't explained in the film.

[Metahive]

Oh I agree it was handled badly, but that doesn't make it some how inconsistent or anything. For the lay person of the Galaxy, the Clone Wars were one group of citizens fighting and rebelling against corruption in the Federal government, aided by large corporate interests that were being saddled unfairly with taxes. Dooku, seen as a principled ex-Jedi, led it against the corrupt Senate and corrupt Jedi he'd left.

Considering that said corporate interest were largely responsible for the corruption and their whole conduct during the war implying outright sociopathic amorality worthy of Captain Planet villains they must have had a hell of a PR team to spin it that way. Maybe an episode of the new Clone War series will concentrate on the propaganda war? Would be definitely worth it.

Really, it was an elegant Jedi trap as described in RotS. Dooku was a fall guy, as were the corporate interests. But to the lay person of the galaxy, Dooku having put together an army a decade ago for the Republic and then turning around and leaving the Republic due to perceptions of corruption and then ironically fighting against the very army he helped bring about is not that inconsistent.

Dooku implicated the deceased Master Syfo-Dias with the creation of the Clone Army and sent the "template", Jango Fett, under his Sith name, Tyranus. Which I think the Jedi never figured out, at least they never call him by that name any time they face him. Did anyone ever manage to pin the creation of the clone army on him?

[Knife]

Dooku implicated the deceased Master Syfo-Dias with the creation of the Clone Army and sent the "template", Jango Fett, under his Sith name, Tyranus. Which I think the Jedi never figured out, at least they never call him by that name any time they face him. Did anyone ever manage to pin the creation of the clone army on him?

Yeah, the only thing they have is Jango saying he was recruited by a man named Tyrannus, so not much to go with. Now if Jango said, a man named Darth Tyrannus, then it would probably make the Jedi raise an eyebrow. But in the end, Tyrannus doesn't lead to any obvious assumptions, Sifo could have himself recruited some random guy to hunt down a template for the clones for all we or the galactic lay people know.

I believe there is some sort of EU out there that says Sifo did order the army, then Dooku killed him but I don't know. The movie strongly suggests that Dooku did it after he killed Sifo and left the Jedi Order, but doesn't come out and just say it.

[Channel72]

I've seen some complaints about the movie that the Jedi seemed stupid for accepting an army seemingly created by their enemies, which has been brought up in this thread and others. But despite the Jango Fett stuff (which is confusing and requires thought to rationalize), how logical a guess is that? What kind of conspiracist creates an army for the other side, to kick his own ass with? If the clones were a sinister Separatist plot, then why would they tell the Kaminoans that the clones were for the Republic, thus ensuring that they deliver it to the Republic (it's a lot harder to deliver an entire army to the wrong person, than it is to accept an order from the wrong person)?

The idea here is not that the Jedi should have concluded the clone army was created by the Separatists. Rather, the way the final script is written, the evidence available to the Jedi should have suggested some sort of larger Sith conspiracy involving the clones. That is, the Jedi knew that Jango was the clone template, and that he was also working for Dooku, who not only works as the leader of their enemies (the Separatists), but also later reveals himself to be a Sith lord.

So I'm not saying that the Jedi should have suspected that the Separatists made the clones (inexplicably placing the order for the Republic); I'm saying the facts that 1) Jango was involved on both sides, 2) Jango works for a Sith who also happens to lead the Separatists, and 3) the Sith just recently reappeared after 1,000 years, together should have led the Jedi to realize that some sort of larger Sith conspiracy was underway, somehow involving the clones. This should have made them very reluctant to use the clone army.

Again, all of this could have been solved if the script simply provided the Jedi with reason to believe that the clones were created by some pro-Republic war-monger.

[Darth Fanboy]

I believe there is some sort of EU out there that says Sifo did order the army, then Dooku killed him but I don't know. The movie strongly suggests that Dooku did it after he killed Sifo and left the Jedi Order, but doesn't come out and just say it.

Sorry to resurrect the older thread but I wanted to confirm this. It's in Labyrinth of Evil where Dooku recalls how he was ordered to kill Sifo Dyas but let the order for the army stand so that it could be used at a later time.