Clanners on Pandora

[Purple]

On a related note, why did the humans simply not genocide the Navi in the first place instead going the whole procedure of:
Dump a bunch of propped up security guards with weapons specifically designed to fall to stone age weaponry and eventually lose?

[Sarevok]

More seriously, the option of orbital bombardment by asteroids was always silly. And while Earth can probably be induced over their sucky FTL comm to realign the uber laser that pushes the ISVs' sails and make it BDZ Pandora, that does not really help them.

For dealing with local wildlife and Navi ? You dont need orbital firepower. Just building some sensible defense around the RDA base would have kept the Navi away till they decided to progress to gunpowder age.

But the clans are from the Battletech universe. They will effortlessly overwhelm RDAs limited numbers of useless ground forces. Use of orbital bombardment is the only option the RDA has.

[Shroom Man 777]

The point is any plain old TOW or Hellfire missile would have worked perfectly right inside the flux vortexes. Why would RDA opt for a missile that malfunctions instead ? Its either sheer incompetence or intentionally making their gunships from becoming immune to the Navi and local wildlife.

Also, how well would IR missiles work on creatures with body temperatures nowhere near that of jet exhaust heat? Can IR missiles lock on to birds or warm-blooded mammalianoids, for example?

Seekers that only home into hot spots are ancient. Imaging infrared seekers would work perfectly against living creatures.

How easy is it to lock laser-guided missiles on fast moving dragonoids flying very close by?

The British Starstreak is a laser guided SAM that can hit supersonic jets. Now Hellfire missiles are not designed for this role but even they should manage. The hellfire has been used against a Cessena once. Regarding tracking the creature automatic target tracking is common feature these days.

Uh, the fucking dragonoids are within a hundred meters (probably less) from the VTOLs. Are they even within the minimal engagement range? These dragonoids are also maneuvering and doing stuff that might make acquisition by TOW difficult. It is considerably easier to aim a MANPAD at a far away airplane, even if it is supersonic, than it is at hundreds of dragonoids in a furball all around you.

Easy question for you :

You have limited amount of material you can transport to guard civilians on a planet of hostile creatures. For whatever reasons you have to bring death dealing pseudo military gear. So what would you bring ? Shit that wont even work in local conditions ?

The guns worked perfectly in killing the fuck out of the monsters in the flux vortex. The missiles can do it outside of the vortex. What's the problem? Turns out missiles don't work well with electronic interference, and when the enemy is within the minimum range of engagement, and when the enemy's riding maneuvering creature-vehicles.

Perhaps you are right. My info on the Venture star came from the Pandorapedia website. Maybe they got something wrong. I got the official Avatar videogame lying around my room waiting to be played. It has an ingame encyclopedia with lots of details. I will get back to you if I find anything.

Sure, go ahead. Still, it didn't look like Sully had to wait for years for the next ISV to take him to home. The same for those POWs after the big epic fight. Unless, after the credits, like all those RDA employees had to stew in Vietna'vi tiger cages for years while they waited for the next ISV to arrive. But that's also cool.

Its actually antimatter powered on the return trip. While traveling from Earth it uses laser sails. Its a nice concept other than the movie giving it impossibly higher speeds that what it should be capable of.

Ah. Laser sails?

We don't know how space travel worked before unobtainium. Maybe Avatar 2 will show a prologue about how humans first reached Pandora.

Either way, they have unobtanium reserves. And unobtanium isn't fuel. It's superconductors. Unless they need to build a new ISV (and they can use reserves for that), the other ISVs won't be hampered by any fuel concerns or whatever. They can just haul new supplies to the site.



Another idea I had. Since this was "years" before the events of Avatar, maybe with Sigourney Grace Ripley being on good terms with the Vietna'vi, and with the RDA's fabrication units, perhaps they could arm the Na'vi and let them fight a guerrilla war against the Klansmen.

Still. Unless the ISV torches the planet, I think the Klansmen could win this senareo through sheer number of infantry alone. Those 500 infantry whatevers outnumber the entire human populace of Pandora, probably. Give them reasonable kit, they can probably kill everyone and everything.

On a related note, why did the humans simply not genocide the Navi in the first place instead going the whole procedure of:
Dump a bunch of propped up security guards with weapons specifically designed to fall to stone age weaponry and eventually lose?

On a related note, why did the Africans simply not genocide the African tribe pygmies in the first place instead of going the whole procedure of blah blah blah?

Selfridge mentioned PR concerns in the movie. Presumably the Space Environmental Protection Agency would have RDA's ass if they fucked around?

[Swindle1984]

The Elementals alone could win this. They have armor that can survive a hit from anti-tank weapons, jump jets, an antipersonnel machine gun in one arm (which isn't used in the board game, but is used in the novels and RPG.), a pair of short-range anti-armor missiles, and for their primary weapon a laser, 20mm machine gun, or flamethrower. And they're strong enough to tear off armor plates on tanks and battlemechs.

If the OP felt really sadistic, he could toss in a handful of Gnomes or Salamanders instead of the Elementals.

Shit, the Clan infantry could probably win this through sheer numbers and heavier weapons. They've got body armor like the rent-a-cops on Pandora, but in addition to assault rifles they have laser rifles, anti-tank rocket launchers, flamethrowers, heavy machine guns, and more. The only way they could lose is if the VTOL's get airborne first, and they run out of rockets before they can down them all.

[Darth Hoth]

On a related note, why did the humans simply not genocide the Navi in the first place instead going the whole procedure of:
Dump a bunch of propped up security guards with weapons specifically designed to fall to stone age weaponry and eventually lose?

Supposedly, public relations issues. Same as for why they made a hugely expensive program of biotech, quantom and psionics just to keep the Space Indians happy. Supposedly, the same was also the reason why the ground crews could not have any mortars or MGs to match the mechs and dual-rotor helicopters. (Add or not, as you see fit.)

Although extermination is obviously unnecessary in any case, at least in the short term. Just equip your military halfway decently and they can deal with whatever shit they can cook up. Wiping the first sentient aliens ever encountered out just to be safe might be the safe bet, but would probably be politically impossible, and certainly not the first option. Especially when they are pseudo-sexy blue elves/cat-people who live in haaarmony with nature.

For dealing with local wildlife and Navi ? You dont need orbital firepower. Just building some sensible defense around the RDA base would have kept the Navi away till they decided to progress to gunpowder age..

Yes, obviously. Hell, how would Zheik Suh-Lee even keep his army together in the first place? Keep it supplied? Keep it from getting decimated by plague like our own still were in the Crimean War and beyond? If Quaritch had just waited, it would have gone away by its own accord.

[Darth Hoth]

Maybe it was another ISV, sure. Or maybe that same ISV that brought him in was lingering for a while, bumming about while refueling and loading up on unobtanium while doing weeks-long preflights and preparations for another extended return run back to home/Earth.

Either way, the point is that ISVs aren't that rare and one can readily be available to blow up the Klansmen.

I rather doubt that the RDA would want to throw away one of their uber expensive starships on a kamikaze strike, though. It would in all likelihood be cheaper to wait for Earth to send reinforcements.

If what you said about the anti-matter space station is true, then they can just do some shit and jerry-rig a fucking photon torpedo to chuck at the Klansmen.

I believe it is in the online Pandorapedia. It is, in any case, explicitly stated that the ship only has fuel enough to decelerate on arrival; logically it must be refuelled there, and doubly so, since Pandora does not have a multi-megaton-per-second laser array to push its sails back home.

And your point is valid, of course; I suppose that is yet another plot hole that Pellegrino's "realistic" spaceship design introduces.

I'm just saying that those ISV-kamikaze and asteroid shits were mentioned at the old Avatar thread, like where the milwankers stroked themselves with MiG-36 Facemakers until their cocks grew neutronium callouses. Whilst pissing other people off over their dickless genocidal tendencies. Yet now, when faced with gundamechanimus, the options these fucking pussies talked about using on hippie space cats become unusable on the gundamechanimumangoes due to some limp impotent excuses. Excuses! How do we get any results from these excuses? What a bunch of worms! Where the fuck are your fucking graphs? Pussies!

Though I did not participate in thread in question, you do know that I, too, am a dickless xenocide-wanker, right? Onwards with the B-36s, FW-190s, MG-34s and T-34/85s!

I'm just saying that their points can be easily mocked. And that I relish in doing so, in my special way. Hey, if others prefer to call the other side a bunch of "cocknozzle douchedonkey retardoshit fuckpamer" or whatever, then I guess I'm doing the same with my styles.

Well, feel free to, but it does lend a certain . . . opacity to your posts, so to speak.

[Shroom Man 777]

I rather doubt that the RDA would want to throw away one of their uber expensive starships on a kamikaze strike, though. It would in all likelihood be cheaper to wait for Earth to send reinforcements.

This is a Versus Debate. No expense must be spared in the annihilation of the enemy! Until the last irradiated survivor of the Klansmen concedes, the RDA will keep on dropping relativistic RDAs at Pandora until those motherfuckers concede! QED BITCH!

I believe it is in the online Pandorapedia. It is, in any case, explicitly stated that the ship only has fuel enough to decelerate on arrival; logically it must be refuelled there, and doubly so, since Pandora does not have a multi-megaton-per-second laser array to push its sails back home.

And your point is valid, of course; I suppose that is yet another plot hole that Pellegrino's "realistic" spaceship design introduces.

Is that the Pandorapedia where shits write about Dr. Lovecraft and fuck? If so, fuck that shit. Those aren't even internet fatties. Those are Jabbas.

Though I did not participate in thread in question, you do know that I, too, am a dickless xenocide-wanker, right? Onwards with the B-36s, FW-190s, MG-34s and T-34/85s!

Urgh! Urgh! With the on-site fabrication facilities, they can probably easily make primitive tankskis! Even a WWI-era Mark I tank would be more than a match for any fucking mecha scum. Urgh!

Well, feel free to, but it does lend a certain . . . opacity to your posts, so to speak.

I dunno. I'm just ridiculing easily ridiculable bits of other people's posts.

[NecronLord]

Yes, obviously. Hell, how would Zheik Suh-Lee even keep his army together in the first place? Keep it supplied? Keep it from getting decimated by plague like our own still were in the Crimean War and beyond? If Quaritch had just waited, it would have gone away by its own accord.

Plague is not an issue. If the original treatment is to believed as at all representative of the end product, there is no disease on Pandora. None, nil, ziltch nada. Not even a cold. The worldmind decants antidotes in the food chain to anything that crops up, and even did so automatically for the humans upon arrival. It's not in the film as published, mind, but I would say it at least demonstrates the thinking.

As for keeping them supplied; he has an air force. I seriously doubt the Na'vi have not worked out some way to harness loads onto those Banshees. Of which they have many, certainly hundreds. This would give him a level of transport capacity pre-TwenCen generals could only envy.

[Zor]

ns. They've got body armor like the rent-a-cops on Pandora, but in addition to assault rifles they have laser rifles, anti-tank rocket launchers, flamethrowers, heavy machine guns, and more.

Actually, the RDA forces have those as well (save for the Laser Rifles and rocket launchers) as well as things like Swans and 30mm automated defense turrets.

Some Information

Zor

[LionElJonson]

I know that Battletech technology is ridiculously durable, but wouldn't the electromagnetic fields play merry hell with the electronics used by the Clan battle armours and mechs? Worst case scenario is that they wind up causing the myomers they use for locomotion to go into seizures while disabling their ejection seats, and they wind up destroying themselves and killing their pilots.

[Sarevok]

I know that Battletech technology is ridiculously durable, but wouldn't the electromagnetic fields play merry hell with the electronics used by the Clan battle armours and mechs? Worst case scenario is that they wind up causing the myomers they use for locomotion to go into seizures while disabling their ejection seats, and they wind up destroying themselves and killing their pilots.

The magic flux vortexes only affect radar. And BTech ground forces are equipped and trained to fight without radar assistance. Most Mechs and vehicles can aim and shoot their weapons without seeing the target on radar. Put simply Mechwarriors wont feel anything odd about Pandora. The radar interference will be a natural source of jamming. But the mechwarriors are already used to intense electronic warfare attacks.

[LionElJonson]

I know that Battletech technology is ridiculously durable, but wouldn't the electromagnetic fields play merry hell with the electronics used by the Clan battle armours and mechs? Worst case scenario is that they wind up causing the myomers they use for locomotion to go into seizures while disabling their ejection seats, and they wind up destroying themselves and killing their pilots.

The magic flux vortexes only affect radar. And BTech ground forces are equipped and trained to fight without radar assistance. Most Mechs and vehicles can aim and shoot their weapons without seeing the target on radar. Put simply Mechwarriors wont feel anything odd about Pandora. The radar interference will be a natural source of jamming. But the mechwarriors are already used to intense electronic warfare attacks.

Didn't someone mention that they'd made the screens start displaying electrical noise? If it just disabled the radar, it probably wouldn't have done that; rather than getting static on the screen, it simply wouldn't have displayed anything.

[Sarevok]

Probably RDA radar being shitty to begin with. Bear in mind radio, sophisticated AVATAR equipment, mechs (which would fall without active control adjustments by a computer) all worked perfectly.

That said I must point out one of the most common heavy weapons in battletech is particle beam weapons like the PPC. Battlemechs are hardened to withstand its effects. In the Mechwarrior sim games intense PPC fire can cause your HUD and radar to flick but your mech is still combat effective. If being hit by artificial lightning does not fuck a mechs electronics nothing on Pandora will.

[Shroom Man 777]

God damn it, Sarevokerritch. Just because Michelle Vasquez Rodriguez just mentioned radar doesn't mean it doesn't affect other shit. I mean, if I say "nuclear weapons in high atmosphere will disable electronics via EMP" does that mean that the only effects of nuclear weapons are EMP, and that thermal effects or blastwaves are non-existent lol?

hai i am sarevok, cuz michelle rodriguez only said 'radar' so this must mean weirdo technobabble effects that can levitate fucking mountains into the sky only affect radar and absolutely nothing else because i say so, even though the mere act of suspending millions of tons of rocks into the air might, i dunno, have some gravitic or magnetic or pyrotechnic or colonic or digestive side-effects but I won't consider this at all because I am obtuse so it is obviously radar only lol

EDIT:

In layman's terms: Because LEVITATING FUCKING MOUNTAINS is only an effect on radar am i rite?

[Sarevok]

God damn it, Sarevokerritch. Just because Michelle Vasquez Rodriguez just mentioned radar doesn't mean it doesn't affect other shit. I mean, if I say "nuclear weapons in high atmosphere will disable electronics via EMP" does that mean that the only effects of nuclear weapons are EMP, and that thermal effects or blastwaves are non-existent lol?

hai i am sarevok, cuz michelle rodriguez only said 'radar' so this must mean weirdo technobabble effects that can levitate fucking mountains into the sky only affect radar and absolutely nothing else because i say so, even though the mere act of suspending millions of tons of rocks into the air might, i dunno, have some gravitic or magnetic or pyrotechnic or colonic or digestive side-effects but I won't consider this at all because I am obtuse so it is obviously radar only lol

EDIT:

In layman's terms: Because LEVITATING FUCKING MOUNTAINS is only an effect on radar am i rite?

Dude if other electronics was affected explain how radio worked ? Or how the VTOLs or mechs functioned - those things require active computer control to stay stable. Or the mobile base station the rebels put right on top of a fucking floating mountain.

[Shroom Man 777]

Who knows? Who cares? Radar might be more sensitive to flux vortex weirdo-isms than avionics? They might've been able to do some work-arounds to make the avionics work despite the interference, but not the radar? Maybe their radios could go through the flux vortexes despite the jamming? Or maybe radio also got fucked, and they could only radio-communicate within short distances, like how the VTOLs were so close to each other in the final fight. Or maybe they used laser links or whatever. Who knows? Maybe the radars the RDA used weren't military grade, but civilian shit. Why would security companies need the latest passive aggressive electronic phased arrays, anyway? It's not like Pandoran creatures have carapaces made out of RAM or whatever. If you complain about RDA having shitty off-the-shelf radars, you might as well also blubber about why Blackwater helicopters don't mount AN/SPQSDN-69er bis X-band short/long/fatwave radars used by MiG-36 Facemakers too. If you were a company executive, why would you buy expensive military-grade unjammable radar for your rent-a-cops anyway? Would they need that to kill space dinosaurs? No. Would they encounter enemy ECM? No. Oh, there are flux vortexes? Well, it would be cheaper to tell the VTOLs to avoid the flux vortexes than to equip the VTOLs with passive-aggressive radar arrays, am i rite? Having them avoid flux vortexes also saves on fuel costs.

As for the AVATAR tech, the ability to transfer a complete consciousness into another body is basically a magitech plot device and I'm not fat enough to bother with how or why it avoids interference from flux vortexes. To complain about that would first require you knowing how that tech works in the first place.

[Sarevok]

In other words nothing would happen to clan battlemechs or anything else designed by half way competent people. At worst they get slight radar interference.

[Shroom Man 777]

Why? Because you say so? In other words, Sarevok handwaves away the effects of weirdo electromagnetic-whatever phenomenon that can lift fucking mountains into the sky. Okay.

The ISV still blows up Pandora. The Klansmen lose.

And they're not halfway competent people. If they were, then those clan battlemechs would have tracks.

[Sarevok]

No because observed evidence states so.

1 ) Everything other than radar worked for RDA.

2) Clan hardware is already hardened against electronics failures from EMP, particle beams etc. Directed energy weapons of various types are second most common type of weapon in Battletech universe. All mechs have built in protection to prevent their solid state electronics being overwhelmed by interference.

3) Jamming in Battletech universe is so effective the same weapon when mounted on an Aerospace fighter can have ten times the mech mounted range. Mechs fighting on ground generally don't even rely on radar. Only specialized designs like the Raven carry radars good enough to be worthwhile in a fight. Clanners can fight well with just thermal imaging and bit of zooming.

[Shroom Man 777]

Be that as it may, they can still defeat the RDA's forces on Pandora through sheer mass of infantry alone - their troops outnumber the total human population there.

But then the ISV fries them from space. The end.

Whoops.

EDIT:

Why the fuck would they be anywhere near the flux vortex anyway? That has hardly anything to do with this versus debate. RDA guys normally don't go anywhere near the vortexes.

[Sarevok]

Yeah the ISV is pretty much a "Fuck you I win" button for RDA.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah the ISV is pretty much a "Fuck you I win" button for RDA.

The hippies might protest at it and the RDA might not use it though. Then just like the Vietna'vi, the Klansmen win because the limp-dicked liberal democratic fuckpieces and all those cocksucking hippies made public support fuck the RDA in the ass! Fuck'em!

Earth might send in militaries later, with superior firepower that defeats those stupid gundamechanimumangoes because they use treads instead of stupid mecha legs, and after their victory they can put the BTech Klansmen in a fucking Space Indian Reservation together with those goddamn Na'vi. Hey, the BTech Klansmen might be the best thing ever for Avatar Earth, since it gives them pretext to launch military ops on Pandora and not just rely on RDA security guards! After subduing the Klansmen, they can then use the pretext of freedomization to further humanity's grip on that planet. The Na'vi wage guerrilla war? Eywa itself sends animal attacks? Well, the military can just say that they are doing terrorist actions to support the Klansmen, and then get authorization to use Agent Orange! In Space! Agent Orangutan! Yes!

Say Sarevokerritch, you know a lot about Klansmen gundamechanimumangoes. So, if we make a Trail of Tears in Space, and let the mechas use their stupid legs and do a death march for hundreds of miles, how far should they death march before their leg hydraulics and servos break down? Would it take them longer to break down than for the Klansmen infantry to die of exhaustion after walking so far through horrible terrain? You also have pandorapedia link sauces. So, in your opinion, would the mechas break down from walking, and the Klansmen infantry die from dehydration, before or after the Na'vi's bodies break down and they die after the prolonged marching?

To appease the anime fans, we can have the Earth force led by a UN that is dominated by Space Japanese. This will also make the death march of the BTech Klansmen and Na'vi all the more historically relevant. We can make the Klansmen out to be Americans, and the Na'vi to be Filipinos. The Space Japanese-led UN then enslave the Na'vi chicks to be concubines and rape them. Then through historical revisionism, the textbooks will mention nothing of this and a few years later, Western weeabos can be all fascinated about their awesome mysterious culture and noble traditions of bullshitdo or whatever.

[Sarevok]

Mang Cameron should hurry up and release Avatar 2 already. It supposedly takes place in the sea and I cant wait to make fun of RDAs glass canopied attack submarines.

[Shroom Man 777]

If the submarines use propellers to control their ascent or descent into the sea, you should also bitch about the stupidity of using underwater VTOLs.

[Darth Hoth]

Plague is not an issue. If the original treatment is to believed as at all representative of the end product, there is no disease on Pandora. None, nil, ziltch nada. Not even a cold. The worldmind decants antidotes in the food chain to anything that crops up, and even did so automatically for the humans upon arrival. It's not in the film as published, mind, but I would say it at least demonstrates the thinking.

Is that in some Tech Manual or something? I saw no mention of it when I gleaned through the online script.

As for keeping them supplied; he has an air force. I seriously doubt the Na'vi have not worked out some way to harness loads onto those Banshees. Of which they have many, certainly hundreds. This would give him a level of transport capacity pre-TwenCen generals could only envy.

He is still limited to hunter-gatherers to amass the foodstuffs in the first place, though, and has (as far as we know) no access to real conservation techniques. And even if he has the technical ability to pull it off, just organising the logistics of keeping thousands of warriors in the same place fed every day should be far beyond what either he or the Na'vi can devise.