Earth in the 2nd to 30th Millenium (40k)

[Simon_Jester]

Semi off topic: IDK much about 40K, but is the Imperium or whatever they call themselves the good guys or the bad guys?

Good question.

In any other universe they would be the bad guys. They are the most totalitarian, brutal, stagnant society that can be imagined. Living in the Imperium sucks for most of its inhabitants. On the other hand, it's better than gradually turning into a mindless gibbering mutant and then being eaten alive by a demon. Or being tortured to death over a period of years by highly professional beings with millenia of experience at torturing people before they eat your soul in order to avoid being eaten by demons. Or just having your head ripped off by an ork because he was bored. Or... well, you get the idea.

Whether the Imperium is good or bad depends entirely on whether you believe that "less bad" is equivalent to "more good."

And once they take over, they'll allow you to join up or continue living your normal life. Except that they've sterilized your entire population so that in a generation or two, it won't matter anyways.

I am personally a bit unclear on this. There are still references to humans fighting on the Tau side and such, which strongly suggests the existence of human breeding populations among the Tau.

That said, they are still "less bad" than, say, the Dark Eldar. Or Chaos.

[OmegaChief]

In any other universe they would be the bad guys.

It's probably worth noting that the Tau would fit the role of bad guy if you put them in a regular sci fi universe, gotta love 40K for that.

I am personally a bit unclear on this. There are still references to humans fighting on the Tau side and such, which strongly suggests the existence of human breeding populations among the Tau.

It's worth noting we only have this from one source of dybious level canon, adn even then it wasa rebellious world that had re-embraced Imperial doctrine once the Tau hold was weakened.

And if I recall right the ending narratoion whih mentions the sterilisation presentis it as one of several possibley options for the demographic switch, so we've got a dbious souce throwing guessess around at that, so I'm going to hold reasonable doubt on that for now.

[Connor MacLeod]

This isn't Star Wars. The factions involved don't as a rule have to be wholly "good" guys or "bad" guys. Like in real life you can find assholes and saints in a single country, organzation, government, what have you. The same is true in 40K (which I tend to view more often as America 40K. Just instead of corporations and political parties you have the various crazies running the Imperium and there are far less chainsaw swords.)

Hell its debatable whether you could say the Necrons are bad guys except in a relative sense. They're actually kind of amoral if a bit cold and sadistic, and the 'Crons are freaking robots. And evne Chaos has its "good" guys (sort of.)

[Connor MacLeod]

And we come to the Orks. A current Ork Codex map shows Ork Waaghs raging throughout the galaxy. Their numbers are vast. Yet in the distant past not a peep. Why didn't an Ork Waagh descend on poor hapless Earth in the 21st century? In Medieval times even? Where were the Orks?

We don't know, and frankly I think its presumptuous to think that the Orks were always as large or numerous as they are now. Alot of the factors driving Ork growth or expansion i sthe presence or absence of conflict. Back in the era you're talking there was not massive galaxy-spanning Empire which the Orks could test themselves against (YEs there were the Eldar but there's just some question to HOW vast they were. Its possible humanity was quite a bit larger.) Without anyone decent to fight the Orks are likely to turn upon themselves as anyone else.

According to most histories or chronologies they didnt start running into Orks until tens of thousands of years ago (probably around the 18th Millenium IIRC) and that was the time the humans started expanding across the galaxy. I'm also pretty sure its been mentioned before in my analysis that the Orks LOVE Humans, they're one of the best alien races they've come across to fight. And fighting the Humans for tens of thousands of years is bound to give a boost to Ork expansion and drive to win.

It's also quite possible they just didn't have access to warp drive then. Remember that Orks are more prone to looting and modifying vessels than they are of building their own by conventional means. Earlier fluff had their only means of travel being via space hulks, and given how retcons work its quite possible that Early Orks were in fact limited to this form of warp travel until they started encountering more FTL-capable races.

Then there is Chaos. Current fluff makes it seem like Chaos is banging down the front door of the Imperium. You can't throw a stone and not hit three psykers who are channelling some sort of demon threat. Yet not a peep out of Chaos during such dark times as the Mongol Invasions, WWI, WWII, Black Death. The current Chaos Space Marine Codex does make mention of a demon Prince who was creeping around on Earth since medival times but that's the only mention

Psykers didn't start cropping up in great numbers til the 18th millenium or so again (sometime in the DAoT as I remember) as did Navigators. Hell humans hadn't even started mucking about with warp travel yet. They aren't likely to be noticed or influenced by Chaos until their connections to the warp strengthen. The growth of psyker activity was in fact one of the contributing factors to the AGe of Strife.

I'm pretty sure the growing birth of slaanesh had an influence on things too, but barring that some sort of human deity/Power in the warp is likely to have existed as long as humans have, even before it manifested in the form of the Emperor.

In essence I'm asking why Earth was relatively sheltered from all of these potential threats until they started the Great Crusade?

There's millions of inhabited planets in the galaxy, possibly billions (if the Eldar or Old Ones did a great deal of terraforming) and Earth is just one of countless types. Even with huge numbers of Orks their method of warp travel is haphazard at best, and I'd say the odds of just stumbling on Earth are pretty damn high.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Most of the questions have already been answered, but one thing I don't think I saw mentioned:

Humanity was not a particularly psychic race until the Age of Strife. Its defining events were a massive increase in warp storms, and more relevantly, a massive increase in psychic activity among human populations. Part of the reason it's called the Age of Strife is because mankind had absolutely no idea how to deal with daemons suddenly popping out of people's heads beyond "Oh shi-".

Hence, Chaos and the Warp were not quite as relevant to humanity prior to M28 or so. I have also heard it speculated that certain events in human history helped give rise to then-nascent Chaos Gods, such as the Black Death and Nurgle, but I know of no official material directly confirming this.

Edit: beat by Connor, ha

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Hell its debatable whether you could say the Necrons are bad guys except in a relative sense. They're actually kind of amoral if a bit cold and sadistic, and the 'Crons are freaking robots. And evne Chaos has its "good" guys (sort of.)

To add to this, I'd argue that the "least evil" of all the myriad 40k factions are the Orks. They're kind of like dumb puppies whose response to nuclear armageddon is, "Oi, dat's some good blasta! Let's do it again!"

[Simon_Jester]

In pre-space human history, humanity was a very small population relative to other intelligent species. And I don't just mean the eldar; I'm talking about the host of "minor" alien races who barely merit a mention in the fluff on a galactic scale, who don't get their own codex, and who are at most operating on the scale of the Tau or less. There are quite a few intelligent races that do develop their own limited interstellar travel, a number of which interact with the warp, and back in the old days of human history those other species were just as "important" in cosmic terms as humanity. So we shouldn't be surprised that a bunch of iron age primitives on one world escaped notice.

In any other universe they would be the bad guys.

It's probably worth noting that the Tau would fit the role of bad guy if you put them in a regular sci fi universe, gotta love 40K for that.

Well, the Tau aren't much better than the Imperium if you're not a member of them. The most notable difference is that they have, historically, assimilated a number of alien species into their empire. Whatever their policies toward humans, they haven't exterminated the kroot, the vespids, and so on.

As for orks, they have the least sheer personal malice... but from a utilitarian standpoint they're an utter disaster for galactic civilization as a whole, because of the damage they do to the more organized races in the struggle to bring things back under control.

[Lord Relvenous]

Hell its debatable whether you could say the Necrons are bad guys except in a relative sense. They're actually kind of amoral if a bit cold and sadistic, and the 'Crons are freaking robots. And evne Chaos has its "good" guys (sort of.)

To add to this, I'd argue that the "least evil" of all the myriad 40k factions are the Orks. They're kind of like dumb puppies whose response to nuclear armageddon is, "Oi, dat's some good blasta! Let's do it again!"

Plus, all they want to do is fight. They don't fight for greed or political ideology. They just want to fight. It's not their fault our weak frames can't handle their idea of a good time when they come to town.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Weren't the Eldar so powerful they considered the Orks to be a NUISSANCE? Like 'Ho hum, gotta go wipe out twenty ork worlds and then head home for dinner'.

[andrewgpaul]

From page 185 of the Rogue Trader rulebook;

"The savage race known as Orks, and their underling slave-race of Gretchin, were probably the first extra-terrestrial civilisation encountered by humanity (quite when, no-one remembers). People say on their first meeting Man and Ork exchanged a long, hard lokk, didn't much care for what they saw, and began the long interstellar conflict that has gone on ever since." At that time, Ork space was considered to be a reasonably compact are, between Earth and the galactic core.

As for Chaos, Realm of Chaos; The Lost and the Damned says "Khorne was the first of the Great Powers to wake fully, and an era of wars and conflict raged across the globe. Tzeentch was next, and nations and politics grew to adulthood with all of their implicit intrigues and double-dealings. Nurgle was the third to awake and plagues swept across continents claiming namy suls for the Lord of Decay. By the end of the Middle Ages all three of these Chaos Powers had awoken to full consciousness."

Feel free to speculate which historical periods are being referred to; I've always assumed Khorne awoke during the first Crusades, and Nurgle during the Black Death, but I've got nothing to back that up.

[Simon_Jester]

Weren't the Eldar so powerful they considered the Orks to be a NUISSANCE? Like 'Ho hum, gotta go wipe out twenty ork worlds and then head home for dinner'.

Well, if the Eldar were willing to glass ork worlds from orbit, and if this was before the widespread proliferation of warp-travelling humans gave the orks plenty of spaceships to loot, that might have been a lot easier then.

From page 185 of the Rogue Trader rulebook;

"The savage race known as Orks, and their underling slave-race of Gretchin, were probably the first extra-terrestrial civilisation encountered by humanity (quite when, no-one remembers). People say on their first meeting Man and Ork exchanged a long, hard lokk, didn't much care for what they saw, and began the long interstellar conflict that has gone on ever since." At that time, Ork space was considered to be a reasonably compact are, between Earth and the galactic core.

By now, much of the Rogue Trader backstory is... painfully out of date compared to the new fluff, so I'm a bit skeptical of this.

As for Chaos, Realm of Chaos; The Lost and the Damned says "Khorne was the first of the Great Powers to wake fully, and an era of wars and conflict raged across the globe. Tzeentch was next, and nations and politics grew to adulthood with all of their implicit intrigues and double-dealings. Nurgle was the third to awake and plagues swept across continents claiming namy suls for the Lord of Decay. By the end of the Middle Ages all three of these Chaos Powers had awoken to full consciousness."

Feel free to speculate which historical periods are being referred to; I've always assumed Khorne awoke during the first Crusades, and Nurgle during the Black Death, but I've got nothing to back that up.

The Crusades weren't all that violent a period globally; the Crusaders were a relatively minor regional problem, in hindsight. Very bad if you lived in the area they were attacking, but they weren't a "world war" or anything like that.

Also, I'm a bit skeptical of the level of humanocentrism that implies- that the Chaos Gods' existence was tied to humanity specifically, and that no other intelligent species had enough emotion and Warp presence to spawn such deities.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Also, I'm a bit skeptical of the level of humanocentrism that implies- that the Chaos Gods' existence was tied to humanity specifically, and that no other intelligent species had enough emotion and Warp presence to spawn such deities.

Humanity has a lot of psychic potential. Individually, Eldar psykers are generally more powerful because they've honed their skills and technology for thousands and thousands of years, but in terms of raw, untapped power humans have them beat. Even Joe Schmoe is relatively high on the "psychic alphabet", stopping just shy of manifesting tangible powers in most cases. The higher on the psychic scale, the greater the connection to the Warp, hence the Tau having virtually no effect on it at all, while humans frequently interact with it.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, but surely we can't be the only ones? There are supposed to be a lot of intelligent races in the galaxy, and there'd be many, many more if it weren't for humanity's empire destroying so many.

I doubt that humanity on only one planet would have more effect on Chaos than the combined psychic influence of the entire rest of the galaxy, in other words.

[OmegaChief]

I'm fairly sure it's mentioned in canon that Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch have been active since/were created during the war between the Necrons and Old Ones.

Unless canon has been changed since I last checked that particular part of it.

[Ghost Rider]

Yes, but surely we can't be the only ones? There are supposed to be a lot of intelligent races in the galaxy, and there'd be many, many more if it weren't for humanity's empire destroying so many.

I doubt that humanity on only one planet would have more effect on Chaos than the combined psychic influence of the entire rest of the galaxy, in other words.

Then you should try finding the evidence of such. Games Workshop has declared by author fiat, and by their writing that MAN is pretty much numero uno on the psychic power list. We are Chaos' number target, our oversized lust for war and what not gave the first seeds to the Chaos gods, with only Slaanesh being produced by the Eldar's interstellar empire. Our psychic potential produced the Emperor of Man from said Shamans, and we make the Eldar look at us as the worst thing to have happened because if it all fucks over and fails, the newest Chaos god resulting from our fall would make the Four look like children and the Eye of Terror look like a minor stellar hiccup.

Sure, there's holes in what GW has said, but since they haven't changed it, navel gazing about it beyond "It sounds stupid" is entering the realm of bizarre fanfiction.

So yes, we are number 1.

And canon does state that so far Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch came about in M2, or our middle ages. Whether they will change this to go "Oh wait, they first came about when the fuckheaded Old Ones used the Immaterium against the C'tan" is pure speculation at best.

[fgalkin]

So, Khorne is not born from Khaine anymore? When did that get retconned? Did humans make an Eldar god get consumed by Chaos? Whaaa?

Anyways, the source for the claim that humanity birthed the Chaos gods has already been quoted earlier in the thread:

"Khorne was the first of the Great Powers to wake fully, and an era of wars and conflict raged across the globe. Tzeentch was next, and nations and politics grew to adulthood with all of their implicit intrigues and double-dealings. Nurgle was the third to awake and plagues swept across continents claiming namy suls for the Lord of Decay. By the end of the Middle Ages all three of these Chaos Powers had awoken to full consciousness."

Note the "And" bits. Khorne awoke, and there was war. Tzeentch awoke and there were intrigues. Nurgle awoke and there were plagues. It's pretty clear that the events of the middles ages were caused by the Chaos gods, not the other way around.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Bedlam]

From page 185 of the Rogue Trader rulebook;

"The savage race known as Orks, and their underling slave-race of Gretchin, were probably the first extra-terrestrial civilisation encountered by humanity (quite when, no-one remembers). People say on their first meeting Man and Ork exchanged a long, hard lokk, didn't much care for what they saw, and began the long interstellar conflict that has gone on ever since." At that time, Ork space was considered to be a reasonably compact are, between Earth and the galactic core.

As for Chaos, Realm of Chaos; The Lost and the Damned says "Khorne was the first of the Great Powers to wake fully, and an era of wars and conflict raged across the globe. Tzeentch was next, and nations and politics grew to adulthood with all of their implicit intrigues and double-dealings. Nurgle was the third to awake and plagues swept across continents claiming namy suls for the Lord of Decay. By the end of the Middle Ages all three of these Chaos Powers had awoken to full consciousness."

Feel free to speculate which historical periods are being referred to; I've always assumed Khorne awoke during the first Crusades, and Nurgle during the Black Death, but I've got nothing to back that up.

I've always rationalised this by thinking that the Great powers have to 'tune in' to each species as they develope. So there's been a Khorne for eons but he only developed a 'face' that is primarily aspected to Human war at that point. By 40K due to the number of humans around that aspect is primary but he still takes time to develope an aspect for other minor species as they evolve.

[Ghost Rider]

So, Khorne is not born from Khaine anymore? When did that get retconned?

I think somewhere around 3rd Edition. In fact Khorne wanted to enslave Khaine because when Slaanesh came to being...he went on a murderous rampage.

Did humans make an Eldar god get consumed by Chaos? Whaaa?

Go blame the buggers selling to much.

[NecronLord]

In the 40k rulebook there is a timeline describing events in human history up through the current 40th millenium. Of course the earliest stuff is foggy as to be expected but I noticed a distinct lack of contact with xenos races or Chaos during this time frame. It's almost as if none of the major antagonists of mankind decided to rear their heads until humanity had already established itself as a major power.

If you look at some of the fluff maps you will see that the Eye of Terror is in the same galactic arm as Terra and pretty much a figurative hop skip and a jump away. But wait Stravo, you say, the Eye of Terror was not created until the Eldar Fall so it shouldn't figure in earlier human history. You're correct but my point is related to what was there before the EoT which would be the very heart of the Eldar empire which in the fluff is stated to be a galactic spanning empire at the time and right before the Fall they were very much like the Dark Eldar - nasty, brutish and in it for pleasure. Why weren't they raiding puny little Earth right next door then?

Warp storms. The fall happened in the course of one Eldar generation according to the Liber Chaotica. Literally one generation before they were at the height of their morality and culture. It's literally like the Eldar version of the hippie/teabagger/whatever movement exploded their entire species. It's worth noting that the Eldar had trade with other races before the Fall and we saw one Eldar-influenced human settlement in Horus Rising.

And we come to the Orks. A current Ork Codex map shows Ork Waaghs raging throughout the galaxy. Their numbers are vast. Yet in the distant past not a peep. Why didn't an Ork Waagh descend on poor hapless Earth in the 21st century? In Medieval times even? Where were the Orks?

There are countless worlds without orks too. Path of the Warrior indicates that the Eldar Empire tried to exterminate them at some stage. It's likely that alone would have made them much rarer at the time.

Then there is Chaos. Current fluff makes it seem like Chaos is banging down the front door of the Imperium. You can't throw a stone and not hit three psykers who are channelling some sort of demon threat. Yet not a peep out of Chaos during such dark times as the Mongol Invasions, WWI, WWII, Black Death. The current Chaos Space Marine Codex does make mention of a demon Prince who was creeping around on Earth since medival times but that's the only mention

Praise the Emperor. He is our Shield and Protector.

[lordofchange13]

Well for the chaos one: the codexs exsplane it as that there was a group of shamans who protected the human race psionicly(they then died and became the emperor). plus tyzeench and Slaanesh weren't born untill the year 15k. as for the orks : they were keapet at bay by the eldar forces. untill the fall of man and eldar the orks were farly small in number.

[Junghalli]

Well, if the Eldar were willing to glass ork worlds from orbit, and if this was before the widespread proliferation of warp-travelling humans gave the orks plenty of spaceships to loot, that might have been a lot easier then.

Or if Pre-Fall the Eldar simply had good enough robotics that they could just throw giant hordes of combat robots at them to keep them busy. I remember hearing a suggestion along those lines once.

[Bedlam]

Well, if the Eldar were willing to glass ork worlds from orbit, and if this was before the widespread proliferation of warp-travelling humans gave the orks plenty of spaceships to loot, that might have been a lot easier then.

Or if Pre-Fall the Eldar simply had good enough robotics that they could just throw giant hordes of combat robots at them to keep them busy. I remember hearing a suggestion along those lines once.

It might work but as Orks tend to get more powerful and numerous the more risistance their face having a near unending wave of oponents might just make them stronger and stronger. Some more subtle or passive resistance might be more effective, Eldar might have have some method of dispercing Wargh energy or targetting potential leaders to stop the Orks for swarming.

[IvanTih]

Pre-fall Eldar could also create worlds and stars.There's one quote about that and they were practically immortal since they could reincarnate.

[lordofchange13]

Pre-fall Eldar could also create worlds and stars.There's one quote about that and they were practically immortal since they could reincarnate.

Eldar can't reincarnate. not even during the hight of there empire. you are probably thinking of the shamans on earth

[lordofchange13]

Well, if the Eldar were willing to glass ork worlds from orbit, and if this was before the widespread proliferation of warp-travelling humans gave the orks plenty of spaceships to loot, that might have been a lot easier then.

Or if Pre-Fall the Eldar simply had good enough robotics that they could just throw giant hordes of combat robots at them to keep them busy. I remember hearing a suggestion along those lines once.

It might work but as Orks tend to get more powerful and numerous the more risistance their face having a near unending wave of oponents might just make them stronger and stronger. Some more subtle or passive resistance might be more effective, Eldar might have have some method of dispercing Wargh energy or targetting potential leaders to stop the Orks for swarming.

they used farseer'sike nukes: the farseer could overload thre minds, plus there are D-cannons.