The last (or latest) word on Dolphin intelligence

[Lagmonster]

In 1999, a pair of scientists whose names I have entirely forgotten, declared that dolphins should be elevated to the status of "non-human persons", arguing that they were probably intelligent enough to qualify as self-aware individuals in the same sense that we are.

On the other hand, Paul Manger argued in 2007 that dolphin brains were large, but not well-organized in the sense that we would expect from a higher-intelligence organism.

On the other, other hand, there are...additional arguments against those arguments. Examinations of the size, composition, and organization of dolphin brains. Analyses of their behaviour (what we can - it's notoriously hard to properly study marine mammals since they live in, you know, open ocean).

Let's see if a bunch of nerds can hash it out. What are the most persuasive arguments and evidences, for and against, the idea of "elevating dolphins to the status of 'non-human persons' on the basis of their intelligence and self-awareness".

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

They ought to be accorded at least the same status we accord to the great apes. We know that dolphins in the wild have been observed using tools (sponges to protect their snouts while prodding the seafloor for food.) We also know that this is a regional thing among dolphins of a certain area, and that this behavior has been passed from mother to daughter. Meaning that dolphins have at least a level of culture identical to that observed in chimpanzees. (National Geographic article from 2005.) They also appear to display altruism that doesn't seem to be species-specific, and have a rich vocabulary of vocalizations and gestures used in social communication.

[Temujin]

They are one of only a few animals species that have passed the mirror test indicating self awareness.

But I think we can not expect a creature that lives in an entirely different medium to have it's brain structured along human lines and human thinking, anymore than we would expect it from and alien life form. Better to just acknowledge the existence of higher intelligence and treat the animal accordingly. Although we as a species really need to start treating all other lifeforms on this planet better than we have been.

[Sarevok]

What diffference does it make to dolphins what we think of them ? It is not like they can assume any amount of responsibility which comes with being recognized as capable of thinking. They get some free rights but no responsibility. Bunch of lazy welfare bums of the sea I tell you.

[Temujin]

I'm assuming thar be sarcasm; but just in case, it makes a difference in how we treat them.

[Solauren]

I say grant them 'basic sentient rights', and whale's similiar creature.

Enforcing it might be interesting. Imagine the reaction of a japanese tuna trawller if they pulled in a Dophin, were spotted and tailed by Greenpeace, and were arrested for stuff like 'force confinement of a sentient' when they next docked.

[Temujin]

I say grant them 'basic sentient rights', and whale's similiar creature.

Enforcing it might be interesting. Imagine the reaction of a japanese tuna trawller if they pulled in a Dophin, were spotted and tailed by Greenpeace, and were arrested for stuff like 'force confinement of a sentient' when they next docked.

More like Sea Shepard. Greenpeace just sits around and bears witness.

Oh, and the Japanese already do far worse.

[Sarevok]

Sea Shepard are free source of humor and entertainment for whalers. Their flagship got rammed in half few months back in a hilarious kitten attacks bear type incident. I dont see how incompetent morons in flimsy boats can arrest anyone.

[Kanastrous]

The boat that was split wasn't their flagship; it was a sort of fast-'attack' craft they had adapted.

*edit* or the Bob Barker... which (I think) isn't their 'flagship...' but maybe I'm mistaken. Although Bob Barker is a much larger, steel-hulled ship so I guess you probably meant Ady Gil, which was a small trimaran that did indeed wind up in two pieces...

[Zaune]

The mirror test could create problems, actually. My father (whom I consider a reliable witness) claimed he once owned a border collie that could pass it but I sincerely doubt all members of that breed could show the same ability, let alone all of canis domesticus. And if a handful of them do, does that mean we have to give all dogs the status of 'sentient' and some sort of associated legal protection (equivalent to minor children maybe?), or just the ones who pass the test?
And acquiring the necessary sample-set of dogs would be a piece of cake; I don't know how many dolphins there are in captivity worldwide, but I'd be very surprised if it was a statistically significant percentage of the world dolphin population. How would you prove the examples cited above weren't simply a fluke?

[Temujin]

The boat that was split wasn't their flagship; it was a sort of fast-'attack' craft they had adapted.

*edit* or the Bob Barker... which (I think) isn't their 'flagship...' but maybe I'm mistaken. Although Bob Barker is a much larger, steel-hulled ship so I guess you probably meant Ady Gil, which was a small trimaran that did indeed wind up in two pieces...

I'm not sure if they have an official flagship, but I assume it would the Steve Irwin; though really it could be whatever vessel Paul "Balls of Steel" Watson is commanding. The Bob Barker is their second ship and the Ady Gil was acting as a beefed up version of their small inflatable attack boats.

Their flagship got rammed in half few months back in a hilarious kitten attacks bear type incident.

Yeah, after being shut down and all but out of fuel, and the crew relaxing out on deck, and then being purposely rammed by the Shōnan Maru 2.

But my point was that Sea Shepard IS actively doing something by disrupting whaling and making it financially draining rather than profitable; unlike the useless idiots at Greenpeace, who not only do nothing, but also purposely distribute misinformation on topics such as nuclear power. Sea Shepard has also done more to draw attention to the ongoing issue of whaling than Greenpeace ever could.

[Temujin]

The mirror test could create problems, actually. My father (whom I consider a reliable witness) claimed he once owned a border collie that could pass it but I sincerely doubt all members of that breed could show the same ability, let alone all of canis domesticus. And if a handful of them do, does that mean we have to give all dogs the status of 'sentient' and some sort of associated legal protection (equivalent to minor children maybe?), or just the ones who pass the test?
And acquiring the necessary sample-set of dogs would be a piece of cake; I don't know how many dolphins there are in captivity worldwide, but I'd be very surprised if it was a statistically significant percentage of the world dolphin population. How would you prove the examples cited above weren't simply a fluke?

Yes, the mirror test has it's weaknesses and it's criticism, but I think it's a good enough judge of self-awareness. I've seen the same behavior with both dogs and cats, but it could be they are on the border and some (the more intelligent) can pass in a rudimentary fashion while others can't. And regarding potential sentience, I have no problem elevating any animal that indicates a higher level of intelligence; but as I said earlier, I think we need to be treating animals/nature a lot better then we've been.

[Sarevok]

But my point was that Sea Shepard IS actively doing something by disrupting whaling and making it financially draining rather than profitable; unlike the useless idiots at Greenpeace, who not only do nothing, but also purposely distribute misinformation on topics such as nuclear power. Sea Shepard has also done more to draw attention to the ongoing issue of whaling than Greenpeace ever could.

Until the day a Sea Shepard boat causes a whaling ship to retreat their entire organization will remain a mobile clown flotilla providing entertainment to Japanese sailors and world.

[Zaune]

Yes, the mirror test has it's weaknesses and it's criticism, but I think it's a good enough judge of self-awareness. I've seen the same behavior with both dogs and cats, but it could be they are on the border and some (the more intelligent) can pass in a rudimentary fashion while others can't. And regarding potential sentience, I have no problem elevating any animal that indicates a higher level of intelligence; but as I said earlier, I think we need to be treating animals/nature a lot better then we've been.

No argument there, and the mirror test is certainly a starting point. The problem of acquiring a good enough sample set to prove it conclusively in non-domesticated species remains, however, as does the question of how one handles individual examples of 'borderline' species who cross the threshold.

[LionElJonson]

But my point was that Sea Shepard IS actively doing something by disrupting whaling and making it financially draining rather than profitable; unlike the useless idiots at Greenpeace, who not only do nothing, but also purposely distribute misinformation on topics such as nuclear power. Sea Shepard has also done more to draw attention to the ongoing issue of whaling than Greenpeace ever could.

Until the day a Sea Shepard boat causes a whaling ship to retreat their entire organization will remain a mobile clown flotilla providing entertainment to Japanese sailors and world.

Actually giving their "sailors" some training would help. IIRC, the guy who runs them said he'd prefer a crew of enthusiastic incompetents to a crew of competent seamen who don't care for the cause; until that changes, they won't accomplish anything.

Stupidity oppressed. Are you fucking kidding me? -D

[LaCroix]

So you openly advocate terrorist actions now?

What the fuck is wrong with you? I suggest you to take a short break to start that thing supposedly hiding inside your cranium!

Ever thought about what the result would be? Apart from death and maiming some fishermen?

In small words, the end of Sea Shepherd, as it would be a criminal organization now. Also, the Japanese navy will probably start doing escort duty and capture all vessels coming even somewhat close to a whaling fleet.

[LionElJonson]

So you openly advocate terrorist actions now?

Eh. I'd support the government sinking them, and since the government's not willing to do what needs to be done, then vigilantes would have to take up the slack.

What the fuck is wrong with you? I suggest you to take a short break to start that thing supposedly hiding inside your cranium!

Ever thought about what the result would be? Apart from death and maiming some fishermen?

Not fishermen, whalers. There's a difference. They'd definitely if dolphins and whales are as smart as people.

In small words, the end of Sea Shepherd, as it would be a criminal organization now. Also, the Japanese navy will probably start doing escort duty and capture all vessels coming even somewhat close to a whaling fleet.

I really doubt that, especially since it seems like half of these fuckers are doing what they do inside Australian national waters.

[LaCroix]

The government isn't sinking them,
1st, because they are doing nothing illegal.
2nd, because if it were illegal, they would CAPTURE and DETAIN them.

Not all fishermen are whalers, but all whalers are fishermen. You're nitpicking...

Wow, Australian waters. So the Australian navy will be fine with some dicks killing some other dicks with torpedoes in their territory... No problems, no charges, and all will just assemble and pop a few beers over this, laughing at the deaths, the huge loss of monetary value to the ship owners, and the fuel that was released into the ocean.

Bet they will also clap Sea Shepherd on the shoulder and give them a hearty hug for producing an international incident...

[Shroom Man 777]

Didn't the French send frogmen (haha, geddit) to blow up one of their ships in New Zealand? If Sea Shep did that kind of shit, you can bet all manner of unpleasantries getting done to them. Man, imagine if these Japanese whalers had links to the Yakuza or some shit. Man, Sea Yakuzas whacking eco-terrorists going out using IEDs on whalers, in jerry-rigged ship-to-ship combat. Sounds like the premise of a video game.

Either way, LionElJohnson's being as dumb as a beached whale again. Maybe submarine sonar's scrambled his brains.

[TimothyC]

Didn't the French send frogmen (haha, geddit) to blow up one of their ships in New Zealand?

Greenpeace. Rainbow Warrior was the ship that was sunk. Personally I don't blame the French for what they did. Greenpeace was trying to interfere with French nuclear testing in the Pacific. Had they set the mines so it would go off in international waters, that would have been better.