230 000 Japanese Centenarians Unaccounted For

[Soontir C'boath]

More than 230,000 elderly people in Japan who are listed as being aged 100 or over are unaccounted for, officials said following a nationwide inquiry.

An audit of family registries was launched last month after the remains of the man thought to be Tokyo's oldest were found at his family home.

Relatives are accused of fraudulently receiving his pension for decades.

Officials have found that hundreds of the missing would be at least 150 years old if still alive.

The Justice Ministry said some of those unaccounted for may have died as long ago as World War II, possibly during the post-war turmoil.

Others may have emigrated without reporting their status to local authorities, or relatives simply did not report the deaths.

The inquiry followed the discovery of the mummified remains of Sogen Kato, who was thought to be the oldest man in Tokyo.

However, when officials went to congratulate him on his 111th birthday, they found his 30-year-old remains, raising concerns that the welfare system is being exploited by dishonest relatives.

Reports said he had received about 9.5m yen ($109,000; £70,000) in pension payments since his wife's death six years ago, and some of the money had been withdrawn.

Japan has one of the world's fastest ageing societies, with one in five over the age of 65.

Last year's Health Ministry report said Japan had 40,399 people aged 100 or older with known addresses.

Wow, I thought it would have been maybe a couple hundred or thousand of people taking advantage even with their high population but six figures!

[Solauren]

They need to start suspending payments to those people, until they come forward and say 'Hey, I'm alive'. Like, now.

That might not find all those commiting fraud, but it will stop the money flowing out, and then they can focus on finding those commiting fraud.

[LaCroix]

I remember that there are like a gazillion ads for japanese snake-oil of the week because japanese are living so much longer than europeans...

I would love to see their average life exectancy AFTER they corrected these 100+ to mid 70/80 years, like they probably were...

[Archaic`]

Honestly, with only 230,000, it's probably not going to make such a huge dent in their overall figures for the population.

Having said that, they really need to extend this search for people over the age of 80, given the length of time that some of these missing people have been dead for. There could potentially be millions on the rolls who are draining a pension system on the verge of collapse already, and that really does bear proper investigation. If the current DPJ government can blame this on the LDP somehow, and make an effort at recovering the money, they might be able to use that as a political sledgehammer for the next few elections.

[Mayabird]

The current population of Japan is officially a bit above 127.7 million. This comes out to 0.18% of the official population.

This is probably going to get nastier as it goes on. It's one thing to say to lock up people for fraud, and another when the frauders are the decrepit 70-80 year old children of supposedly 100 year old people and they could seriously use some help for themselves.

[Zaune]

This kind of reinforces some of the comments in the other Japan thread about how they're not as high-tech as they claim to be. Do pensions still have to be collected from the post office in cash there or something? If that's the case then they could cut the level of fraud at a stroke just by mandating direct debit, let alone phasing out passbooks and the like.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

To be on the safe side they would have to check every pensioner, not just those above a certain age.

Besides, it would be easier to organize the search by name instead of age.

[Archaic`]

Do pensions still have to be collected from the post office in cash there or something?

Fairly sure they just got paid directly into the back accounts of these people, since the story mentioned some of the cash paid being withdrawn.

I wonder how well their banks have done with all that cash just sitting around in some of those accounts that wasn't moving? Not all were used for fraud, some may have just never properly reported or documented the deaths. I know Japan has one of the lowest autopsy rates in the world, wouldn't surprise me.

[Zaune]

Fairly sure they just got paid directly into the back accounts of these people, since the story mentioned some of the cash paid being withdrawn.

Which says very little good about Japanese banks, actually. If I need to withdraw cash over the counter with my bank, I'm expected to either produce photo ID or tell them my date of birth and postcode, and the teller has a scan of my signature on the screen to compare with what I sign on the receipt.

I wonder how well their banks have done with all that cash just sitting around in some of those accounts that wasn't moving? Not all were used for fraud, some may have just never properly reported or documented the deaths. I know Japan has one of the lowest autopsy rates in the world, wouldn't surprise me.

That's not a uniquely Japanese problem, actually, at least where private pensions and investments are concerned. The next-of-kin may not know the accounts exist, and the deceased may not have kept good records of their own finances. You'd also be surprised how many people sign up for some savings scheme as part of their company pension and then forget about it.
That being said, there really is no excuse for a death certificate not triggering the process of stopping one's State pension payments, though it's not just the government that's at fault here.

[une]

Fairly sure they just got paid directly into the back accounts of these people, since the story mentioned some of the cash paid being withdrawn.

Which says very little good about Japanese banks, actually. If I need to withdraw cash over the counter with my bank, I'm expected to either produce photo ID or tell them my date of birth and postcode, and the teller has a scan of my signature on the screen to compare with what I sign on the receipt.

If someone other than the pensioner is pulling the money out, then they are probably just going to the ATM and using that persons passbook or cash-card to get the money out.

I do all of my banking through the ATM, so I'm not sure what happens when you try to do things over the counter, but I would be shocked if they didn't require photo ID.

[Zaune]

I've never used a passbook in an ATM so I don't know what security measures exist there, but over the counter usually requires you answer two security questions if you haven't got some ID on you. One of those is your date of birth, presumably for the very good reason that this makes it hard to pass yourself off as your dead grandpa.
If any of these missing senior citizens actually had ATM cards, that adds another and nastier dimension. How did their next-of-kin acquire their PIN numbers? I can't believe all of them would be foolish enough to commit it to paper, so are they being induced to reveal them somehow?

[Soontir C'boath]

Given these are elderly people and are more likely infirm, it was probably easier to let their children go to the bank than themselves (when they were alive of course).

[folti78]

Or the caretakers simply got the PIN code when the elders' the bank mailed the replacement debit cards(and it's PIN code, maybe in a different mail), before their current one expired. This is how the Hungarian banks dealt with expired cards in the last ~15 years here. As long as you have enough money on your account to cover the cost of the new card they automatically send the replacement.

[Phantasee]

My father has had access to my grandmother's and grandfather's bank accounts for the past ~20 years, because they were old and infirm and didn't speak English well. It's not that uncommon. The other thing they could have been doing is signing cheques in the deceased's name and depositing those in their own account.

[Zaune]

Or the caretakers simply got the PIN code when the elders' bank mailed the replacement debit cards(and it's PIN code, maybe in a different mail), before their current one expired. This is how the Hungarian banks dealt with expired cards in the last ~15 years here. As long as you have enough money on your account to cover the cost of the new card they automatically send the replacement.

As far as I know, UK banks only send out new PINs if you specifically request a new one; three wrong PIN entries at an ATM and it retains your card, so it's not like it's possible to brute-force them.
And if your bank is charging you for replacement cards, except if you lose or damage them through your own negligence, you need to start banking with someone else.

My father has had access to my grandmother's and grandfather's bank accounts for the past ~20 years, because they were old and infirm and didn't speak English well. It's not that uncommon. The other thing they could have been doing is signing cheques in the deceased's name and depositing those in their own account.

I would hope for your dad's sake that there's some kind of power of attorney agreement in place there, because he could wind up in some very hot water if someone gets the wrong idea. Good point about the cheques, though.

[folti78]

Or the caretakers simply got the PIN code when the elders' bank mailed the replacement debit cards(and it's PIN code, maybe in a different mail), before their current one expired. This is how the Hungarian banks dealt with expired cards in the last ~15 years here. As long as you have enough money on your account to cover the cost of the new card they automatically send the replacement.

As far as I know, UK banks only send out new PINs if you specifically request a new one; three wrong PIN entries at an ATM and it retains your card, so it's not like it's possible to brute-force them.

Three wrong PINs and the ATM eats your card is the default here too, the other one changed somewhere between early 2007 and late 2009.

And if your bank is charging you for replacement cards, except if you lose or damage them through your own negligence, you need to start banking with someone else

Yeah I misremembered, because the last two occasions both had some hiccups which resulted in a lost card scenario.

My father has had access to my grandmother's and grandfather's bank accounts for the past ~20 years, because they were old and infirm and didn't speak English well. It's not that uncommon. The other thing they could have been doing is signing cheques in the deceased's name and depositing those in their own account.

I would hope for your dad's sake that there's some kind of power of attorney agreement in place there, because he could wind up in some very hot water if someone gets the wrong idea. Good point about the cheques, though.

Or, if the bank allows it, you can add a co-holder to the account who could have all the rights as the original owner.

[Phantasee]

Of course he got the power of attorney signed, that's why if bank asks for his ID they accepts that he has access to their accounts. However, I've never been IDed when I go to the bank unless I want to make changes to my account, or if I'm withdrawing a large percentage of the balance of an account.

[une]

I've never used a passbook in an ATM so I don't know what security measures exist there, but over the counter usually requires you answer two security questions if you haven't got some ID on you. One of those is your date of birth, presumably for the very good reason that this makes it hard to pass yourself off as your dead grandpa.
If any of these missing senior citizens actually had ATM cards, that adds another and nastier dimension. How did their next-of-kin acquire their PIN numbers? I can't believe all of them would be foolish enough to commit it to paper, so are they being induced to reveal them somehow?

Passbooks in Japan work about the same as a cash card. You put it into the ATM, enter your pin number and you have access to your account.

In terms of PIN numbers, like others have said, for family members those aren't difficult to obtain. I've known my mother's various PIN numbers for years and she's not even infirm yet.

[Solauren]

Elderly people giving there youngers bank information is more common then you think.

i.e My grandmother isn't in the best shape. Okay, she has Half a lung, literally. She doesn't get around that well.
3 people have her bank information - Her, and my parents. She asked me to do something for her once, and offered me her zap card and pin number. My reply - "Um, no. I'll use mine, and keep the recipet, and let my parents handle the dept for me."

My grandfather (other side of family), I believe in addition to himself, 2 of my aunts/uncles know his bank information, and I believe the nursing home he lives in knows some of it. My grandfather isn't infirm by any means, it's just 'in case'. I believe his Lawyer also knows it.