Earth in the 2nd to 30th Millenium (40k)

[NecronLord]

Pre-fall Eldar could also create worlds and stars.There's one quote about that and they were practically immortal since they could reincarnate.

Eldar can't reincarnate. not even during the hight of there empire. you are probably thinking of the shamans on earth

Just as a correction for both parties, The Eldar reincarnated before the War in Heaven, when they were Old One cannon fodder, not during the Eldar Empire.

[Connor MacLeod]

Re: Chaos Gods again. I should note that (IIRC) the Chaos Demons codex (from when I covered it) noted that Slaanesh supposedly had existed BEFORE his own birth two,, or osme other stuff. (some chaos derived source did.) And the novel FArseer hinted that a Slaaneshi type daemon had existed even before Slaanesh came into being. IIt seems like a paradox but it isn't: When we talk abou tthe "birth" of a Chaos entity, we're talking about it existing as a self-ware, sentient sort of entity. There appears to be a sort of "critical mass" neccessary that allows for the birth of a self aware Chaos God - before that it is simply a more nebulous, unformed entity, but one that still exists. The self awareness thing seems to come about when a Chaos "power" has gained enough souls/spirits/lessr entities composing it to incarnate, much like a Tyranid hive mind.

The same thing happens to Daemons and such too, just on a lesser scale (depending on power level) - daemons are connected to and created from the "essence" of the higher beings, and since they are more easily created can exist (perhaps in a more disorganzied or less unified manner) even before the "higher" Chaos Gods evolved.

By that same token, it should be possible to undo the creation of a Chaos god by similar means - simply take away/break up/scatter the critical mass of souls/spirits/etc, comprising it. Heck, its quite possible this happens from time to time (on the longer timescales) you often hear the Chaos side takl about how chaos will ultimately "win",but it doesnt specify whether it means Chaos (in general, or chaos undivided) or the self-aware, specific type Chaos Gods ((which should be as vulnerable to entropy as everything else - so they probably fade out eventually as well.)

[OmegaChief]

It is also worth noting that time itself is more of a guideline in regards to thw Warp, so in a non-liner timeframe it's entirly possible for Slaanesh to exist before it's own birth.

[Jeremy]

Is there much fluff on the Demiurg from Battle Fleet Gothica?

[andrewgpaul]

Other than the two ships in the supplement book, no; they've been basically ignored. Looks like Space Dwarfs are off the menu for the foreseeable future.

According to the GW website today, there'll be a re-release of the Dark Eldar starting around November this year. That might give some new insights into pre-Fall Eldar society and their relationship with the Great Enemy.

[Cykeisme]

I should note that (IIRC) the Chaos Demons codex (from when I covered it) noted that Slaanesh supposedly had existed BEFORE his own birth two,, or osme other stuff. (some chaos derived source did.) And the novel FArseer hinted that a Slaaneshi type daemon had existed even before Slaanesh came into being. IIt seems like a paradox but it isn't: When we talk abou tthe "birth" of a Chaos entity, we're talking about it existing as a self-ware, sentient sort of entity. There appears to be a sort of "critical mass" neccessary that allows for the birth of a self aware Chaos God - before that it is simply a more nebulous, unformed entity, but one that still exists. The self awareness thing seems to come about when a Chaos "power" has gained enough souls/spirits/lessr entities composing it to incarnate, much like a Tyranid hive mind.

That's one way of looking at it, but that's not how exactly what the Chaos Daemons codex says.

The gist of the the paragraph was that the warp does not follow the same rules of causality and time the way the real universe does; specifically, it says Slaanesh was born at the fall of the Eldar, and yet, in a way Slaanesh always existed before then, and at the same time, Slaanesh never ever existed at all.
Yes, that makes absolutely no fucking sense at all, but I think that's the point they were trying to make about the Immaterium.

If anyone wants, I can get an exact quote in a day or so.. don't have the book with me at the moment.

[Wing Commander MAD]

My vote for worst faction goes to the C'tan, though not the Necron. Come on they eat souls, not because its their nature or anything, they just taste better than energy put out by stars.

Speaking of the luck humanity had with regards to not being snuffed out early. Has it every been put down concretely when the C'tan/Necrons did the whole Pariah gene bit? I seem to recall there being some speculation that humanity might have been an Old One pet project and the whole Pariah bit was the C'tan way of screwing with it in the R&D phase (although no idea of when or if it occurred). I'm pretty sure the whole St. George story is based around the GEoM defeating the Void Dragon (in 40k's timeline), so contact by at least as early as the Middle/Dark Ages. Presumably, the Void Dragon would have had a snack if it were not for the Emperor, or humanity would have been turned into Necron 2.0 at some point.

Secondly, how long after the War in Heaven did the Kork ->Ork bit come about? I always got the impression that Kork were rather orderly by comparison to the Ork, and that the modern Ork was something akin to an army/society where all leadership was removed and order had to be reestablished from nothing. Presumably, there's at least some truth to the whole Brain Boy legend. It might be that the Kork weren't quite as expansionist as the Ork, or at least not as reckless. That combined with the Eldar Empire might have inhibited their spread compared to current levels. That theory of course is reliant on chronology of the loss of the Brain Boys (if they were in fact not how the Ork "remember" the Old Ones), Then again, there's that bit of old fluff where adolecent Orks go through a "rebellious" phase and act all orderly (I don't think that ever got retconned), so maybe not that much of change in behavior. Really, a better question might be what is the difference between the Kork and the Ork and how that change affected the galatic power balance? I assume there's more to it than the Ork simply forgot the 'K' at the beginning of thier races name. The only major powers active after the C'tan and their Necron servants went dormant were the Kork/Ork and the Eldar to my knowledge.

[NecronLord]

My vote for worst faction goes to the C'tan, though not the Necron. Come on they eat souls, not because its their nature or anything, they just taste better than energy put out by stars.

Technically they feed off bio-electrical energy. They do not eat souls, though they have an unspecified means to destroy them if they wish.

Speaking of the luck humanity had with regards to not being snuffed out early. Has it every been put down concretely when the C'tan/Necrons did the whole Pariah gene bit?

Nope. The Pariah gene is likely another that was latent.

I seem to recall there being some speculation that humanity might have been an Old One pet project and the whole Pariah bit was the C'tan way of screwing with it in the R&D phase (although no idea of when or if it occurred). I'm pretty sure the whole St. George story is based around the GEoM defeating the Void Dragon (in 40k's timeline), so contact by at least as early as the Middle/Dark Ages. Presumably, the Void Dragon would have had a snack if it were not for the Emperor, or humanity would have been turned into Necron 2.0 at some point.

Secondly, how long after the War in Heaven did the Kork ->Ork bit come about? I always got the impression that Kork were rather orderly by comparison to the Ork,

Krork is the Necrontyr (possibly Old One) term for Orks. The Deciever positively identifies modern Orks as Krorks in Deus Ex Mechanicus.

The only major powers active after the C'tan and their Necron servants went dormant were the Kork/Ork and the Eldar to my knowledge.

There were some other survivors, notably the Hrud.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Were the Hrud really ever a major player in galactic events though? I've never actually heard of them being referred to as a major player at any particular point in 40K history, usually more of nuisance and boogieman to IoM ship crews, along with the occasional problem on a planet or two. Certainly, I've never heard of them referred to in the same way that the Orks or Eldar are referenced. The only real alien threats to the IoM as an entity of comparable size/power seem to be the Ork, Eldar, and Tyranids. The Squats got the axe, the Tau are a joke that mainly seem to exist and survive only to attract Mecha Anime fans, and the Necrons/C'tan are too wanked out to ever be awoken in numbers lest the status quo be broken. Many fans tend to paint the Hrud as space Skaven, more based on fan wishes than any actual evidence from GW from what I understand, though without the giant underground empire teaming with countless hordes. Not exactly what I'd call a major civilziation/species in the galaxy, though if there's lore indicating otherwise please point me to it or quote it if its not really large.

The only way I could see the Hrud being a threat to humanity is if one of their migrations went to Earth or another Human planet early on before humans spread very far. Granted, that's more in line with Stravo's question, yet I kinda doubt that's what he was thinking of when he made this thread. He seamed to be talking more along the lines of the traditional shooty/stabby death for which 40k is known.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

A race called the Kinebrach is mentioned a couple of times. They occupied the fortress worlds of the Cabal Systems from M15 - M31, one of only two identified species (out of a total of eight occupiers over 2 million years) to do so (The Sabbat Worlds Crusade, p. 73). They also turn up in Horus Rising, as part of the Human-led Interex.

Xenology reveals a few of the minor alien powers, such as the Thyrrus (four-armed squid/slug thing, very hard to describe), the Q'Orl (short-lived eusocial insects, born of single Swarmqueen, one of which was stolen by the Eldar), and Xenarch (isolationist warp-worshippers), amongst others. It also gave some more info on the Hrud, and they are not space Skaven at all. Overall, it gave me the impression that the galaxy is teeming with minor alien powers, with the Tau being set apart only in they got an Army Book.

Regarding possible threats, Q'Orl space isn't far from Terra (approximately half way between Terra and the Eye of Terror, but Rimwards), but they lacked warp drive until recently (salvaged from Imperial ships, using Goa'uld-esque mind-control worms to control captured Navigators). Their expansionism is driven by a sense of 'racial glory', influenced by their ten-year life spans.

Incidentally, the closest I've ever seen to 'space Skaven' would be the Tarellian Dog Soldiers, and they might be closer to 'space Lizardmen.'

[Wing Commander MAD]

I figured as much, my dislike for the Tau seems to know no bounds on its growth. Maybe, just maybe, if we are lucky enough the Tau will go the way of the Squats (which were rather more interesting). One can dream at least.

[Cykeisme]

The Void Dragon was a good point to bring up. A fucking C'Tan Star God showed up on Earth, and the Emperor somehow kicked its ass and locked it up without anyone on Earth even knowing.
Regardless of extenuating circumstances, if the Emperor could detect, meet, and defeat a threat of that magnitude, it's likely he had some sort of plan for resisting any other nasties that may have found Earth. Granted, some threats would probably force him to reveal himself to humanity earlier to prepare to meet the danger, but I guess nothing like that came our way.
Perhaps he was also somehow masking Earth's presence from some external threats as well?


Regarding the Krork, it is my belief that they were somehow designed to be obedient to the Old Ones. In the presence of an Old One commander, they can be organized into an efficient military force and their aggressiveness can be directed properly at the enemy. Even without proper organization modern Orks are quite a threat; imagine what they could be if they had it!
Basically I figure the Ork we see are simply Krork that have been allowed to run wild, and the leadership of an Old One could turn the disparate Orky empires back into the efficient living weapons they were designed to be.. to whatever end. It's just that there aren't any Old Ones left.

[IvanTih]

The Void Dragon was a good point to bring up. A fucking C'Tan Star God showed up on Earth, and the Emperor somehow kicked its ass and locked it up without anyone on Earth even knowing.
Regardless of extenuating circumstances, if the Emperor could detect, meet, and defeat a threat of that magnitude, it's likely he had some sort of plan for resisting any other nasties that may have found Earth. Granted, some threats would probably force him to reveal himself to humanity earlier to prepare to meet the danger, but I guess nothing like that came our way.
Perhaps he was also somehow masking Earth's presence from some external threats as well?


Regarding the Krork, it is my belief that they were somehow designed to be obedient to the Old Ones. In the presence of an Old One commander, they can be organized into an efficient military force and their aggressiveness can be directed properly at the enemy. Even without proper organization modern Orks are quite a threat; imagine what they could be if they had it!
Basically I figure the Ork we see are simply Krork that have been allowed to run wild, and the leadership of an Old One could turn the disparate Orky empires back into the efficient living weapons they were designed to be.. to whatever end. It's just that there aren't any Old Ones left.

Imagine an Emperor mind raping any alien fleet invading Earth,that would be awesome.
And Emperor seems to be even more powerful because he teleported himself and the Void Dragon on Mars and imprisioned him(which is 78 million km aways and if I recall correctly Imperial Teleporters have ranges in thousand of kilometres,simply consider the distance involved).

[jollyreaper]

Yes, but surely we can't be the only ones? There are supposed to be a lot of intelligent races in the galaxy, and there'd be many, many more if it weren't for humanity's empire destroying so many.

I doubt that humanity on only one planet would have more effect on Chaos than the combined psychic influence of the entire rest of the galaxy, in other words.

Then you should try finding the evidence of such. Games Workshop has declared by author fiat, and by their writing that MAN is pretty much numero uno on the psychic power list. We are Chaos' number target, our oversized lust for war and what not gave the first seeds to the Chaos gods, with only Slaanesh being produced by the Eldar's interstellar empire. Our psychic potential produced the Emperor of Man from said Shamans, and we make the Eldar look at us as the worst thing to have happened because if it all fucks over and fails, the newest Chaos god resulting from our fall would make the Four look like children and the Eye of Terror look like a minor stellar hiccup.

With all the gods of evil, I note a distinct lack of not evil gods. Has anyone tried to invent some? The God-Emperor would come close but there's no telling if he's even still alive in the Throne. My personal pet theory is he's dead and it's the arcane machinery of the throne that's generating the Astronomicon from the consumed psycher souls. He's still portrayed as "alive" because he's a powerful symbol and rallying cry.

But if humans really are super potent as psychers, what if they could create a god out of sheer belief, the way the Eldar created their after their fall? And what if they could imagine a God-Emperor back into being? Sure, he's be fairly awful and a monster on the scale of the Old Testament Yahweh but in the 40k universe, a jealous tyrant God who smites his enemies might look pretty friendly considering what's on the receiving end of the smiting.

Just as a personal beef with most scifi and fantasy settings, we always get the cosmic gods of evil, hell dimensions, demons, etc, but we never get heaven dimensions, benign gods, extra-powerful paranormal or alien superscience entities you can feel happy about allying with. Seems a bit unbalanced. Usually the only bone thrown at us is that you get two super-powerful alien god factions that both suck but one might suck a little less, i.e. Vorlons vs. Shadows. You still wouldn't want anything to do with either of them.

[Ghost Rider]

With all the gods of evil, I note a distinct lack of not evil gods. Has anyone tried to invent some? The God-Emperor would come close but there's no telling if he's even still alive in the Throne. My personal pet theory is he's dead and it's the arcane machinery of the throne that's generating the Astronomicon from the consumed psycher souls. He's still portrayed as "alive" because he's a powerful symbol and rallying cry.

Both Draco novel and other sources do indicate that he's alive in the sense of the Chaos Gods are. He's aware of the universe and is still plugging along, just at the very edge of dying and either becoming a Warp God or something.

But if humans really are super potent as psychers, what if they could create a god out of sheer belief, the way the Eldar created their after their fall? And what if they could imagine a God-Emperor back into being? Sure, he's be fairly awful and a monster on the scale of the Old Testament Yahweh but in the 40k universe, a jealous tyrant God who smites his enemies might look pretty friendly considering what's on the receiving end of the smiting.

That is the plan of more then a couple groups within the IoM, with different variations of said plan.

[jollyreaper]

I figured as much, my dislike for the Tau seems to know no bounds on its growth. Maybe, just maybe, if we are lucky enough the Tau will go the way of the Squats (which were rather more interesting). One can dream at least.

What's your biggest beef?

[Ghost Rider]

I figured as much, my dislike for the Tau seems to know no bounds on its growth. Maybe, just maybe, if we are lucky enough the Tau will go the way of the Squats (which were rather more interesting). One can dream at least.

Unlikely as their models sell, and the Squats never really did .

[IvanTih]

I figured as much, my dislike for the Tau seems to know no bounds on its growth. Maybe, just maybe, if we are lucky enough the Tau will go the way of the Squats (which were rather more interesting). One can dream at least.

Unlikely as their models sell, and the Squats never really did .

I love Last Chancers because it shows that Imperial technology is better than Tau's technology(read Connor's analysis).

[Ghost Rider]

I figured as much, my dislike for the Tau seems to know no bounds on its growth. Maybe, just maybe, if we are lucky enough the Tau will go the way of the Squats (which were rather more interesting). One can dream at least.

Unlikely as their models sell, and the Squats never really did .

I love Last Chancers because it shows that Imperial technology is better than Tau's technology(read Connor's analysis).

That has absolutely nothing to do with the selling of said models.

[IvanTih]

I figured as much, my dislike for the Tau seems to know no bounds on its growth. Maybe, just maybe, if we are lucky enough the Tau will go the way of the Squats (which were rather more interesting). One can dream at least.

Unlikely as their models sell, and the Squats never really did .
I love Last Chancers because it shows that Imperial technology is better than Tau's technology(read Connor's analysis).

That has absolutely nothing to do with the selling of said models.

I know,but I had to mention it since I dislike Tau as much as Wing Commander.
I don't like Tau models since they are like anime and what is anime doing in a universe with completely different style.

[Srelex]

I figured as much, my dislike for the Tau seems to know no bounds on its growth. Maybe, just maybe, if we are lucky enough the Tau will go the way of the Squats (which were rather more interesting). One can dream at least.

Unlikely as their models sell, and the Squats never really did .
I love Last Chancers because it shows that Imperial technology is better than Tau's technology(read Connor's analysis).

That has absolutely nothing to do with the selling of said models.

I know,but I had to mention it since I dislike Tau as much as Wing Commander.
I don't like Tau models since they are like anime and what is anime doing in a universe with completely different style.

What 'style'? Each army has its own style. Hell, the Eldar are also sleek and smooth--are they 'anime'?

As for Last Chancers, keep in mind that the characters are still impressed by a lot of the Tau on their ship and in their city, so it's not really saying that Imperium tech is better that much.

[IvanTih]

I figured as much, my dislike for the Tau seems to know no bounds on its growth. Maybe, just maybe, if we are lucky enough the Tau will go the way of the Squats (which were rather more interesting). One can dream at least.

Unlikely as their models sell, and the Squats never really did .
I love Last Chancers because it shows that Imperial technology is better than Tau's technology(read Connor's analysis).

That has absolutely nothing to do with the selling of said models.

I know,but I had to mention it since I dislike Tau as much as Wing Commander.
I don't like Tau models since they are like anime and what is anime doing in a universe with completely different style.

What 'style'? Each army has its own style. Hell, the Eldar are also sleek and smooth--are they 'anime'?

As for Last Chancers, keep in mind that the characters are still impressed by a lot of the Tau on their ship and in their city, so it's not really saying that Imperium tech is better that much.

Eldar aren't anime,but Tau have that sort of feel to them.
I know,but it's nice to see Tau wank debunked.

[Srelex]

Eldar aren't anime,but Tau have that sort of feel to them.
I know,but it's nice to see Tau wank debunked.

For the most part, Tau only really have a generic futuristic aesthetic. And as for Last Chancers, what people forget is that it's written in a first-person perspective. From the POV of someone who's not ambigious about hating the xeno and all that.

Edit:Clarification.

[IvanTih]

Eldar aren't anime,but Tau have that sort of feel to them.
I know,but it's nice to see Tau wank debunked.

For the most part, Tau only really have a generic futuristic aesthetic. And as for Last Chancers, what people forget is that it's written in a first-person perspective. From the POV of someone who's not ambigious about hating the xeno and all that.

Edit:Clarification.

So what if it's written from POV,he doesn't make hyperboles.

[starfury]

For the most part, Tau only really have a generic futuristic aesthetic

That is really the reason I always felt the Tau was out of place, theire aestheic was just rather genric futuristic, compared to the more stylized designs for all the other armies, they felt too genric by comparsion to the other powers.