Gather. Your. Armies.

[Elfdart]

How great is that? A rhetorically compelling advertisement based entirely on lies and historical falsehoods. But the vision of American history implied by the ad is precisely what Tea Partiers believe.

I wish I could find the video where Chris Matthews rubbed this guy's nose in his own bullshit. For a wanker like Matthews it was a good show.

[Dillon]

So let me get this straight? Assuming that there is no historical revision occurring here, the logic is that because a bunch of slave owners resorted to violence over having to pay more taxes hundreds of years, modern Americans should do the same? Does American society really place such low priority on human life?

That was a rhetorical question.

[KrauserKrauser]

Depending on the historian you follow, those reasons are not accurate for the causes of the revolution either.

Besides being a vast combination of factors, you had incitement from the colonial side from such wonders as Sam Adams and a large group of tax evaders that were being screwed by the government not simply due to taxes but the manner in which they had to be paid.

Simply saying "More taxes...WARRRRRR!" is a gross understatement to the point of inaccuracy.

[Simon_Jester]

To be fair, I'm not sure one can say all Americans are taught to treat their main historical figures as demigods. I don't remember being taught so; it may be a cultural or regional problem more than a "this is how Americans are" problem.

The mythic version of American history exists, and all too many Americans don't realize the there's anything beyond it, but it's hardly a universal phenomenon.

You're absolutely correct. I attended public school in Ogden, Utah and some of the history we were taught included the masscare at My Lai (and other vietnam horrors), the genocide against the native americans, the heavy involvment of the French in our revolution, the United States favoritism towards Israel.

It is important to recognize that americans aren't the only people that stereotype the practices of an entire country. (wink wink)

I cannot say that my experience in the Mormon Theocracy that is close to Deseret Utah is as encouraging. Basically guilty of all the bullshit mentioned so far.

This is exactly what I'm getting at. In some places the US educational system is pure shit when it comes to giving people a clear picture of their own history. In others, it's not shit: it actually communicates the message that American history was a mixed bag, that its great figures were not gods, that there were very real conflicts, abuses, and troubles within that history rather than the whole thing being an endless triumphal march of American pride.

You can't generalize from experiences in West Hicktown, Rural County in Jesustan to the whole country.

[Thanas]

So explain to me why Americans worship the founding fathers that much then? Would they do that if they had a decent history education? I mean, unless you want to argue americans either do not care, disregard the good education or are just plain stupid, what explanation do you offer for why founding father worship is shared by the majority of the USA population?

[Kamakazie Sith]

So explain to me why Americans worship the founding fathers that much then? Would they do that if they had a decent history education? I mean, unless you want to argue americans either do not care, disregard the good education or are just plain stupid, what explanation do you offer for why founding father worship is shared by the majority of the USA population?

Well, I haven't seen this study that supports your claim. Do you have a link?

[Simon_Jester]

It would help if he defined his terms, particularly "worship." There are very few Americans who literally worship the founders as deities, so he's obviously being rhetorical.

But does he mean "worship" in the sense of "think they were the greatest men who ever lived, such that their opinions override everything else that happened before or since?"

Does he mean "worship" in the sense of "buy into a narrative in which they were effectively stainless and above criticism?"

Does he mean "worship" in the sense of "think their political insights are more relevant to today's political situation than would normally be expected of people who lived 250 years ago commenting on a modern subject?" That would be a much weaker form of "worship" than the first two.

Does he mean "worship" in the sense of "give a damn what they had in mind when they wrote down portions of the US constitution that are still in play today?" That, too, is a fairly weak form of "worship;" it may be silly but it seems to me that it's well within the international traditions of legalism to worry about what the original wording of a law meant in the terms prevailing at the time.

Perhaps he just means "worship" in the sense of "regards them as generally positive historical figures whose legacy is interesting," in the same sense that the legacy of, say, Queen Elizabeth I or Cicero might be interesting without those people being regarded as some sort of quasi-divine heroes. I may find the life of Thomas Jefferson interesting for a number of reasons without thinking of him as a god; does that mean I "worship" him in the sense Thanas is talking about?

There are a lot of things "worship" could mean here, and depending on just what about America Thanas is exasperated with, his perception that "Americans worship" the founders might well be true of a majority. Or it might not. There's no way to know.

[Thanas]

You really want me to cite a scientific study that proves Americans admire the founding fathers? Really? You are an american, right?

But fine. Founding fathers: the essential guide to the men who made America, pg. xi-13,

Within the broader world of popular opinion in the United States, the Founding Fathers are often accorded near mythical status as demigods who occupy privileged locations on the slopes of an American version of Mt. Olympus.

And Jester:

I mean worship in the sense of "what they said must be right", their works, especially the constitution, are "the greatest", they are above criticism and politicians claiming that "the founding fathers would support X" using that to rally political support behind it is pretty much what I mean.


Mike put it pretty well one time:

The way you talk about them, you'd think they were modern-day messiahs. You quote the bastards the same way you quote your Bible. Tricky ethical dilemma? Let's see what the Founding Fathers had to say! Trying to chart social policy? Let's see what the Founding Fathers had to say!

[Bakustra]

That's not really a scientific study, but on the other hand, this attitude seems difficult to examine with a study. If you asked the makers of the video outright whether they worship the founding fathers, they would say no. If you asked them if the Founding Fathers did no wrong, they might say yes... but the attitude is clear.

I think that this is an outgrowth (indeed a natural one) of a far more prevalent attitude of making the Constitution a moral document as well as a legal one. You can see this in gun control arguments- the 2nd Amendment is often used as an argument in and of itself, to the frustration of non-Americans. I can only speculate as to why this is so.

My belief is that it has to do with education putting a lot of focus on the Constitution. In my native state, American History must be taught in the 8th and 10th grades, and the 8th grade must cover the pre-Reconstruction era and the 10th grade the post-Reconstruction era. But both start out with a unit on the Constitution. The focus is upon the strengths of the Constitution, not upon its potential weaknesses, and this discourages any critical thought about it. It is declared good. So it is assumed to have moral authority alongside its legal authority. I do believe that this was a deliberate result of 1) the intentions of the developers of public high schools to create loyal citizens, and 2) the Red Scares in the 20s and 50s, which also necessitated more patriotism instilled in education.

[Darmalus]

It's not just a legal or moral document, it's become a magic talisman to some parts of the population. My brother, for example, thinks that the next time he has an encounter with the police, he will just wave his pocket constitution and it will somehow be a Get Out of Jail Free card. For some reason, he doesn't want to go with my "Stop drinking, driving and then getting into a wrestling match with the police" idea.

[Bakustra]

It's not just a legal or moral document, it's become a magic talisman to some parts of the population. My brother, for example, thinks that the next time he has an encounter with the police, he will just wave his pocket constitution and it will somehow be a Get Out of Jail Free card. For some reason, he doesn't want to go with my "Stop drinking, driving and then getting into a wrestling match with the police" idea.

That's what I mean by outgrowth. The same thing happens with regard to the Bible and Christianity (see the common perception of exorcism, or the idea that a cross repels evil. These are out of date, of course and we are secular enough that people won't try making bald eagles with their fingers to repel Communism anytime soon, excellent idea for satire though it may be).

If you don't mind my asking, does your brother have a reason why he thinks that would work?

[Darmalus]

If you don't mind my asking, does your brother have a reason why he thinks that would work?

I would call it a combination of lack of personal control over his life (or his belief that he doesn't) and very poor understanding of why he doesn't. He believes a lot of crap (911 conspiracies, chemtrails, 2012, etc.) but his "woo-woo" factor seems to skyrocket anytime he loses any control, his rants while he served community service were impressive in volume and length. I think that when confronted by how complex society (legal, economic, social, etc.) really is, he just tries to simplify it to a cartoonish degree, where the U.S. constitution is a magic talisman and a small group of people control everything directly instead of it just being huge numbers of people interacting.

Edit: Now that I think of it, that could be why the constitution is so worshiped, it's small enough that it can fit in your pocket, while the real legal system fills libraries.

[Wing Commander MAD]

The best explanation I've heard (damned if I remember from where) is that the Revolutionary War, establishing a government, and the founding fathers are the closet America has to a cultural heritage. We're certainly not a nation state, I believe that's the correct term. The fact that the country recieved fairly large groups of immigrants regularly (and thier culture along with them) up until the present probably didn't help much either. It's probably been seen as one of the few unifying aspects of "American Culture". This is probably further enhanced by the tendency of people to gather/be forced into ethnic ghettos when they first arrive, thus exacerbating difference in culture both percieved and real. Finally, the lack of mythological/folk heroes held in common probably led to the mythologizing of the founding fathers to some degree to fill the void. Looking back upon the "great men" of our past as a source of pride seems to be a fairlly common aspect of human societies.

[Knife]

That might be true, using the Founding Fathers as an ad hoc royalty and a basis for our cultural history as America hasn't really been around that long. Being developed from mainly European countries with monarchies, I can see some people looking to the Founders as kind of their historical beginning of what they see as a great and rich history.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You really want me to cite a scientific study that proves Americans admire the founding fathers? Really? You are an american, right?

I believe you said worship. I'd agree with you that most do admire the founding fathers.

But fine. Founding fathers: the essential guide to the men who made America, pg. xi-13,
----------------------------------------------------
Within the broader world of popular opinion in the United States, the Founding Fathers are often accorded near mythical status as demigods who occupy privileged locations on the slopes of an American version of Mt. Olympus.

I'm not sure that really qualifies. It sounds like an opinion based on no actual field work.

I mean worship in the sense of "what they said must be right", their works, especially the constitution, are "the greatest", they are above criticism and politicians claiming that "the founding fathers would support X" using that to rally political support behind it is pretty much what I mean.

The constitution is considered the highest law in the United States, yes. It is the foundation for our legal system. Let me ask you. What would you change about the constitution, besides the 2nd amendment? I mean change...not add?

The way you talk about them, you'd think they were modern-day messiahs. You quote the bastards the same way you quote your Bible. Tricky ethical dilemma? Let's see what the Founding Fathers had to say! Trying to chart social policy? Let's see what the Founding Fathers had to say!

Probably referring to government health care? Anyway, I'm not sure that this is entirely accurate either. Does it happen? Sure. Does it happen most the time a decision needs to be made? I guess it depends on what the subject is...

[Thanas]

But fine. Founding fathers: the essential guide to the men who made America, pg. xi-13,
----------------------------------------------------
Within the broader world of popular opinion in the United States, the Founding Fathers are often accorded near mythical status as demigods who occupy privileged locations on the slopes of an American version of Mt. Olympus.

I'm not sure that really qualifies. It sounds like an opinion based on no actual field work.

The guy who wrote this is currently the preeminent founding-fathers-historian (if that word makes sense). I am inclined to trust him.

The constitution is considered the highest law in the United States, yes. It is the foundation for our legal system. Let me ask you. What would you change about the constitution, besides the 2nd amendment? I mean change...not add?

Clearer outline of federal powers, removing the parts about slavery etc. It also is a rather inelegant document in its structure, with its long sentences etc.

Probably referring to government health care? Anyway, I'm not sure that this is entirely accurate either. Does it happen? Sure. Does it happen most the time a decision needs to be made? I guess it depends on what the subject is...

Nevertheless, the level of worship of the Founding fathers is far higher in the USA than anywhere and it is actually damaging in my opinion. See how far the Tea Party can resonate with its claim of "as our founders opposed this" and the uneducated idiots will just gobble it up. Which brings me to my earlier point about defiicient education.

[Kanastrous]

For what it's worth I listen to a lot of right-wingey talk radio and 'The Founders' are endlessly, constantly, repetitively invoked in conversations regarding virtually every topic. Their wisdom. Their unique vision. Their creation of a nation that will serve as a light to other countries. Really, after a while you start expecting x-ray vision, telepathic powers, super strength and psychokinetic abilities...

...and there really *is* a sense that no matter how many years pile up, 'The Founders' wisdom will always be best (if only we can agree upon how to apply it) and apparently by virtue of their messianic qualities it's quite unpatriotic and maybe even just a bit heretical to suggest otherwise.

I suspect this would make George Washington sick to his stomach, were he unfortunate enough to somehow see it.

Thanas, it's off-topic but I just *have* to ask: how would you render preeminent founding-fathers-historian in German?

[Thanas]

Der zurzeit bedeutendste Gründer-Historiker.

[Stark]

Can it be said that this is a two-way street? That while the 'fathers' are the source of all that is great and true in the American experiment of freedom, the greatness of America also makes the 'fathers' greater by association. Since they founded America and America is now the military and industrial world ruler, clearly this is due to their unique vision.

[Kanastrous]

I think that might be a hard sell for the crowd that always looks backwards, backwards, backwards for inspiration. People who consistently want to reach for an 18th-century solution to every social issue are unlikely to dig the proposition that 18th century greatness owes anything to 19th, 20th or 21st-century innovation...yes, these types do insist that the greatness of the Founder's vision is proven by the successes with which the nation has met but that basically ignores every decision taken after the point at which the last of 'em was buried...

...America's pre-eminence being mainly a result of the Founders' divinely-inspired wisdom and goodness only really flies if you ignore everything else going on affecting every other great, declining or rising power in the world over the span of US history. This wouldn't work for (I suspect) most SDNet types but has obvious appeal to a population that hasn't been getting decent history instruction since...well, probably some time before any of us were born.

[Stark]

What are you talking about? I'm suggesting 'father' worship and myopic nationalism go hand-in-hand and feed each other through ignorance... not whatever you're talking about.

[Kanastrous]

Okay. I probably would have picked that up if you had posted something along the lines of 'father' worship and myopic nationalism go hand-in-hand and feed each other through ignorance.