The Empire's "finest legion" vs The RDA

[Darth Hoth]

I'm sorry, the whole thing with Luke using Force Speed and the stamina of a Jedi to close in on the walker before hacking through thick armor that required all the penetration of a lightsaber must be unique to Internet Debate Star Wars. You know, that version with the ten-thousand Stormtroopers on Endor.

I've only seen regular Star Wars, where Luke jogs up to the thing as it's plodding by, climbs up, and takes half a second to snip the hinges on a little doggy door in the bottom. That's the version 99.9% of humanity has seen, all of whom would scratch their heads and go "I dunno, like sixty?" if you asked them how many troops were guarding the Endor base.

Without adequate defense from lighter forces, guys with satchel charges will be swarming all over its ankles and roof.

And if the ankles and roof are not vulnerable your satchel charges? This is not the "Pure George Lucas Vision, Style Over Substance Without Numbers Only" AT-AT we are talking about, but the "Internet Debate Star Wars" version which was seen in the film shrugging off the fire of fighter-scale blaster cannon. Why the Hell would a weak spot like the belly hatch necessarily or logically imply that its armour was shit overall?

[Adam Reynolds]

Does this shit even count? Because I seem to recall years worth of "An X-wing can't really solo-kill a Star Destroyer by shooting the shield domes off, that was just a video game, it doesn't count you stupid Trekkie!" and such around here and similar places.

Video games are canon, but only their plot elements are canon. Also they are generally considered the lowest level of canon. However this is all a moot point, the novelization clearly states that the shield protects both Endor and the Death Star.

At the center of the briefing room was a large, circular light-table, projected above which a holographic image of the unfinished Imperial Death Star hovered beside the Moon of Endor, whose scintillating protective deflector shield encompassed them both.

"Sir, the shield around the Death Star has lost its power."
Ackbar looked at the view screen; the electronically generated web was gone. The moon, and the Death Star, now floated in black, empty, unprotected space.

How many troopers did we see? Maybe a hundred? So we're supposed to believe that literally 99% or more of the Imperial forces were never seen, never heard from, never referred to by anyone participating in the battle, didn't react in any way whatsoever to the Rebel attack they were placed there specifically to thwart, and in fact all died quite surprised when the Rebels undermined their base and blew them up as they were sitting around unseen and unmentioned doing nothing?

To the troopers guarding the front entrance, there was no evidence of major Rebel forces, meaning that they had little reason to send much in the way of forces to the area. For all they knew, the attack at the rear entrance was a diversion and the Rebels had additional units primed to attack the front of the complex. This is similar to what happened with the German Army on D-Day, Hitler assumed that the main Allied force would land on Pas-de-Calais and therefore did not commit his full forces until much too late. We also know that the Empire at least had a single AT-AT at the front of the facility meaning that at least their heaviest weapon was not deployed.

Because they're wearing near-luminous white armor in a brown and green forest while firing highly visible blaster bolts, making them about a thousand times easier to spot and kill than real world troops? Because even if these are Internet Debate Version Stormtroopers who can actually hit things, and not the movie ones whose incompetence is a pop cultural meme, they're still going to have to deal with RDA infantry trying to attack them?

Which has what relevance on the issue of whether or not the Stormtroopers could easily shoot down the RDA gunships? It doesn't matter if the RDA can find where the stormtroopers are, they would still be able to defeat the extremely slow gunships. Anyway, I would be surprised if the garrison on Endor lacks a few shoulder fired PLX-2M missile launchers with a range of 50 kilometers and standard heat-seeking abilities. Regarding the RDA infantry, they would at best have equal firepower to the stormtroopers without the sophisticated imaging systems. Unless they had massively overwhelming numbers, they would probably be unable to defeat the stormtroopers units.

In one direction.

Which has what relevance on their total range?

Walkers are slow as shit and gunships can hover.

Oh so they can hover and be effortlessly blasted out of the sky, great idea. And what does a walker's speed have to do with their accuracy? Additionally, this slow speed that you keep deriding is part of what makes AT-AT fire so accurate, armored vehicles can almost never accurately fire at their maximum speed.

I'm sorry, the whole thing with Luke using Force Speed and the stamina of a Jedi to close in on the walker before hacking through thick armor that required all the penetration of a lightsaber must be unique to Internet Debate Star Wars. You know, that version with the ten-thousand Stormtroopers on Endor.

While it might not require the speed and stamina of a Jedi to successfully reach the walker under Hoth-like conditions, where the Empire was clearly not worried about close in protection given that the Rebels were clearly in a fixed defensive position where they would be unable to launch close in attacks. It was pure chance that Luke was able to successfully attack the AT-AT in the way he did. Only he would have the proper weapon as well as being in the proper position to pull off the maneuver that he did.

I've only seen regular Star Wars, where Luke jogs up to the thing as it's plodding by, climbs up, and takes half a second to snip the hinges on a little doggy door in the bottom. That's the version 99.9% of humanity has seen, all of whom would scratch their heads and go "I dunno, like sixty?" if you asked them how many troops were guarding the Endor base.

If it takes a lightsaber to strip the hinges, I wouldn't be to worried about a random soldier having that ability.

Without adequate defense from lighter forces, guys with satchel charges will be swarming all over its ankles and roof.

Oh you mean adequate defense like all those AT-STs and stormtroopers around the base. Also, how would guys with satchel charges get on top of the walker in the first place? Darth Hoth covered the issue of satchel charges.

[Raptor_Pilot]

Sorry for the delay, I just got home from work.

Endor is a large place. I doubt that they have enough nukes to nuke every forest that they see, and then the radiation would make them trying to cross the forest rather suicidal. It also removes almost all of their possible cover, as well as food and water.
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If ambushed at close range, trying to launch a handheld nuke would be suicidal.
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A big disguised ditch could drop a lot of them. Other traps could work too.
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Launching a hand held nuke at close range would be suicidal.
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RDA gunships are low flying, so nuking them would be suicidal.
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A hand held sub kiloton nuke won't do much to an AT-AT, which outranges those hand held nukes and is capable of withstanding them without much damage.
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Dug in defensive positions? Nuke 'em!

You may have a point here.
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In this case, not really. MI handheld weapons are incapable of piercing stormtrooper armor. Aside from a limited amount of handheld nukes that are probably suicidal to use against low flying gunships, they have no anti air or anti armor capabilities.
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Airburst nukes will clean up gunships,

And the MI

You keep trying to refute my point by stating that the tactics involved are suicidal. This is true, but my point is that the M.I. are perfectly willing to engage in suicidal tactics. In the movie, after they kill the two big cannon bugs, the M.I. immediately advance into the area that was lit up by their nukes. This seems to imply that either there is no threat of radiation from the type of nukes they use, or they just don't care about the effects of radiation on a few thousand troopers.

My entire argument is based on the psychology that we see in the film. The M.I. seriously don't care about expending a few thousand troopers at a time, so long as the mission objective is completed. It doesn't matter if ambushes or traps take out dozens of troopers at a time, they will press on towards their objectives regardless of the cost. Also, considering that the M.I. in this scenario massively outnumber all other opposing forces, they will win based on strength of numbers, and willingness to use nuclear weapons at close range, against just about any target they see.

Also, you failed to address my earlier point about the AT-AT's: You don't need to damage the AT-AT directly, just attack the ground under it's feet, and knock it over. Once an AT-AT is knocked off of it's feet, it is useless. Just shoot the nuke at the ground under the feet, and it will fall over into the crater.

I also don't understand what you are getting on about food and water, there was no mention of a time frame for this scenario in the original post, thus food and water would be carried by the troops involved as part of their gear. The original scenario stated that this occurs after the battle of Endor is already over (I.E. after the Endor Bunker is already destroyed) thus the stormtroopers have no way to resupply either. Also, if you are completely discounting any form of space support, then the RDA have no additional supplies either, so fuel and ammo for gunships will run out rather quickly. Thus it seems that if one of the participating sides is going to stand a chance of winning, without the scenario devolving into extended guerilla operations in the forest, then the scenario needs to be won as quickly as possible. This will only increase the M.I.'s willingness to use nuclear weapons and expend more casualties in order to win.

MI handheld weapons are incapable of piercing stormtrooper armor.

What are you basing this on? The bullets we see in the Starship Troopers movie are solid and colored black, and they easily penetrate the armored carapace of soldier bugs and tanker bugs. They can also easily penetrate the armor that the troopers themselves wear (even though such armor doesn't appear to be effective against anything). My point is, the actual penetrating power of the ammunition is never established. Considering that stormtrooper armor looks like it's made of plastic, and never seems to protect against even the smallest blasters, I would argue against this statement. We do see the ewoks stone-tipped arrows bounce off of the stormtrooper armor, but even a 9mm pistol round has far superior penetrating power than a bow and arrow from the stone age.

[Beleg Valar]

I think perhaps a little too much faith is being put in those hand-held nukes. As I recall from the movie (I apologize, it has been a while since I saw it) they were mainly used to destroy the large, but probably very poorly defended AA bugs, and to flush out some holes. I saw no evidence of massive environmental damage, more just a firestorm effect. It would probably be quite lethal to basic troops, but fairly useless against armor or against the ground said armor was standing on. They could destroy a lot of trees, but I doubt that would help them terribly much in the long run. Remember, the Ewoks in this are the side entertainment, not the main event.

The Pandora boys I can't see as much better off. Their armor couldn't stop the (admittedly huge) arrows of the locals, their aircraft were maneuverable but quite slow, and their weapons relied on line of sight, non-augmented attack. They did have those awesome looking walkers, but with glass covering the crew they would be getting taken out quite easily. even their huge floating fortress . . .thing was vulnerable to attack by grenades, and had just thick glass to cover the crew. I'd expect the nukes or the Star Wars blasters to make easy work of them.

As for the Imperial armor, its generally accepted that it is fairly good against kinetic attacks, especially small point attacks like bullets. We do see some casualties from Ewok rocks, but the attacks did not appear to be breaking through the armor. I would theorize the armor is designed to deflect projectiles, but is not terribly padded on the inside to protect from large kinetic energy impacts. Just a theory, but the armor designers were probably much more concerned about bullet survivability than large rock survivability. That aside, the armor does have weak points so the stormies are by no means invulnerable to the fire of the other two groups, just much more resilient.

The AT-AT will be a little limited in the close environment of the forest, but it is still freaking impossible to kill. The only reasonably way (In my opinion) that it would be destroyed is the Skywalker method, slipping up underneath it with explosives to plant. To do this they would need to strip away its protection, (In a close environment I'd expect both stormtroopers and AT-STs nearby, all of which can see better through the dense undergrowth than can their opponents.) get close enough to plant the explosives on a vehicle that can move at 60 kph and run over pretty much anything in its path, and create an opening in it in order to chuck some explosives through. We did not see evidence of magnetic grapples on either of the opposing forces, not a sort of high power cutting tool you would need to get inside. They may be able to land on it, but that doesn't help them much when they are standing on the thick out shell.

End result:
RDA would probably fight well for their weight, but they lack the numbers to make up for the technology disadvantage. Stormtroopers would reap a bloody slaughter, but in the end I gotta give it to the 500,000 man army of the MI. Even with their shortcomings, the invulnerability of the AT-AT, and their inability to deal with air power, there are too freaking many of them. The MI have ~50,000 nukes to throw about (5 per platoon, 50 man platoon), and can soak up the casualties while doing so. They may be sup-kiloton weapons with minimal anti-air and anti-armor ability, but toss around enough of them and everything will die. As for the AT-AT, hell, they've got enough people to lasso it and pull it down. After everything else is dead they just need to figure out how to deal with it, and if a tribe of Ewoks can take care of an AT-ST I think they've got a shot.

[DudeGuyMan]

And if the ankles and roof are not vulnerable your satchel charges? This is not the "Pure George Lucas Vision, Style Over Substance Without Numbers Only" AT-AT we are talking about, but the "Internet Debate Star Wars" version which was seen in the film shrugging off the fire of fighter-scale blaster cannon.

Oh man, fighter-scale blaster cannons. Anyone who's seen Internet Debate Star Wars knows those things are kiloton level easy, so if an AT-AT can withstand those then it must be untouchable. I can never decide which was more dramatic, the thousands and thousands of Stormtroopers at the Battle of Endor, or the massive clouds of steam being raised during the Battle of Hoth as nuclear-level energy was released willy-nilly into the snowy environment. Hur hur.

If the weapons in play were even fractionally as powerful as people like to pretend, the whole battle would have consisted of Luke going "That armor is too thick for blasters, just strafe their feet!" followed by walkers stumbling to their doom over craters vaporized out of the ice. What the fuck, am I the first person to think of this? You assholes are sitting here with a straight face claiming Starship Troopers nukes would do nothing to an AT-AT just because they shrugged off those pissant pew-pew guns in ESB?

Listen it's okay, I don't like Avatar or the RDA enough to care about this. I didn't even remember that the guys in Avatar were called RDA until this thread. I conceed everything.

There were thousands and thousands and thousands of Stormtroopers on Endor who were never seen and had no impact on the battle, but they would all show up for this versus scenario. They're all crack shots who would effortlessly shoot down aircraft from a mile away with their rifles that are like grenade launchers. The torrent of missiles pouring toward their incredibly visible positions wouldn't deter them at all. The RDA infantry wouldn't be able to kill any of them either, because Stormtrooper armor is totally immune to all weapons except every weapon anyone ever fired at it in a Star Wars movie.

AT-AT walkers are invincible, because they stood up to Star Wars fighter lasers which are all like nuclear weapons. That one dish pointing into the sky on Endor covered the entire planet, because the novel totally overrides the movie which shows no such coverage. I guess? And some videogame. Or whatever I'm supposed to say to that. Am I forgetting anything?

I conceed everything. Have fun with your thousands of soldiers who never appear on screen but are totally there, and your nuke-level weapons that an unenlightened peon might mistake for dipshit little pew-pew guns. The rest of geekdom only calls you rabid absurd Star Wars partisans because... because... secretly they all give a fuck about Star Trek or something. Whatever.

But seriously, there is way too much ingrained forum orthodoxy that has to be slowly and painfully argued against to make debating anything other than "Star Wars totally wins! Yay!" any sort of fun around here. Any discussion starts with all of the above assumed true, and it falls upon the other side to find a way to win against invincible Stormtroopers and TIE fighters that can scourge continents with their mighty lasers that R2-D2 can survive a headshot from.

If you argue that the walkers on Hoth absorbed anything remotely resembling nuke-level firepower while walking around on snow but never fucking noticed the total lack of steam, you're not even fucking trying and are just jerking off to Star Wars. If you do so and don't immediately have everyone in the thread calling you on it, well I won't tell you what that says. I made a "Rebel strike force versus WW1" thread and had angry fanatics flaming me because I wouldn't let the Rebels kill the 1918 British with their spaceship, for chrissakes. What the fuck. Blow me.

[adam_grif]

One thing I'd like to point out is that even if SW blasters are KT level and SW armor can stop it, that doesn't mean they can defend against actual nuclear blasts. Being able to magically absorb and ignore stupid amounts of heat doesn't mean you're immune to other kinds of damage (i.e. the shockwave), since the mechanisms are obviously quite different. Every time we see damage being done in SW, its in the form of a blaster of some kind. The exceptions I can think of are the Ewok rocks and arrows killing Stormtroopers (lol) despite their supposedly indestructible armor, and the Bridge of the Executor getting completely taken out by the A-wing crashing into it at a rather low relative velocity. Either way, unless we have some way to determining how resilient to non-thermal damage AT-AT legs are, then we can't really say whether they can survive the ST tac nukes or not.

Does this shit even count? Because I seem to recall years worth of "An X-wing can't really solo-kill a Star Destroyer by shooting the shield domes off, that was just a video game, it doesn't count you stupid Trekkie!" and such around here and similar places.

They just want to have their cake and eat it too. Although that example is pretty amusing, the canon vs non canon is usually "it's non canon if it contradicts higher canon", HOWEVER even if one work contradicts higher canon on one thing, they will still accept other parts of it as canonical. I'm not entirely comfortable with that, but whatever.

[Darth Hoth]

*SNIP whining*

And fuck you, too, dumb-ass. You and Sarevok were talking about the RDA, which does not have nuclear weapons in its satchel charges (if it does even have satchel charges). Or are you going to argue that blaster cannon have less firepower than hand blasters (which Han Solo fired in the original film), now? Can you show any evidence for why a weapon that is in the single-digit megajoules should break its armour other than "Because I think so and you guys are wankers, and pew-pew guns and WWI mustard gas and whatever"?

By the way, since you have now decided that you were talking about the SST nukes, how about you quantify those?

[Star Wars 888]

Sorry for the delay, I just got home from work.

Endor is a large place. I doubt that they have enough nukes to nuke every forest that they see, and then the radiation would make them trying to cross the forest rather suicidal. It also removes almost all of their possible cover, as well as food and water.
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If ambushed at close range, trying to launch a handheld nuke would be suicidal.
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A big disguised ditch could drop a lot of them. Other traps could work too.
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Launching a hand held nuke at close range would be suicidal.
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RDA gunships are low flying, so nuking them would be suicidal.
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A hand held sub kiloton nuke won't do much to an AT-AT, which outranges those hand held nukes and is capable of withstanding them without much damage.
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Dug in defensive positions? Nuke 'em!

You may have a point here.
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In this case, not really. MI handheld weapons are incapable of piercing stormtrooper armor. Aside from a limited amount of handheld nukes that are probably suicidal to use against low flying gunships, they have no anti air or anti armor capabilities.
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Airburst nukes will clean up gunships,

And the MI

You keep trying to refute my point by stating that the tactics involved are suicidal. This is true, but my point is that the M.I. are perfectly willing to engage in suicidal tactics. In the movie, after they kill the two big cannon bugs, the M.I. immediately advance into the area that was lit up by their nukes. This seems to imply that either there is no threat of radiation from the type of nukes they use, or they just don't care about the effects of radiation on a few thousand troopers.

My entire argument is based on the psychology that we see in the film. The M.I. seriously don't care about expending a few thousand troopers at a time, so long as the mission objective is completed. It doesn't matter if ambushes or traps take out dozens of troopers at a time, they will press on towards their objectives regardless of the cost. Also, considering that the M.I. in this scenario massively outnumber all other opposing forces, they will win based on strength of numbers, and willingness to use nuclear weapons at close range, against just about any target they see.

Also, you failed to address my earlier point about the AT-AT's: You don't need to damage the AT-AT directly, just attack the ground under it's feet, and knock it over. Once an AT-AT is knocked off of it's feet, it is useless. Just shoot the nuke at the ground under the feet, and it will fall over into the crater.

I also don't understand what you are getting on about food and water, there was no mention of a time frame for this scenario in the original post, thus food and water would be carried by the troops involved as part of their gear. The original scenario stated that this occurs after the battle of Endor is already over (I.E. after the Endor Bunker is already destroyed) thus the stormtroopers have no way to resupply either. Also, if you are completely discounting any form of space support, then the RDA have no additional supplies either, so fuel and ammo for gunships will run out rather quickly. Thus it seems that if one of the participating sides is going to stand a chance of winning, without the scenario devolving into extended guerilla operations in the forest, then the scenario needs to be won as quickly as possible. This will only increase the M.I.'s willingness to use nuclear weapons and expend more casualties in order to win.

MI handheld weapons are incapable of piercing stormtrooper armor.

What are you basing this on? The bullets we see in the Starship Troopers movie are solid and colored black, and they easily penetrate the armored carapace of soldier bugs and tanker bugs. They can also easily penetrate the armor that the troopers themselves wear (even though such armor doesn't appear to be effective against anything). My point is, the actual penetrating power of the ammunition is never established. Considering that stormtrooper armor looks like it's made of plastic, and never seems to protect against even the smallest blasters, I would argue against this statement. We do see the ewoks stone-tipped arrows bounce off of the stormtrooper armor, but even a 9mm pistol round has far superior penetrating power than a bow and arrow from the stone age.

Most of the commanders of the MI may not care much about casualties, but the MI will. Why would they fire a nuclear warhead at a guy a few feet away?

Those handheld nukes don't have enough kinetic energy to knock over an AT-AT. AT-ATs have four legs. Hitting its legs won't really knock the AT-AT down unless if you hit it REALLY hard. Hitting an AT-AT's side would have a better chance of knocking it over than hitting its legs.

In the OP I stated that the 3 sides were essentially on opposite sides of Endor, so the battle will last for more than a day. It'll likely last long enough for logistics to be an issue, and nuking every forest wouldn't help that much.

[Raptor_Pilot]

Most of the commanders of the MI may not care much about casualties, but the MI will. Why would they fire a nuclear warhead at a guy a few feet away?

If the bad guys are only a few feet away, then they can just use their rifles and grenades. Even without useful sights, you can hit a man size target out to about 75 yards (60 meters or so) without too much difficulty. (see: Smoothbore Musket effective ranges.) If you can hit a guy with a musket, you can definitely hit him with a rifle. My impression of the Endor environment would put effective engagement ranges at about 100 yards or less, so nukes would be used to 'prep' an area before the M.I. moved in, or to clear a significantly large area of forest to set up a base camp, without the worry of enemies sneaking up on you through the trees.

Those handheld nukes don't have enough kinetic energy to knock over an AT-AT. AT-ATs have four legs. Hitting its legs won't really knock the AT-AT down unless if you hit it REALLY hard. Hitting an AT-AT's side would have a better chance of knocking it over than hitting its legs.

As you like, my point is you shouldn't discount the nuclear rockets so quickly, especially given the fact that the M.I. would have tens of thousands of them available to the whole force. Also, the actual energy released during detonation is never quantified, but the explosions looked very large and impressive for such a small device. The actual warhead is about the size of a baseball.

In the OP I stated that the 3 sides were essentially on opposite sides of Endor, so the battle will last for more than a day. It'll likely last long enough for logistics to be an issue, and nuking every forest wouldn't help that much.

Okay, I must have misunderstood. If you are including logistics in this scenario, are you also including support from the fleet? The M.I. showed up on Klendathu with a very large support fleet, with both combat ships and support tenders. They also have space to ground air support with those ground attack craft with super "space napalm bouncing bettie bombs". (Whatever they are, it looked like super sized napalm.)

If you include the fleet they arrive in, then logistics wouldn't be much of a problem for the M.I. either, in fact, according to the rules of the scenario, they would be the only ones with the ability to resupply from space, considering the Imperial fleet isn't there, and the RDA lack the capability to secure the space around the planet.

[Imperial528]

If you include the fleet for the MI, then the landers (and possibly fighter/corvette escort) which brought the Imperial 501st to Endor in the first place should be there too, as should the RDA's ISV and complement shuttle craft.

Now you've made the MI lose even harder.

[Star Wars 888]

If the bad guys are only a few feet away, then they can just use their rifles and grenades. Even without useful sights, you can hit a man size target out to about 75 yards (60 meters or so) without too much difficulty. (see: Smoothbore Musket effective ranges.) If you can hit a guy with a musket, you can definitely hit him with a rifle. My impression of the Endor environment would put effective engagement ranges at about 100 yards or less, so nukes would be used to 'prep' an area before the M.I. moved in, or to clear a significantly large area of forest to set up a base camp, without the worry of enemies sneaking up on you through the trees.

If a MI group is ambushed by an equal group of stormtroopers, the stormtroopers will have the advantage. The stormtroopers will have the element of surprise and will have a greater ability to do damage - their blaster rifles can one shot a MI with a direct hit, but a MI's gun will merely injure a stormtrooper. For every hit that the stormtroopers inflict, the MI will have to hit multiple times to do the same amount of damage. Also, the stormtroopers can use stun grenades.

As you like, my point is you shouldn't discount the nuclear rockets so quickly, especially given the fact that the M.I. would have tens of thousands of them available to the whole force. Also, the actual energy released during detonation is never quantified, but the explosions looked very large and impressive for such a small device. The actual warhead is about the size of a baseball.

Yet handheld nukes in the sub kiloton range won't do much to an AT-AT.

Okay, I must have misunderstood. If you are including logistics in this scenario, are you also including support from the fleet? The M.I. showed up on Klendathu with a very large support fleet, with both combat ships and support tenders. They also have space to ground air support with those ground attack craft with super "space napalm bouncing bettie bombs". (Whatever they are, it looked like super sized napalm.)

If you include the fleet they arrive in, then logistics wouldn't be much of a problem for the M.I. either, in fact, according to the rules of the scenario, they would be the only ones with the ability to resupply from space, considering the Imperial fleet isn't there, and the RDA lack the capability to secure the space around the planet.

Um, "if you are including logistics in this scenario" is sort of a given. It's not a question of whether or not I include it, it simply would naturally matter in a battle (or war) over a planet.

And no, neither of the sides get space support in this scenario. Food and water would logically be available in forests, as would whatever food and water they have with them.

[D.Turtle]

I love how Starwars888 always try to put logistics into the game when the side he wants to win (or lose) doesn't.

The mobile infantry landed in their dropships, using these to get in close to their objectives. These dropships are capable of reaching orbit on their own power, so will be able to relocate those forces anywhere on the planet. Taking away their dropships would be deliberately crippling any and all effectiveness the mobile infantry has, since they are completely dependent on and built around those dropships. Might as well take away any and all vehicles employed by the stormtroopers and the RDA at that point and have all the forces starve to death before reaching any other force.

The Ewoks have no long-range mobility at all, except walking.

The stormtroopers (going by the standards Starwars888 set) will have several AT-STs and at least one AT-AT. This will allow them to a few dozen troopers at about 40mph. They'll get somewhere, sometime.

The RDA has a few dozen helicopter-analogues, one large assault ship, and maybe one orbital shuttle. This allows them to move their entire force of at most a few hundred soldiers, including a few dozen walkers, anywhere on the planet at a speed of about 100-200mph for most of their forces. The (unarmed) orbital shuttle can obviously move faster, but it is limited in size and can't carry all the forces at once.

So, we have at least several hundred thousand soldiers, that have the strategic mobility on their side (though not the tactical), facing forces of a few hundred (RDA) up to a few thousand (Ewoks, Stormtroopers). If the mobile infantry does not want to fight, they don't have to. None of the other forces can stop them going where ever they want to, or force them to fight.

This means, at the very least, that the Mobile Infantry can't loose.

Since they can choose when, and where to fight, they can face the enemy forces one by one (or even let those forces fight each other first).

The Ewoks have bows and arrows, are somewhat stronger than people, and have a limited amount of catapults. They are outnumberd at least 100 to 1, by a force that has unlimited-ammo fully-automatic rifles. Suffice it to say, I don't think the Ewoks don't have much of a chance.

The RDA is outnumbered about a thousand to one. They are flying relatively slow-moving helicopter-analogues that are very vulnerable to damage to their fins. Their one assault ship (and the shuttle if they have it) is large enough (and slow enough) to be taken out by one of the numerous nukes employed by the mobile infantry. The only real dangerous weapon system they have is the walkers, though I expect them to be capable of being destroyed by massed small arms fire or the grenades of the mobile infantry.

This leaves the Stormtroopers, who have probably the best chance of defeating the mobile infantry, as they are only outnumbered about a 100 to 1. The stormtrooper armor does not provide 100% protection against small arms fire, as they can be penetrated at the joints (as seen by an arrow going through that part). This means that individual stormtroopers are vulnerable to massed small arms fire (not to mention grenades or nukes). The speeder bikes seem quite fragile, and will probably be taken down eventually. This leaves the AT-STs. The AT-STs armor did not seem very thick, looking at the one that got crunched between two logs, so should easily killed by the numerous nukes employed by the mobile infantry, if not by mass grenades or something similar. Since there are tens of thousands of mobile infantry soldiers for each AT-ST, they will go down eventually. Hell, just land a dropship on one

This leaves the AT-AT. Massed nukes should take it eventually. Even if not, it will probably break down before killing several hundred thousand troopers on its own. Hell, if nothing works, the mobile infantry can just retreat to the other side of the planet every now and then and let the thing break down or the soldiers starve to death eventually.

[Star Wars 888]

I love how Starwars888 always try to put logistics into the game when the side he wants to win (or lose) doesn't.

The mobile infantry landed in their dropships, using these to get in close to their objectives. These dropships are capable of reaching orbit on their own power, so will be able to relocate those forces anywhere on the planet. Taking away their dropships would be deliberately crippling any and all effectiveness the mobile infantry has, since they are completely dependent on and built around those dropships. Might as well take away any and all vehicles employed by the stormtroopers and the RDA at that point and have all the forces starve to death before reaching any other force.

If the RDA and the mobile infantry get space support, then why can't the imperials get their fleet at Endor? If that's the case there isn't really much point in discussing this.

The Ewoks have no long-range mobility at all, except walking.

What about those gliders that they have

The stormtroopers (going by the standards Starwars888 set) will have several AT-STs and at least one AT-AT. This will allow them to a few dozen troopers at about 40mph. They'll get somewhere, sometime.

Or, if we give them space support like you want to give to the other sides, they can simply destroy the MI and RDA from space.

The RDA has a few dozen helicopter-analogues, one large assault ship, and maybe one orbital shuttle. This allows them to move their entire force of at most a few hundred soldiers, including a few dozen walkers, anywhere on the planet at a speed of about 100-200mph for most of their forces. The (unarmed) orbital shuttle can obviously move faster, but it is limited in size and can't carry all the forces at once.

Is the top speed of those gunships quantified? Were they moving at top speed in the battle scenes?

So, we have at least several hundred thousand soldiers, that have the strategic mobility on their side (though not the tactical), facing forces of a few hundred (RDA) up to a few thousand (Ewoks, Stormtroopers). If the mobile infantry does not want to fight, they don't have to. None of the other forces can stop them going where ever they want to, or force them to fight.

A star destroyer one shots their drop ship. Or a bunch of AT-ATs destroy it, although this is debatable since I don't think that the maximum attack range of an AT-AT is quantified.

This means, at the very least, that the Mobile Infantry can't loose.

Actually, the MI can lose. They cannot take down an AT-AT and cannot reliably take down gunships.

Since they can choose when, and where to fight, they can face the enemy forces one by one (or even let those forces fight each other first).

Realistically wouldn't the imperials and RDA want to ally themselves against the MI? The MI want to take control of the planet, which would go against the other two's motives. However, the RDA doesn't want to actually capture Endor; they want that metal. The imperials could say "hey fight with us and we'll give you that metal".

The Ewoks have bows and arrows, are somewhat stronger than people, and have a limited amount of catapults. They are outnumberd at least 100 to 1, by a force that has unlimited-ammo fully-automatic rifles. Suffice it to say, I don't think the Ewoks don't have much of a chance.

The number of Ewoks on Endor hasn't been quantified. There may be millions of them.

The RDA is outnumbered about a thousand to one. They are flying relatively slow-moving helicopter-analogues that are very vulnerable to damage to their fins. Their one assault ship (and the shuttle if they have it) is large enough (and slow enough) to be taken out by one of the numerous nukes employed by the mobile infantry. The only real dangerous weapon system they have is the walkers, though I expect them to be capable of being destroyed by massed small arms fire or the grenades of the mobile infantry.

Yet their gunships outmatch anything the MI has. To fire their handheld nukes at the low flying gunships would be suicidal.

This leaves the Stormtroopers, who have probably the best chance of defeating the mobile infantry, as they are only outnumbered about a 100 to 1. The stormtrooper armor does not provide 100% protection against small arms fire, as they can be penetrated at the joints (as seen by an arrow going through that part). This means that individual stormtroopers are vulnerable to massed small arms fire (not to mention grenades or nukes). The speeder bikes seem quite fragile, and will probably be taken down eventually. This leaves the AT-STs. The AT-STs armor did not seem very thick, looking at the one that got crunched between two logs, so should easily killed by the numerous nukes employed by the mobile infantry, if not by mass grenades or something similar. Since there are tens of thousands of mobile infantry soldiers for each AT-ST, they will go down eventually. Hell, just land a dropship on one

Stormtroopers have an advantage over the MI given equal numbers. In this scenario they're outnumbered, but they'd still take down a large number of MI. A legion has about 10,000 troops. Despite the incompetence of movie Stormtroopers, they're still far more intelligent and competent than MI. They outrange the MI, will likely get the first shots off due to their sensors, and will be able to take down MI at a faster rate; a blaster rifle can kill or disable a MI with a direct hit, but a MI will have to hit a stormtrooper multiple times or hit them at vulnerable points to kill or disable them.

Therefore, 100 stormtroopers will have a greater kill percentage while starting off from a longer range against 100 MI.

AT-STs aren't that tough though, so they won't be that big of a factor in combat. They also seem to suck at scouting too.

This leaves the AT-AT. Massed nukes should take it eventually. Even if not, it will probably break down before killing several hundred thousand troopers on its own. Hell, if nothing works, the mobile infantry can just retreat to the other side of the planet every now and then and let the thing break down or the soldiers starve to death eventually.

AT-ATs are pretty resistant; they were able to function on Hoth (or were they modified?). They won't have enough range to make it that far, so they'll likely have to stay relatively in place. The Starship Troopers mobile infantry, being the fools that they were in the movie Starship Troopers will try and charge at and take out the AT-AT. An AT-AT has an effective range of 17 kilometers as a lower end estimate, with a rate of fire of about 3 volleys per second, each volley having 2 laser cannon bolts. Even if we were to say that each volley only takes down one MI on average and that the MI can run at 10 kph as an average speed for 17 kilometers, that's over 11,000 MI that would be taken down by a single AT-AT.

A more realistic calculation would be that a volley would take down on average 10 MI since the MI seem to keep themselves grouped together (in fact, in a massed 500,000 infantry charge they'd basically have to keep themselves extremely packed) , the explosion radius from an AT-AT's laser cannons are rather large and AT-ATs are rather accurate. MI would probably have a running speed over 17 kilometers (which is the low end estimate for the attack range of an AT-AT) of about 7 kph (they'd have to carry a lot of gear and would have to keep themselves from running eachother over). That's over 260,000 MI a single AT-AT can take down.

[D.Turtle]

You know, it really is hilarious how you always try to change the scenario after the fact. The only reason I brought the dropships into the whole thing was because you suddenly decided to make the scenario about the logistics of moving those forces over the entire planet and not about fighting the enemy forces. Obviously, if you take away all the support equipment that a force has, they will have difficulty with the logistics. Now, if you want a fight between them, then just fucking do it and don't try to change the scenario when the outcome you want isn't produced.

Now, if you simply want them to fight, then construct a scenario that enables it. Something like:
The stormtroopers are holding the Death Star shield generator. The RDA, Ewoks, and MI are trying to capture it, as that makes them win. No orbital fire support of any kind for the forces.

Tada, a sensible scenario.

P.S. I love how your comparison between 100 Stormtroopers and 100 MI soldiers completely misses the fact that those Stormtroopers are outnumbered one hundred to one or so. So it would be 100 Stormtroopers vs 10000 MI soldiers, or one Stormtrooper vs 100 MI soldiers.

P.P.S. Yes, we saw on Hoth how a single AT-AT was killing hundreds of thousands of people. And not to mention, that I would really like to see the AT-AT engage targets at 17 km on the forest moon of Endor...

[Star Wars 888]

You know, it really is hilarious how you always try to change the scenario after the fact. The only reason I brought the dropships into the whole thing was because you suddenly decided to make the scenario about the logistics of moving those forces over the entire planet and not about fighting the enemy forces. Obviously, if you take away all the support equipment that a force has, they will have difficulty with the logistics. Now, if you want a fight between them, then just fucking do it and don't try to change the scenario when the outcome you want isn't produced.

Since when am I making it about logistics? LOGIC is making it about logistics; logically a battle or war over an entire planet (or moon) would have logistics factored into it.

Now, if you simply want them to fight, then construct a scenario that enables it. Something like:
The stormtroopers are holding the Death Star shield generator. The RDA, Ewoks, and MI are trying to capture it, as that makes them win. No orbital fire support of any kind for the forces.

Except that clearly you want it to be a simple, non complex single engagement without factoring in many of the things that matter in a war so that your strategically and tactically foolish MI can win via a human wave tactic.

Tada, a sensible scenario.


P.S. I love how your comparison between 100 Stormtroopers and 100 MI soldiers completely misses the fact that those Stormtroopers are outnumbered one hundred to one or so. So it would be 100 Stormtroopers vs 10000 MI soldiers, or one Stormtrooper vs 100 MI soldiers.

P.P.S. Yes, we saw on Hoth how a single AT-AT was killing hundreds of thousands of people. And not to mention, that I would really like to see the AT-AT engage targets at 17 km on the forest moon of Endor...

Endor is not all forest. The imperial force can find a relatively open plain. The MI will try and charge, and will get mowed down. The few that are left will not have as large as a numerical advantage against the stormtroopers, who are more powerful than the MI.

The Rebels weren't mowed down by the hundreds of thousands because they had something called cover.

[D.Turtle]

Since when am I making it about logistics? LOGIC is making it about logistics; logically a battle or war over an entire planet (or moon) would have logistics factored into it.

So you take away all logistics they have, and then say: "Look, they fail at logistics!"

Just as you did in your Star Wars vs modern Earth scenario. It was bullshit then, it's bullshit now.

Except that clearly you want it to be a simple, non complex single engagement without factoring in many of the things that matter in a war so that your strategically and tactically foolish MI can win via a human wave tactic.

If you want a complicated scenario, then you can't have simple forces. If you remove all strategic mobility, all the strategic forces, all strategic support, then it should be obvious that you can't have them fail because of strategic concerns.

Dropships are an integral requirement of the mobility of Mobile Infantry. Shuttles, etc. are an integral requirement of the mobility of Stormtroopers. If you take those away - arbitrarily, after the fact - then you can't say: "They lose because they all starve to death before meeting the enemy."

If you want a fight between stormtroopers and MI with no other support, then fucking put them into a scenario where the stormtroopers and MI fight without any support.

Endor is not all forest. The imperial force can find a relatively open plain. The MI will try and charge, and will get mowed down. The few that are left will not have as large as a numerical advantage against the stormtroopers, who are more powerful than the MI.

The Rebels weren't mowed down by the hundreds of thousands because they had something called cover.

And why exactly would the MI charge across an open plain at the enemy? Why won't they just see that nice open plain and shoot their fucking nukes at them?

Why even attack? Why shouldn't they just sit back, and wait for the stormtroopers to attack them?

Again, arbitrary after-the-fact changes to the scenario.

[Star Wars 888]

So you take away all logistics they have, and then say: "Look, they fail at logistics!"

Just as you did in your Star Wars vs modern Earth scenario. It was bullshit then, it's bullshit now.

If you want a complicated scenario, then you can't have simple forces. If you remove all strategic mobility, all the strategic forces, all strategic support, then it should be obvious that you can't have them fail because of strategic concerns.

Dropships are an integral requirement of the mobility of Mobile Infantry. Shuttles, etc. are an integral requirement of the mobility of Stormtroopers. If you take those away - arbitrarily, after the fact - then you can't say: "They lose because they all starve to death before meeting the enemy."

If you want a fight between stormtroopers and MI with no other support, then fucking put them into a scenario where the stormtroopers and MI fight without any support.

*sigh*

If you want to give the MI space support, then why don't the other sides get space support?

The imperials blow up the other forces with a star destroyer.

And why exactly would the MI charge across an open plain at the enemy? Why won't they just see that nice open plain and shoot their fucking nukes at them?

Why didn't they do that when they invaded the bug homeworld?

Why even attack? Why shouldn't they just sit back, and wait for the stormtroopers to attack them?

Had you or any semi competent person been commanding the MI, they might have been smart enough to do that.

Again, arbitrary after-the-fact changes to the scenario.

Star destroyer ftw.

[D.Turtle]

*sigh*

If you want to give the MI space support, then why don't the other sides get space support?

The imperials blow up the other forces with a star destroyer.

I don't want to give them space support. I only brought that stuff into play when you suddenly started putting all the forces as far away from each other and saying the MI fail because they can't march that far.

Thats why you (changed) scenario was bullshit.

Obviously you don't want to add space support if you want a fight between stormtroopers and MI, because then there won't be a fight between stormtroopers and MI because the MI will be killed by the space support.

Why didn't they do that when they invaded the bug homeworld?

Maybe because the bugs were coming out of all of these holes in the ground and didn't have to advance on them across an open plain?

The one time we do see bugs advance across an open plain, the bugs get slaughtered by the thousands.

Since you apparently are too thick to get it so far, I'll try to explain it once again.

If you want to look at what happens in a four way fight between some ground forces from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, and Avatar, then you fucking construct a scenario that results in a fight between those same forces from Star Wars, starship Troopers, and Avatar.

If you want a fight between some space forces from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, and Avatar, then you fucking construct a scenario that results in a fight between those space forces from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, and Avatar.

If you want a fight between the military forces (space and ground) from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, and Avatar, then you fucking construct a scenario that results in a fight between those military forces from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, and Avatar.

So what is it? Do you want a fight between the ground forces? Then make a scenario in which those ground forces fight. Putting them on opposite sides of a planet with no way to make it to the other side and declare them the losers because they couldn't reach the other side is not a failing of those forces, but of you as the creator of that scenario.

[Star Wars 888]

I don't want to give them space support. I only brought that stuff into play when you suddenly started putting all the forces as far away from each other and saying the MI fail because they can't march that far.

Thats why you (changed) scenario was bullshit.

Obviously you don't want to add space support if you want a fight between stormtroopers and MI, because then there won't be a fight between stormtroopers and MI because the MI will be killed by the space support.

Then if the MI get space logistical support, the other sides should too. Therefore, their advantage is nullified, or even reversed since unlike those MI dropships that got destroyed by slow as shit moving balls an Acclamator transport wouldn't be hurt by anything the other sides have.

Maybe because the bugs were coming out of all of these holes in the ground and didn't have to advance on them across an open plain?

The one time we do see bugs advance across an open plain, the bugs get slaughtered by the thousands.

Since you apparently are too thick to get it so far, I'll try to explain it once again.

If you want to look at what happens in a four way fight between some ground forces from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, and Avatar, then you fucking construct a scenario that results in a fight between those same forces from Star Wars, starship Troopers, and Avatar.

If you want a fight between some space forces from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, and Avatar, then you fucking construct a scenario that results in a fight between those space forces from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, and Avatar.

If you want a fight between the military forces (space and ground) from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, and Avatar, then you fucking construct a scenario that results in a fight between those military forces from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, and Avatar.

So what is it? Do you want a fight between the ground forces? Then make a scenario in which those ground forces fight. Putting them on opposite sides of a planet with no way to make it to the other side and declare them the losers because they couldn't reach the other side is not a failing of those forces, but of you as the creator of that scenario.

Then why didn't they send out a decoy force, lure the bugs out and launch a bunch of ICBMs from orbit? Or simply fill the area with radiation and the bugs would die.

[D.Turtle]

Then if the MI get space logistical support, the other sides should too. Therefore, their advantage is nullified, or even reversed since unlike those MI dropships that got destroyed by slow as shit moving balls an Acclamator transport wouldn't be hurt by anything the other sides have.

Don't you fucking get it? I don't give a fuck if they have space support or not. I only give a fuck that the fucking forces fucking fight each other. Who the fuck cares about fucking Acclamators or ISDs or whatever when it was supposedly a fucking fight between a few thousand stormtroopers, a few hundred RDA people, several thousand Ewoks, and hundreds of thousands of MI soldiers?

Can they fight each other? Yes? then I'm fucking happy, and the fucking MI will win because they fucking outnumber the other forces to such a large degree.

Then why didn't they send out a decoy force, lure the bugs out and launch a bunch of ICBMs from orbit? Or simply fill the area with radiation and the bugs would die.

Did you even watch the fucking movie you idiotic fuck?

They thought the fucking bugs were stupid fucking animals not capable of putting up any serious amount of fucking resistance.

See here starting at 0:40.

[Star Wars 888]

Then why didn't they come back rearmed with ICBMs and nuke the bugs?

See? If the MI infantry were smart, then they win.

However, they aren't.

[D.Turtle]

Yes, because nuking an entire planet criss-crossed with deep tunnels in which the bugs could be hiding is so very easy.

Where are they going to get the millions or billions of nukes required to do that?

Instead of stupidly running head-first into the gauntlet above Klendathu again, they decided it might be better to capture a brain bug in order to learn more about the bugs. Which they succeeded at.

[PeZook]

Yes, because nuking an entire planet criss-crossed with deep tunnels in which the bugs could be hiding is so very easy.

Dude, they had a huge fleet. Just return the favor and drop asteroids on Klendathu until the bugs all die from lack of food: if they really cared about winning, no landings would ever be necessary. This is disregarding the fact they managed to lose orbiting ships to slow-ass bug artillery which pretty much requires idiocy with the distances involved.

There's also a glaring, obivious issue with using MI nukes against aerial targets like RDA gunships: can the system do that? What do we know about the fusing on those nukey RPGs? In the movie, they were used exclusively against ground targets. They have some guidance, but seem to be impact fused (as is logical when you use then for demolition of hardened targets like bug-holes and huge artillery pieces)

Though yeah, their numerical advantage would easily let them ovewhelm any prepared position by the RDA. With half a million to one million troops, the RDA could quite possibly run out of ordnance before they managed to inflict enough casualties to stem the tide, and helicopters are still quite vulnerable to small-arms fire: most would be down for repairs after a few sorties.

That said, Star Wars 888 does have a point about logistics. A million men still need food and water. They can't really sustain themselves off the land, so they'll need to engage the enemy fast, within days, unless regularly resupplied. If the stormtroopers manage to force a stalemate, they win: though without much mechanized transport, I don't see how they could do that.

[Star Wars 888]

Yes, because nuking an entire planet criss-crossed with deep tunnels in which the bugs could be hiding is so very easy.

Where are they going to get the millions or billions of nukes required to do that?

Instead of stupidly running head-first into the gauntlet above Klendathu again, they decided it might be better to capture a brain bug in order to learn more about the bugs. Which they succeeded at.

They could have stockpiled a huge amount of ICBMs and then strategically launch them so that the bug homeworld is covered in radiation.

Or launch an asteroid like the bugs did.

Or send in a small decoy force to lure the bugs out and then bomb the bugs that come out.

Or have an advance force of MI in jeeps be equipped with rocket launchers and have a behind force of MI be equipped with handheld nukes. The advance force lures the bugs out, takes a few down, and ride away, and then the behind force launches a bunch of handheld nukes at the bugs.



See? The MI in the movie Starship Troopers are ridiculously incompetent and would lack the intelligence to win this scenario.

[Raptor_Pilot]

Star Wars 888:

You specifically outlined in the original post that this scenario takes place AFTER the battle of Endor. The Death Star is destroyed, the Imperial Fleet is gone, and the Rebel Alliance obviously aren't here anymore because they're not in this scenario.

Thus, according to the rules of the scenario which YOU created, the M.I. are the only faction capable of bringing in supplies from space. The RDA have absolutely NO space superiority capability at all, only an unarmed transport. The M.I. fleet is the only space forces that can show up according to the rules. Your argument about having everyone bring in space forces goes against the rules, and therefore is wrong.

You also continue to assume that a nuclear weapon would have no effect against an AT-AT whatsoever, when this is never demonstrated in the films, (or any book I've read) and thus cannot be determined. I have also given a plausible scenario in which the M.I. can use their nukes to take down an AT-AT which you have continued to ignore.

You have also persisted in this mythical belief that stormtrooper armor will defeat bullets, when we can clearly see in the films that ewoks throwing rocks can take down stormtroopers, even with their so-called uber armor.

I am now bowing out of this thread, it is quite clear that this scenario is unwinnable by any faction present. They would all either starve to death, or run out of ammo before any decision is reached.