Mobile Infantry (novel) versus 40K Space Marines

[keen320]

I'm curious how well the Mobile Infantry from the Starship Troopers novel would do against 40K space marines. All these comparisons about how movie Starship Troopers are so incompetent makes me wonder just how much better the book ones would do (conservatively, I'd say a lot).

I'm too lazy to post everything about the book, but this really old post has most of their capabilities.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=109

The biggest problem I can see is that the novel is more about soldiering than actual combat, and Heinlein doesn't say much about the M.I. weapons.

The scenario:
500 M.I. versus 500 Space Marines plus support units. Both sides are fully equipped and have additional supplies available.
Neither side has orbital assets, except for unarmed transports for orbital drop purposes (no armaments, because that would be almost impossible to adequately compare with the scant information Heinlein gives).
Arena is an uninhabited planet, in an area with a mix of Earth-like terrain types. There is a small, uninhabited city inexplicably within the boundaries of the combat zone.

I know next to nothing about Space Marines except for the PC game (1), so tell me if I've missed something.
Who would win? Also, if this is unbalanced, what numbers on either side would make it balanced?

[DrStrangelove]

It really hard to make any kind of meaningful comparison. MI weapons and durability are virtually unknown outside of the nukes

[Black Admiral]

Are the SMs being drawn from any particular Chapter, or shall we just assume they're the Marines Genericus?

Anyway, ~500 SMs is the line components of five full-strength Companies, each, taking the Codex Battle Company organisation, spilt into six Tactical, two Devastator (heavy weapons) and two Assault Squads. This doesn't count the Company Command Squad, specialists (Techmarines, Chaplains, Librarians, etc.), or vehicle crews and so on.

As far as supporting arms, we'll take those of the Raptors' Third Company during the Taros Campaign, which comes to;
(directly part of 3rd Coy)
2 x Venerable Brother
10 x Rhino (9 x standard, 1 x Damocles-pattern)
4 x Razorback (2 x TL-Lascannon & 2 x TL-Heavy Bolter)
(available from the War Talon's vehicle pool)
4 x Land Raider
6 x Predator (4 x Destructor, 2 x Annihilator)
2 x TL-HB Razorback
1 x Vindicator
7 x Whirlwind (6 x standard, 1 x Hyperios)
8 x Thunderhawk gunship
12 x Thunderhawk Transporter

[Darth Ruinus]

What do you mean by fully equipped? The MI are sometimes armed with nuclear missiles (Rico uses 3 during the raid on the Skinny city in the first chapter, and carried 5 total). The missiles themselves could probably kill most of the Space Marines, but I'm not sure about their vehicles.

I don't know about the ranges of the WH40K weapons, but the MI's missiles (their nukes at least) have ranges measured in miles.

Temples, maybe... or a palace. They were miles outside the area we were sweeping...

At one point Rico nukes a waterworks (or what he thinks is the waterworks) that is supposed to be 3 miles in front of him, so 3+ miles is probably their nuke ranges.

Also, I think they have some sort of energy shield?

We broke at last into the open and saw the boat standing on its tail, heard the ululation of its take-off warning-saw the platoon still on the ground around it, in interdiction circle, crouching behind the shield they had formed.

He threw them the last of the twenty feet and they were passed into the retrieval boat-and with everybody else in, the shield gone and no interdiction, was hit and died instantly.

Although that could entirely be a function of their retrieval ships.

[Batman]

It really hard to make any kind of meaningful comparison. MI weapons and durability are virtually unknown outside of the nukes

Seconded. The MI novel essentially gives zero numbers other than the nukezookas and stardrive speed.
Offhand, I'd give it to the Imperium, because not only are they apparently roughly on par with Wars Empire firepower-wise, they remember about combined arms. Novel ST forces are MI and...um, that's it. Even the CGI series managed to do better that (and was damned good if you ask me).
Novel MI I vote insufficient data.

[Cykeisme]

Aside from the novel showing them use nukes, does it actually state the yield of the warheads?

[Serafina]

Aside from the novel showing them use nukes, does it actually state the yield of the warheads?

To quote from the novel:

It was just a peewee, of course, less than two kilotons nominal yield, with
tamper and implosion squeeze to produce results from a less-than-critical mass - but then who wants to be bunk mates with a cosmic catastrophe?

I don't think that this implies that they use heavier warheads, so two kilotons it is.

[Gil Hamilton]

Alot of stuff is unknown with the MI, but even their non-nuclear ordinance can do significant damage. Rico blows up a warehouse with one of his HE bombs dropped behind him and the Roughneck manage to set most of the Skinny city on fire in the brief time they were on the surface as a warning.

We don't know much else about them, though there are some insights, that they leave their heavy artillery in orbit. They were doing so on Planet P, where the plan was that the Mobile Infantry was on the surface to convince the Bugs to send all their warriors to the surface to drive them off, at which point, the heavy weapons in orbit would destroy the Bugs (this worked less than well due to the fact that the Bugs weren't THAT stupid). Further, they seem to escalate from "Mobile Infantry dropped on a surface" to "plaster the planet the bad guys are on with nukes til it glows".

We aren't even sure what exactly a Flamer, in the context of the MI, is.

[Cykeisme]

Hmm, they have that in common with the Space Marines.. they leave their heavy artillery in orbit.

In fact, that's probably the reason why Space Marines don't carry man-portable kiloton-yield weaponry.. there's always a Strike Cruiser or Battle Barge in orbit, capable of everything from precision bombardment to Exterminatus.

[keen320]

Even MI usually don't carry nukes. I think the main reason they did on that mission was because it was a raid and one of the few times they didn't have orbital support. IIRC they never used them again in the book. But they keep them around because they seem to have a strong "be prepared" mentality.

And because nothing says "We mean business" quite like a nuclear bazooka.

[Gil Hamilton]

Even MI usually don't carry nukes. I think the main reason they did on that mission was because it was a raid and one of the few times they didn't have orbital support. IIRC they never used them again in the book. But they keep them around because they seem to have a strong "be prepared" mentality.

And because nothing says "We mean business" quite like a nuclear bazooka.

We didn't see one used in the actual plot, but Rico mentions that he has carried nuclear weapons before. They also mentioned simulated practice with them in Basic training, with the implication that they are commonplace even with bandits. It's not unreasonable that they do bring man-portable nukes with them on many missions.

[Darth Ruinus]

We didn't see one used in the actual plot, but Rico mentions that he has carried nuclear weapons before. They also mentioned simulated practice with them in Basic training, with the implication that they are commonplace even with bandits. It's not unreasonable that they do bring man-portable nukes with them on many missions.

Rico fires off 3 nuclear missiles in the Skinny raid.

Rico also comments that the Skinny raid was only the second time he'd been allowed to carry nuclear weaponry. Whatever mission they are on probably dictates the weapons they bring (or Rico wasn't allowed to carry nuclear weaponry due to rank or clearance or whatever). But beyond that, not only do they practice with simulated nuclear weaponry, but at one point Hendricks says:

"Uh, yes, sir. You said the sentry didn't have any H-bomb. But he does have an H-bomb; that's just the point. Well, at least we have, if we're the sentry... and any sentry we're up against is likely to have them, too. I don't mean the sentry, I mean the side he's on."

He points out that any of their own sentries would have H-bombs. The MI are also trained to to avert their eyes in case of an atomic detonation, and their helmets compensate for the glare.

[Gil Hamilton]

Rico fires off 3 nuclear missiles in the Skinny raid.

Ah, I meant other than that. That's my bad.

Rico also comments that the Skinny raid was only the second time he'd been allowed to carry nuclear weaponry. Whatever mission they are on probably dictates the weapons they bring (or Rico wasn't allowed to carry nuclear weaponry due to rank or clearance or whatever). But beyond that, not only do they practice with simulated nuclear weaponry, but at one point Hendricks says:

So we are agreeing then?

[Darth Ruinus]

That's alright, I should have guessed that's what you meant.

Yes, I am. I was just adding a quote from the book to cement your argument. Either way, by the OP, it says they are fully equipped, and that involves nuclear bazookas.

[JointStrikeFighter]

"Uh, yes, sir. You said the sentry didn't have any H-bomb. But he does have an H-bomb; that's just the point. Well, at least we have, if we're the sentry... and any sentry we're up against is likely to have them, too. I don't mean the sentry, I mean the side he's on."

He points out that any of their own sentries would have H-bombs. The MI are also trained to to avert their eyes in case of an atomic detonation, and their helmets compensate for the glare.

Um he is obviously saying the sentys can call in H-bomb strikes not "sentries have personal H-bombs"

[Simon_Jester]

It was just a peewee, of course, less than two kilotons nominal yield, with
tamper and implosion squeeze to produce results from a less-than-critical mass - but then who wants to be bunk mates with a cosmic catastrophe?

I don't think that this implies that they use heavier warheads, so two kilotons it is.

At least for the personal rocket launchers.

Really, aside from the nukes, they're screwed. MI fight like helicopter gunships or armored cavalry: mobile, hard-hitting, but they're really not well suited for getting bogged down in close combat. Their best bet is to use their jump jets to play "tag" with the Marines, bouncing away from them faster than they can follow and laying down barrages of nuclear missiles on the Marines' position. The real danger in that situation would be Assault Marines, Space Marines who (like the MI) have jet packs and could possibly keep pace with the MI's retreat.

Even if that doesn't work out well for the Assault Marines, they can expect to take casualties on each jump from the Marines' air support and heavy weapons, if they should have any.

It's possible that the MI have personal anti-armor weapons that would be effective against Space Marines, in addition to the nukes, but there's not much evidence for it, and any tactics that rely on close-quarter use of things like demolition charges are out of the question because of the Marines' superiority in close combat.

We aren't even sure what exactly a Flamer, in the context of the MI, is.

Except that it can kill large numbers of Bugs very quickly in close quarters... I wouldn't be surprised if it was on par with a 40k flamer, or at least closely comparable.

Rico fires off 3 nuclear missiles in the Skinny raid.

Rico also comments that the Skinny raid was only the second time he'd been allowed to carry nuclear weaponry. Whatever mission they are on probably dictates the weapons they bring (or Rico wasn't allowed to carry nuclear weaponry due to rank or clearance or whatever).

It's mostly rank and clearance: Rico is a new trooper, and nuclear weapons seem to be issued only at the fire team level (!) or above.

I can see why. Remember that during one of those simulated training exercises, Rico "fired" a "nuke" that would have taken out one of his own comrades had it been a real incident, and got in a lot of trouble for that. Realistically that's a major concern with nuclear weapons in combat: if the troops firing them aren't rigorously trained to make sure there are no friendlies in the area, it's too easy to score a colossal own-goal against your own side.

So they only issue nuclear weapons to troops who aren't liable to get twitchy and fire them carelessly.

[Darth Ruinus]

"Uh, yes, sir. You said the sentry didn't have any H-bomb. But he does have an H-bomb; that's just the point. Well, at least we have, if we're the sentry... and any sentry we're up against is likely to have them, too. I don't mean the sentry, I mean the side he's on."

Um he is obviously saying the sentys can call in H-bomb strikes not "sentries have personal H-bombs"

Where does he say the sentry is calling in an H-bomb strike? He says that they would have H-bombs if they were the sentries in a combat scenario, and that the enemy side would also have least have H-bombs. Since they train with nuclear weaponry and Rico was fielding 5 nukes in the beginning chapter, why would they have to call in nuke strikes instead of just use their bazookas?

[Captain Seafort]

Where does he say the sentry is calling in an H-bomb strike?

When he corrects himself to say that the enemy sentry's side would have H-bombs

Since they train with nuclear weaponry and Rico was fielding 5 nukes in the beginning chapter, why would they have to call in nuke strikes instead of just use their bazookas?

He didn't say "nuke", he said "H-bomb". He's clearly talking about significantly more powerful devices than Rico's 2kt pee-wees.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Where does he say the sentry is calling in an H-bomb strike? He says that they would have H-bombs if they were the sentries in a combat scenario, and that the enemy side would also have least have H-bombs. Since they train with nuclear weaponry and Rico was fielding 5 nukes in the beginning chapter, why would they have to call in nuke strikes instead of just use their bazookas?

here:

"Uh, yes, sir. You said the sentry didn't have any H-bomb. But he does have an H-bomb; that's just the point. Well, at least we have, if we're the sentry... and any sentry we're up against is likely to have them, too. I don't mean the sentry, I mean the side he's on."

The sentry doesn't personally have H-bombs.

[CyrilsScribe]

I wonder what the Space Marines would think of the bugs...oh right they would just shoot them like Tyranids. I would imagine that the MI would try to stay at longer range as a bolter is essentially a fully automatic rocket launcher, if they get into close range the marines would destroy them, the marines become frighteningly effective at melee. Remember the Space Marines job is to fight nightmare undead robots, soulless daemons, insane capricious space elves, and possessed crazy genetically engineered monsters, I think they can handle non-enhanced humans with power armor.

[keen320]

I wonder what the Space Marines would think of the bugs...oh right they would just shoot them like Tyranids.

I'm pretty sure bugs use a lot more guns. Also, they burrow and come up underneath you.

Also, MI can (barely) fight bugs underground in their own tunnels, implying that they really aren't too bad at close combat.

I would imagine that the MI would try to stay at longer range as a bolter is essentially a fully automatic rocket launcher, if they get into close range the marines would destroy them, the marines become frighteningly effective at melee.

Not necessarily. While we don't know the main weapons MI use, we do know their idea of grenades is more like most people's idea of a bag of high explosives.

[Darth Ruinus]

"Uh, yes, sir. You said the sentry didn't have any H-bomb. But he does have an H-bomb; that's just the point. Well, at least we have, if we're the sentry... and any sentry we're up against is likely to have them, too. I don't mean the sentry, I mean the side he's on."

I was talking about an MI sentry having an H-bomb, or some other form of nuclear weapon.

[Gil Hamilton]

I wonder what the Space Marines would think of the bugs...oh right they would just shoot them like Tyranids. I would imagine that the MI would try to stay at longer range as a bolter is essentially a fully automatic rocket launcher, if they get into close range the marines would destroy them, the marines become frighteningly effective at melee. Remember the Space Marines job is to fight nightmare undead robots, soulless daemons, insane capricious space elves, and possessed crazy genetically engineered monsters, I think they can handle non-enhanced humans with power armor.

I don't necessarily by that. The fact that the Space Marines bother carrying melee weapons doesn't speak well about them. I mean, who the hell seriously carries swords and chain-axes into combat?

At least for the personal rocket launchers.

Really, aside from the nukes, they're screwed. MI fight like helicopter gunships or armored cavalry: mobile, hard-hitting, but they're really not well suited for getting bogged down in close combat. Their best bet is to use their jump jets to play "tag" with the Marines, bouncing away from them faster than they can follow and laying down barrages of nuclear missiles on the Marines' position. The real danger in that situation would be Assault Marines, Space Marines who (like the MI) have jet packs and could possibly keep pace with the MI's retreat.

Is there any evidence of that? We've got evidence that MI can move as rapidly as cars when they need to over significant distances (quoting Rico, they were parading at forty miles an hour). What do Space Marines got? They've got jump jets, but does that actually allow them to travel rapidly without vehicles?

Even if that doesn't work out well for the Assault Marines, they can expect to take casualties on each jump from the Marines' air support and heavy weapons, if they should have any.

It's possible that the MI have personal anti-armor weapons that would be effective against Space Marines, in addition to the nukes, but there's not much evidence for it, and any tactics that rely on close-quarter use of things like demolition charges are out of the question because of the Marines' superiority in close combat.

We've seen Rico use other weapons, with the Y rack on their suits able to fire bombs that can blow up large structures. They definitely use rockets and bombs that aren't nuclear but do have good range on them.

Besides, why do you think the Space Marines are better in close quarters? Do you have evidence that people who wave swords around is more than a match for someone who is probably going to blast the crap out of a screaming maniac with a barrage of explosives without messing around with actually trying engage in a sparring match with them?

[Agent Sorchus]

Is there any evidence of that? We've got evidence that MI can move as rapidly as cars when they need to over significant distances (quoting Rico, they were parading at forty miles an hour). What do Space Marines got? They've got jump jets, but does that actually allow them to travel rapidly without vehicles?

Yes, Assault Marines are able to keep up with Rhinos and Land Raiders, at least off road (55kph and 48kph). Admittedly a little slower than the MI, but really respectable overall, and yes that is for long distance traveling. My specific source is Salamander, where the Assault Marines participate in a battle after traveling with their Jump packs alongside their armored support.

[Simon_Jester]

I wonder what the Space Marines would think of the bugs...oh right they would just shoot them like Tyranids. I would imagine that the MI would try to stay at longer range as a bolter is essentially a fully automatic rocket launcher, if they get into close range the marines would destroy them, the marines become frighteningly effective at melee. Remember the Space Marines job is to fight nightmare undead robots, soulless daemons, insane capricious space elves, and possessed crazy genetically engineered monsters, I think they can handle non-enhanced humans with power armor.

Unless, possibly, the MI stand off and nuke the fuck out of them.

This breaks down sort of like Space Marines versus Tau Battlesuits. The Tau want to use superior mobility and long range firepower to break up the Marines before they can close to short range where their superior close combat skills and armor against the Tau's close-in weapons come into play. The MI face the same situation.

I wonder what the Space Marines would think of the bugs...oh right they would just shoot them like Tyranids. I would imagine that the MI would try to stay at longer range as a bolter is essentially a fully automatic rocket launcher, if they get into close range the marines would destroy them, the marines become frighteningly effective at melee. Remember the Space Marines job is to fight nightmare undead robots, soulless daemons, insane capricious space elves, and possessed crazy genetically engineered monsters, I think they can handle non-enhanced humans with power armor.

I don't necessarily by that. The fact that the Space Marines bother carrying melee weapons doesn't speak well about them. I mean, who the hell seriously carries swords and chain-axes into combat?

In their own setting it is necessary. They spend so much time at close quarters with beings of superhuman durability that the ability to just chop the damn thing in half with a diamond-coated chainsaw is actually useful.

We've seen Rico use other weapons, with the Y rack on their suits able to fire bombs that can blow up large structures. They definitely use rockets and bombs that aren't nuclear but do have good range on them.

I don't think we know how much damage the Y-rack bombs do; it's substantial, but just how big? And how well-aimed? A weapon physically bolted to the user's back isn't going to have good targeting. It may be better suited for indiscriminate blasting of targets in the general vicinity (which is how Rico uses it) than for blowing up actual armored vehicles.

It's certainly plausible that the MI carry antitank weapons suitable for beating Space Marines, but I'm not sure how much evidence we have about them.

Besides, why do you think the Space Marines are better in close quarters? Do you have evidence that people who wave swords around is more than a match for someone who is probably going to blast the crap out of a screaming maniac with a barrage of explosives without messing around with actually trying engage in a sparring match with them?

Since Space Marines generally hose things down with bolters before charging... yes.

See, you're just pointing at 40k and going "LOL chainswords." There's a lot more to the setting than that, and without taking it into account, your assessment is going to be trivially wrong.