Chaos Space Marine question

[Sarevok]

Something has been bugging me about Chaos forces in 40K. There is only a finite number of Chaos Space Marines. Yet they have been constantly fighting for 10000 years. Should not their numbers dwindle to zero by now ? What happens when a Chaos Space Marine dies ? Is he gone for good or does he merely respawn in the warp or something ?

[Serafina]

Something has been bugging me about Chaos forces in 40K. There is only a finite number of Chaos Space Marines. Yet they have been constantly fighting for 10000 years. Should not their numbers dwindle to zero by now ? What happens when a Chaos Space Marine dies ? Is he gone for good or does he merely respawn in the warp or something ?

Whatever his respective chaos god wants. In the Space Wolf novels, we have at least one resurrected CSM and an attempted mass resurrection.

Other than that, Chaos is still recruiting and creating new Space Marines. That includes training, implanting etc new ones, but in the current canon new traitor marines (after the HH) are also a substantial part of CSM forces, tough the old traitor legions are generally seen as superior.

[Tiwaz]

Well, there are new marines falling to chaos every now and then. (rarely even whole chapters)
So that is one source of new marines.

Then there was novel about Ultramarine Uriel Ventris which contained story where Chaos marines were making cloning marines using Daemonculaba.

And then there are Space Wolf novels regarding Ragnar where "dead" Chaos marines stay in Warp as souls (going even more insane) and can possess dead (to my recollection) bodies of Space Wolves.

At least wiki also hints on possibility of implanting Chaos marine geneseed into new hosts as well.

So multitude of ways to replenish ranks.

Curses... Searching sources made me too slow, but I shall post this anyway.

[Eviscerator]

?

Whatever his respective chaos god wants. .[/quote]

In the case of Lucius from the Emperor's Children, it really reads like Lucius cant be killed unless you take him down using Skitarii or other non-feeling entities and then locking those away

[Sinewmire]

Fabius Bile has assisted the Traitor Legions in creating new Space Marines, although their methods are unpleasant at best. The Honsou books (Storm of Iron, Dead Sky Black Sun) deals with this, a little. We've no idea what the rate of recruitment is though.

[Black Admiral]

Yet they have been constantly fighting for 10000 years.

Just wanting to hit this: they haven't, actually. Yes, it's been 10,000 years in the material universe; for a lot of the CSMs, it's not been more than a few centuries since the Heresy. Time doesn't work the same way in the Warp as it doe sin the material universe.

[Kuja]

Something has been bugging me about Chaos forces in 40K. There is only a finite number of Chaos Space Marines.

Says who?

There's fluff left and right about how the Legions still send guys out to scout new talent. They don't do it at the same rate or with the same ease that the loyalist marines do, but they sure as hell aren't sitting on their asses checking names off the rosters.

Hell, there used to be a bit in the Chaos codex (don't know if it's still there or not) about a Black Legionnaire recruiting a bunch of guys who killed a Space Marine.

[Shroom Man 777]

Some Marines escaped the heresy by using weirdo mumbo-jumbo to flee into the future - ala our present. There were these Heresy-era Marines who disappeared, only to reappear in the present day in those Black Templar Armageddon books. So, like, if yo need enemies you can just have Chaos Space Marines who mysteriously vanished in the past only to reappear to fight you today!

[Stravo]

I was thinking the same thing for some time but the current CSM codex explicitly states that new recruits join the ranks of Chaos all the time. Whole chapters have been known to fall to Chaos but more likely its individual units here and there. Essentially Chaos Space Marines are Space Marines who have decided "Fuck this. I'm not fighting and dying anymore for these fucks, I'm in this for myself." In a way can you blame them? They have given up their humanity, been brainwashed, and have all these unique gifts and talents and have to selflessly give of themselves to save the great horde of humanity. Who oftentimes don't appreciate or are just plain afraid of their "saviors". For what? What reward do you ultimately get as a SM?

It brings to mind a quote from a Cheesy 90's film called "The Prophecy" where Christopher Walken plays the Angel Gabriel and an expert on Angels comments on them saying something to the effect that you have these divine beings who are called upon to do all of God's dirty work, essentially they always have their wings dipped in blood. What kind of creature do you think that would be? The same goes for Space Marines. They don't serve the Emperor by building ruined cities, bringing food to the hungry or providing shelter. They kill. And that's about it. What kind of men does that breed?

So in short the Chaos Space Marines are not a static number, they get new recruits all the time. I think one codex states that the Inquisition believes as many as 50 chapters may have fallen to Chaos over time. That's entire chapters not just the random Tac Squad that decides to go rogue or get seduced over by some Emperor's Children or what have you.

[IvanTih]

I was thinking the same thing for some time but the current CSM codex explicitly states that new recruits join the ranks of Chaos all the time. Whole chapters have been known to fall to Chaos but more likely its individual units here and there. Essentially Chaos Space Marines are Space Marines who have decided "Fuck this. I'm not fighting and dying anymore for these fucks, I'm in this for myself." In a way can you blame them? They have given up their humanity, been brainwashed, and have all these unique gifts and talents and have to selflessly give of themselves to save the great horde of humanity. Who oftentimes don't appreciate or are just plain afraid of their "saviors". For what? What reward do you ultimately get as a SM?

It brings to mind a quote from a Cheesy 90's film called "The Prophecy" where Christopher Walken plays the Angel Gabriel and an expert on Angels comments on them saying something to the effect that you have these divine beings who are called upon to do all of God's dirty work, essentially they always have their wings dipped in blood. What kind of creature do you think that would be? The same goes for Space Marines. They don't serve the Emperor by building ruined cities, bringing food to the hungry or providing shelter. They kill. And that's about it. What kind of men does that breed?

So in short the Chaos Space Marines are not a static number, they get new recruits all the time. I think one codex states that the Inquisition believes as many as 50 chapters may have fallen to Chaos over time. That's entire chapters not just the random Tac Squad that decides to go rogue or get seduced over by some Emperor's Children or what have you.

Also I think that it says somewhere that Chaos Marines recruit from the arenas in the Eye of Terror.

[Junghalli]

In the case of Lucius from the Emperor's Children, it really reads like Lucius cant be killed unless you take him down using Skitarii or other non-feeling entities and then locking those away

Or just killing the guy who killed him shortly afterward, from what I can recall of how it's supposed to work.

[IvanTih]

In the case of Lucius from the Emperor's Children, it really reads like Lucius cant be killed unless you take him down using Skitarii or other non-feeling entities and then locking those away

Or just killing the guy who killed him shortly afterward, from what I can recall of how it's supposed to work.

And then Slaneesh resurrects him.

[Junghalli]

And then Slaneesh resurrects him.

Well if he literally can't be killed no matter what then it won't matter who you get to do the job. I was talking about getting out of the "if somebody kills him and takes any pleasure from it he posesses them" thing.

Don't they have some kind of weapon that attacks the soul directly that they use on warp demons? Maybe they could use that.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

So, a pariah like Jurgen could probably kill him and get away with it...?

[Cykeisme]

Although a significant number of traitor Astartes no longer have funtioning progenoid glands due to Chaos corruption, in many of them, it still works.
I recall very distinctly reading a quote regarding recruits picked up from conquered worlds.. it had something in the gist of one man in a thousand being worthy of being a (loyal) Space Marine, and one in a thousand of those being worthy of being a member of their legion.

Meanwhile, we have Fabius Bile looking into the problem and coming up with temporary solutions every now and then. Considering how inhumane the methods used by the Imperium (or rather, the AdMech) are to multiply geneseed stocks, I don't see why Chaos wouldn't follow suit within the Eye of Terror.

So, a pariah like Jurgen could probably kill him and get away with it...?

Or a full-blown Culexus assassin. Might work.
I always assumed Lucius can be killed, but he's around the same reason why Fabius Bile and Abaddon and other such characters are still around.. they're just that badass.
Lucius just has a little something extra going for him.

[Ugolino]

Night Lord splinter groups recruit from certain worlds, in typical night lord fashion.

Alpha Legion is the most publicly known to recruit legion, and are among the most enthusiastic about it. They also go for converting modern Marines.

World Eater groups have also have been known to convert those Marines unfortunate enough to fall into their hands.

And for some traitors, the Heresy was practically yesterday, as confirmed by the 4e codex.

[Imperial Overlord]

In addition to the above, the Blood Gorgon Traitor Marines have recruiting worlds.

[Cykeisme]

Of note, when they needed a big influx of extra manpower beyond the normal rate of one extra progenoid per successful Astartification , (Sinewmire already stated this) in Storm of Iron they went on an outing to capture a big fortress containing an Adeptus Mechanicus geneseed repository. This was in preparation for the Thirteenth Black Crusade.
Though there is some discrimination against the products of such ventures, they have absolutely no qualms about using geneseed from loyalist legions; one of the Chaos captains involved in the siege on the fortress was in fact Astartified shortly after the Horus Heresy using geneseed taken from dead Imperial Fists.

Then they used a twisted method of progenoid implantation involving turning female slaves into giant daemonic womb-creatures, that birth skinless Marines that need transplanted skin taken from slaves.. so yeah.

[Shroom Man 777]

So CSMs can just as easily steal progenoids from the Marines they slay in battle? That should make the loyalist Marines even more pissed off.

[Uraniun235]

Where do they get new power armor from? Are there factories within the Warp? Do they raid hive-worlds for it? Does it just get conjured out of the ether?

[Purple]

When Horus rebelled, he took with him not only legions of space marines but also a huge part of the imperial army/fleet and whole forge worlds.

After the heresy, those admech are still with them, making them armor.

[Black Admiral]

Where do they get new power armor from? Are there factories within the Warp? Do they raid hive-worlds for it? Does it just get conjured out of the ether?

All of the above, although theft is generally for more advanced Marks of armour and weaponry that they can't copy.

[Chris OFarrell]

I think its also clear that the Imperium has a LOT more Space Marines, as well as the ability to make new ones a LOT easier.

But IMHO to a large extent, the dramatically superior numbers of Marines the Imperium have is largely offset by the fact that the Marines are almost always in combat against everything from Tau to Nids to Necrons to Heritics to Chaos incursions and finally even to the Traitor Legions themselves, tied down across a vastly larger area of space.

And while there is a degree of fracticide inside Chaos, I get the feeling that the Marines mostly stand aloof from it, sending in hoards of slaves and lesser Chaos creatures in these little Eye of Terror fights that are always going on.

As was said earlier, when in that Ultramarines novel one group of CSM's were able to get their hands on a supply of Geensead and take it back to the EOT, it was enough to get Chaos Marine legions going at each other full tilt because it was THAT big of a game changer.

[hongi]

Why don't the Chaos Gods simply wave armour into existence? The Warp is their plaything, you'd think they wouldn't need any of this stealing and squabbling over meagre resources. There are daemons the size of worlds inside the Eye of Terror for Christ's sake. Why not just make millions of forgeworlds?

[Purple]

Two things:
1. Who says there are not demonic forge worlds in there. I am pretty sure there are.
2. The chaos gods have nothing to gain from the minions of chaos wining against the empire or each other. They don't want the chaos marines to win. They want them to fight for their amusement.