A comment on the American education system

[Shinova]

Our K-12 education system sucks. No doubt about it. But our colleges and other universities, especially the most prestigious ones, are a completely different story.

So I think when many people bash the US's education system, they usually concentrate too much on the K-12 and not on the colleges.

Any opinions?

[Tsyroc]

One of my professors said the same more or less. Supposedly as you get into the more advanced graduate degrees American education is among the best. Unfortunately the vast majority of the country doesn't get even close to that amount of education.


Of course this another one of those things where it might not necessarilly be the degrees themselves but the people who go for them.

[Hamel]

The American and Japanese school systems are some of the worst out there.

In America, many of the schools are nothing but prisons with a touch of anarchy.

In Japan, kids are socially repressed and physically abused by the teachers.

Both systems rely on memorization skills that don't necessarily do any good.

[Joe]

Our K-12 education system sucks. No doubt about it. But our colleges and other universities, especially the most prestigious ones, are a completely different story.

So I think when many people bash the US's education system, they usually concentrate too much on the K-12 and not on the colleges.

Any opinions?

Well, obviously college education can't be that bad, else we wouldn't still be the most productive country on the planet.

[Darth Wong]

A good public education system should produce a well-educated populace, not a well-educated elite. A poor K-12 education system coupled with stellar universities produces a well-educated elite and a poorly educated general public.

[Joe]

The American and Japanese school systems are some of the worst out there.

In America, many of the schools are nothing but prisons with a touch of anarchy.

In Japan, kids are socially repressed and physically abused by the teachers.

Both systems rely on memorization skills that don't necessarily do any good.

Rote memorization rules for some subjects. For others it's terrible. The times tables, for example. Rote memorization is good for those.

[Hamel]

The American and Japanese school systems are some of the worst out there.

In America, many of the schools are nothing but prisons with a touch of anarchy.

In Japan, kids are socially repressed and physically abused by the teachers.

Both systems rely on memorization skills that don't necessarily do any good.

Rote memorization rules for some subjects. For others it's terribly. The times tables, for example. Rote memorization is good for those.

I agree. Unfortunately, it seems to be applied to most, if not all aspects of learning.

[Arrow]

I whole heartedly agree that the K-12 system sucks while the Colleges are very good (even though many times the adminstration is questionable).

I see the following problems with K-12:
1) The material is not interesting. Take math class; they hardly ever tell you what you can use the presented formulas for! And when they do, its some dull, simplistic application. They don't explain why need history, or why you should classic lit.

2) Funding. Most schools can't keep up. They can't afford to hire good teachers, so they have to hire slackers. They can't afford new equipment (I graduated from High School in 1998, and the computers were from 1991 and the AV equipment was from the mid-80s. It truly sucked, especially when your going for a CS/Software Engineering degree in college). They can't afford to expand which, especially when combine with a lack of teachers, results in over crowded classrooms.

3) Parents. Mainly the lazy ones who want the schools to raise their children, the fundies who want to cut half of the courses and restrict knowledge, and the 'my kid can do no wrong' ones who won't let the schools discipline the students.

4) Interest. Because of the above factors, many (and in a lot of places, most) kids have no interest in learning. They treat school as joke, and retard other students.

I'm sure others can list many more problems, but from my view, these are the main ones.

[Darth Wong]

We've had whole threads about how to improve the school system before. One of my big beefs would have to be sports; in any given school, the kid with the highest marks is considered a geek loser, while the kid with the strongest arm is considered the pride of the school and its administration, and given special privileges as if to underscore that status.

What does this tell you about how fucked-up American high school priorities are, at both the student and faculty level?

[HemlockGrey]

"If metorites are going to burn up in Earth's atmosphere, why don't they just go around Earth?"


I believe that says all that needs to be said.

[The Dark]

I think Arrow and DW have it pretty much right. Arrow's first point is the teacher's fault (sorry, educators of the board). The teacher is ultimately the one who makes material interesting or boring through their methods. A good teacher (like most of mine) can make a class interesting enough and tough enough that the kids who care do great and the lazy slackers there only because it's mandatory don't enroll and hold the others back. Our AP Physics teacher hasn't had a student fail the test in almost a decade, and our senior English teacher's got almost as good a record.

Point 2 I don't know much about, other than that tying funding to test scores is overall a BAD idea. It makes it so the schools that do poorly don't have the money to buy new textbooks (I work at schools where that's happening now...Mollie Rae Elementary School is one).

The parents are, in the end, the most important part of a student's education. I was one of the lucky ones whose parents were involved and helped me through school. I saw other students far smarter than I am flunk out because their parents gave them no support or discipline at home.

And I agree about sports. Our HS didn't care about most sports. We were a school of band geeks. We (the band) were actually considered the biggest "gang" at the school. There were 350 of us in a school of 5000, compared to the MAYBE 30 on the football team. The thing that really made us odd was that we beat the football team in a flag football game. Music is probably the least appreciated subject in school. It's been strongly suggested in studies that learning music helps with mathematics and patterning (organizing thoughts logically), which are important skills, yet music funding keeps decreasing. It's somewhat depressing to think that some people think pop is the only music that counts.

[Stuart Mackey]

The American and Japanese school systems are some of the worst out there.

In America, many of the schools are nothing but prisons with a touch of anarchy.

In Japan, kids are socially repressed and physically abused by the teachers.

Both systems rely on memorization skills that don't necessarily do any good.

Their is nothing wrong with memorization, it how you use it that counts. If you are not trained how to think then you can memorize anything you like and still be ignorant.

[Joe]

I think Arrow and DW have it pretty much right. Arrow's first point is the teacher's fault (sorry, educators of the board). The teacher is ultimately the one who makes material interesting or boring through their methods. A good teacher (like most of mine) can make a class interesting enough and tough enough that the kids who care do great and the lazy slackers there only because it's mandatory don't enroll and hold the others back. Our AP Physics teacher hasn't had a student fail the test in almost a decade, and our senior English teacher's got almost as good a record.

Point 2 I don't know much about, other than that tying funding to test scores is overall a BAD idea. It makes it so the schools that do poorly don't have the money to buy new textbooks (I work at schools where that's happening now...Mollie Rae Elementary School is one).

The parents are, in the end, the most important part of a student's education. I was one of the lucky ones whose parents were involved and helped me through school. I saw other students far smarter than I am flunk out because their parents gave them no support or discipline at home.

And I agree about sports. Our HS didn't care about most sports. We were a school of band geeks. We (the band) were actually considered the biggest "gang" at the school. There were 350 of us in a school of 5000, compared to the MAYBE 30 on the football team. The thing that really made us odd was that we beat the football team in a flag football game. Music is probably the least appreciated subject in school. It's been strongly suggested in studies that learning music helps with mathematics and patterning (organizing thoughts logically), which are important skills, yet music funding keeps decreasing. It's somewhat depressing to think that some people think pop is the only music that counts.

I agree completely. High School Band, both marching and symphonic, was one of the most rewarding and enriching experiences of my life.

BTW, Dark, did your high school do BOA events?

[Enforcer Talen]

Our K-12 education system sucks. No doubt about it. But our colleges and other universities, especially the most prestigious ones, are a completely different story.

So I think when many people bash the US's education system, they usually concentrate too much on the K-12 and not on the colleges.

Any opinions?

thats been my view for a while.

[neoolong]

"If metorites are going to burn up in Earth's atmosphere, why don't they just go around Earth?"


I believe that says all that needs to be said.

Oh yeah, "Atoms are the smallest lifeform."

[Joe]

"Can you name an industry that has grown extensively in recent years?"

"The tanning bed industry!" (from a fully-tanned girl, in winter)

[The Dark]

I agree completely. High School Band, both marching and symphonic, was one of the most rewarding and enriching experiences of my life.

BTW, Dark, did your high school do BOA events?

We went to Southeast Regionals once. Our good director had died the year before, though, and our head sucked. We did crappy, though our percussion got second. The band I follow most now is the one that split off from our school, Timber Creek. Second year school, placed fourth at Regionals behind Tarpon Springs, Seminole, and Cypress Creek.

We did WGI for guard and drumline, though. That was more fun (since I'm a pit pig by nature).

[Stuart Mackey]

"Can you name an industry that has grown extensively in recent years?"

"The tanning bed industry!" (from a fully-tanned girl, in winter)

"Whats Sandpaper?"
A chap with a BSc in computing to a chap at work who restores aircraft.
Just goes to prove that a degree does not always impart a good education.

[Wicked Pilot]

If you are aggressive, the education is there for the taking. If you don't give a shit, than that's too bad. It's not society's job to spoon feed you.

[Joe]

I agree completely. High School Band, both marching and symphonic, was one of the most rewarding and enriching experiences of my life.

BTW, Dark, did your high school do BOA events?

We went to Southeast Regionals once. Our good director had died the year before, though, and our head sucked. We did crappy, though our percussion got second. The band I follow most now is the one that split off from our school, Timber Creek. Second year school, placed fourth at Regionals behind Tarpon Springs, Seminole, and Cypress Creek.

We did WGI for guard and drumline, though. That was more fun (since I'm a pit pig by nature).

I went to Lassiter. You may have heard of us...we've won several Regionals and were National Champions in 1998 and 2002. I was in the '98 band. However, we LOST a Regional competition in 2000 to Tarpon Springs, and I'm still pissed off about it.

[The Dark]

I went to Lassiter. You may have heard of us...we've won several Regionals and were National Champions in 1998 and 2002. I was in the '98 band. However, we LOST a Regional competition in 2000 to Tarpon Springs, and I'm still pissed off about it.

That was the Regional we were at. I'm from University High. Just so you know, Tarpon hasn't lost a competition in Florida in over 20 years. As far as most of us (Floridian band members I know) are concerned, it's purely the name. They're not that good.

[Joe]

I went to Lassiter. You may have heard of us...we've won several Regionals and were National Champions in 1998 and 2002. I was in the '98 band. However, we LOST a Regional competition in 2000 to Tarpon Springs, and I'm still pissed off about it.

That was the Regional we were at. I'm from University High. Just so you know, Tarpon hasn't lost a competition in Florida in over 20 years. As far as most of us (Floridian band members I know) are concerned, it's purely the name. They're not that good.

No, they're not, I don't think. I have seen four different Tarpon shows and have yet to be impressed. I still believe we got screwed that year; Tarpon gets by with cute props and showy bullshit rather than playing and marching the hell out of their show, and the judges love it.

[Alan Bolte]

I see the following problems with K-12:
1) The material is not interesting. Take math class; they hardly ever tell you what you can use the presented formulas for! And when they do, its some dull, simplistic application. They don't explain why need history, or why you should classic lit.

2) Funding. Most schools can't keep up. They can't afford to hire good teachers, so they have to hire slackers. They can't afford new equipment (I graduated from High School in 1998, and the computers were from 1991 and the AV equipment was from the mid-80s. It truly sucked, especially when your going for a CS/Software Engineering degree in college). They can't afford to expand which, especially when combine with a lack of teachers, results in over crowded classrooms.

3) Parents. Mainly the lazy ones who want the schools to raise their children, the fundies who want to cut half of the courses and restrict knowledge, and the 'my kid can do no wrong' ones who won't let the schools discipline the students.

4) Interest. Because of the above factors, many (and in a lot of places, most) kids have no interest in learning. They treat school as joke, and retard other students.

1. I agree with this in elementary school, and maybe up through middle. A very common complaint among students is that they don't know what they're ever going to use the knowledge for, but in many cases, it's difficult to explain that to a kid. Especially when you're trying to explain to a student that they're learning addition now because they'll use it in every math problem they ever do afterwards, and that those have actual applications. However, the issue is to create an interest in learning in general and an understanding that having a wide range of knowledge is like a mental safety net, the stuff's just good to know, even if you never use a particular part of it. Took me forever to see the point of history, but now I'm glad I've had what little of it I did. Liturature still escapes me in part, in terms of, "of what use is it other than understanding allusions you occasionally hear". But by high school , and maybe middle, a kid shouldn't have to be told why they're learning something, they just need to come in ready to learn, with the general idea in mind that it will help later.
2. Not counting buildings, which are certainly an issue with so many students in trailers and closets, I'm a little uncertain how big an issue funding is. Here in Columbus we've been throwing mass amounts of money at the problem, and are now giving up and cutting back because it just isn't doing any good, and the fraction of government income going to it is getting restrictive. Every building has plenty of recent computers, but they don't get used as much as they might and they certainly aren't a great boon to the education of your average student. I'd wager #3 is a much bigger issue.
3. If someone can find a way to fix this, I'd love to hear it. My mother is a librarian at a local middle school, and she hears from the other teachers these stories of children who do no homework whatsoever. The parents of these children are almost impossible to reach. When it is possible, conferences are arranged. The parent promises to deal with the kid and make him do his homework. Nothing changes. This happens all the time.
4. Sad, but true.

[Alan Bolte]

I see the following problems with K-12:
1) The material is not interesting. Take math class; they hardly ever tell you what you can use the presented formulas for! And when they do, its some dull, simplistic application. They don't explain why need history, or why you should classic lit.

2) Funding. Most schools can't keep up. They can't afford to hire good teachers, so they have to hire slackers. They can't afford new equipment (I graduated from High School in 1998, and the computers were from 1991 and the AV equipment was from the mid-80s. It truly sucked, especially when your going for a CS/Software Engineering degree in college). They can't afford to expand which, especially when combine with a lack of teachers, results in over crowded classrooms.

3) Parents. Mainly the lazy ones who want the schools to raise their children, the fundies who want to cut half of the courses and restrict knowledge, and the 'my kid can do no wrong' ones who won't let the schools discipline the students.

4) Interest. Because of the above factors, many (and in a lot of places, most) kids have no interest in learning. They treat school as joke, and retard other students.

1. I agree with this in elementary school, and maybe up through middle. A very common complaint among students is that they don't know what they're ever going to use the knowledge for, but in many cases, it's difficult to explain that to a kid. Especially when you're trying to explain to a student that they're learning addition now because they'll use it in every math problem they ever do afterwards, and that those have actual applications. However, the issue is to create an interest in learning in general and an understanding that having a wide range of knowledge is like a mental safety net, the stuff's just good to know, even if you never use a particular part of it. Took me forever to see the point of history, but now I'm glad I've had what little of it I did. Liturature still escapes me in part, in terms of, "of what use is it other than understanding allusions you occasionally hear". But by high school , and maybe middle, a kid shouldn't have to be told why they're learning something, they just need to come in ready to learn, with the general idea in mind that it will help later.
2. Not counting buildings, which are certainly an issue with so many students in trailers and closets, I'm a little uncertain how big an issue funding is. Here in Columbus we've been throwing mass amounts of money at the problem, and are now giving up and cutting back because it just isn't doing any good, and the fraction of government income going to it is getting restrictive. Every building has plenty of recent computers, but they don't get used as much as they might and they certainly aren't a great boon to the education of your average student. I'd wager #3 is a much bigger issue.
3. If someone can find a way to fix this, I'd love to hear it. My mother is a librarian at a local middle school, and she hears from the other teachers these stories of children who do no homework whatsoever. The parents of these children are almost impossible to reach. When it is possible, conferences are arranged. The parent promises to deal with the kid and make him do his homework. Nothing changes. This happens all the time. And then the teacher gets blamed in terms of pay and promotion because their students are failing and can't pass the proficiency tests.
4. Sad, but true.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Some of you guys were from Tampa Bay?

I go to Palm Harbor Uni. High.