Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal
Record sale of jets, helicopters is seen as way to counter Iran

msnbc.com news services
updated 9/13/2010 4:44:14 PM ET

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration will soon notify Congress of an arms package for Saudi Arabia worth up to $60 billion, U.S. officials said Monday, a potentially record-breaking deal that may help counter Iran's growing regional muscle.

The deal would apparently represent the largest single U.S. arms sale ever approved. It would allow Saudi Arabia, the most militarily advanced of the Arab Gulf states and one of the richest countries in the world, to buy top-line U.S.-made helicopters and fighter jets with ranges that would span the Middle East and beyond.

Unlike some previous sales to Saudi Arabia, this one is not expected to be derailed by opposition in Congress or from U.S. backers of Israel, who have worried in the past about blunting Israel's military edge over its Arab neighbors.

Iran is now seen by Israel, the Gulf Arab states and the West as a significant and unpredictable threat that has changed the old calculus of the region's balance of power.

The U.S. is realigning its defense policies in the Gulf as Iran improves the range and accuracy of missiles and other weapons that could threaten Israel or U.S. allies in Europe. Besides the Saudi deal, the U.S. has pending or proposed arms sales to Kuwait, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates, and has repositioned some U.S. forces and military assets around the Gulf.

The Pentagon plans to notify Congress of the proposed Saudi sale within about a week, spokesman Col. David Lapan said Monday. Lapan would not confirm details of the Saudi shopping list pending congressional notification, but two senior defense officials said it includes up to 84 new F-15 fighter jets and three types of helicopters including the sleek Black Hawk and the missile-toting Apache.

"It's massive," said Andrew Exum, an analyst at the Center for a New American Security, calling the long-anticipated deal a "shot-in-the-arm" for the U.S. defense industry.

"What the United States is trying to do here is pretty clear. (It is) basically trying to work by, with, and through our partners in the region to balance against Iran," he said.

The defense officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because Congress has not yet seen the entire proposal, said the Pentagon expects that Saudi Arabia would initially select about $30 billion worth of aircraft. Approval of the larger proposal would give the kingdom room to buy more warplanes later.

Congress could ask for changes or try to attach strings. U.S. and Israeli officials said they expect some members of Congress will object strongly to the sale, but not enough to block it.

$30 billion in weapons for navy?

Separately, the Pentagon is considering an additional request to sell up to roughly $30 billion in advanced naval technology to Saudi Arabia. The defense officials said that plan was still in the preliminary planning stage and would not come before Congress for months. It could include new patrol ships to defend Saudi coastal waters and counter the growing naval capability of Iran's powerful Revolutionary Guards.

The sales acknowledges the shift in U.S. and Israeli security priorities in the Gulf region, defense analyst Anthony Cordesman wrote recently.

"Strong U.S. security ties to Saudi Arabia offer Israel a far better alternative than Saudi Arabia turning to European or other suppliers and questioning U.S. support if it faces a crisis with Iran," Cordesman wrote in a Center for Strategic and International Studies analysis.

The Obama administration has repeatedly assured Israel that it is committed to protecting the Jewish state's military advantage, said Jonathan Peled, spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington.

"We have had a close, consistent dialogue about it," and Israel accepts the U.S. rationale for the sale "even though we are not thrilled about it," Peled said.

U.S. and other diplomats said Defense Secretary Robert Gates laid out the reasoning behind the proposed Saudi sale during meetings with Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak in recent months.

$30 billion in military aid for Israel

Washington plans to counterbalance the sales to Arab nations with $30 billion in military assistance to Israel over 10 years. Israel is buying about 20 advanced American F-35 fighter jets worth $4 billion, to be funded by U.S. military aid to the country.

"At the core of our policy is making sure that there is stability in the region and part of that stability is making sure that Israel has what it needs to be able to provide for its own security," State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said Monday. "So the United States would do nothing that would upset the current balance in the region."

Exum said the Saudi package had to be viewed in the context of other deals in the region. He cited the expected sale of a missile defense system manufactured by Lockheed Martin Corp to the United Arab Emirates.

If approved, the Saudi deal would provide a huge boost to Boeing's defense unit, which had several key programs axed by Defense Secretary Robert Gates last year.

"This transaction shows that there may still be a lot of life in the F-15 fighter and other Boeing legacy aircraft programs," said defense analyst Loren Thompson of the Virginia-based Lexington Institute.

"The Saudi sale by itself will make a big difference to the company's revenues for at least the next five years," Thompson said.

Upon congressional notification, lawmakers get 30 days to object to the deal. But notifications are usually not sent unless lawmakers have already broadly agreed to the sale.

Saudi Arabia was the biggest buyer of U.S. weapons during a four-year span of 2005 through 2008, with $11.2 billion in deals, according to the U.S. Congressional Research Service.

The Wall Street Journal first reported on the package earlier Monday, saying it would be the largest U.S. arms deal in history and could support as many as 75,000 jobs.
And from the link at the end of that article:
Saudi Arms Deal Advances
White House to Notify Congress Soon of $60 Billion Package, Largest Ever for U.S.

By ADAM ENTOUS

The Obama administration is set to notify Congress of plans to offer advanced aircraft to Saudi Arabia worth up to $60 billion, the largest U.S. arms deal ever, and is in talks with the kingdom about potential naval and missile-defense upgrades that could be worth tens of billions of dollars more.

The administration plans to tout the $60 billion package as a major job creator—supporting at least 75,000 jobs, according to company estimates—and sees the sale of advanced fighter jets and military helicopters to key Middle Eastern ally Riyadh as part of a broader policy aimed at shoring up Arab allies against Iran.

The talks between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia have been widely known for months, but many new details are only now coming into focus. These include the number and type of aircraft involved, how much the Saudis intend to spend in an initial installment, and the ongoing negotiations to also upgrade the kingdom's navy and missile defenses.

The $60 billion in fighter jets and helicopters is the top-line amount requested by the Saudis, even though the kingdom is likely to commit initially to buying only about half that amount.

In a notification to Congress, expected to be submitted this week or next, the administration will authorize the Saudis to buy as many as 84 new F-15 fighters, upgrade 70 more, and purchase three types of helicopters—70 Apaches, 72 Black Hawks and 36 Little Birds, officials said.

The notification triggers a congressional review. Lawmakers could push for changes or seek to impose conditions, and potentially block the deal, though that is not expected.

On top of the $60 billion package of fighter jets and helicopters, U.S. officials are discussing a potential $30 billion package to upgrade Saudi Arabia's naval forces. An official described these as "discreet, bilateral conversations" in which no agreement has yet been reached. That deal could include littoral combat ships, surface vessels intended for operations close to shore, the official said.

Talks are also underway to expand Saudi Arabia's ballistic-missile defenses. The U.S. is encouraging the Saudis to buy systems known as THAAD—Terminal High Altitude Defense—and to upgrade its Patriot missiles to reduce the threat from Iranian rockets. U.S. officials said it was unclear how much this package would be worth.

The U.S. has sought to build up missile defense across the region, and the Saudi package could be similar to one in the United Arab Emirates, officials said. THAAD is built by Lockheed Martin Corp. and Raytheon Co. supplies the system's radar. THAAD is the first system designed to defend against short- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles both inside and outside the Earth's atmosphere. It complements the lower-aimed Patriot missile defense system, providing a layered defense.

Lockheed officials have stated that they see serious export potential for the system in the Middle East, where a major concern exists about Iran's ballistic missile development.

The prospect for job growth could help build support in Congress for the $60 billion package, officials said. "It's a big economic sale for the U.S. and the argument is that it is better to create jobs here than in Europe," said one person close to the talks.

Boeing Co., which makes the F-15s, the Apaches and the Little Birds, believes the Saudi package would directly or indirectly support 77,000 jobs across 44 states. It is unclear how many jobs, if any, would be supported by the Saudi purchase of Black Hawks, made by Sikorsky. Production levels are already high at Sikorsky, which is owned by United Technologies Co.

The Saudis in recent years have broadened their acquisitions to include more European- and Russian-made weaponry. That thinking was partially behind Riyadh's 2007 deal to purchase dozens of Eurofighter fighter planes from BAE Systems PLC, Saudi officials said.

Pro-Israel lawmakers have voiced concerns in the past about arms sales to Saudi Arabia that they say may undercut Israel's military edge and provide support to a government with a poor human rights record.

U.S. officials say the Israelis are increasingly comfortable with the Saudi sale because the planes won't have certain long-range weapons systems. Also, the Israelis are in line to buy a more advanced fighter, the F-35, and should begin to receive them around the same time the Saudis are expected to start getting the F-15s. "We appreciate the administration's efforts to maintain Israel's qualitative military edge, and we expect to continue to discuss our concerns with the administration about the issues," said Michael Oren, the Israeli ambassador to the U.S.

The senior U.S. defense official said it was unclear what pieces of equipment in the $60 billion package the Saudis may decide not to purchase, but he described the F-15s as a priority item. "It's conceivable that the Saudis could come back for the whole $60 billion," the official said, but added, "They're balancing their own defense priorities."

The $60 billion deal will be stretched out over five to 10 years, depending on production schedules, training, and infrastructure improvements, officials said.

Anthony Cordesman, a scholar at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said the deal is so large and so complex, that changes are inevitable.

"The actual contract often is renegotiated because the Saudis are always going to push, we're always going to push, the Congress is going to push, the manufacturer is going to push. This is not the kind of negotiation where you've really agreed on the final details until you actually have put the final contract out," he said.
Sell! Sell! Sell!

$60 and perhaps a total of $90 billion to be received from the oil barons for our guns, while Israel gets $30 billion in assistance. Don't mind the first part, not exactly thrilled about the last part, but at least it may keep the war factory lines running and people employed.
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

Post by Aaron »

Are they going to supply training so they stop doing stupid shit like neglecting to sight in the weapons?

Sell! Sell! Sell!

$60 and perhaps a total of $90 billion to be received from the oil barons for our guns, while Israel gets $30 billion in assistance. Don't mind the first part, not exactly thrilled about the last part, but at least it may keep the war factory lines running and people employed.
*meh* May as well sell to the Israeli's as well. Help maintain the whole balance of power in the region.
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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I don't mind them selling to Israel; hell, sell them everything they can afford. I just don't want it given away as aid. Calling it assistance makes it sound like the latter.

Edit: And I know that Israel has gotten a lot of freebies in the past.
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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We Republicans throw a fit when jobless benefits are extended, but it's fine when we're giving Israel just as much free money.
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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It would be nice if Israel paid for more of their stuff.
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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Pelranius wrote:It would be nice if Israel paid for more of their stuff.
Although Israel is a fairly rich country, it's still also a small one. They couldn't afford to pay much more for American weapons. So, if the US wants to perpetuate the Status Quo in the Middle East, the only solution is to give Israel weapons as military aid. It's as simple as that.
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That little comment about European and Russian weaponry caught my eye, and reveals what I suspect is one of the main reasons for this deal. The US perhaps fears a threat to its arms markets from the aforesaid. Another reason is that by being Saudi Arabia's primary supplier, they can protect Israel's technological advantages by simply not providing certain items, or adding built-in weaknesses. By contrast, they have little or no control over what Europe, Russia, China, or anyone else might sell.

On top of this, Israel is a troublesome ally at the best of times. It is small (as Marcus Aurelius points out), inconsiderate, sometimes disobedient, and in many respects a liability. It makes sense that the US government will want to bulk up other, more reliable and useful allies. They'll do this so long as what they're selling can't threaten Israel in any obvious way, an issue which is as much about protecting themselves from the pro-Israel lobby as protecting Israel from its neighbours.
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Temujin wrote:I don't mind them selling to Israel; hell, sell them everything they can afford. I just don't want it given away as aid. Calling it assistance makes it sound like the latter.

Edit: And I know that Israel has gotten a lot of freebies in the past.
Remember the US gives billions in aid to Egypt too which has its own huge pile of American made weapons it couldn’t afford on its own. Aid to Israel and Egypt is linked directly to the Camp David Accords. The US won’t stop aiding Egypt unless it turns Islamist because it controls a little absurdly vital thing called the Suez Canal. As long as Egypt gets aid Israel sure as shit isn’t being cut off.
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Aaron wrote:*meh* May as well sell to the Israeli's as well. Help maintain the whole balance of power in the region.
Ignoring that I think the US needs to drop Israel like a bad habit, we aren't selling it to them, we're giving it to them for free.
Sea Skimmer wrote:Remember the US gives billions in aid to Egypt too which has its own huge pile of American made weapons it couldn’t afford on its own. Aid to Israel and Egypt is linked directly to the Camp David Accords. The US won’t stop aiding Egypt unless it turns Islamist because it controls a little absurdly vital thing called the Suez Canal. As long as Egypt gets aid Israel sure as shit isn’t being cut off.
The difference is there's a tangible benefit in giving aid to Egypt, whereas Israel has only been a liability.
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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Sea Skimmer wrote:
Temujin wrote:I don't mind them selling to Israel; hell, sell them everything they can afford. I just don't want it given away as aid. Calling it assistance makes it sound like the latter.

Edit: And I know that Israel has gotten a lot of freebies in the past.
Remember the US gives billions in aid to Egypt too which has its own huge pile of American made weapons it couldn’t afford on its own. Aid to Israel and Egypt is linked directly to the Camp David Accords. The US won’t stop aiding Egypt unless it turns Islamist because it controls a little absurdly vital thing called the Suez Canal. As long as Egypt gets aid Israel sure as shit isn’t being cut off.
How long do we have to keep on giving aid to both countries?
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Juubi Karakuchi wrote:On top of this, Israel is a troublesome ally at the best of times. It is small (as Marcus Aurelius points out), inconsiderate, sometimes disobedient, and in many respects a liability. It makes sense that the US government will want to bulk up other, more reliable and useful allies.
In a strict 'take money and obey orders' sense; Egypt and Saudi Arabia are more useful than Israel as far as reliability is concerned.

But at the same time, Israel is actually far more reliable than many of the shitholes around the world we have to deal with, in that we don't have to worry that they're one military coup or dead political leader away from total anarchic instability until a new strong man steps in on the backs of eleventy thousand massacred people.

For example, take Egypt. What happens when Mubarak dies? I can't see his son Gamal ascending to power without opposition within the government.

Israel on the other hand in the last what, twenty years has seen a succession of prime ministers take power across the political spectrum and has not dissolved into total chaos.

Complaining about Israel being an unreliable ally is like complaining about other countries that are our nominal allies going and acting in their own interests from time to time, rather than being a total puppet of the US.
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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MKSheppard wrote: For example, take Egypt. What happens when Mubarak dies? I can't see his son Gamal ascending to power without opposition within the government.
I would be more worried about the KSA. That country is one big shitstorm waiting to happen, not to mention the fact that they still have the largest proven oil reserves in the world (even if if assume that they lie about them, which is about 95% certain). Of course most of the dissidents in the KSA are uneducated poor folks and therefore at least in principle easier to control, but Osama bin Laden for sure is not the only rich dissident there.
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Problem is, very rich people who think like Bin Laden are not necessarily 'dissidents' in Saudi Arabia. Some of those who are wise enough to refrain from directly challenging the monarchy while being perfectly sympathetic to Bin Laden's aims are part of the Saudi government.
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Kanastrous wrote:Problem is, very rich people who think like Bin Laden are not necessarily 'dissidents' in Saudi Arabia. Some of those who are wise enough to refrain from directly challenging the monarchy while being perfectly sympathetic to Bin Laden's aims are part of the Saudi government.
Yeah pretty much. Though the Saudis manage to keep a nice public face up -- bin ladin's big crime as far as the Monarchy was concerned was directly challenging them.
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MKSheppard wrote:Complaining about Israel being an unreliable ally is like complaining about other countries that are our nominal allies going and acting in their own interests from time to time, rather than being a total puppet of the US.
No one's questioning whether they're an unreliable ally, it's whether or not they can be considered an ally at all.
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I sometimes suspect that - if we were smart about it - we extracted beaucoup commitments re: intelligence etc from the Israelis, in exchange for Operation Nickel Grass...

...or at any rate, I hope so.

If the qualification for 'ally' is foreign governments that consistently do as we tell them to do I don't know that the US has any 'reliable allies' at all.
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Kanastrous wrote:I sometimes suspect that - if we were smart about it - we extracted beaucoup commitments re: intelligence etc from the Israelis, in exchange for Operation Nickel Grass....
Oh yeah you bet we did.

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*Sniff*
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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Eh, I think they are hyping the level of the tech transfer. The drop the names of the F-15, Blackhawk and Apache but neglect to mention that KSA already has all three of these in their inventory.

And the SLEEK blackhawk? WTF?
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Saudi Arabia is repugnant. Were I to have any power, I'd never sell them anything, much less weapons. Too bad about the world being cruel and all that.
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Saudi Arabia is an ally of the United States of America and has proven itself loyal to its commitment to freedom, democracy, truth and justice for all people. It is not only convenient for American foreign interests, but it is also America's moral obligation, to support its peace-loving and just Saudi Arabian friends and brothers by providing what it needs to defend itself. To ensure the safety and security of the Middle Eastern region. After all, America is the Middle East's only protection. From who? From themselves, of course. 8)

The United States of America and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are kindred spirits. They are so much alike in the truths that they stand for, in the ways of life that they defend, and their mutual respect for the value of human dignity. They share a special relationship, and no communist or liberal or mohammedian can speak ill of it - for what are they to the shining beacon of hope and freedom that the United States and Saudi Arabia are? This fact is undeniable. To deny it would be to deny freedom and democracy. To deny it would be siding with the axis of evil. It is self-evident, like the rights that we so hold dear. 8)
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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Stas Bush wrote:Saudi Arabia is repugnant. Were I to have any power, I'd never sell them anything, much less weapons. Too bad about the world being cruel and all that.
Unfortunately all that oil ensures that the ruling class can get all the fancy bling bling toys they want; and America being the worlds biggest oil addict customer means were going to do jack shit to really piss them off. It's not unlike some coke dealers living in the hood who servicing upscale clientele on the hob nob business end of town. If it wasn't for that oil, they'd still be running around the desert lopping each others heads off and playing with camel shit.

I would have rather seen us start getting off oil as much as possible starting in the 70s, it would both minimize and buy us more time to deal with some of the shit were facing. At least some of their money can go to help keep some Americans working.

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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

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Temujin wrote:When I come to power I'm hiring you as my speech writer. :lol:
I think he just stole that from Reagan's speech about Marcos' Phillipines back in the 1980s.
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

In spirit, the ghost of Reagan lives in all of our hearts. Together with Marcos, who dwells in the colon. :)
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Kanastrous
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Re: Saudis, U.S. near $60 billion arms deal

Post by Kanastrous »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Together with Marcos, who dwells in the colon. :)
I wonder is some of that horrible toxic goop they use to purge tapeworms would get him out of there...
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