Mobile Infantry (novel) versus 40K Space Marines

[hongi]

And hey, let's be fair here:
WE don't send our soldiers into melee because their opponents are equally good at it. We don't gain an advantage by doing so.
Space Marines, however, often DO gain an advantage by doing so - they have better stamina, reflexes, strenght, armor, weapons etc. than many of their opponents. All of those are less important in ranged combat. Add in their inferior numbers, and going into melee can actually make sense if you have the opportunity to do so.
They often have that opportunity due to the shape of their battlefield or their specialised equipment. They use it when it get's them an tactical advantage, and they don't when it doesn't.

What opponents would those be? I thought the opponents that SM regularly face are as strong, fast etc as they are.

[Serafina]

What opponents would those be? I thought the opponents that SM regularly face are as strong, fast etc as they are.

Imperial guard and their traitor elements. Space Marines DO fight against other human armies quite often - chaos armies tend to be mostly those, Chaos Marines and Deamons tend to be rare.
Tau, of course. Orks to a certain degree. Eldar and Dark Eldar (with the exception of their melee specialists). And a multitude of less prominent alien races.

The enemies that are equal to Space Marines in close combat are Chaos Space Marines, some deamons, some Tyranids, Necrons to a degree, some of the stronger Orks and the melee elite of Eldar and Dark Eldar.

So there is plenty on either side, but as i said - Space Marines do not go into melee as their first option, and if they do they tend to deploy specialists.

[Black Admiral]

What opponents would those be? I thought the opponents that SM regularly face are as strong, fast etc as they are.

It's a bit more complicated than that. While the opponents SMs might face sometimes exceed them in individual areas (Orks are stronger, eldar/dark eldar more agile, etc.), outside of the Traitor Legions it's not common for them to face enemies their equal or better across the board.

[Serafina]

Actually, i would like to tackle the issue of nukes.

Because so far, apparently most people have assume that "nuke=instadeath". Now that's obviously true for a direct hit, but what about other situations? Do we know how precise their nuclear missiles are?
A Space Marine has very heavy armor which has excellent heat resistance and is NBC-protected. He certainly won't be blinded by the explosion or have to care about the fallout.

Now, for a very rough calculation, let's assume that a space marines armor is the equivalent to a modern-day hardened military target. How close would the nuke have to detonate in order to kill or incapitate the Space Marine, taking only the blast and heat into account?

[Batman]

The main site's nuclear effects calculator gives a fireball radius of 40 m and a blast radius (near total fatalities, 20psi overpressure) of 352m for a 2KT yield nuke.
I'll leave figuring out what if anything that will do to a Space Marine to people who actually know their capabilities.

[Simon_Jester]

Near misses from large-caliber conventional artillery shells (such as are fired by a Basilisk self-propelled gun) can blow Space Marines into jelly on the tabletop. A ten terajoule nuke would have a much larger radius of effect, and would probably be able to destroy a large number of Marines if they concentrated, or one of their armored vehicles (which few 20th-21st century antitank weapons could do, or not easily at any rate).

[Imperial528]

Wouldn't the rules of the tabletop game fall under game mechanics?

[Simon_Jester]

Yes. On the other hand, artillery from vehicle-mounted heavy weapons is normally presented as a credible threat to Marines, and there are logical reasons for assuming that blast from artillery (or nuclear strikes) might harm them even if the fireball/shrapnel/etc. fail to penetrate the armor: it's not clear how much concussion the wearer can survive, even given his superhuman durability.

At best, the tabletop rules are a guide to which weapon systems are probably dangerous to which others: that rocket launchers and lascannon are clearly powerful antitank weapons, that vehicles like the Marine Land Raider are more heavily protected than the Imperial Guard Chimera, and so on. But yes, you're right, it's a limited guide.

I wouldn't expect tactical nukes to have a large radius of effect against Space Marines, but I think it's large enough to be a very deadly form of artillery bombardment if you can spot them and put a nuclear strike within, say, a hundred meters of their position. Even for a "peewee nuke." And the MI carry enough nuclear weapons, if they are fully equipped, to put a big dent in the Marines at standoff ranges.

For that matter, those nukes may be a major reason why MI are deemed so much more effective than conventional tanks. If reasonably portable nuclear guided missiles are a common item on the battlefield (as Heinlein might reasonable expect them to be), the high profile of a tank makes it much more vulnerable to being spotted and taken out at long range than an MI which has gone to ground. And the tank's advantages in being able to carry thicker armor for the same level of propulsion technology become largely irrelevant in the face of possible nuclear-tipped ATGM threats.

[Cykeisme]

What opponents would those be? I thought the opponents that SM regularly face are as strong, fast etc as they are.

Yes, while there are often opponents as strong, as fast, or as tough as they are (occassionally all of those), these enemies tend to approach and force engagement at close quarters, which neccessitates a response in kind.

And as already discussed, Space Marines engage in close combat when it is tactically advantageous, allowing them to bring to bear the superiority conferred by their natural attributes and equipment.
Also discussed was the sheer weight of numbers of certain types of opposition. The truly vast numbers lent to mobs of cultists by the population density of Imperial worlds is one, Tyranid and Ork alien forces are another. They are numerous enough to strain on-hand ammunition supplies and even sustained rates of fire may be inadequate to prevent close combat - but fortunately Astartes are capable of exacting lethality, when it comes to that.

Besides, if we take into account both organic and supplementary vehicular support, less than twenty percent of a standard Space Marine expeditionary force (a typical Astartes "Battle Company") actually specializes in close combat. Even then, that same twenty percent is equipped with jump packs to force the issue - and anyway, they carry bolt pistols as well as melee weapons.


Regarding the OP, it seems that Mobile Infantry equip their infantry forces with nuclear weapons due to the orbital bombardment not being reliably available. We can assume that 40k ground forces rarely pack nukes because anything that needs that sort of yield should be dealt with using bombardment from spacecraft with the required firepower (which are common).
Meanwhile, as already stated, the effectiveness of Basilisk Earthshaker cannons in the tabletop game are game mechanics, so extrapolating the effectiveness of low-yield nuclear weapons from those same conclusions drawn from game mechanics may not be too accurate either. Certainly, attacks that threaten tanks (direct hits from anti-tank weapons) are a very credible threat to Space Marines, but area effects from artillery are not a threat to tanks. So while there is a possibility they threaten Marines, there is no logical indication toward that being the case.

Does anyone have any quotes regarding Astartes (traitor or otherwise) being targeted with artillery or orbital fire? That might provide some useful information.
I recall in Storm of Iron a high-yield anti-capital ship torpedo was used to hit the surface, but I don't have the book on hand. Perhaps there are some descriptions of the effects on the Iron Warriors at various distances from ground zero?

Also, about the main site's nuclear effects calculator.. I assume the near-total fatality radius refers to human beings without protective equipment and fortification, or even protection from terrain features?

[keen320]

While I hate to say this, because I'm backing the MI since I know more about them, I don't think most MI pack nukes all the time. It sounded in the book more like a few guys per unit. Probably not more than one in 5 or 10.

On the other hand, I feel compelled to point out the Y-rack probably isn't what they consider an anti-tank weapon. I sounds more like a specific weapon for their smashing of an area, like they do at the beginning of starship troopers. Presumably the troopers can carry a purpose built anti-tank type of weapon, since they would need something like that to take out anyone like them, although we never see one. Also, their grenades seem about as powerful as most conventional artillery (certainly as powerful as most modern artillery).

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, but I'd bet on one guy with a few nuclear missiles against a squad of Space Marines at standoff range. In closer quarters, not so much. So the fact that the MI only carry nukes at the squad level, with lighter antitank weapons for the ordinary rifleman-equivalents, really is good enough. But they still want to stay at long range where their nukes give them an edge, rather than at short range where at best they have parity in weapons, probable inferiority in areas like armor protection, and definitely inferiority in combat experience, reflexes, and physical damage-resistance.

The MI stand a decent chance of winning this one, I think, as long as they can shape the battlefield to their liking... but if the Marines know what to expect that could be difficult. They're very good at adjusting their tactics to suit the enemy. If they know their enemy dominates in long range fire support, they will try very hard to avoid engagement under conditions where use of that fire support is practical.

[Serafina]

The MI stand a decent chance of winning this one, I think, as long as they can shape the battlefield to their liking... but if the Marines know what to expect that could be difficult. They're very good at adjusting their tactics to suit the enemy. If they know their enemy dominates in long range fire support, they will try very hard to avoid engagement under conditions where use of that fire support is practical.

Actually, this is already standard for Space Marines - they almost never can win an artillery-range battle, so they generally avoid them. After all, artillery can generally actually harm them and they have little on their own.

Hence, they don't even have to know the specific threat from the MI, they will try to close (or start at) to small-arms range anyway.

[adam_grif]

The MI stand a decent chance of winning this one, I think, as long as they can shape the battlefield to their liking... but if the Marines know what to expect that could be difficult. They're very good at adjusting their tactics to suit the enemy. If they know their enemy dominates in long range fire support, they will try very hard to avoid engagement under conditions where use of that fire support is practical.

Actually, this is already standard for Space Marines - they almost never can win an artillery-range battle, so they generally avoid them. After all, artillery can generally actually harm them and they have little on their own.

Hence, they don't even have to know the specific threat from the MI, they will try to close (or start at) to small-arms range anyway.

So the SM are going to be useless unless they can drop pod right next to the MI? The M in MI stands for "Mobile", and I'm pretty sure they can just keep making tactical retreats whenever the SM's get within a kilometer of them. Unless we have some evidence to the contrary we can't really assume that MI jetpacks are super slow compared to Assault Marines, and even if AM's can catch up to them, the lighter AT weapons may well be able to deal with them (although we can't know for sure, there's zilch quantifiable in ST).

[Black Admiral]

That depends entirely on how fast the MI can move (the which I don't recall being directly mentioned); regular Astartes can run at upwards of 40kph fully armoured, and Assault Squads are faster.

[Serafina]

That depends entirely on how fast the MI can move (the which I don't recall being directly mentioned); regular Astartes can run at upwards of 40kph fully armoured, and Assault Squads are faster.

They also have all kinds of vehicles which are far faster than that (70 kph for Rhinos, several hundred kph for Land Speeders.)

Again, it depends on an unknow number - how fast and mobile MI actually is. However, keep in mind that Space Marines already have tactics to deal with MI-like troops - namely with Tau Battlesuits. Other hit&run jumptroops are also know to them.

[Shadow6]

That depends entirely on how fast the MI can move (the which I don't recall being directly mentioned); regular Astartes can run at upwards of 40kph fully armoured, and Assault Squads are faster.

During the attack on Planet P, Rico has his platoon do a 'fast sweep' in a line, which he describes as difficult due to the issue of keeping everyone exactly in their positions so as to not miss any ground.

While I listened, I watched it in my own display - glowworms crawling past my face in precise lines, 'crawling' because even forty miles an hour (~64 kph) is a slow crawl when you compress a formation twenty miles across into a display a man can see.

You could take from that that individual speeds over terrain might be higher, not to mention that scout and command armour (the command armour would often carry the nukes, as below) are descrbied as much faster than the standard armour.

Secondly, as far as armament goes, during the operation on Planet P "only officers and platoon sergeants were armed with [atomic] rockets" and they did not expect to use them. 500 M.I. is 9 and a bit platoons (10 if you don't count officers, but we'll go for a lower bound). This makes for 15 or so men out of 500 (sometimes officers fill two or more slots) (pgs 176-178) armed with atomic rockets, on a mission they did not plan to use them. Rico, an assistant section leader, had at least four atomic rockets during the attack on the Skinnies at the start of the book (pg 17 "I had three more of the little A-rockets"). There are two sections to a platoon, and if we are generous and give everyone from assistant section leader up atomic rockets, with 4 rockets each, that comes out to 200 or so atomic rockets among 500 men.

[Simon_Jester]

Actually, this is already standard for Space Marines - they almost never can win an artillery-range battle, so they generally avoid them. After all, artillery can generally actually harm them and they have little on their own.

Hence, they don't even have to know the specific threat from the MI, they will try to close (or start at) to small-arms range anyway.

True. On the other hand, if all they have to go on is orbital recon, they won't realize they're fighting an opponent that is strong in artillery. They'll look at MI and see something more like themselves, or perhaps like a Tau battlesuit force; it won't be until the first salvo of peewee nukes goes off that they realize they're fighting someone who's actually got them outgunned in at least one respect.

Secondly, as far as armament goes, during the operation on Planet P "only officers and platoon sergeants were armed with [atomic] rockets" and they did not expect to use them. 500 M.I. is 9 and a bit platoons (10 if you don't count officers, but we'll go for a lower bound). This makes for 15 or so men out of 500 (sometimes officers fill two or more slots) (pgs 176-178) armed with atomic rockets, on a mission they did not plan to use them. Rico, an assistant section leader, had at least four atomic rockets during the attack on the Skinnies at the start of the book (pg 17 "I had three more of the little A-rockets"). There are two sections to a platoon, and if we are generous and give everyone from assistant section leader up atomic rockets, with 4 rockets each, that comes out to 200 or so atomic rockets among 500 men.

If they knew they were going to fight something like the Space Marines, I suspect that this would not be an unreasonable loadout of nukes for them. Like the Marines, the MI are pretty good about customizing their loadout to fit the mission.

[adam_grif]

How good is marine armor supposed to hold up to Anti Tank weapons? Obviously MI firepower is unknown, but according to the novel they have "made tanks obsolete", so they can at the very least be expected to be deploying weapons capable of busting 1950's era tanks with ease.

[Simon_Jester]

The fact that in this setting lasguns (which are quite nasty compared to 20th century small arms) have replaced basic infantry rifles while bolters (which are even nastier) have replaced heavy machine guns, and that armored vehicles remain functionally immune to these threats, suggests that tank armor is considerably stronger than it is today, but I'm not sure by how great a margin.

[Batman]

Something to consider I think is that just because MI 'made tanks obsolete' doesn't mean they can actually take them out in a straight-on confrontation (other than using their nukezookas). MI are efficient enough that their definite advantages in mobility and firepower over old-style infantry means they, at least in the combat situations they typically wind up in, can substitute for tanks. For all we know the Starship Troopers terrans never fight the kind of conventional battle where you need tanks to begin with anymore. In most of the battles fought in the book (at least if I remember correctly) they were either in urban warfare or tunnel fighting, where tanks would be of decidedly limited utility.They are not necessarily more powerful than tanks, they're just better adapted to a battlefield where tanks wouldn't be all that useful to begin with.

[Simon_Jester]

It's strongly implied that they can beat tanks, though, either in a long-range duel using nuclear missiles, or at shorter ranges using antitank missiles (already a well known concept in the '50s, and the '50s and '60s were an age of optimism about how effective future missiles would be).

[Kingmaker]

No, it is explicitly mentioned early on in the book--Zim's speech to the fresh recruits, IIRC-- that a single cap trooper could take out several tanks with ease, although he probably didn't mean literally trading shots with the tank. It is more likely the case that improved portability and effectiveness of single-man anti-tank weapons combined with the vastly improved mobility of armored infantry meant that armored formations could no longer expect to defeat infantry even in ideal circumstances (open terrain, etc...).

[Batman]

It's been a while since I read that book. Of course, that once more raises the question of if they can put the technology to easily kill a tank into an MI suit, why can't they put it in a tank several times over given the tank has a lot more room for them to put it in?
The only advantage (given they have an identical technology base) the suit has over the tank is small size and agility. Firepower wise, everything the suit can do the tank can do massively better.

[Simon_Jester]

The problem becomes that if AT weapons are potent enough to defeat any practical armor*, then putting ten times as many of them on a single armored platform just means you lose ten missiles per missile the enemy fires instead of one. Increasing the number of platforms is to your advantage, because you don't want too many eggs in one large basket when all baskets are easily destroyed by high-end firepower.

Arguably, real life is trending this way (only power armor hasn't shown up and won't soon); look at how many lightly armored APC/gun carrier designs have come out lately. Antitank missiles have gotten so good that modern armor can't compete effectively, and unless new breakthroughs are made that may well remain the status quo. In which case numbers count for more than protection.

MI give you mobile firepower immune to antipersonnel weapons, in relatively large numbers, with a low enough target profile to stand a good chance of getting the first shot in against a tank. That's critical when the first shot has a high probability of killing the target.

*(or at least any practical armor that can be made conveniently spacemobile; something like a Bolo might exist but it can't drop with the MI)

[adam_grif]

In the foreword, or the first page of the book, or something like that, there is a quote that has Rico talking about what, exactly, the power suit was. I can't recall the exact quote and I can't find my copy of the book (it's somewhere in the house...), nor can I find it online. Quite frustrating actually.

Anyway, he goes through and says things like "it's not a spaceship, but it can survive in vacuum", and "it's not a tank, but it can easily hold off a battalion of tanks" or SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Can anyone help me out here?