UC Gundam meets the Imperium of Man (RAR!)

[lord Martiya]

Before you dismiss me, please note that I won't delude myself thinking the Federation and Zeon combined have a ghost of a chance against an half-serious Imperial assault. Or even one that's not all that serious, but I love to think that Revil and Degwin Zabi will realize how badly outclassed they are and wondering about the parallels between Newtypes and Psykers.

As the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath warp finally fades, Imperium's forces moves to reclaim Clax, but finds that the people has lost memory of the Imperium and is divided among three different factions: an Earth Federation ruling the planet Earth/Clax and most of the space station-based colonies, a fully demilitarized but economically VERY strong set of autonomous colonies near the fifth planet (that they call Jupiter) who could plunge the rest of the system into stone age by merely stopping exports, and a group of indipendent colonies called Principality of Zeon, with the Federation and Zeon on the verge of open war. I have two scenarios:
1)The Federation and the Jupiter Colonies rejoin the Imperium pacifically (the Federation as the governement is scared into submission and the high ranking military see in the Imperium an improvement over their political leaders, Jupiter is merely scared into submission), but Zeon declares war on the Imperium and is conquered after the Imperial Navy realizes that they holds superiority in spite of that unbelievable jamming.
2)The Federation, the Jupiter Colonies and Zeon rejoin pacifically, with Zeon signing the surrender after weeping Gihren, the eldest son of the prince Degwin killed by a 'fanatic holding the Zabi family responsible for killing Zeon Zum Daikun' (Garma Zabi's best friend Char Aznable has been reported jokingly wondering where Kycylia found the fanatic).
What would be the consequences of the Imperium absorbing this Civilised World with near-Forge World levels of production and indigen Titan technology?

[IvanTih]

I really doubt that Gundam has to offer something useful to the Imperium.

[Purple]

And even if it did, it would be pointless.
The IOM is massive, and not large massive, or huge massive, or really so freaking huge massive that looking at a 1 to trillion scale map would make your eyes bleed but even larger.

Over such a huge expanse the sheer technological inertia is insurmountable.


Let us for example say that the IOM gets some magical way of making lasguns that shoot like nuclear weapons. Now what you have to do is send the designs to Mars for examination. Than some decades or even centuries later once it actually gets its turn on the long list of stuff to do, and if it actually passes the tests of the AdMech you can try and distribute the knowledge to the other forge worlds.

Now there is the hard part. Imagine retooling machines, retraining the work force and essentially reconfiguring the weapons industry on a galactic scale. All the while the factories can't stop working for even a nanosecond or you won't have enough supplies for the needs of the absolutely massive empire.

And once that is done, you have to distribute the products all around the empire, train the crews that are to use them and a bunch of other things I can't think of right now.


Furthermore, while I am not a gundam fan per se but I figure that their technology would probably not be superior to what the IOM already uses. Or at least not superior enough to warrant the above mentioned hurdles.

[Ford Prefect]

parallels between Newtypes and Psykers

There ... really aren't.

Anyway, the Imperium isn't likely to gain anything out of this technologically. If it was the Zeta era, then you could make a really big deal out Guard forces raised there on the tithe system. The high mobility with GIANT ROBOTS aspect of OYW and later warfare means they'd probably be ridiculously competitive on the ground even before taking into account anything that trickles down from the Imperium. That said, if the Adeptus Mechanicus get their teeth it you can pretty much gaurantee that the Earth Sphere's previously extremely fast technological development is going to really slow down. They can't be competitive in space, obviously.

[Zinegata]

It's more likely the Imperium will simply mistake the EF/Zeon as Tau sympathizers and declare Exterminatus.

[Darksider]

Crush them yes, but an Exterminatus is not something carried out on a whim. You need the authority of the Inquisition to undertake one, and the Inquisitor has to do a very good job explaining why afterward. When Chaos Taint isn't present, or some kind of Xeno infection that spoils the planet's ecosystem, the more likely Imperial response would be to slaughter any who refuse to submit to Imperial Authority and worship the emperor. conducting an Exterminatus deprives the Imperium of valuable resources a planet could provide. It's a last resort only.

it is likely that the Imperium will annihilate all organized military resistance and force a surrender, then begin the long, slow process of indoctrinating the planet's populace (whatever's left anyways) into becoming useful and productive imperial citizens.

Also, Ford, I'm curious as to why you think Tithe forces from a conquered Earth would be of particular use to the Imperium. Especially since any MS regiments would require resupply with equipment that could only be produced on one planet, at least until forge worlds get MS patterns from the Admech in a couple of centuries.

[Ford Prefect]

It's more likely the Imperium will simply mistake the EF/Zeon as Tau sympathizers and declare Exterminatus.

That's a geographic impossibility.

[Zinegata]

Pfft. As if Inquisitors could be bothered to let geogaphy stand in the way of rooting out heresy!

[Ford Prefect]

Also, Ford, I'm curious as to why you think Tithe forces from a conquered Earth would be of particular use to the Imperium. Especially since any MS regiments would require resupply with equipment that could only be produced on one planet, at least until forge worlds get MS patterns from the Admech in a couple of centuries.

Uh, because their effectiveness on the battlefield would be really high? They wouldn't be the only high-tech force with resupply issues in the Imperium, and to be honest if the Vostroyans can get hand-made equipment from home, I don't see why it would be such an issue to get replacement parts around. Worse comes to worse you can just have strap a Warp drive to a Jupitris, or even something like A Baoa Qu, and they could build anything they need on site. This requires the Imperium not be total morons about it, though, which is probably asking too much.

[Archaic`]

How do the various types of Mobile Suit stack up in comparison to the Warden/Paladin/Lancer/Errant/Baron class Knight's already in use by the Adeptus Mechanicus for planet based engagements, or for that matter to Warhound Class Scout Titans? Would they be at all useful for Space combat in 40k?

[SAMAS]

I have no idea about the Knights in more than a general sense, but they would need to have their thrust systems upgraded to be a factor in space combat. Once that happens though, all bets are off.

[Zinegata]

Titans are of an entirely different size and class altogether.

The problem with Mobile Suits in space combat is that Warhammer 40K ships are incredibly tougher and larger compared to UC ships.

[Arankor]

The average Mobile suit would be larger than a scout titan (with the warhound being at most 15 meters tall, and most mobile suits at around 17-18 meters).
Size isn't all that much of a factor though (unless we bring in the bigger titan classes).
I think a mobile suit would be faster than a warhound, the Zaku II could reach ground speeds of 88 kph (though there are faster MS, like the Dom which had a max speed of 240 kph), as compared to the warhounds 58 on road speed.
A lot of MS are also capable of jumping using their thrusters.

The weapons department are a whole different area. A common weapon for Zeonic MS during the one year war was a 120mm machinegun. That's a fully automatic tank gun.
Other examples are 240, 360 and 880mm bazookas (the later was used exclusively by the Dom Tropen).
There's also beamweapons, though I don't know too much about those.

The question is, how do these weapons stack up to a warhound armament (disregarding heavier titans because there is almost nothing on the ground that can stack up to those)?
A warhound plasma weapon would very likely oneshot most MS, but I'm not as sure on the vulcan mega-bolter (I doubt it would be all that better than a 120 mm machingun, seeing as it is primarily an anti personnel/light armour weapon).

Void sheilds could probably make up for the lesser maneuverability and speed of the warhound. (Though seeing as it's a scout titan, I doubt the shields would hold for long against multiple MS)

In space, I don't see MS being effective against anything 40k. The ranges of 40k ship massively outstrip those of Zeonic and Federation ships. Then there are void shields and the fact that 40k armour is usually meters upon meters thick.
They could probably be used to attack space stations though. I don't think anyone foresaw the possibility of a giant robot landing on a space station.

Knights are probably screwed.


Also, a question: What about Minovsky particles? You know, those magic little particles that retards sensors and targeting equipments, and allows stuff that should not fly, to fly and all that good stuff?

[Archaic`]

A warhound plasma weapon would very likely oneshot most MS, but I'm not as sure on the vulcan mega-bolter (I doubt it would be all that better than a 120 mm machingun, seeing as it is primarily an anti personnel/light armour weapon).

The vulcan mega-bolter on a warhound is effectively a set of twin-linked heavy bolters, firing 1.00 cal shells that themselves are closer to RPG rounds than to bullets.

[Chaotic Neutral]

Let us for example say that the IOM gets some magical way of making lasguns that shoot like nuclear weapons.

Why downgrade?

Now there is the hard part. Imagine retooling machines, retraining the work force and essentially reconfiguring the weapons industry on a galactic scale. All the while the factories can't stop working for even a nanosecond or you won't have enough supplies for the needs of the absolutely massive empire.

And once that is done, you have to distribute the products all around the empire, train the crews that are to use them and a bunch of other things I can't think of right now.

That's no more difficult than the same thing done in RL. Having factories stop to reconfigure wouldn't do damage, not only is the Imperium 100000X bigger, it's also has 100000X more factories.

Furthermore, while I am not a gundam fan per se but I figure that their technology would probably not be superior to what the IOM already uses. Or at least not superior enough to warrant the above mentioned hurdles.

They don't even have FTL if I recall.

[Darksider]

The vulcan mega-bolter on a warhound is effectively a set of twin-linked heavy bolters, firing 1.00 cal shells that themselves are closer to RPG rounds than to bullets.

Aren't Mega-Bolters primarily used against infantry and light vehicles through?

In Titanicus I can't recall a Mega-bolter doing anything more than pissing off a Titan of any class.

[SAMAS]

Infantry and light vehicles in the VMB's case.

[Archaic`]

Which I'd imagine to be more a function of the ridiculously thick armour and shields, rather than to it not being usable against something of that size. An MS isn't as durable as a Titan (as evidenced by those Machine Guns they use against each other), so it'd be fair game.

[lord Martiya]

I'm understanding that, in my ignorance of WH40k, I proposed a scenario as ridicolous as 'Voldemort and the Death Eaters replace Petain and the French Army at Verdun'... At least I never expected Zeon to win, only wondered how the follow-up.

[Connor MacLeod]

Also, Ford, I'm curious as to why you think Tithe forces from a conquered Earth would be of particular use to the Imperium. Especially since any MS regiments would require resupply with equipment that could only be produced on one planet, at least until forge worlds get MS patterns from the Admech in a couple of centuries.

That depends entirely on where they are deployed and how, politics, and various other factors. Troops raised to fight within a given sector or subsector might not have the same logistical problems that the same kind of regiment from the same world raised and sent to fight on the other side of the segmentum would face. Garrison troops vs Crusade forces are another difference (Garrison troops will be sitting on a planet and have a fairly stable supply line, even if its not quite the same stuff they used they can requisition new stuff. Someone on the offensive or moved around a bit form conflict to conflict will have more inconsistent luck.

Prestige and politics play a big factor. Big name regiments like the Vostroyans, CAdians, Krieg, and Valhallans seem to find it easier to get gear and recruits/replacements than someone from lower profile worlds (such as some bumfuck agri world on the ass end of nowehere, like the novel Fifteen hours.)

Uh, because their effectiveness on the battlefield would be really high? They wouldn't be the only high-tech force with resupply issues in the Imperium, and to be honest if the Vostroyans can get hand-made equipment from home, I don't see why it would be such an issue to get replacement parts around

Probably because the Vostroyans, like the Krieg, Valhallans, etc. ARe high profile regiments throughout the Imperium. I also recall the Vostroyans in particular having good connections with the AdMehc which will help things like recruitment and resupply. Similarily, regiments like the Krieg are more directly under Munitorum control (for all intents and purposes they seem like a clone factory - at least thats what IA makes it out to be) and probably have better connections than a more "average" regiment.

Worse comes to worse you can just have strap a Warp drive to a Jupitris, or even something like A Baoa Qu, and they could build anything they need on site.

The AdMech and some Marine Chapters (like the Black Templars) have their own factory ships, fuel making ships (Goliaths) and warp capable fortresses and suchnot. Hell your average Imperial Navy ship almost always requires some sort of on-site fabrication capability simply to stay afloat in most cases (especially in long term independent operations - there's been mention of them (re)building aircraft and starfighters onboard ship.) Of course, having the capability to build shit also requires you to have the neccessary shit on hand, which is another story entirely.

This requires the Imperium not be total morons about it, though, which is probably asking too much.

Depends on how you choose to define morons. Politics plays a huge role in everything in the Imperium and practicality/efficiency often take a backseat to the political angle. Especially with the AdMech involved - dogmatically speaking they have a real "not made here" mentality (look at how they react to the AStartes when they come pu with new vehicle designs.) Of course the AdMech have their own variations (inconsistentl yfavoring or disfavoring research into xenos tech for example) as well.

[Ford Prefect]

Of course, having the capability to build shit also requires you to have the neccessary shit on hand, which is another story entirely.

The Jupitris can take an appropriate asteroid, refine the necessary materials from its constituent elements and then use the refined materials to build a full mobile suit in 24 hours, which means that they're ability to produce spare parts is pretty impressive. They only need titanium, various oxides for ceramics, helium 3 for fuel etc. You might encounter star systems where these things are infinitesimally scarce, but I doubt that you would commonly encounter systems where there's only five tons of titanium total.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Jupitris can take an appropriate asteroid, refine the necessary materials from its constituent elements and then use the refined materials to build a full mobile suit in 24 hours, which means that they're ability to produce spare parts is pretty impressive. They only need titanium, various oxides for ceramics, helium 3 for fuel etc. You might encounter star systems where these things are infinitesimally scarce, but I doubt that you would commonly encounter systems where there's only five tons of titanium total.

Starfighters and bombers in 40k can be bigger than a titan (marauder starfighter variants are some 260 feet long and nigh on 200 tons) and you can build them onboard a ship. At least some 40K starships also have the facility to build at least some replacement parts on-site, including the mining/refining bits. They can apparently even produce the magical shit like adamantium and ceramite and plasteel and all that.