Chaos Space Marine question

[Black Admiral]

Why don't the Chaos Gods simply wave armour into existence?

Because it wouldn't continue to exist outside of the Warp, that's why - if they wanted to, the daemons resident within the Eye could wave battleships into existence, but they're not anything more than fairy gold and would vanish if taken outside the Eye.

[Eviscerator]

As was said earlier, when in that Ultramarines novel one group of CSM's were able to get their hands on a supply of Geensead and take it back to the EOT, it was enough to get Chaos Marine legions going at each other full tilt because it was THAT big of a game changer.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Storm_Of_Iron_(Novel)
Nitpicking a little bit here - The Gr8 GeneSeed theft happened in Storm Of Iron - and SOI cannot be in anyway considered an Ultramarines novel. At best, an IG novel with elements of Iron Warrior and Imperial Fist.

The battle which you are thinking of as depicted in Dead Sky Black Sun is in no way TWO complete CSM Legions battling against each other, its more like two Iron Warrior Grand Companies going head to head on their homeworld.

The actual size of any of the original Traitor Legions by now are much, much larger than the originals 10k years ago.

[Purple]

Why don't the Chaos Gods simply wave armour into existence?

Because it wouldn't continue to exist outside of the Warp, that's why - if they wanted to, the daemons resident within the Eye could wave battleships into existence, but they're not anything more than fairy gold and would vanish if taken outside the Eye.

I would disagree with that.
Demons can and do exist outside of the EOT. All they need is a host. Defilers for example are demons possessing vehicles.

Also, there is nothing stopping a demon or even chaos god from manifesting to scoop up a huge pile of earth, magically separate the materials and magically assemble a warship in the EOT. As long as the construction is stable it will work outside of the EOT.


It's just that the chaos gods and demons mostly have more fun and important things to do.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I would disagree with that.
Demons can and do exist outside of the EOT. All they need is a host. Defilers for example are demons possessing vehicles.

Dude, and those suffer (very explicitly!) from daemonic instability -- the pesky tendency for reality to violently reject magical Warp tomfoolery. Daemons are never able to physically manifest themselves for long. The whole point of the host you yourself mention is that it is real, a flesh-and-blood product of reality that the daemon is merely hijacking, and usually quite temporarily and to the host's detriment to boot!

[Shroom Man 777]

PURPLE (pupple):

Um. So for Chaos gods to wave demon armor into existence, that demon would need a host in the form of... actual armor that it has to posses, am i rite? Defilers have daemons possessing vehicles to exist outside the warp. So a daemon armor would have to have an armor to possess. Unless the daemon possesses the Chaos Marine's pubic hair and turn it into his armor. THE ARMOR OF CONTEMPT.

There might also be limits to Chaos gods and daemons' possession powers. For all we know if they possess some mud and turn it into a daemon ship, the second it leaves the EOT it might end up turning back into a pile of mud. "As long as the construction is stable it will work outside of the EOT" = this is why they need pre-made vehicles/people to possess, because that is stable construction that will work outside of the EOT (unlike daemon-possessed mud/pubic hair). Rite?

A daemon-possessed puddle of mud would be awesome though. Like quicksand... BUT EVIL! Yes. Chaos cultists use chaos rituals to CURSE THE MUD. When Marines step on that cursed mud, the daemon possesses them. BROTHER JOHN! YOU ARE THE DAEMONS!

[Tiwaz]

I would disagree with that.
Demons can and do exist outside of the EOT. All they need is a host. Defilers for example are demons possessing vehicles.

It is 2nd oath of Forge of Souls demands from demons which are granted privilege to become Soul Grinders (possess a huge warmachine designed to kill, maim and destroy, think Titan-lite or Dreadnough on steroids) will return all hardware they rip up in materium to the Forge to make more Grinders.

[Purple]

You people completely missed the point.
Let me quote my self for you:

Also, there is nothing stopping a demon or even chaos god from manifesting to scoop up a huge pile of earth, magically separate the materials and magically assemble a warship in the EOT. As long as the construction is stable it will work outside of the EOT.

Or to explain it in more detail.
I was talking about something in the line of the Warp gods sending a demon. The demon poseses mud and turns it into an excavator, the excavator works at 10^23 the speed of a regular one, but still does the actual work of excavating. Repeat that for rafinement, factory production etc.

In other words, use the demons to poses regular technology to make it work much faster and better than it regularly would. But have it produce results that are equivalent to the machines regular production. Or just plain use warp magic to produce the same effects.

And as long as the product is designed so that it works in the real world, it will work in the real world.
If you cast a bolter shell or armor plate using warp magic instead of a blast furnace it won't magical transform it self back into raw iron ore once it is out of the EOT.


So it's NOT turn mud into ship. It's pick up mud, extract metal, melt with and cast it, screw bolts in, clean laser lenses etc. Just use warp magic to do it on a scale imposible to acheave with normal technology. The closest equivalent of what I am talking about is using warp magic in the EOT to make your regular production lines work like ork tech.


Naturally this would not extend to demonic constructs that only work because demonic magic makes them hold together. But that is not what I was talking about.

[Shroom Man 777]

You're expecting weirdo chaos daemon monster gods to work like technological machineries and do things in a sane and scientific fashion?

[Imperial Overlord]

Powerful, insane monomaniacal warp predators make poor factory slaves. Nor is "pushing earth around" a sufficient skill for the creation of high technology and it's high technology we're talking about. How do think Bloodletters of Khorne will like being bound into earth movers and then being ordered to move earth instead of killing people? Daemons are hard to control even under good conditions.

[Shroom Man 777]

Turns out weirdo pseudo-supernatural magical creatures brought forth by the subconscious emotions and Ids of sentient beings' soul energies won't behave in a rational scientific manner and thus can't construct proper things like professionals with engineering degrees and licenses. Who knew?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Turns out weirdo pseudo-supernatural magical creatures brought forth by the subconscious emotions and Ids of sentient beings' soul energies won't behave in a rational scientific manner and thus can't construct proper things like professionals with engineering degrees and licenses. Who knew?

In the novel Eye of Terror, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch actually tries his hand at building a Chaos fleet. He thinks he's got a great plan. Even the Imperials start to get worried. Then the fleet leaves the warp and just evaporates in a poof, and Tzeentch turns that Daemon into a Chaos Spawn for being such an idiot.

So, yes, there are bigger problems than just the daemons' willingness to play Bob the Builder.

[Purple]

Firstly, I newer said a demon would actually do it.

Read my post:

It's just that the chaos gods and demons mostly have more fun and important things to do.

Also, I did not know this:

In the novel Eye of Terror, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch actually tries his hand at building a Chaos fleet. He thinks he's got a great plan. Even the Imperials start to get worried. Then the fleet leaves the warp and just evaporates in a poof, and Tzeentch turns that Daemon into a Chaos Spawn for being such an idiot.

So, yes, there are bigger problems than just the daemons' willingness to play Bob the Builder.

But is there anywhere in the book mentioned just what kind of technique the demon used? If he used his own power to hold things together in some sort of structural integrity field star trek style than yes, I expect it would collapse.

[white_rabbit]

Why don't the Chaos Gods simply wave armour into existence? The Warp is their plaything, you'd think they wouldn't need any of this stealing and squabbling over meagre resources. There are daemons the size of worlds inside the Eye of Terror for Christ's sake. Why not just make millions of forgeworlds?

Newer stuff doesn't really go into it in as much detail, but the Chaos Gods aren't particularly sane.

They are basically like pokemon trainers and wargamers, mixed with D&D players, internet denizens, channers and Cthulhu.

This doesn't make for a particularly solid game plan, and typically a vast proportion of the military muscle of the EoT is busy shooting itself, because the local powers want to see who has the biggest Warp-Penis at that moment.

except they might not be shooting each other, because the Gods will have banned the use of anything but foam cricket bats in combat, or other non-lethal weaponry. Only people with two heads can fight etc.

This is actually the sort of thing they do. Theres one scene in BloodQuest where a vast, ridiculous horde of chaos guys kill the shit out of each other, just so the last thing standing can get his palm read by a daemon oracle. He's immediately shot to death by the protagonists, but you get the gist of what I'm saying.

Actually winning the war against the Imperium isn't necessarily the outcome the Gods are after. One thing that has been demonstrated repeatedly is that becoming a full daemon, not just the Daemon Prince Lite that we seem to get so often, results in you completely abandoning your interest in the mortal realm.

Out of universe, its a pretty handy tool to keep guys like the Chaos Primarchs from simply twisting Abaddon's head off and killing their way into the Imperium, but in universe, being a warp creature means you are basically insane from our perspective.