'The isoton'

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: Higher production cost maybe? some other draw back? we see normal torps in use again afterwards?

The metaphasic shield would at least be in every ST ships database since they carry alot of useless scientific data around - you are honestly telling me that SF would not use this tech to research stars instead they would just ignore it for no reason.

They've done it before. The planet-cracking bomb, the Deflector Dish trick, numerous tech-of-the-weeks. This is how it is. Deal with it.

[Ender]

It hasn't stopped them from not using stuff like that before, has it?

Examples please?

Null Space Catapult
Co-Axial Warp Core
Subspace Transporters
Genesis Device
Phase Cloaks
all the specialized torpedoes they've developed over the years

[Ender]

And you had better be grateful for those examples. I had to visit DITL to get them. *shudder*

I feel so dirty. Like I'm covered in stupidity after having gone to that site. It's the same feeling I get after I visit DarkStar's site.
Maybe I should get St. Dogbert to exorcise my computer for me...

[SirNitram]

And you had better be grateful for those examples. I had to visit DITL to get them. *shudder*

I feel so dirty. Like I'm covered in stupidity after having gone to that site. It's the same feeling I get after I visit DarkStar's site.
Maybe I should get St. Dogbert to exorcise my computer for me...

I have a cure for this.

*Whips out a HTL*

Stand in front, please.

[Setesh]

And you had better be grateful for those examples. I had to visit DITL to get them. *shudder*

I feel so dirty. Like I'm covered in stupidity after having gone to that site. It's the same feeling I get after I visit DarkStar's site.
Maybe I should get St. Dogbert to exorcise my computer for me...

I find it funny that even with Kennedy's overestimated 'speculation' numbers for trek shielding and firepower a single shot from a LTL over powers Voyagers entire sheid system by more than 20000 joules in a single shot. I'm writing a fic using GK's numbers, the fights a bit more of a challenge for the Scout Fource sent out But they still get toasted. And I haven't even brought the Empire in yet, the scout fleet is a merc group working for Vader (They're my old RPG group and out NPC merc troops with the addition of a 'Imperial Advisor'). They have 1 Victory Star Destroyer, that's the largest ship in the task force.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Actually I was joking about writing a story that explained GK's inflation as a "Factor in Scaling" that results in 20 meter tall Federation crews......

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

And you had better be grateful for those examples. I had to visit DITL to get them. *shudder*

I feel so dirty. Like I'm covered in stupidity after having gone to that site. It's the same feeling I get after I visit DarkStar's site.
Maybe I should get St. Dogbert to exorcise my computer for me...

I find it funny that even with Kennedy's overestimated 'speculation' numbers for trek shielding and firepower a single shot from a LTL over powers Voyagers entire sheid system by more than 20000 joules in a single shot. I'm writing a fic using GK's numbers, the fights a bit more of a challenge for the Scout Fource sent out But they still get toasted. And I haven't even brought the Empire in yet, the scout fleet is a merc group working for Vader (They're my old RPG group and out NPC merc troops with the addition of a 'Imperial Advisor'). They have 1 Victory Star Destroyer, that's the largest ship in the task force.

They have ONE....VICTORY...STAR...DESTROYER.

Let me guess. There won't be a fight at all.

[TheDarkling]

It hasn't stopped them from not using stuff like that before, has it?

Examples please?

Null Space Catapult
Co-Axial Warp Core
Subspace Transporters
Genesis Device
Phase Cloaks
all the specialized torpedoes they've developed over the years

Co-Axial Warp Core - Voiyager is one ship alone maybe they couldnt keep the device up and running or even do a proper install.

Subspace Trans has been used at least twice however it is unstable and has a warping effect on organic tissue.

Genesis Device was unstable due to prtotmatter and was forgotten about.

Phase cloaks are not allowed under the terms of the treaty of Algeron.

Specialised torps as in they had a specific use for one type of incident?

The planet-cracking bomb, the Deflector Dish trick

Im not sure what you refer to with he planet cracking bomb.

The deflector dish trick was used on in 2 situation however it had many draw backs to its use such as it drained huge amounts of power and caused an overspill of radiation, it is also not an effective combat weapon and was specialised for use against the Borg.
I doubt this trick as you call it is lost tech either.

[SirNitram]

Actually, the Deflector Dish trick would be a devastating weapon.. You do know how dangerous radiation is to other living beings like Klingons and Romulans, right? Not to mention you're pouring more power than your torpedo complement into your foe.

But they don't use it.

Torpedos of yields up to 500 Isotons are mentioned. Yet these are never pulled out against the Borg or Dominion.

Trans-Phasics and Batmobile armour are not going to be seen in Nemesis...

The Isokinetic Cannon which Voyager was outfitted with was never seen again...

Subtrans, despite your wishes, is not being used to beam bombs into other people's ships....

[TheDarkling]

The deflector weapon is awful - it puts the ship firing it out of action for a few hours at least - what if the enemy dodges it, it is after all a straight firing weapon or what if one enemy ship comes along while you entire fleet is sitting in space waiting for the systems to be repaired , it just aint practicle.

The trans phasic weapons and batmobile armor can be explained easily - time ban (simple) however the stuff could still be nudergoing R&D or may not have been built into the Ent-E because other ships are getting priority (its been on assignment etc).

The Isokinetic cannon can be explained that its too high energy or Janeways an idiot something which I dont think anyone can argue against.

Subtrans I have already dealt with.

The fact is you can come up with no reason to think SF would forget metaphasic shielding especially when the tech was such a find and would have huge benefits for stella study added to the fact that its has no downside all it takes is some computer space and if they can fit the amount of junk onto computers as they have done Im sure they could fit in that info.

[SirNitram]

I have my reason, Darkling. They are never stated to use it again. That's all the reason I need. They are never, ever, ever mentioned outside the two uses they have of it. You didn't 'explain' Subtrans either, unless you're suddenly conceeding your 12 page stupidities where you constantly affirm it's useful for bombs. The Deflector Dish can be used to divert less power.. It's a straight DET weapon, the only one that they seem to have that doesn't work pathetically when needed.

Do you want me to pull out MORE tech they've used once and never again?

The planetbuster from Operation: Annihilate!

Self-Replicating Mines.

Cloaking Mines.

Worf's kinetic shield.

You can invent excuses all you want... I'm sure you will... But it does not change the fact that these are ALL lost tech, just like your precious metaphasics.

Of course, I could be nice and generous. I could. I'll be so nice I'll tell you what most calc's place their power at. Approximately 150 Kilotons. Congratultions, it can survive about ten seconds under fire from Slave I.

Of course, you'll ignore this, just as you did when I presented calc's for the S8472's PK Beam, because it hurts your argument and you have no rebuttals.

[Sea Skimmer]

I don’t believe they ever finished installing the Isokinetic Cannon. They mounted it for test firing, but there was a lot of talk about installation, which was never acted on before the main plot got going and all was forgotten.

[TheDarkling]

Mining systems is an act of war so it understandable the feds not using them again, you are living by some sort opf weird analysis where if they dont mention it every few episodes it must be lost tech.

Worf kinetic shield - you his forcefield well Federation ground troops have personal force fields Ref Paradise Lost.

I also never said the metaphasic shield would be useful in fact I asked why it would be.

So SirNitram who many times must tech be used before the federation could be said to have it and where did you come up with this number?

I also cant believe you think self replicating mines are lost tech - theres no evuidence for that whatsoever, you seem to believe that if the federation doesnnt deploy something everyone five minutes its lost tech.

Where do you come off saying everything is lost tech - some things I understand but everything that evry ship doesnt carry or demonstrate at least what? once a season?.

U have shown that the federatioin has knowledge of how to use a metaphasic shield, I have also shown that it would be of use to them yet you argue because we dont see it again the Feds erased all info on it because.....? oh yes of course you dont say why.

[SirNitram]

It must be used more than twice. Otherwise I can now declare the exact same thing for the Empire, and they can outfit ISD's with Quantum Crystalline Armour. It's bullshit either way, you just don't want to beleive it's bullshit for the Feds, because it'd shatter your precious hopes.

I'd say at least five times, maybe once a season. Not something that disappears, and is never seen again, even when it would be incredibly useful like when during I, Borg or Relics, in which they got close to stars as well. But no Metaphasic Shields. Therefore, since they would have been useful there, but they were not used, they are lost tech.

Now, I'm going to dismantle your entire line of argument in one stroke. Why? Because, as my sig suggests, I'm an asshole to idiots.

Using statistics from our own star(Because the star in Descent Part II was also yellow and also supported life like our own), the upper limit for energy absorbed where the E-D was, was 5TW. Over the five minute period that was stated, that's about 1500TJ, or 150 kilotons of energy.

Yet in Relics, they can withstand bombardment from the star for three hours, a bombardment that totals close to(But not quite) 100,000TJ.

Looks like Metaphasics are actually worse than normal shields. Too bad, so sad.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: You can read right? I know I have asked before but I never get an answer hmm maybe that is an answer.

The crystalline armour isnt used fleet wide because its mentioned to be special and its more costly and in fact during NJO Luke is shocked that its in use for the temple on Vortex until a former mad scientist (ok mayb e see wasnt mad just misinformed) reminds him she still has her notes and we are also told that the new republic has the info on file but its classified.
Now since we see ships in action during NJO and they arent tougher than normal ships and theres no indication of them having new armor we conclude they dont have it.
Could the new republic build ships that used it? most likely but thus far we havent seen it used fleet wide and have indications against it.

Sorry to disapoint you by pointing out your flawed logic.

In I.Borg it wasnt ready - in fact we are told it hasnt been tested until Descent part one so thats easy enough to refute.
As for relics - the ship wasnt in good shape so I think that also explains that away.

Dismantle my arguemnt? hmm thats nice except I never said it was useful you are pulling a Darkstar and making things up - in fact three times I have asked why it wouild be useful.

That being said in the descent the ship had already taken Borg fire (it was also a test run so probably wasnt upto spec) and in your little example there why dont you work out the figures from the metaphasic test when it went into a super powerful star using only a shuttle?

Conclusion: SirNitram comes up with an easily refuted argument that he even knows himself is incorrect.
He then invents a theory and refutes it claiming victory when a)this theory has been put forward by only himself and b)his refuting doesnt stand up that well.

I dont expect an apology for your mistake (I wont call it a lie since im being kind) because afterall you are what your sig states you to be.

[SirNitram]

Keep telling yourself your theory is reasonable. Go on, keep yapping to yourself how smart you are and how you can make such things possible. You obviously think you have some high ground here, claiming to use a special tech only seen twice, when I, apparantly, cannot. I don't care about how super-duper-easy-peasy you think it is to install Metaphasic shielding. It was not present in Relics, that's for damn sure. The normal shielding did better than the Metaphasics in Relics, which destroys your precious argument.

But you'll keep yapping away, just like Dark Star...

[TheDarkling]

Did I say metaphasic shielding was amazing? NO
Did I say Feds ship have access to it? YES

Thats it you are pulling a complete Darkstar by fightng an unknown foe.

I do however accept your concession.

[SirNitram]

Did I say metaphasic shielding was amazing? NO
Did I say Feds ship have access to it? YES

Thats it you are pulling a complete Darkstar by fightng an unknown foe.

I do however accept your concession.

What concession? You've yet to prove it's in common use.

[Setesh]

And you had better be grateful for those examples. I had to visit DITL to get them. *shudder*

I feel so dirty. Like I'm covered in stupidity after having gone to that site. It's the same feeling I get after I visit DarkStar's site.
Maybe I should get St. Dogbert to exorcise my computer for me...

I find it funny that even with Kennedy's overestimated 'speculation' numbers for trek shielding and firepower a single shot from a LTL over powers Voyagers entire sheid system by more than 20000 joules in a single shot. I'm writing a fic using GK's numbers, the fights a bit more of a challenge for the Scout Fource sent out But they still get toasted. And I haven't even brought the Empire in yet, the scout fleet is a merc group working for Vader (They're my old RPG group and out NPC merc troops with the addition of a 'Imperial Advisor'). They have 1 Victory Star Destroyer, that's the largest ship in the task force.

They have ONE....VICTORY...STAR...DESTROYER.

Let me guess. There won't be a fight at all.

Not yet anyway. The intergalatic Gate is in a nebula (hense why the Feds haven't found it before now) when they come out they were spotted by a Runabout the crew and passenger are killed during the attempt to take them alive. (Plasma power systems and Ion cannons don't mix) it didn't help that neither side could scan (the nebula is a little weird) past each others existance. The Ion con trol station thought the Runaabout would have sheilds on par with a Lambda at least so fired accordingly. The runabout survived, slightly singed though. In the cargo bay is a new computer core for someone at their destination. Its contents, the total data and conclusions of one 'Pathfinder' project.

[TheDarkling]

Did I say metaphasic shielding was amazing? NO
Did I say Feds ship have access to it? YES

Thats it you are pulling a complete Darkstar by fightng an unknown foe.

I do however accept your concession.

What concession? You've yet to prove it's in common use.

I dont have to - its available to the feds and only requires some programming, theres no reason for it not to be stabdard for any ship.

The concession was the fact that you hadnt proven I said the metaphasic shields were anything other than availble like you claimed and you still havent.

[SirNitram]

I dont have to - its available to the feds and only requires some programming, theres no reason for it not to be stabdard for any ship.

The concession was the fact that you hadnt proven I said the metaphasic shields were anything other than availble like you claimed and you still havent.

Actually, you do. It's called burden of proof, dumbass. It lies on you, for saying a tech seen only twice is now widespread.

[TheDarkling]

No I have done, I have proved that it is useful and theres no reason against it being widespread and every reason for it.

Just because you place some arbritary number on the amount of times a tech is shown doesnt mean you are correct.

Anyone going into a sun is going to use the shield designed for going into suns and theres no reason for it not to.

Evidence For - Check.
Evidence against - nope none.

Theory explaining why it still exists - Check.
Theory for why it vanished without a trace for the entire nkown universe - nope.

Still silent on your "mistake" I see.

[SirNitram]

No I have done, I have proved that it is useful and theres no reason against it being widespread and every reason for it.

Just because you place some arbritary number on the amount of times a tech is shown doesnt mean you are correct.

Anyone going into a sun is going to use the shield designed for going into suns and theres no reason for it not to.

Evidence For - Check.
Evidence against - nope none.

Theory explaining why it still exists - Check.
Theory for why it vanished without a trace for the entire nkown universe - nope.

Still silent on your "mistake" I see.

Actual Proof Any Ship Other Than The E-D Has Ever Employed It, Ever, In The Entire Timestream: Zero, Zip, Zilch.

No proof is, of course, a concession of defeat, Darkling.

Now. Proof it is in use by Starfleet. Not supposition, not assurances, proof, in the form of a quote from an episode.

[Mr Bean]

No I have done, I have proved that it is useful and theres no reason against it being widespread and every reason for it.

Then why don't we see it? If most of these tecnologys where as useful as you depict them why the heck are they not going to use it?

Anyone going into a sun is going to use the shield designed for going into suns and theres no reason for it not to.

Logic Error, Yes Timmy you can make a toaster into a CD Player
How much is if freken possible to adjust those magic shields?

And why don't they use any of these Tecnologys agian?

[TheDarkling]

Yes ok I admit it for some magical reason only Galaxy class ships and shuttles (and ferengi ships) can use it the entire research was a mad experiment and despite being claimed to be revolutionary by all it was in fact only capable of being used by the above ships, the reasons why im not sure, the proof I have for the theory above zip however it must be more pluasable than the alternative why? because Sirnitram says so.

We arent going to agree simply because you are dragging your heels - if we saw for example Voy using it then im sure it would only be Intrepids , Galaxies, Shuttles and ferengi ships oh and klingon becauses they were interested in the tech and Vulcan because they were doing research into the field and whatever race Jo Bril was from.

You alternative hangs in no where but yes I cant show you an example of every ship the ST universe using it you have no alternative to what I propose but simply refute it because its lacking 100% evidence it is however the only theory put forward that fits the facts.

I await you third (forth?) repetition of what you orignally said in true Darkstar fashion - I suggest we simply drop it because I cant convince you and theres no way I will abandon reason and intelect simply because ST didnt have a very special Metaphasic shield hour.