(Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won"

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(Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won"

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George Monbiot, The Guardian, September 20th wrote:
Climate change enlightenment was fun while it lasted. But now it's dead

The collapse of the talks at Copenhagen took away all momentum for change and the lobbyists are back in control. So what next?

The closer it comes, the worse it looks. The best outcome anyone now expects from December's climate summit in Mexico is that some delegates might stay awake during the meetings. When talks fail once, as they did in Copenhagen, governments lose interest. They don't want to be associated with failure, they don't want to pour time and energy into a broken process. Nine years after the world trade negotiations moved to Mexico after failing in Qatar, they remain in diplomatic limbo. Nothing in the preparations for the climate talks suggests any other outcome.

A meeting in China at the beginning of October is supposed to clear the way for Cancún. The hosts have already made it clear that it's going nowhere: there are, a top Chinese climate change official explains, still "huge differences between developed and developing countries". Everyone blames everyone else for the failure at Copenhagen. Everyone insists that everyone else should move.

But nobody cares enough to make a fight of it. The disagreements are simultaneously entrenched and muted. The doctor's certificate has not been issued; perhaps, to save face, it never will be. But the harsh reality we have to grasp is that the process is dead.

In 2012 the only global deal for limiting greenhouse gas emissions – the Kyoto protocol – expires. There is no realistic prospect that it will be replaced before it elapses: the existing treaty took five years to negotiate and a further eight years to come into force. In terms of real hopes for global action on climate change, we are now far behind where we were in 1997, or even 1992. It's not just that we have lost 18 precious years. Throughout the age of good intentions and grand announcements we spiralled backwards.

Nor do regional and national commitments offer more hope. An analysis published a few days ago by the campaigning group Sandbag estimates the amount of carbon that will have been saved by the end of the second phase of the EU's emissions trading system, in 2012; after the hopeless failure of the scheme's first phase we were promised that the real carbon cuts would start to bite between 2008 and 2012. So how much carbon will it save by then? Less than one third of 1%.

Worse still, the reduction in industrial output caused by the recession has allowed big polluters to build up a bank of carbon permits which they can carry into the next phase of the trading scheme. If nothing is done to annul them or to crank down the proposed carbon cap (which, given the strength of industrial lobbies and the weakness of government resolve, is unlikely) these spare permits will vitiate phase three as well. Unlike the Kyoto protocol, the EU's emissions trading system will remain alive. It will also remain completely useless.

Plenty of nations – like Britain – have produced what appear to be robust national plans for cutting greenhouse gases. With one exception (the Maldives), their targets fall far short of the reductions needed to prevent more than two degrees of global warming.

Even so, none of them are real. Missing from the proposed cuts are the net greenhouse gas emissions we have outsourced to other countries and now import in the form of manufactured goods. Were these included in the UK's accounts, alongside the aviation, shipping and tourism gases excluded from official figures, Britain's emissions would rise by 48%. Rather than cutting our contribution to global warming by 19% since 1990, as the government boasts, we have increased it by about 29%. It's the same story in most developed nations. Our apparent success results entirely from failures elsewhere.

Hanging over everything is the growing recognition that the United States isn't going to play. Not this year, perhaps not in any year. If Congress couldn't pass a climate bill so feeble that it consisted of little but loopholes while Barack Obama was president and the Democrats had a majority in both houses, where does hope lie for action in other circumstances? Last Tuesday the Guardian reported that of 48 Republican contenders for the Senate elections in November only one accepted that man-made climate change is taking place. Who was he? Mike Castle of Delaware. The following day he was defeated by the Tea Party candidate Christine O'Donnell, producing a full house of science deniers. The enlightenment? Fun while it lasted.

What all this means is that there is not a single effective instrument for containing man-made global warming anywhere on earth. The response to climate change, which was described by Lord Stern as "a result of the greatest market failure the world has seen", is the greatest political failure the world has ever seen.

Nature won't wait for us. The US government's National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reports that the first eight months of 2010 were as hot as the first eight months of 1998 – the warmest ever recorded. But there's a crucial difference. In 1998 there was a record El Niño – the warm phase of the natural Pacific temperature oscillation. The 2010 El Niño was smaller (an anomaly peaking at roughly 1.8C, rather than 2.5C), and brief by comparison to those of recent years. Since May the oscillation has been in its cool phase (La Niña): even so, June, July and August this year were the second warmest on record. The stronger the warnings, the less capable of action we become.

Where does this leave us? How should we respond to the reality we have tried not to see: that in 18 years of promise and bluster nothing has happened? Environmentalists tend to blame themselves for these failures. Perhaps we should have made people feel better about their lives. Or worse. Perhaps we should have done more to foster hope. Or despair. Perhaps we were too fixated on grand visions. Or techno-fixes. Perhaps we got too close to business. Or not close enough. The truth is that there is not and never was a strategy certain of success, as the powers ranged against us have always been stronger than we are.

Greens are a puny force by comparison to industrial lobby groups, the cowardice of governments and the natural human tendency to deny what we don't want to see. To compensate for our weakness, we indulged a fantasy of benign paternalistic power – acting, though the political mechanisms were inscrutable, in the wider interests of humankind. We allowed ourselves to believe that, with a little prompting and protest, somewhere, in a distant institutional sphere, compromised but decent people would take care of us. They won't. They weren't ever going to do so. So what do we do now?

I don't know. These failures have exposed not only familiar political problems, but deep-rooted human weakness. All I know is that we must stop dreaming about an institutional response that will never materialise and start facing a political reality we've sought to avoid. The conversation starts here.
His logic is hard to fault, frankly. I could understand public apathy and political inaction while climate change was only measurable as a line on a sheet of graph paper, or even when the effects first started showing; Godawful natural disasters befalling coloured people thousands of miles away is pretty much business as usual as far as our news media's concerned.
But Britain's had chronic flooding in what, three out of the last six years, and heavy enough snow to shut most of the country down in five? I've seen more severe weather warnings on the news in the same period than the previous eighteen years of my life. It takes a very special kind of wooden-headed stupidity to write that off as coincidence.

So, like Monbiot says, what do we do now? And is there in fact anything we can do?
Personally, I'm going to start looking for a nice self-sufficient hilltop to fortify.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Calm down and direct yourself to the nearest archived thread on the "inevitable" loss of Obama from 2008. Monbiot is onto something, but at the risk of sounding useless and uninformative, it's too early to make this kind of judgment.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:Calm down and direct yourself to the nearest archived thread on the "inevitable" loss of Obama from 2008. Monbiot is onto something, but at the risk of sounding useless and uninformative, it's too early to make this kind of judgment.
No, it isn't. Face it, even the best governments are corrupt and even if they were not do not want to take the steps necessary to curb climate change, because to do so in any meaningful way would require a drop in the excess consumption present in the developed nations, and a drop in the economic growth of developing nations. We have so little time before positive feedback loops start changing the climate for us that there is no reason to suspect that we will beat the ticking clock. More amphibians will go extinct, 20% of lizards will be gone, and pretty much every species with temp dependent sex determination will have their sex ratios royally fucked. That of course ignores what will happen to agriculture and coastal population centers.

Strap yourselves in. Our civilization is in for a bumpy ride.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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George Monbiot wrote:Where does this leave us? How should we respond to the reality we have tried not to see: that in 18 years of promise and bluster nothing has happened? Environmentalists tend to blame themselves for these failures. Perhaps we should have made people feel better about their lives. Or worse. Perhaps we should have done more to foster hope. Or despair. Perhaps we were too fixated on grand visions. Or techno-fixes. Perhaps we got too close to business. Or not close enough. The truth is that there is not and never was a strategy certain of success, as the powers ranged against us have always been stronger than we are.
The bolded is part of the problem, but only part. The truth is that stopping climate change has always been the Public Policy Problem from Hell:

1. Seemingly far-off dire consequences - and by the time they hit in full force, it's too late;
2. Highly complex and difficult changes to worldwide energy production and consumption, involving global cooperation;
3. Powerful institutional actors, both corporate and governmental, that oppose any efforts to make the necessary changes;
4. Incentives to cheat and garner the economic benefits from doing so at the national level.

You really just can't ask for a more difficult policy to implement. It's not the fault of the environmentalists.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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Alyrium Denryle wrote: Face it, even the best governments are corrupt and even if they were not do not want to take the steps necessary to curb climate change, because to do so in any meaningful way would require a drop in the excess consumption present in the developed nations, and a drop in the economic growth of developing nations.
Why do you want brown/yellow/black people foreigners to suffer?

In 1990 about 60% of China's population lived in extreme poverty (making less than $1-$1.25 a day). By 2005; it was only 16%. Link.

So you'd rather halt economic growth which is lifting untold millions out of crippling poverty to save some lizards?
That of course ignores what will happen to agriculture and coastal population centers.

You mean like Siberia or the Canadian Shield opening up for agriculture?
Strap yourselves in. Our civilization is in for a bumpy ride.
Not really. We'll survive whatever that coldhearted bitch of a planet throws at us -- we survived some really impressive climactic changes back in the good old days of bearskins.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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That's a really poor basis for policy. By that standard, why worry about housing standards, plumbing, rights, etc? WE BEAT THE NEANDERTHALS WITHOUT IT WE'LL BE FINE. Not to mention the hilarious hypocrisy of pollution changing environment to harm humans = NATURE IS A COLD BITCH. :lol:

Amusingly ancient civilisations would probably be more capable of dealing with it than we are.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Bakustra »

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: Face it, even the best governments are corrupt and even if they were not do not want to take the steps necessary to curb climate change, because to do so in any meaningful way would require a drop in the excess consumption present in the developed nations, and a drop in the economic growth of developing nations.
Why do you want brown/yellow/black people foreigners to suffer?

In 1990 about 60% of China's population lived in extreme poverty (making less than $1-$1.25 a day). By 2005; it was only 16%. Link.

So you'd rather halt economic growth which is lifting untold millions out of crippling poverty to save some lizards?
How about, slowed economic growth (or aid from developed nations to make developing nations more sustainable) now to prevent potential collapses down the road? Or is the concept of a future beyond 2012 currently impossible for you to conceive of?
That of course ignores what will happen to agriculture and coastal population centers.

You mean like Siberia or the Canadian Shield opening up for agriculture?
So your goal is to destroy even more trees so as to increase the rate of global warming? Granted, it's not like you will bother responding seriously, so may I ask if you are trying to start runaway positive feedback in the atmosphere?
Strap yourselves in. Our civilization is in for a bumpy ride.
Not really. We'll survive whatever that coldhearted bitch of a planet throws at us -- we survived some really impressive climactic changes back in the good old days of bearskins.
Yes, I can see how hunter-gatherer societies would be really appealing, especially with trashed biodiversity.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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At this point we get to sit back and wait for the methane under the ocean to melt, then say "Told you so!".
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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MKSheppard wrote:
That of course ignores what will happen to agriculture and coastal population centers.
You mean like Siberia or the Canadian Shield opening up for agriculture?
I don't know about Siberia, but unless my University geology textbooks are all wrong the Canadian Shield has pretty shitty soil and most of it isn't suitable for farming even if we had the right weather conditions.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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Why do you want brown/yellow/black people foreigners to suffer?

In 1990 about 60% of China's population lived in extreme poverty (making less than $1-$1.25 a day). By 2005; it was only 16%. Link.

So you'd rather halt economic growth which is lifting untold millions out of crippling poverty to save some lizards?
Actually, no. The problems are not actually mutually exclusive. First, you slow, not halt, economic growth in the third world. Second, economic growth is not what increases standard of living. Per capita GDP and a low GINI are what do that. I have run the regressions myself on that dataset in other threads.

You can slow economic growth, and provided you have policies in place to decrease GINI, you will find that your standard of living continues to increase while your net carbon emissions drop.

You know how you do that? Wealth redistribution, worker-owned businesses that distribute the benefits of company earnings more equitably, social safety nets that moderate risk, investment in public education.
You mean like Siberia or the Canadian Shield opening up for agriculture?
HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

You think it works that way? No. Global Warming increases the average temperature. It causes other things besides things getting balmy. First off, it will change precipitation patterns, and generally increases climatic variation due to changes in air currents etc. Not sure how this will impact those regions. What i do know is that the soil there is absolute and complete shit for agriculture.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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Although it would amuse me to no end to learn that Stephen Harper's foot dragging on the issue is so he can turn Ontario into a nuAlberta/SK.

But yeah, Canadian Shield extends across Ontario, Quebec, the territories, and even northern Saskatchewan and Manitoba (and a corner of Alberta). We don't farm up there here in the west because the soil is garbage.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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Phantasee wrote:But yeah, Canadian Shield extends across Ontario, Quebec, the territories, and even northern Saskatchewan and Manitoba (and a corner of Alberta). We don't farm up there here in the west because the soil is garbage.
You could grow marijuana crops, then again that plant is called weed for a reason since it'll grow damn near anywhere.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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I somehow doubt that Harper would be in favor of turning Ontario into a giant grow op for you.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Guardsman Bass »

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: Face it, even the best governments are corrupt and even if they were not do not want to take the steps necessary to curb climate change, because to do so in any meaningful way would require a drop in the excess consumption present in the developed nations, and a drop in the economic growth of developing nations.
Why do you want brown/yellow/black people foreigners to suffer?

In 1990 about 60% of China's population lived in extreme poverty (making less than $1-$1.25 a day). By 2005; it was only 16%. Link.

So you'd rather halt economic growth which is lifting untold millions out of crippling poverty to save some lizards?
I suppose the bright side is that they'll be able to promptly turn around and pay billions in terms of dealing with sea level rises, crop failures, water supply shrinkage, desertification, and hordes of climate-related refugees.
MKSheppard wrote:
That of course ignores what will happen to agriculture and coastal population centers.

You mean like Siberia or the Canadian Shield opening up for agriculture?
You'd prefer that over not having the Great Plains turning back into a desert?
MKSheppard wrote:
Strap yourselves in. Our civilization is in for a bumpy ride.
Not really. We'll survive whatever that coldhearted bitch of a planet throws at us -- we survived some really impressive climactic changes back in the good old days of bearskins.
It's still going to be a bumpy ride.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Samuel »

You'd prefer that over not having the Great Plains turning back into a desert?
I don't think we can blame global warming as much as the fact we are depleting the aquifers that supply the water needed for the farming we do. I wonder how we will get the water when we deplete the aquifers? We can desalinate and pump it up from the ocean, but I'm pretty sure it would be easier to switch to hydroponics at that point.
Actually, no. The problems are not actually mutually exclusive. First, you slow, not halt, economic growth in the third world. Second, economic growth is not what increases standard of living. Per capita GDP and a low GINI are what do that. I have run the regressions myself on that dataset in other threads.

You can slow economic growth, and provided you have policies in place to decrease GINI, you will find that your standard of living continues to increase while your net carbon emissions drop.
Alysium, Shep's point is that holding all other factors constant, growth is good. Sure redistribution may improve living standards, but redistribution and growth will cause it to increase even faster so it is a trade off.
worker-owned businesses that distribute the benefits of company earnings more equitably,
I don't think worker owned businesses work great. You have the problem that workers disagree about how important each worker is to the company and if they are very differentiated this can be enough to make such a firm unmanagable.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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Stark wrote:That's a really poor basis for policy. By that standard, why worry about housing standards, plumbing, rights, etc? WE BEAT THE NEANDERTHALS WITHOUT IT WE'LL BE FINE. Not to mention the hilarious hypocrisy of pollution changing environment to harm humans = NATURE IS A COLD BITCH. :lol:
Aly's original line was:

Strap yourselves in. Our civilization is in for a bumpy ride.

The last time human civilization underwent climate change on a scale this large as is hypothesized, we were basically hunter-gatherers with virtually no technic base to speak of and our food pyramid was highly susceptible to climactic change through prey animal's ranges shrinking or moving.

Now? We have highly advanced agriculture and animal husbandry methods, a whole courncoupia of portable power production methods ranging from ye olde ICE running off anything from gasoline to a variety of other fuels to future technologies like fuel cells.

The people who STILL rely on hunter-gatherer methods or very low subsistence grazing to generate their food staples in the 21st fucking century are going to be hit hard -- giving more impetus to further urbanization in Africa for example.

There's also the fact that the more advanced technic societies like the US, Russia and China will not hesitate to throw the third world under the bus if need be. You only need to look at the recent fires in Russia -- Putin simply went 'that's it, no more foreign grain exports from Russia for this year'.

This of course will increase the stresses on low-technic societies which are prone to chronic food shortages, and we'll see more wars and violence in Africa.

But elsewhere? You'll see an uptick in the price of food by a few percentage points as technic civilization adapts to the new environment (like for example reducing the amount of farm subsidies so that more food is grown instead of letting the fields lie fallow). With a lowered amount of arable land due to CC, this means that a higher percentage of it will be in use rather than being left to lay fallow via subsidies.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Actually, no. The problems are not actually mutually exclusive. First, you slow, not halt, economic growth in the third world. Second, economic growth is not what increases standard of living. Per capita GDP and a low GINI are what do that. I have run the regressions myself on that dataset in other threads.

You can slow economic growth, and provided you have policies in place to decrease GINI, you will find that your standard of living continues to increase while your net carbon emissions drop.

You know how you do that? Wealth redistribution, worker-owned businesses that distribute the benefits of company earnings more equitably, social safety nets that moderate risk, investment in public education.
But given how much the Western world cares about the third world nations, they would be fucked even if they slowed down their economic development.

Let's say the entire world gets even more royally fucked once the effects of global warming is felt in full force, which nations would be best equipped to deal with it? Having good GINI coefficient doesn't mean that your country has the necessary strength to deal with it.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by MKSheppard »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Per capita GDP and a low GINI are what do that. I have run the regressions myself on that dataset in other threads.
Too bad that China's GINI is about equal to the United States' -- with India being a bit better (!!).

So again, why do you hate brown/yellow people foreigners?

I certainly am glad that I do my bit to raise China out of poverty with my new Kindle 3 -- Assembled in China by Foxconn.

In fact Foxconn's assembly lines have become a way for Chinese to get out of poverty -- go work for them for two years making SHROOMPADS and SHROOMPODS for the silly americans; and then use your saved money to set up a business elsewhere.
You think it works that way?
Right now the growing season in Northern Siberia and the Northern Canadian Shield is about 3 months or less. If you can raise this to four months via CC, the lower edges will become economic to grow at.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Starglider »

I blame the environmentalists. They could have rallied around the one positive solution to the problem - nuclear power - and pushed it as hard as possible. This would have gained instant allies in the nuclear power industry and countries supplying it. They could have credibly talked about maintaining/improving rather than reducing standards of living. Instead the vast majority of environmentalists continued to actively oppose the single viable solution.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by adam_grif »

Starglider wrote:I blame the environmentalists. They could have rallied around the one positive solution to the problem - nuclear power - and pushed it as hard as possible. This would have gained instant allies in the nuclear power industry and countries supplying it. They could have credibly talked about maintaining/improving rather than reducing standards of living. Instead the vast majority of environmentalists continued to actively oppose the single viable solution.
As with all politics, certain compromises are simply unacceptable for many environmentalists. Nuclear power is still very much a bogeyman to stupidly large numbers of otherwise well educated people. I had a chat to the Green's candidate for our city just before the recent federal election, and mentioning nuclear power was enough to set him on a rant about how dangerous radioactive waste is and how unsafe reactors are.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Zaune »

adam_grif wrote:As with all politics, certain compromises are simply unacceptable for many environmentalists. Nuclear power is still very much a bogeyman to stupidly large numbers of otherwise well educated people. I had a chat to the Green's candidate for our city just before the recent federal election, and mentioning nuclear power was enough to set him on a rant about how dangerous radioactive waste is and how unsafe reactors are.
Let's face it, it's not without its drawbacks. Not only is the problem of disposing of the byproducts far from satisfactorily solved yet, though the environmental lobby has been part of the problem there, but if someone cuts a few too many corners on maintenance and/or safety procedures then Very Bad Shit goes down.
And I don't trust my government, or rather the cheapest/most buzzword-compliant/Minister for Energy's golfing buddy's contractor they'll bring in, not to do just that.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Bakustra »

Starglider wrote:I blame the environmentalists. They could have rallied around the one positive solution to the problem - nuclear power - and pushed it as hard as possible. This would have gained instant allies in the nuclear power industry and countries supplying it. They could have credibly talked about maintaining/improving rather than reducing standards of living. Instead the vast majority of environmentalists continued to actively oppose the single viable solution.
So you think that this is the environmentalists' fault? Would you be willing to prove that they consciously decided to oppose nuclear power for ideological reasons rather than an honest mistrust? Because frankly, it's the nuclear power companies that dropped the ball. They trumpeted how perfectly safe nuclear power was, and so when it failed to live up on one ground people lost faith in it completely. I suppose you could blame the media for this misconception, except that Chernobyl, Fermi, Three Mile Island, and Windscale all took place before or at the beginning of tabloidization of the media. In order to get environmentalists on your side, you'd have to convince them of the safety, viability, and usefulness of nuclear power. One problem is that many misconceptions have been allowed to fester, such as those about nuclear waste.

This is ignorant for other reasons. So how would nuclear power allow us to reduce automobile usage? How would it replace factories that release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere? It wouldn't, not without other technologies and/or societal change. So it's not the "single viable solution" in any sense. That's ignoring the actual environmental impact of nuclear power plants. Treating them as impactless is dishonest and the same behavior that led to the current opposition.
Zaune wrote: Let's face it, it's not without its drawbacks. Not only is the problem of disposing of the byproducts far from satisfactorily solved yet, though the environmental lobby has been part of the problem there, but if someone cuts a few too many corners on maintenance and/or safety procedures then Very Bad Shit goes down.
And I don't trust my government, or rather the cheapest/most buzzword-compliant/Minister for Energy's golfing buddy's contractor they'll bring in, not to do just that.
That's not solely a concern with nuclear power, though. Look up the Union Carbide plant in Bhopal, India. But here's the thing. How many government-operated facilities have suffered a catastrophic failure as a result of cost-cutting on maintenance? Your government may be more trustworthy on this than you think.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by mr friendly guy »

Funny Shep should mention China, in a discussion of an opinion piece about climate change deniers. Since China's leaders don't deny climate change, they just expect rich nations to pay more for it, since they have contributed to pollution for longer.

While if we wish to combat climate change effectively, we must make sacrifices. However there are ways to try and minimise it. Using the Chinese example since they as a whole are now the biggest polluter, although per capita they easily lag behind more developed nations.

increasing efficiency of industry
becoming a large producer of solar energy
Increasing wind power. According to wiki as of 2009 China is the third largest producer of wind power, however at the rate its been growing at by the end of this year it will surpass Germany to reach the number two spot, and possibly even claim the number one spot from the US.

Producing more efficient coal plants.
Investing in clean coal conversion technology

Unfortunately, coal still appears to make up the bulk of their energy sources, however drum roll nuclear. The board's favourite energy source behind hypermatter reactors of course. :wink: Of note
The government had planned to increase nuclear generating capacity to 40 GWe by 2020 (out of a total 1000 GWe then planned), with a further 18 GWe nuclear being under construction then. In March 2008, the newly-formed State Energy Bureau (SEB) said that the target for 2020 should be at least 5% of electricity from nuclear power, requiring at least 50 GWe to be in operation by then. In June 2008, the China Electrical Council projected 60 GWe of nuclear capacity by 2020. In July 2009, the State Council was reported to be considering raising the 2020 target to 86 GWe installed and 18 GWe under construction. For 2030, in May 2007 the National Development and Reform Commission announced that its target for nuclear generation capacity in 2030 was 160 GWe. In April 2010, the China Nuclear Energy Association projected 200 GWe nuclear by 2030. As of June 2010, official installed nuclear capacity targets are understood to be 80 GWe by 2020, 200 GWe by 2030 and 400 GWe by 2050.
They have increased their targets significantly. Well at least someone understands the awesomeness that is nuclear.

MKSheppard wrote:
I certainly am glad that I do my bit to raise China out of poverty with my new Kindle 3 -- Assembled in China by Foxconn.

In fact Foxconn's assembly lines have become a way for Chinese to get out of poverty -- go work for them for two years making SHROOMPADS and SHROOMPODS for the silly americans; and then use your saved money to set up a business elsewhere.
I will raise you one. On the weekend I am expecting delivery of furniture for my house, made in China of course. Next month I will be flying into China for a holiday and I plan to hold up to 5000 RMB spending money. I will be sure to tip those helpers generously (only if they do a good job of course). When I get back I plan to install solar panels into my house. According to my research the companies that install solar in my state either buy panels from China, or have it manufactured in China under Australian design. Oh, and did I mention the Hanvon touchpad I have my eye on, for around $900 AUD.
Bakustra wrote: So you think that this is the environmentalists' fault? Would you be willing to prove that they consciously decided to oppose nuclear power for ideological reasons rather than an honest mistrust? Because frankly, it's the nuclear power companies that dropped the ball. They trumpeted how perfectly safe nuclear power was, and so when it failed to live up on one ground people lost faith in it completely. I suppose you could blame the media for this misconception, except that Chernobyl, Fermi, Three Mile Island, and Windscale all took place before or at the beginning of tabloidization of the media. In order to get environmentalists on your side, you'd have to convince them of the safety, viability, and usefulness of nuclear power. One problem is that many misconceptions have been allowed to fester, such as those about nuclear waste.
I do find it weird he blamed the environmentalists more than the climate change deniers. :lol:
Bakustra wrote: This is ignorant for other reasons. So how would nuclear power allow us to reduce automobile usage?
By electric cars and having the nuclear plants provide the electricity. The problem is we don't have enough lithium to support both the electronics and electric car industry, even if the largest untapped lithium source Bolivia gets up and running and China increases production to its targets. Lets not even discuss lithium from Afghanistan. However we could recycle some of our electronic goods which might help. Keep in mind that this estimate is based on the fact that the electronic industry will continue to grow at current rates and all lithium goes to them first before to the car industry. While this won't make that much of a dent, it will reduce pollution from automobile usage.

The next step is in the development of new technology, such as hydrogen cells, where the nuclear plants use energy to produce the hydrogen. The technology is available, although I am unaware of how far a car could drive, and the catch is we need to adjust our infrastructure for it. That being said I have heard somewhere the electric cars might be the next step in the sense its easier to implement with hydrogen the next step.
Bakustra wrote: How would it replace factories that release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere? It wouldn't, not without other technologies and/or societal change. So it's not the "single viable solution" in any sense. That's ignoring the actual environmental impact of nuclear power plants. Treating them as impactless is dishonest and the same behavior that led to the current opposition.
It won't help the factories, however it would make a big difference to power generation by replacing coal with large carbon footprints, with nuclear. It certainly can play a bigger part than "renewables", so chalk Starglider's statement to over enthusiasm. As for the environmental impact I will leave the issue of waste disposal to more knowledgeable people, however if you are worried about explosions and all that, I suggest Pebble Bed Reactors, made in.... China.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by ray245 »

mr friendly guy wrote:
By electric cars and having the nuclear plants provide the electricity. The problem is we don't have enough lithium to support both the electronics and electric car industry, even if the largest untapped lithium source Bolivia gets up and running and China increases production to its targets. Lets not even discuss lithium from Afghanistan. However we could recycle some of our electronic goods which might help. Keep in mind that this estimate is based on the fact that the electronic industry will continue to grow at current rates and all lithium goes to them first before to the car industry. While this won't make that much of a dent, it will reduce pollution from automobile usage.

The next step is in the development of new technology, such as hydrogen cells, where the nuclear plants use energy to produce the hydrogen. The technology is available, although I am unaware of how far a car could drive, and the catch is we need to adjust our infrastructure for it. That being said I have heard somewhere the electric cars might be the next step in the sense its easier to implement with hydrogen the next step.
Either that, or we would have to change our lifestyle accordingly. Maybe someone would reintroduce trams as public transports?
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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Oh, I forgot the other thing one can do is to plant trees. China certainly has the man power to do it. The most famous example of China's attempts to reverse desertification is in the Loess Plateau.
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ray245 wrote:
Either that, or we would have to change our lifestyle accordingly. Maybe someone would reintroduce trams as public transports?
Singapore style monorails would be good, but I am afraid a lot of cities might not be so densely populated to make this viable. That being said Perth's public transport is pretty meh. Can't speak for other countries though.
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