George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Big Orange
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7108
Joined: 2006-04-22 05:15pm
Location: Britain

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Big Orange »

Due to outsourcing, immigration, and automation, getting a job has become much more of a challenge anyway and there's a lot of low wage part time work, for a lot of people being on welfare is a rational choice when wages and job availability is inadequate, and the public sector got as big as it did due to the many faux jobs created by Brown in an attempt energise the economy in face of the private sector shrinking.

And Scotland is stirring...
Welfare cuts 'will damage Scots economy'

Changes to the welfare system could take £500m from the Scottish economy, resulting in more than 10,000 job losses, a report has suggested.

The cuts will reduce spending power among poorer groups, according to the Scottish Local Government Forum Against Poverty and Rights Advice Scotland.

The study said people on low incomes tended to spend their money locally and so small businesses would suffer.

There would also be greater demands on hard-pressed council services, it said.

The UK government has warned that current levels of spending on welfare cannot continue, and it has already announced £11bn in cuts to benefits.

Willie Hogg, chair of the Scottish Local Government Forum Against Poverty, said the cuts equated to reducing the spending power of every woman, man and child in Scotland by about £100.

He added: "But the reality is that the poorest, most vulnerable and those with disabilities will be burdened with shouldering the weight of these cuts because it is their benefits that are most affected."

He said councils would be attempting to cut budgets while facing greater demands on their services, particularly in the areas of social work, housing and welfare advice.

And councils' income from charges, housing benefit administration, council tax and business rates would also decline as fewer residents would be able to pay, he claimed.

Chancellor George Osborne has said welfare cuts were needed to "take the pressure" off other government departments, which faced cuts of between 25% and 40%.

Mr Osborne came under fire last week after he told the BBC that welfare spending was "completely out of control" and suggested people who were making a "lifestyle choice" to live on benefits rather than trying to find work could find their support cut.
BBC
STUC in plea to Lib Dems on welfare

Union chiefs have turned on Liberal Democrat politicians after the party's UK leader mounted a staunch defence of radical benefit cuts.


The Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC) is sending letters to all Scottish Lib Dem MPs, MSPs and councillors urging them not to back the coalition Government over "the most draconian attack on welfare in a generation".

It comes as party activists prepare to gather for their UK conference in Liverpool, which starts on Saturday.

The STUC is also putting pressure on the Lib Dems after party leader and Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg argued welfare payments should not "compensate the poor for their predicament" but should instead act as "an engine of mobility".

Billions of pounds are to be slashed from the welfare budget by Chancellor George Osborne when he unveils the results of his drastic public spending review next month.

Mr Clegg told The Times on Thursday: "Welfare needs to become an engine of mobility, changing people's lives for the better, rather than a giant cheque written by the State to compensate the poor for their predicament.

"Instead of turning the system from a 'safety net' into a 'trampoline', as Labour promised, people have been stuck on benefits, year in, year out."

But in his letter to Lib Dems, STUC general secretary Grahame Smith argued: "It remains the fact that benefit payments in the UK are low compared to most other countries, income inequality is stubbornly high and work is not the automatic route out of poverty that it should be with the incidence of working family child poverty on the increase."

Mr Smith said his organisation was "horrified to contemplate the cuts" that could be made to the welfare system.

He urged party members: "The choice for Scottish Liberal Democrats is clear, you can choose to buttress the most draconian attack on welfare in a generation or join with wider civic Scotland in calling for a better way."
Link

Huh, if Britain is deep in the shit and has systemic economic problems comparable to Japan and America, I guess I have little else to do but sit tight and wait for the whole rotting edifice of UK PLC to crumble away (or get demolished) in the next few decades or so.
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil

'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid

'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Starglider »

How about we abolish all union dues, that will put some 'spending power' back in the hands of 'working people'.
User avatar
bobalot
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1733
Joined: 2008-05-21 06:42am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by bobalot »

Starglider wrote:How about we abolish all union dues, that will put some 'spending power' back in the hands of 'working people'.
Union Fees are voluntary, therefore it's one of the things that 'working people' chose to spend their money on.

Thanks for the pointless contribution to this thread.
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi

"Problem is, while the Germans have had many mea culpas and quite painfully dealt with their history, the South is still hellbent on painting themselves as the real victims. It gives them a special place in the history of assholes" - Covenant

"Over three million died fighting for the emperor, but when the war was over he pretended it was not his responsibility. What kind of man does that?'' - Saburo Sakai

Join SDN on Discord
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Broomstick »

bobalot wrote:
Starglider wrote:How about we abolish all union dues, that will put some 'spending power' back in the hands of 'working people'.
Union Fees are voluntary, therefore it's one of the things that 'working people' chose to spend their money on.
Since when? If you work in a union shop in the US then union dues can be a condition of employment. Are you telling me that in the UK that ALL union dues are completely and truly voluntary... or did I miss some sarcasm?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
bobalot
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1733
Joined: 2008-05-21 06:42am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by bobalot »

Broomstick wrote:
bobalot wrote:
Starglider wrote:How about we abolish all union dues, that will put some 'spending power' back in the hands of 'working people'.
Union Fees are voluntary, therefore it's one of the things that 'working people' chose to spend their money on.
Since when? If you work in a union shop in the US then union dues can be a condition of employment. Are you telling me that in the UK that ALL union dues are completely and truly voluntary... or did I miss some sarcasm?
Union Shops are illegal in the UK under section 137(1)(a) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52).

Therefore all union members are voluntary.
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi

"Problem is, while the Germans have had many mea culpas and quite painfully dealt with their history, the South is still hellbent on painting themselves as the real victims. It gives them a special place in the history of assholes" - Covenant

"Over three million died fighting for the emperor, but when the war was over he pretended it was not his responsibility. What kind of man does that?'' - Saburo Sakai

Join SDN on Discord
Kanastrous
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6464
Joined: 2007-09-14 11:46pm
Location: SoCal

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Kanastrous »

Although I assume that paying dues if you want to remain a union member is *not* voluntary.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
User avatar
TC27
Youngling
Posts: 125
Joined: 2010-03-24 04:56pm
Location: Kent, United Kingdom

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by TC27 »

Im sorry I am a liberal progressive leaning individual but all this guff coming from the Unions and the political left is just crap.

The stark truth is that if the goverment deviates from its plan to slow down (not cut in general terms) its spending by more than the smallest fraction we will lose our AAA bond status and our current borrowing needs become un-affordable and there will be even harsher cuts perhaps even forced by the IMF.
User avatar
bobalot
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1733
Joined: 2008-05-21 06:42am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by bobalot »

Kanastrous wrote:Although I assume that paying dues if you want to remain a union member is *not* voluntary.
Like any other organisation that has membership fees. Your point being?
TC27 wrote:The stark truth is that if the goverment deviates from its plan to slow down (not cut in general terms) its spending by more than the smallest fraction we will lose our AAA bond status and our current borrowing needs become un-affordable and there will be even harsher cuts perhaps even forced by the IMF.
Can you actually provide proof of that? You do realise what peoples objections are? Cutting the deficit sharply too fast and at the wrong time can actually lead to higher deficits.
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi

"Problem is, while the Germans have had many mea culpas and quite painfully dealt with their history, the South is still hellbent on painting themselves as the real victims. It gives them a special place in the history of assholes" - Covenant

"Over three million died fighting for the emperor, but when the war was over he pretended it was not his responsibility. What kind of man does that?'' - Saburo Sakai

Join SDN on Discord
User avatar
TC27
Youngling
Posts: 125
Joined: 2010-03-24 04:56pm
Location: Kent, United Kingdom

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by TC27 »

bobalot wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:Although I assume that paying dues if you want to remain a union member is *not* voluntary.
Like any other organisation that has membership fees. Your point being?
TC27 wrote:The stark truth is that if the goverment deviates from its plan to slow down (not cut in general terms) its spending by more than the smallest fraction we will lose our AAA bond status and our current borrowing needs become un-affordable and there will be even harsher cuts perhaps even forced by the IMF.
Can you actually provide proof of that? You do realise what peoples objections are? Cutting the deficit sharply too fast and at the wrong time can actually lead to higher deficits.

Moodys:

"The stable outlook on the UK's AAA rating is largely driven by the Government's commitment to stabilise and eventually reverse the deterioration in its financial strength."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... ating.html
User avatar
J
Kaye Elle Emenopey
Posts: 5836
Joined: 2002-12-14 02:23pm

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by J »

bobalot wrote:
TC27 wrote:The stark truth is that if the goverment deviates from its plan to slow down (not cut in general terms) its spending by more than the smallest fraction we will lose our AAA bond status and our current borrowing needs become un-affordable and there will be even harsher cuts perhaps even forced by the IMF.
Can you actually provide proof of that? You do realise what peoples objections are? Cutting the deficit sharply too fast and at the wrong time can actually lead to higher deficits.
IFA Online link
Austerity measures help UK keep AAA rating-Moody's
Author: Rahul Odedra
IFAonline| 20 Sep 2010 | 14:25

The UK has maintained its AAA credit rating largely thanks to the austerity measures of the coalition government, although it remains vulnerable over the long term.

In its latest annual credit report on the UK, Moody's points out the work being done to tackle the nation's balance sheet means the rating is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.

However, the agency also warns the rating is not certain over the long term, with moderate growth and minimal disruption from the restructuring of the banking sector needed to maintain it.

It is also predicated on a primary budget balance that is in surplus by around 2014.


The agency says: "Moody's envisages a number of scenarios under which the UK's AAA rating could potentially come under pressure.

"For instance, a combination of significantly slower economic growth - perhaps due to persistent private sector deleveraging and very weak growth in Europe - and reduced political commitment to fiscal consolidation could prevent a stabilisation in debt ratios.

"A sharp rise in bond yields, possibly associated with an inflation shock or deterioration in market confidence, could also cause a worsening in debt affordability.

"Alternatively, renewed problems in the banking sector could force a resumption of official support programmes and indirectly cause larger government budget deficits, thereby exerting negative pressure on the AAA rating."


Moody's has assigned the AAA rating to the UK government's debt since 1978.
Note the number of conditions required for the UK to retain its AAA rating and the potential ways in which it could unravel. Filling in a roughly £150 billion yearly deficit in 4 years, good luck on that. Hoping for moderate growth in the UK and EU economies, again, good luck there. Putting a stop to debt deleveraging and stabilizing the banking sector, yeah, sure. I refer the readers once again to this chart:
Image
The UK has the largest household and private sector debt load by a mile and it's somehow not going to default or deleverage. The UK banks hold over £100 billion in Greek, Spanish and Portuguese bonds, all of which are at an elevated risk of downgrade or default, this puts them at a high risk of going insolvent and requiring a government bailout themselves.

Put it all together and it's not a pretty picture. Every last one of the conditions laid out by Moody's for the UK to retain its AAA rating stands a high risk of being violated.
This post is a 100% natural organic product.
The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects


I'm not sure why people choose 'To Love is to Bury' as their wedding song...It's about a murder-suicide
- Margo Timmins


When it becomes serious, you have to lie
- Jean-Claude Juncker
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7553
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Zaune »

I have an alternative suggestion for reducing the UK's welfare budget.

Putting the minimum wage up to the point where it offers an appreciable improvement in one's lifestyle.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
xt828
Padawan Learner
Posts: 261
Joined: 2010-03-23 03:40am

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by xt828 »

What is the minimum wage over there? Is it enough to reasonably live on?
User avatar
Chaotic Neutral
Jedi Knight
Posts: 576
Joined: 2010-09-09 11:43pm
Location: California

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Chaotic Neutral »

Zaune wrote:I have an alternative suggestion for reducing the UK's welfare budget.

Putting the minimum wage up to the point where it offers an appreciable improvement in one's lifestyle.
How does increasing the cost of employment help those without jobs?
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Broomstick »

For shame - can't speak for the UK system but you're in California. In the US, at least, many who are on government benefits actually do have jobs - they just don't earn enough to survive and therefore are qualified to receive benefits. Increasing their wages could be enough to get that set of people off government benefits.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7553
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Zaune »

xt828 wrote:What is the minimum wage over there? Is it enough to reasonably live on?
If you're working a standard 40-hour week it just barely covers all the essentials and an occasional small, sanity-preserving luxury with careful saving.
Unfortunately, so does the money to which the unemployed are entitled, which is only about £30 a week less when one factors in Housing Benefit. Unless you're fortunate enough to live within walking distance of your place of work, travel expenses can wipe out half of that easily. We also have something called Working Tax Credit, which currently amounts to a government subsidy for companies that can't or won't pay their staff a reasonable wage, but it's only available if you're over 25 unless you're disabled. It also requires a small mountain of forms to be filled in, by applicants who probably aren't very well-educated.
Oh, and nearly all minimum-wage jobs are arranged through temping agencies, which means you don't know from one day to the next if you have a job in the morning.

The practical upshot of all this is that most of the unskilled manual work in this country ends up being done by first-generation immigrants from the newer EU members, who have nothing to lose because they're not even entitled to be deported if life blows up in their face, whilst British people who could do them stay on the dole because they're more likely to get behind with the rent if they're in full-time employment.
And I cannot emphasise enough that unemployment benefit cannot be cut any further. It is as low as it can possibly go without forcing those in receipt of it to steal so they won't starve.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Jade Falcon
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1705
Joined: 2004-07-27 06:22pm
Location: Jade Falcon HQ, Ayr, Scotland, UK
Contact:

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Jade Falcon »

xt828 wrote:What is the minimum wage over there? Is it enough to reasonably live on?
It's £5.80 an hour.
Don't Move you're surrounded by Armed Bastards - Gene Hunt's attempt at Diplomacy

I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own - Number 6

The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
Teebs
Jedi Master
Posts: 1090
Joined: 2006-11-18 10:55am
Location: Europe

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Teebs »

xt828 wrote:What is the minimum wage over there? Is it enough to reasonably live on?
Without children, yes (I base this on being able to live *comfortably* in London on less than minimum wage). With children not so much.

Edit: Obviously comfortably is a debatable term and some of the things I happily put up with might not be acceptable to older people.
User avatar
TC27
Youngling
Posts: 125
Joined: 2010-03-24 04:56pm
Location: Kent, United Kingdom

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by TC27 »

The IMF is now endorsing the goverments position

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE68Q4A320100927
LONDON (Reuters) - The International Monetary Fund threw its weight Monday behind the government's plans to squeeze public spending in order to cut a record budget deficit to almost nothing in five years.

In its annual health check on the UK economy, the IMF said things were on the mend even though the coalition's fiscal tightening plan would knock growth in the short term and that a double-dip recession could not be completely ruled out.

"The plan greatly reduces the risk of a costly loss of confidence in public finances and supports a balanced recovery," the IMF report, known as an Article IV consultation, said.

"Fiscal tightening will dampen short-term growth but not stop it as other sectors of the economy emerge as drivers of recovery, supported by continued monetary stimulus."

Conservative Chancellor George Osborne could not hide his glee at gaining the endorsement before his October 20 spending review, which is expected to cut the budgets of most government departments by 25 percent or more and has already been denounced as unfair by unions and opposition politicians.

"People are now beginning to realise this argument about the deficit is being decisively won by the coalition government," a smiling Osborne told BBC News in one of a series of media appearances conducted shortly after the report was released.

Faced with a budget deficit of 11 percent of GDP when he took office in May after 14 years of Labour rule, Osborne has planned the harshest budget in a generation, with big spending cuts and tax rises to take effect from next year.

While financial markets have reacted favourably, the plans remain controversial and some economists have warned that the budget risks throwing Britain back into the recession from which it only emerged at the end of last year.

Saturday, the opposition Labour Party elected a new leader, Ed Miliband, who had campaigned on a platform of slower deficit reduction than that even pencilled in by former Labour finance minister Alistair Darling.

The IMF said its central view was the UK economy would enjoy moderate growth and that inflation would fall gradually, and that there were balanced upside and downside risks to that scenario.

It said that it was possible that low interest rates, past sterling depreciation and the global recovery could push the British economy into faster growth and stronger inflationary pressure.

"However, downside risks are also sizeable, given the continued fragility of confidence, still-strained balance sheets among households and banks, signs of renewed housing market weakness, and the possibility that headwinds from fiscal consolidation could turn out to be more powerful than expected," it said.
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

With a fairly strong caveat in the last sentence. It will take a while for all that to trickle down, to be certain. Just look at Ireland's state. Cut and cut and cut, and things got worse instead.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
J
Kaye Elle Emenopey
Posts: 5836
Joined: 2002-12-14 02:23pm

Re: George Osborne Criticised Over Welfare Cuts.

Post by J »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:With a fairly strong caveat in the last sentence. It will take a while for all that to trickle down, to be certain. Just look at Ireland's state. Cut and cut and cut, and things got worse instead.
Ireland crossed the point of no return. A country can't run a 13:1 debt to GDP ratio and expect to remain solvent.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/30308959?slide=21

The UK still has a chance of escaping the debt trap if it takes the correct actions and gets a bit of luck on its side. They can still take care of their budget and find a way to deleverage/default their financial, business, and private debts before everything implodes.
This post is a 100% natural organic product.
The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects


I'm not sure why people choose 'To Love is to Bury' as their wedding song...It's about a murder-suicide
- Margo Timmins


When it becomes serious, you have to lie
- Jean-Claude Juncker
Post Reply