I, for one, think this looks promising. Psychology: obsoleting philosophy with facts since the late 1800's.The New York Times wrote:Sizing Up Consciousness by Its Bits
One day in 2007, Dr. Giulio Tononi lay on a hospital stretcher as an anesthesiologist prepared him for surgery. For Dr. Tononi, it was a moment of intellectual exhilaration. He is a distinguished chair in consciousness science at the University of Wisconsin, and for much of his life he has been developing a theory of consciousness. Lying in the hospital, Dr. Tononi finally had a chance to become his own experiment.
The anesthesiologist was preparing to give Dr. Tononi one drug to render him unconscious, and another one to block muscle movements. Dr. Tononi suggested the anesthesiologist first tie a band around his arm to keep out the muscle-blocking drug. The anesthesiologist could then ask Dr. Tononi to lift his finger from time to time, so they could mark the moment he lost awareness.
The anesthesiologist did not share Dr. Tononi’s excitement. “He could not have been less interested,” Dr. Tononi recalled. “He just said, ‘Yes, yes, yes,’ and put me to sleep. He was thinking, ‘This guy must be out of his mind.’ ”
Dr. Tononi was not offended. Consciousness has long been the province of philosophers, and most doctors steer clear of their abstract speculations. After all, debating the finer points of what it is like to be a brain floating in a vat does not tell you how much anesthetic to give a patient.
But Dr. Tononi’s theory is, potentially, very different. He and his colleagues are translating the poetry of our conscious experiences into the precise language of mathematics. To do so, they are adapting information theory, a branch of science originally applied to computers and telecommunications. If Dr. Tononi is right, he and his colleagues may be able to build a “consciousness meter” that doctors can use to measure consciousness as easily as they measure blood pressure and body temperature. Perhaps then his anesthesiologist will become interested.
“I love his ideas,” said Christof Koch, an expert on consciousness at Caltech. “It’s the only really promising fundamental theory of consciousness.”
Dr. Tononi’s obsession with consciousness started in his teens. He was initially interested in ethics, but he decided that questions of personal responsibility depended on our consciousness of our own actions. So he would have to figure out consciousness first. “I’ve been stuck with this thing for most of my life,” he said.
Eventually he decided to study consciousness by becoming a psychiatrist. An early encounter with a patient in a vegetative state convinced Dr. Tononi that understanding consciousness was not just a matter of philosophy.
“There are very practical things involved,” Dr. Tononi said. “Are these patients feeling pain or not? You look at science, and basically science is telling you nothing.”
Dr. Tononi began developing models of the brain and became an expert on one form of altered consciousness we all experience: sleep. In 2000, he and his colleagues found that Drosophila flies go through cycles of sleeping and waking. By studying mutant flies, Dr. Tononi and other researchers have discovered genes that may be important in sleep disorders.
For Dr. Tononi, sleep is a daily reminder of how mysterious consciousness is. Each night we lose it, and each morning it comes back. In recent decades, neuroscientists have built models that describe how consciousness emerges from the brain. Some researchers have proposed that consciousness is caused by the synchronization of neurons across the brain. That harmony allows the brain to bring together different perceptions into a single conscious experience.
Dr. Tononi sees serious problems in these models. When people lose consciousness from epileptic seizures, for instance, their brain waves become more synchronized. If synchronization were the key to consciousness, you would expect the seizures to make people hyperconscious instead of unconscious, he said.
While in medical school, Dr. Tononi began to think of consciousness in a different way, as a particularly rich form of information. He took his inspiration from the American engineer Claude Shannon, who built a scientific theory of information in the mid-1900s. Mr. Shannon measured information in a signal by how much uncertainty it reduced. There is very little information in a photodiode that switches on when it detects light, because it reduces only a little uncertainty. It can distinguish between light and dark, but it cannot distinguish between different kinds of light. It cannot tell the differences between a television screen showing a Charlie Chaplin movie or an ad for potato chips. The question that the photodiode can answer, in other words, is about as simple as a question can get.
Our neurons are basically fancy photodiodes, producing electric bursts in response to incoming signals. But the conscious experiences they produce contain far more information than in a single diode. In other words, they reduce much more uncertainty. While a photodiode can be in one of two states, our brains can be in one of trillions of states. Not only can we tell the difference between a Chaplin movie and a potato chip, but our brains can go into a different state from one frame of the movie to the next.
“One out of two isn’t a lot of information, but if it’s one out of trillions, then there’s a lot,” Dr. Tononi said.
Consciousness is not simply about quantity of information, he says. Simply combining a lot of photodiodes is not enough to create human consciousness. In our brains, neurons talk to one another, merging information into a unified whole. A grid made up of a million photodiodes in a camera can take a picture, but the information in each diode is independent from all the others. You could cut the grid into two pieces and they would still take the same picture.
Consciousness, Dr. Tononi says, is nothing more than integrated information. Information theorists measure the amount of information in a computer file or a cellphone call in bits, and Dr. Tononi argues that we could, in theory, measure consciousness in bits as well. When we are wide awake, our consciousness contains more bits than when we are asleep.
For the past decade, Dr. Tononi and his colleagues have been expanding traditional information theory in order to analyze integrated information. It is possible, they have shown, to calculate how much integrated information there is in a network. Dr. Tononi has dubbed this quantity phi, and he has studied it in simple networks made up of just a few interconnected parts. How the parts of a network are wired together has a big effect on phi. If a network is made up of isolated parts, phi is low, because the parts cannot share information.
But simply linking all the parts in every possible way does not raise phi much. “It’s either all on, or all off,” Dr. Tononi said. In effect, the network becomes one giant photodiode.
Networks gain the highest phi possible if their parts are organized into separate clusters, which are then joined. “What you need are specialists who talk to each other, so they can behave as a whole,” Dr. Tononi said. He does not think it is a coincidence that the brain’s organization obeys this phi-raising principle.
Dr. Tononi argues that his Integrated Information Theory sidesteps a lot of the problems that previous models of consciousness have faced. It neatly explains, for example, why epileptic seizures cause unconsciousness. A seizure forces many neurons to turn on and off together. Their synchrony reduces the number of possible states the brain can be in, lowering its phi.
Dr. Koch considers Dr. Tononi’s theory to be still in its infancy. It is impossible, for example, to calculate phi for the human brain because its billions of neurons and trillions of connections can be arranged in so many ways. Dr. Koch and Dr. Tononi recently started a collaboration to determine phi for a much more modest nervous system, that of a worm known as Caenorhabditis elegans. Despite the fact that it has only 302 neurons in its entire body, Dr. Koch and Dr. Tononi will be able make only a rough approximation of phi, rather than a precise calculation.
“The lifetime of the universe isn’t long enough for that,” Dr. Koch said. “There are immense practical problems with the theory, but that was also true for the theory of general relativity early on.”
Dr. Tononi is also testing his theory in other ways. In a study published this year, he and his colleagues placed a small magnetic coil on the heads of volunteers. The coil delivered a pulse of magnetism lasting a tenth of a second. The burst causes neurons in a small patch of the brain to fire, and they in turn send signals to other neurons, making them fire as well.
To track these reverberations, Dr. Tononi and his colleagues recorded brain activity with a mesh of scalp electrodes. They found that the brain reverberated like a ringing bell, with neurons firing in a complex pattern across large areas of the brain for 295 milliseconds.
Then the scientists gave the subjects a sedative called midazolam and delivered another pulse. In the anesthetized brain, the reverberations produced a much simpler response in a much smaller region, lasting just 110 milliseconds. As the midazolam started to wear off, the pulses began to produce richer, longer echoes.
These are the kinds of results Dr. Tononi expected. According to his theory, a fragmented brain loses some of its integrated information and thus some of its consciousness. Dr. Tononi has gotten similar results when he has delivered pulses to sleeping people — or at least people in dream-free stages of sleep.
In this month’s issue of the journal Cognitive Neuroscience, he and his colleagues reported that dreaming brains respond more like wakeful ones. Dr. Tononi is now collaborating with Dr. Steven Laureys of the University of Liège in Belgium to test his theory on people in persistent vegetative states. Although he and his colleagues have tested only a small group of subjects, the results are so far falling in line with previous experiments.
If Dr. Tononi and his colleagues can get reliable results from such experiments, it will mean more than just support for his theory. It could also lead to a new way to measure consciousness. “That would give us a consciousness index,” Dr. Laureys said.
Traditionally, doctors have measured consciousness simply by getting responses from patients. In many cases, it comes down to questions like, “Can you hear me?” This approach fails with people who are conscious but unable to respond. In recent years scientists have been developing ways of detecting consciousness directly from the activity of the brain.
In one series of experiments, researchers put people in vegetative or minimally conscious states into fMRI scanners and asked them to think about playing tennis. In some patients, regions of the brain became active in a pattern that was a lot like that in healthy subjects.
Dr. Tononi thinks these experiments identify consciousness in some patients, but they have serious limitations. “It’s complicated to put someone in a scanner,” he said. He also notes that thinking about tennis for 30 seconds can demand a lot from people with brain injuries. “If you get a response I think it’s proof that’s someone’s there, but if you don’t get it, it’s not proof of anything,” Dr. Tononi said.
Measuring the integrated information in people’s brains could potentially be both easier and more reliable. An anesthesiologist, for example, could apply magnetic pulses to a patient’s brain every few seconds and instantly see whether it responded with the rich complexity of consciousness or the meager patterns of unconsciousness.
Other researchers view Dr. Tononi’s theory with a respectful skepticism.
“It’s the sort of proposal that I think people should be generating at this point: a simple and powerful hypothesis about the relationship between brain processing and conscious experience,” said David Chalmers, a philosopher at Australian National University. “As with most simple and powerful hypotheses, reality will probably turn out to be more complicated, but we’ll learn something from the attempt. I’d say that it doesn’t solve the problem of consciousness, but it’s a useful starting point.”
Dr. Tononi acknowledged, “The theory has to be developed a bit more before I worry about what’s the best consciousness meter you could develop.” But once he has one, he would not limit himself to humans. As long as people have puzzled over consciousness, they have wondered whether animals are conscious as well. Dr. Tononi suspects that it is not a simple yes-or-no answer. Rather, animals will prove to have different levels of consciousness, depending on their integrated information. Even C. elegans might have a little consciousness.
“Unless one has a theory of what consciousness is, one will never be able to address these difficult cases and say anything meaningful,” Dr. Tononi said.
Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
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Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
'Cause you need to read this:
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
I'll have to go tell my favorite undergraduate professor that he's obsolete. Oh, wait, it's only a rough quantitative measure that can't even be calculated for C. elegans? Eh, I'll wait a few hundred years then.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."
"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty
This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal. -Tanasinn
"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty
This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal. -Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
What is remarkable to me is that they even have a theory of consciousness that can quantify it in the first place. Generally when that happens to something it stops being the domain of philosophers. At least, that's my opinion.Anguirus wrote:I'll have to go tell my favorite undergraduate professor that he's obsolete. Oh, wait, it's only a rough quantitative measure that can't even be calculated for C. elegans? Eh, I'll wait a few hundred years then.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Suppose you understood the mathematics of integrated information, and knew precisely how to measure the bits of integrated information in a complex system, and even model the 'phi' value of such a system as a function of time.
But suppose, in addition, that you know nothing about neurology or philosophy of mind and never think about consciousness as a phenomenon. You study your integrated information theory as a mathematician.
Would you be able to predict that bits of integrated information in complex systems give rise to feelings? Would you be able to deduce, from the abstract models, that phi-value corresponds to subjective experiences?
Will we ever be able to predict the existence of subjective feelings by studying equations, the same way we are able to predict the existence of black holes by studying general relativity?
But suppose, in addition, that you know nothing about neurology or philosophy of mind and never think about consciousness as a phenomenon. You study your integrated information theory as a mathematician.
Would you be able to predict that bits of integrated information in complex systems give rise to feelings? Would you be able to deduce, from the abstract models, that phi-value corresponds to subjective experiences?
Will we ever be able to predict the existence of subjective feelings by studying equations, the same way we are able to predict the existence of black holes by studying general relativity?
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Why not? Cognitive psychologists study the brain as if it were a computer all the time, and our theories do in fact explain emotions and subjective experience. They have to. Why do you think the methods of philosophy are superior tools for explaining human experience? They've proved useless for explaining every other aspect of the natural world *, what makes the human mind particularly special in that regard?Modax wrote:Suppose you understood the mathematics of integrated information, and knew precisely how to measure the bits of integrated information in a complex system, and even model the 'phi' value of such a system as a function of time.
But suppose, in addition, that you know nothing about neurology or philosophy of mind and never think about consciousness as a phenomenon. You study your integrated information theory as a mathematician.
Would you be able to predict that bits of integrated information in complex systems give rise to feelings? Would you be able to deduce, from the abstract models, that phi-value corresponds to subjective experiences?
Will we ever be able to predict the existence of subjective feelings by studying equations, the same way we are able to predict the existence of black holes by studying general relativity?
* unless you consider science to be an aspect of philosophy, but personally I would consider the traditions very distinct in practice.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
I don't think I even have the bare minimum of expertise required to truly understand this, but it's an interesting article. I'd like to note that one of the more common metaphors I've seen for the human brain is not a little guy sitting in the cranium, but rather a group of homunculi, each handling a different facet of function. Just noting that this isn't entirely a new idea, even if the idea of a concrete theory of the brain is truly exciting.
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
What a let down. I was expecting an actual insight into consciousness. This doesn't explain anything that was mysterious previously, namely why a bunch of electrons should give rise to subjective experience. That information processing results in consciousness has been a no-brainer for anybody sticking to methodological naturalism for quite a long time. The only alternative was that it was something about the specific materials involved, which made far less sense.
It's neat that they might be able to compare states of high-consciousness to low-consciousness (I'm hesitant to call it 'unconscious' since there is no reason to believe it's a binary on/off state, at best you can conclude that memory isn't working below a threshold of connectivity) and measure such, but it's not a big deal in terms of philosophy of mind.
It explains the evolutionary purpose and biological function of emotions (plus it's impact on behavior), it doesn't explain why they "feel" the way they do to anybody, and they DEFINITELY don't explain why subjective experience exists at all. Nothing we have leads us to believe that it should exist, except that we know we have it.
It's neat that they might be able to compare states of high-consciousness to low-consciousness (I'm hesitant to call it 'unconscious' since there is no reason to believe it's a binary on/off state, at best you can conclude that memory isn't working below a threshold of connectivity) and measure such, but it's not a big deal in terms of philosophy of mind.
Lol, what?and our theories do in fact explain emotions and subjective experience.
It explains the evolutionary purpose and biological function of emotions (plus it's impact on behavior), it doesn't explain why they "feel" the way they do to anybody, and they DEFINITELY don't explain why subjective experience exists at all. Nothing we have leads us to believe that it should exist, except that we know we have it.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
What do you mean? That's like asking why the color blue looks blue and not red, it just does, it could have been any number if colors that don't exist, but blue is blue. Science already tells us the reason is because of the wavelength, but complaining that science doesn't tell us why blue doesn't look like a bunch of colors that don't exist is pointless, blue is just blue, it's the way your brain sees the color. Just like consciousness is how your brain functions.adam_grif wrote: Lol, what?
It explains the evolutionary purpose and biological function of emotions (plus it's impact on behavior), it doesn't explain why they "feel" the way they do to anybody, and they DEFINITELY don't explain why subjective experience exists at all. Nothing we have leads us to believe that it should exist, except that we know we have it.
(I hope my metaphor didn't suck.)
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Short answer: self reference. Long answer (and I do mean long!): read Godel, Escher, Bach or I am a Strange Loop and get back to me.Adam_Grif wrote:What a let down. I was expecting an actual insight into consciousness. This doesn't explain anything that was mysterious previously, namely why a bunch of electrons should give rise to subjective experience. That information processing results in consciousness has been a no-brainer for anybody sticking to methodological naturalism for quite a long time. The only alternative was that it was something about the specific materials involved, which made far less sense.
Now, if you want to know how consciousness actually works, rather than complaining that this article isn't philosophical wild mass guessing on how it might work... then this is the thread for you. Give you a hint: I picked this up from a link in a certain psych blog I read. This was intended to be a psychology related thread. That people for some reason like to complain about philosophy of mind bullshit * is why I said it is obsolete-- its totally pointless when you can scientifically study said subject instead, and I do not want this thread to get bogged down by such idiocy.
* speaking in general, as I haven't seen many such discussions like this on SDN; so far I'm less then impressed with this thread.
What do they feel like to you? Trick (or should I say trap?) question. The whole point of "subjective" feelings is that they are inextricably linked to the subject who experiences them. To adapt a thought experiment from Dan Dennet: if they could make a machine that let me "feel" what you feel. I hook up to you, see what sensations you experience when I call you a worthless pool of moron drool, and tell everyone how it feels. You report that the sensation is indignation, and I report that its anger. Now the operator flips a switch and suddenly I am reporting indignation as well. Which is the correct setting: the first, or the second?Lol, what?
It explains the evolutionary purpose and biological function of emotions (plus it's impact on behavior), it doesn't explain why they "feel" the way they do to anybody, and they DEFINITELY don't explain why subjective experience exists at all. Nothing we have leads us to believe that it should exist, except that we know we have it.
Of course, in reality being that we're both humans this translation should happen anyway, since many of those "feelings" are actually caused by physiological changes like heart rate, blood pressure, neurotransmitters, and so on. There is only one way to experience them, and thats the way you do experience them. There is no such thing as quala. The question is based on a false assumption: there is nothing here that needs to be explained. Parsimony doesn't require it. Just like it doesn't require solipsism, which your line of questioning leads to (in the form of philosophical zombies. That should give you a big hint why I'm not impressed with philosophical inquiries into the mind over scientific ones).
As for subjective experiences, psychology studies them insofar as it tries to explain why people have different preferences. Thats actually something worth understanding, as it can actually be observed in a meaningful way. Your questions on the other hand are nothing but a linguistic illusion. Like the article said, an anesthesiologist doesn't care what it feels like to be a brain in a vat, he needs to know how much anesthesia will knock you out without killing you. A psychologist doesn't need to know what these experiences "feel" like because he's a functioning human being too, so he already knows. He's going to be far more interested in what mechanism lies underneath, so he can make a machine that can tell the difference between a persistent vegetative state and locked in syndrome.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Whether my experience with the same stimuli differs from that of others is not important here, but rather that I experience anything at all.The whole point of "subjective" feelings is that they are inextricably linked to the subject who experiences them. To adapt a thought experiment from Dan Dennet: if they could make a machine that let me "feel" what you feel. I hook up to you, see what sensations you experience when I call you a worthless pool of moron drool, and tell everyone how it feels. You report that the sensation is indignation, and I report that its anger. Now the operator flips a switch and suddenly I am reporting indignation as well. Which is the correct setting: the first, or the second?
Once again, missing the point. Why do I experience them? And before you start, I'm not asking you why sensory inputs are being processed by my brain, I'm asking you why there is a perception, a me. Why is sentience?Of course, in reality being that we're both humans this translation should happen anyway, since many of those "feelings" are actually caused by physiological changes like heart rate, blood pressure, neurotransmitters, and so on. There is only one way to experience them, and thats the way you do experience them.
So your response is that I simply don't have subjective experience? I do not and have never believed in the existence or possibility of P-zeds, but saying "brains cause subjective experience" isn't an explanation. It's a causal attribution. Like saying "magnets can lift certain things". Yes, they certainly can, but why? Is consciousness and subjectivity just a property of electricity? Can it arise from mechanical information processors? If it is caused by information processing and not electricity, does that mean that information is something that exists in a non-abstract sense?There is no such thing as quala. The question is based on a false assumption: there is nothing here that needs to be explained. Parsimony doesn't require it. Just like it doesn't require solipsism, which your line of questioning leads to (in the form of philosophical zombies.
etc etc.
Yes yes I get it, you're one of the endless horde of science elitists who look down on philosophers because things are only valuable to you if they have a practical application.That should give you a big hint why I'm not impressed with philosophical inquiries into the mind over scientific ones).
That this information is not required for the field of psychology to be useful does not imply that there is nothing there to be learned, or that we shouldn't try. I'm not disputing that what this man has contributed is useful, and never have. Just that it's very disappointing because it doesn't lead to a better understanding of it, it just allows us to (possibly) measure it.Your questions on the other hand are nothing but a linguistic illusion. Like the article said, an anesthesiologist doesn't care what it feels like to be a brain in a vat, he needs to know how much anesthesia will knock you out without killing you. A psychologist doesn't need to know what these experiences "feel" like because he's a functioning human being too, so he already knows.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
As a psych undergraduate I'll just add some points:
Neurological Correlates of Consciousness: We attribute correlation to the occurrence of consciousness itself,as there are brain regions that are associated with the brain.While there are impacts to the functioning of the individual when the brain is traumatise or lesioned in some manner,as the cases of Clive Wearing and Henry Gustave Molaison have proven without doubt, they are called correlates for a reason.
To associate the brain with causation of consciousness is not scientific because there is no confirmation to suggest that. Science deals with giving hypotheses and testing them. This is a hypothesis that yes,the brain causes consciousness which evidence supports. This discovery if utilised gives us a tool to measure it and investigate consciousness because the problem with consciousness is that:
1)It is not replicable within a laboratory as of yet.Maybe never will be.
2)It is subjective as a phenomenon.Everyone has it but we can only see the behaviour of a person,not their intangible consciousness.
3)Subjective perspective means a different reaction to the same situation.A case would be the Pro-lifer and the Pro-choicer watching an abortion occur. Obviously both would have different reactions to the same situation,hence a different subjective experience and resulting neural activity.
What this does do is to allow for an important tool to be developed in assessing and measuring the intangible mind/consciousness rather than having to observe behaviour all the time and expand modes of inquiry.
Neurological Correlates of Consciousness: We attribute correlation to the occurrence of consciousness itself,as there are brain regions that are associated with the brain.While there are impacts to the functioning of the individual when the brain is traumatise or lesioned in some manner,as the cases of Clive Wearing and Henry Gustave Molaison have proven without doubt, they are called correlates for a reason.
To associate the brain with causation of consciousness is not scientific because there is no confirmation to suggest that. Science deals with giving hypotheses and testing them. This is a hypothesis that yes,the brain causes consciousness which evidence supports. This discovery if utilised gives us a tool to measure it and investigate consciousness because the problem with consciousness is that:
1)It is not replicable within a laboratory as of yet.Maybe never will be.
2)It is subjective as a phenomenon.Everyone has it but we can only see the behaviour of a person,not their intangible consciousness.
3)Subjective perspective means a different reaction to the same situation.A case would be the Pro-lifer and the Pro-choicer watching an abortion occur. Obviously both would have different reactions to the same situation,hence a different subjective experience and resulting neural activity.
What this does do is to allow for an important tool to be developed in assessing and measuring the intangible mind/consciousness rather than having to observe behaviour all the time and expand modes of inquiry.
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
The information in your brain is sentience!adam_grif wrote:Once again, missing the point. Why do I experience them? And before you start, I'm not asking you why sensory inputs are being processed by my brain, I'm asking you why there is a perception, a me. Why is sentience?
Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Why is it that somes clusters of information have sentience and others don't? Could the information in my computer's RAM be sentient?
Invoking self reference and strange loops doesn't suffice. Suppose I have am able to run a virtual machine version of my operating system in my operating system, and run a program in the VM that feeds back into the virtualization software. Is the RAM sentient now? Sounds really fishy to me.
For the record I don't think the 'methods of philosophy' are in any way superior to natural science here. At the moment, I suspect that an really satisfying explanation for how/why subjective feelings arise out of certain agglomerations of matter and information (but not others) is really beyond human capability. Sentience/subjectivity just feels deeply weird to me, with a level of weirdness that far transcends that reached by QM or relativity or physical cosmology. Don't get me wrong, I'm not worshipping my ignorance of sentience/subjectivity, I would be thrilled if science could someday provide the satisyfing kind of explanation I feel is missing.
Its like if you had no idea how fire works, so you invent a thermometer, and measure the temperature of the fire. Well, great. Saying that current science explains consciousness feels to me like someone saying that they now 'understand fire' because they have figured out what temperature woods burns at. It's only when we reach the same level of abstract, systematic understanding we have in chemistry -- 'fire' refers to how heat can catalyze a self-sustaining exothermic reaction in a substance with oxygen, producing excess heat, light, and oxides -- that we 'understand sentience/subjectivity.' Chemistry is a layer of abstraction built on top of physics which describes complex phenomena, because of it fire is not mysterious. It would be awesome to have something similar -- 'Qualia Chemistry' -- but I'll believe when I see it.
[/rant]
Invoking self reference and strange loops doesn't suffice. Suppose I have am able to run a virtual machine version of my operating system in my operating system, and run a program in the VM that feeds back into the virtualization software. Is the RAM sentient now? Sounds really fishy to me.
For the record I don't think the 'methods of philosophy' are in any way superior to natural science here. At the moment, I suspect that an really satisfying explanation for how/why subjective feelings arise out of certain agglomerations of matter and information (but not others) is really beyond human capability. Sentience/subjectivity just feels deeply weird to me, with a level of weirdness that far transcends that reached by QM or relativity or physical cosmology. Don't get me wrong, I'm not worshipping my ignorance of sentience/subjectivity, I would be thrilled if science could someday provide the satisyfing kind of explanation I feel is missing.
Its like if you had no idea how fire works, so you invent a thermometer, and measure the temperature of the fire. Well, great. Saying that current science explains consciousness feels to me like someone saying that they now 'understand fire' because they have figured out what temperature woods burns at. It's only when we reach the same level of abstract, systematic understanding we have in chemistry -- 'fire' refers to how heat can catalyze a self-sustaining exothermic reaction in a substance with oxygen, producing excess heat, light, and oxides -- that we 'understand sentience/subjectivity.' Chemistry is a layer of abstraction built on top of physics which describes complex phenomena, because of it fire is not mysterious. It would be awesome to have something similar -- 'Qualia Chemistry' -- but I'll believe when I see it.
[/rant]
Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Formless, I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this thread. Is it a neat scientific result? Yes. Is it yet another body blow to the existence of a non-material mind in humans? Yes, but as you well know that was killed deader than dead as far back as Phineas Gage. Does it represent a better objective measure of alertness? Sure.
Does it mean philosophy of mind is obsolete? God no. Dr. Toroni certainly wouldn't tell you that. Vague quantitative measurements have a funny habit of not destroying people's interest in whole fields of basic inquiry. Now, productive philosophy is informed by scientific results. I'd agree with you that when philosophers dismiss science entirely they are on the fast track to irrelevance. But the one philosopher of mind I know slavishly keeps up with neuroscience literature.
Does it mean philosophy of mind is obsolete? God no. Dr. Toroni certainly wouldn't tell you that. Vague quantitative measurements have a funny habit of not destroying people's interest in whole fields of basic inquiry. Now, productive philosophy is informed by scientific results. I'd agree with you that when philosophers dismiss science entirely they are on the fast track to irrelevance. But the one philosopher of mind I know slavishly keeps up with neuroscience literature.
Let me know when the Internet produces an original thought. You can't just pile information together and expect it to have subjective experience.The information in your brain is sentience!
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal. -Tanasinn
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
adam_grif wrote:Whether my experience with the same stimuli differs from that of others is not important here, but rather that I experience anything at all.
If you have to repeat yourself, you are using the quote function wrong. Just post your problems with my argument once, rather than adding needless verbiage through fucking quote spaghetti.adam_grif wrote:Once again, missing the point. Why do I experience them? And before you start, I'm not asking you why sensory inputs are being processed by my brain, I'm asking you why there is a perception, a me. Why is sentience?
Why is this such a problem? You just do. You wouldn't be asking the question if you didn't, that's why any attempt to ask "why" about the universe is meaningless. The universe doesn't give a shit, its just happy making stars and galaxies and planets that don't have life as it is making ones that do. If you mean "how can sentience arise" I already answered that: self reference. Just to name one of the more obvious possibilities. The thing is, there are so many non-exclusive ways it could arise that the question isn't really worth asking anymore. What I want to know is how does it actually work?
No, I'm saying that the way you seem to define subjective experience makes it an untestable, unfalsifiable, unobservable quality and therefor not necessary for a scientific theory of mind according to parsimony. Hence why, as I and Manthor have pointed out, psychologists don't use that definition of subjective experience. We use one that can be observed and studied; that is "why do people have different preferences and appear to react to the same stimuli differently?"So your response is that I simply don't have subjective experience?
Actually, 1) that's the definition of pragmatism 2) yes, I am in fact a pragmatist 3) pragmatism IS part of philosophy, moron drool. I just find that much of philosophy (particularly in areas like philosophy of mind) as a tradition is filled with junk that no one can take seriously anymore in light of what science has discovered since the questions were first asked.Yes yes I get it, you're one of the endless horde of science elitists who look down on philosophers because things are only valuable to you if they have a practical application.
Strictly speaking I would consider scientists to be philosophers, but in practice most people don't so the distinction is useful for the purposes of discussion.
Take another example: I find the whole "free will vs determinism" debate to be dated. While "free will" may be a horribly vague concept IMO (what are we free from? What are we free to do? Are we getting something for free? Isn't "willpower" a deterministic phenomenon in the first place?), the way philosophers classically understood determinism (as exemplified by Laplace's Demon) is incompatible with modern theories of physics (irreversibility in thermodynamics, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, and of course the apparent randomness of waveform collapse in quantum physics). Yet does anyone take this into account when discussing the subject? I've yet to see it.
But it does lead to a better understanding of it, that's part of the point of the article. His model (hopefully) better explains why epileptic seizures send you unconscious than the previous one. That is an improvement in understanding.That this information is not required for the field of psychology to be useful does not imply that there is nothing there to be learned, or that we shouldn't try. I'm not disputing that what this man has contributed is useful, and never have. Just that it's very disappointing because it doesn't lead to a better understanding of it, it just allows us to (possibly) measure it.
Why couldn't it?Modax wrote:Why is it that somes clusters of information have sentience and others don't? Could the information in my computer's RAM be sentient?
Appeal to intuition.Invoking self reference and strange loops doesn't suffice. Suppose I have am able to run a virtual machine version of my operating system in my operating system, and run a program in the VM that feeds back into the virtualization software. Is the RAM sentient now? Sounds really fishy to me.
As Carl Sagan put it "It doesn't hurt the romance of a sunset to understand the workings of nuclear fusion."Its like if you had no idea how fire works, so you invent a thermometer, and measure the temperature of the fire. Well, great. Saying that current science explains consciousness feels to me like someone saying that they now 'understand fire' because they have figured out what temperature woods burns at. It's only when we reach the same level of abstract, systematic understanding we have in chemistry -- 'fire' refers to how heat can catalyze a self-sustaining exothermic reaction in a substance with oxygen, producing excess heat, light, and oxides -- that we 'understand sentience/subjectivity.' Chemistry is a layer of abstraction built on top of physics which describes complex phenomena, because of it fire is not mysterious. It would be awesome to have something similar -- 'Qualia Chemistry' -- but I'll believe when I see it.
I wanted to bring a news item relating to psychology and neuroscience to people's attention. Nothing more, nothing less. As for the line about psychology's superiority to philosophy, that was mainly intended to be a joke at the expense of philosophy as a tradition (and perhaps to a lesser extent as a method). As a human endeavor (the striving to articulate questions about the world and seek answers to them) I have no problems with it.Anguirus wrote:Formless, I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this thread.
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Are you claiming that there is something special about organic matter that gives rise to sentience?Invoking self reference and strange loops doesn't suffice. Suppose I have am able to run a virtual machine version of my operating system in my operating system, and run a program in the VM that feeds back into the virtualization software. Is the RAM sentient now? Sounds really fishy to me.
Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Hell no. Atoms are atoms are atoms, organic matter--as we all should know--is made of some of the most common elements in the universe.Samuel wrote:Are you claiming that there is something special about organic matter that gives rise to sentience?
Sentience is the wrong word for this discussion; sentience is about sensing things, i.e extracting meaningful information about the environment. So face recognition software on a digital camera is sentient because it does exactly this. I don't think this poses a philosophical problem.
Most people's reasons for thinking artificial intelligences will have subjective experience like we do is based on anthropomorphic thinking; someone might reason that if an AI accomplishes human cognitive tasks it must "feel the same way" while peforming these tasks, but this doesn't follow logically if the AI happens to be using very different algorithms to achieve the humanlike intelligence.
Now because of materialism, I think it *does* follow logically that an AI who is logically and informationally identical to a human brain in every way, like an 'upload', would have the same experiences as a mind running on protein-ware.
So intelligence on its own doesn't seem to imply subjective experience, whereas having a human mind *does* imply experience regardless of what the mind runs on. Or else you basically have solipsism.
Since I believe at least some animal species obviously have subjective experience, the question is 'is a mind required for subjective exprience? and if so, what constitutes a mind?'
I have absolutely no clue how to answer either part of the question.
And none of this explains why such a thing as subjective exprience exists at all, and I really don't see how the laws of physics can actually predict or imply the existence of experience.
Strongly Agree.Formless wrote:As Carl Sagan put it "It doesn't hurt the romance of a sunset to understand the workings of nuclear fusion."
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
So you are saying that subjective experience is just a method of processing information then? Nothing unexplainable their.
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Assuming for a moment that you use the definition of subjective experience that I outlined above, of course they do. No two people have the same set of experiences, which causes developmental differences in people while they are still children. Someone who was born with a silver spoon in their mouth will have very different upbringing from a black kid living in the ghetto for example. Their lives will take different trajectories which will put them into very different situations, which will in turn cause them to chose to adopt different outlooks on life and react differently to similar situations based on that history.Modax wrote:And none of this explains why such a thing as subjective exprience exists at all, and I really don't see how the laws of physics can actually predict or imply the existence of experience.
On top of that, there are genetic differences that will cause some amount of difference between people's brains. I do not want to exaggerate the effect this will have, but it is there.
Lastly of course, there is sheer randomness to take into account. Some people win the lottery, some people get into freak accidents. On a purely neurological level, people's brains are almost certainly grown with some amount of tolerance for deviations from the standard blueprint found in our genes, tolerance for a certain amount of noise, and of course neuroplasticity for the inevitable (if hopefully minor) damage that will accumulate over time with any bodily organ. In the same way, though you don't realize it your arms and legs aren't identical-- they can be as much as an inch different in length before people will realize it. Growing a body isn't a precise art.
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
No, the question was not why do subjective experiences differ, the question was why do we have those experiences at all.
Why and how is there a me to be asking you this question? This research doesn't even begin to address that, it's just a load meter for the brain.
Why and how is there a me to be asking you this question? This research doesn't even begin to address that, it's just a load meter for the brain.
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Hence why I said "if you use the definition of 'subjective experience' psychologists use". The one you guys seem to be using turns "subjectivity" into fucking magic.Vendetta wrote:No, the question was not why do subjective experiences differ, the question was why do we have those experiences at all.
Why and how is there a me to be asking you this question? This research doesn't even begin to address that, it's just a load meter for the brain.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
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“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Formless wrote:Hence why I said "if you use the definition of 'subjective experience' psychologists use". The one you guys seem to be using turns "subjectivity" into fucking magic.Vendetta wrote:No, the question was not why do subjective experiences differ, the question was why do we have those experiences at all.
Why and how is there a me to be asking you this question? This research doesn't even begin to address that, it's just a load meter for the brain.
Not being a psychologist, I would request edification on what definition they use for subjectivity.
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
I mean, really, is that so hard? Its in this thread. Is it the fact that I phrased it in the form of a question that threw you off?Formless wrote:We use one that can be observed and studied; that is "why do people have different preferences and appear to react to the same stimuli differently?"
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Yes, I'm not used to the Jeopardy version of definition giving.Formless wrote:I mean, really, is that so hard? Its in this thread. Is it the fact that I phrased it in the form of a question that threw you off?Formless wrote:We use one that can be observed and studied; that is "why do people have different preferences and appear to react to the same stimuli differently?"
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Re: Ever thought we'd be able to measure consciousness? No?
Anyway... to get this thread back on subject.
I found this in connection to the article in the OP and really thought it was interesting:
I found this in connection to the article in the OP and really thought it was interesting:
David Dobbs @ Wired Science wrote:The Consciousness Meter: Sure You Want That?
By David Dobbs September 23, 2010 | 10:00 am | Categories: Neuron Culture, Science Blogs
Where does consciousness come from? And when it ramps up or down, at what point does it move from consciousness to not-consciousness?
Carl Zimmer published both a blog post and a story in the New York Times yesterday looking at the work of Guilioi Tononi, a University of Wisconsin neuroscientist who looks at these questions. As Zimmer puts it, Tononi
In short, Tononi is trying to develop a consciousness meter. This piqued my interest, as a few years ago, shortly after immersing myself in consciousness studies for a a profile of Christof Koch, I wrote a piece for Slate pondering the implications of coming up with a conscious meter — or, as I called it, a “consciometer.”has been obsessed since childhood with building a theory of consciousness–a theory that could let him measure the level of consciousness with a number, just as doctors measure temperature and blood pressure with numbers.
The gist of the piece was that figuring this out might make some ethical dilemmas easier and some harder, because consciousness has taken on some distinct legal implications about both the end and the beginning of life.Sometime in the next decade or so, neuroscientists will likely identify the specific neural networks and activity that generate the vague but vital thing we call consciousness. Delineating the infrastructure of awareness is biology’s most difficult problem, but a leading researcher like Christof Koch, Gerald Edelman, or Stanislas Dehaene could soon solve it. Science will then possess what might be called a “consciometer”—a set of tests (probably an advanced version of a brain scan or EEG) that can measure consciousness the way kidney or lung function is now measured.
This practice spread through medicine and then law. And the basic equation — that is, measurable brain death = no consciousness = legally dead — was firmed up by the Schiavo case. This carries quite an irony, as conservatives, by pushing so hard on the Schiavo case, created a precedent that may bite them in beginning-of-life issues:The close association of consciousness with life dates only to the last half-century, when doctors learned to sustain heart and lung function long after awareness and will were gone. In the 1980s, legislators responded by establishing whole-brain death as the legal standard of death. At the same time, upper-brain death—the cessation of organized activity in the “thinking” cortex—became a common point at which to authorize the withdrawal of medical treatment. In theory, you can pick any state of health—upper-brain death or paralysis, for example—as your own signal to stop medical care. (Read an intensive-care doctor’s description of what happens when there’s no such signal.) But in practice most people choose the lack of demonstrable consciousness that doctors call a persistent vegetative state.
The tricky part comes when these definitions of life get applied at the beginning of life. The landmark 1973 case Roe v. Wade replaced an old marker of life — the “quickening” or first movements of the fetus — with one based on fetal viability, which typically occurs at about the 23d week. This was a tactical move meant to provide a firmer marker for legal purposes. Law seeks clarity. Which is where a consciousness meter could be quite tempting to the courts — and discouraging to anti-abortion conservatives:In the many appeals of the trial court’s decision to remove her feeding tube, however, state and federal courts repeatedly based their decisions on Schiavo’s cognitive status, making it the central issue in the case. Congress and the Bush administration similarly framed their efforts to restore Schiavo’s feeding tube. And here lies the affair’s great irony: Religious conservatives want the law to define life as the existence of a single living cell containing human DNA. Yet their Schiavo campaign bolstered both the acceptance of consciousness as the boundary between life and death and the authority of neuroscience to measure it.
The consciometer will strengthen this authority further.
How will the sort of consciousness meter contemplated by Tononi affect this? At first glance it seems like it won’t or can’t apply: Tononi is using EEG sensors, and how would you get those onto a fetus? You wouldn’t. Yet if Tononi can generate acceptance of the idea that certain relative levels and types, or “shapes,”* of brain activity mark consciousness, then the only thing preventing the scoring of the consciousness level of fetuses is a way to measure their brain activity without going inside the uterus. And I suspect that can’t be long.As leading neuroscientist Michael Gazzaniga, a member of President Bush’s Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn’t possess enough neural structure to harbor consciousness until about 26 weeks, when it first seems to react to pain. Before that, the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead.
The consciometer may not put the abortion issue to rest—given the deeply held religious and moral views on all sides, it’s hard to imagine that anything could. But by adding a definitive neurophysiological marker to the historical and secular precedents allowing abortion in the first two-thirds of pregnancy, it may greatly buttress the status quo or even slightly push back the 23-week boundary.
There is another possibility. The implications of the consciometer could create a backlash that displaces science as the legal arbiter of when life ends and begins. Such a shift—a rejection of science not because it is vague but because it is exact—would be a strange development, running counter to the American legal tradition. Should a fundamentalist view of life trump rationalist legal philosophy? Roe v. Wade considered this question explicitly and answered no. For nonfundamentalists, that probably still seems right.
This is all very what-iffy, of course. One huge caveat: As we learn more about the states of consciousness in people in comas and such, we’re seeing more and more gradations or classes of consciousness (or lack thereof), rather than a firmer line between consciousness and brain death. It used to be you were “brain dead” or not. Now we’re finding gradations between. Work like Tononi’s might only break that down further, breaking a black-and-white on-off scale further into a spectrum with subtle gradations.
On the other hand, he and others — and common experience — suggests that we badly want to define something unique and vital and elemental about consciousness: To prove that there’s a certain level of awareness and meta-awareness that essentially defines what it is to be alive.
It’ll be interesting to watch this develop.
_____
*I found Tononi’s notion of brain activity taking various shapes, explored in Zimmer’s blog post, the most intriguing part of the work Zimmer described. It brought immediately to mind (heh) György Buszaki’s beautiful and ground-breaking work on the vital role that patterns of brain-wave synchronization play in the brain’s work. (The first ten pages or so of Buszaki’s book are mind-blowing. Man’s on a roll.) So I was surprised when Zimmer’s story said, briefly and tantalizingly, that Tononi seemed to dismiss that work, or at least set it aside. I’d love to hear more about how his work differs or is incompatible. (Carl?)
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.