(Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won"

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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Bakustra wrote:The Greenpeace site does not say anything about radioactive water heating. What research can they do, exactly? They can build their own reactors, how? Mistrust is central to the anti-nuclear movement as it stands today. The reason they make false statements like that is that they assume that the companies and government are lying about everything. It's a conspiratorial mindset, but insisting that anti-nuclear activists are insincere- as Starglider indicated- renders you incapable of convincing them.
Where have I stated they are to build their own reactors? Your argument boils down to that they can't trust the literature and therefore are allowed to make shit up but are somehow still sincere. By making up these false statements, they know they are wrong. :lol: This isn't some cockamania crap like a holy bible to latch on to and 'sincerely' believe in a god. It is ludicrous and by your own admission we can't convince them anyway.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Bakustra »

Soontir C'boath wrote:
Bakustra wrote:The Greenpeace site does not say anything about radioactive water heating. What research can they do, exactly? They can build their own reactors, how? Mistrust is central to the anti-nuclear movement as it stands today. The reason they make false statements like that is that they assume that the companies and government are lying about everything. It's a conspiratorial mindset, but insisting that anti-nuclear activists are insincere- as Starglider indicated- renders you incapable of convincing them.
Where have I stated they are to build their own reactors? Your argument boils down to that they can't trust the literature and therefore are allowed to make shit up but are somehow still sincere. By making up these false statements, they know they are wrong. :lol: This isn't some cockamania crap like a holy bible to latch on to and 'sincerely' believe in a god. It is ludicrous and by your own admission we can't convince them anyway.
The hell are you talking about? The point is that you're talking about how they could do research. If they assume that the government and corporations are lying for their personal profit (much like how you assume they're lying), then there's no point in going to the official literature, because that's sure to be biased. They don't have the resources to do anything to actually test stuff, so they assume the worst for any scenario. In other words, they assume that when an official statement says "too little to cause harm", this really means that somebody died from it. It's a paranoid and conspiratorial viewpoint, but one that can be countered. I do have to wonder if you're deliberately misreading me, though: my point is that if you treat them as liars, then you're never going to be able to convince them, because they are genuinely sincere. But hey, what do I know. I've only met and talked to people who oppose nuclear power. But I guess they were all consummate, compulsive liars, right?
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Soontir C'boath »

You just explicitly claimed:
The reason they make false statements like that is that they assume that the companies and government are lying about everything
Not that these people ate the shit, hook, line, and sinker. Even then, there were the people who had told those gullible schucks the garbage in the first place. Anyway considering even you think it's a paranoid viewpoint, what are they going to listen or be convinced by even when not calling them 'liars'? Hell even saying "this is how it actually is and you're wrong" may provoke the same response anyway.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Bakustra »

Soontir C'boath wrote:You just explicitly claimed:
The reason they make false statements like that is that they assume that the companies and government are lying about everything
Not that these people ate the shit, hook, line, and sinker. Even then, there were the people who had told those gullible schucks the garbage in the first place. Anyway considering even you think it's a paranoid viewpoint, what are they going to listen or be convinced by even when not calling them 'liars'? Hell even saying "this is how it actually is and you're wrong" may provoke the same response anyway.
I am referring to objective falsehood, not a perception of falsehood on the part of the believer! Further, if you believe that the founders of Greenpeace are deliberately lying as opposed to being simply wrong but sincere, how do you account for one of the founding members arguing in favor of nuclear energy currently? Surely if he was in on the "conspiracy" he wouldn't have recanted, seeing as you believe that they profit somehow.

You can convince them by pointing to the facts. Rather than turning to official literature, you can show that there is no correlation between health risks and living near a nuclear power plant, that New Zealanders are not statistically more healthy than the French, and so on. Essentially, you can attack their premises by things which are unconnected to their alleged conspiracy and which would strain the credibility of the ideologues. In other words, how do you expect to convince people who already believe something? The same methods apply.
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I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Bakustra wrote:I am referring to objective falsehood, not a perception of falsehood on the part of the believer! Further, if you believe that the founders of Greenpeace are deliberately lying as opposed to being simply wrong but sincere, how do you account for one of the founding members arguing in favor of nuclear energy currently? Surely if he was in on the "conspiracy" he wouldn't have recanted, seeing as you believe that they profit somehow.
Considering his voice is not the prevailing view of Greenpeace and as he has yet to convince his colleagues, he hardly matters.
You can convince them by pointing to the facts. Rather than turning to official literature, you can show that there is no correlation between health risks and living near a nuclear power plant, that New Zealanders are not statistically more healthy than the French, and so on. Essentially, you can attack their premises by things which are unconnected to their alleged conspiracy and which would strain the credibility of the ideologues. In other words, how do you expect to convince people who already believe something? The same methods apply.
And yet, that lone dissenter in Greenpeace hasn't about face their stance on it.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Bakustra »

Soontir C'boath wrote:
Bakustra wrote:I am referring to objective falsehood, not a perception of falsehood on the part of the believer! Further, if you believe that the founders of Greenpeace are deliberately lying as opposed to being simply wrong but sincere, how do you account for one of the founding members arguing in favor of nuclear energy currently? Surely if he was in on the "conspiracy" he wouldn't have recanted, seeing as you believe that they profit somehow.
Considering his voice is not the prevailing view of Greenpeace and as he has yet to convince his colleagues, he hardly matters.
He's not a member anymore.
You can convince them by pointing to the facts. Rather than turning to official literature, you can show that there is no correlation between health risks and living near a nuclear power plant, that New Zealanders are not statistically more healthy than the French, and so on. Essentially, you can attack their premises by things which are unconnected to their alleged conspiracy and which would strain the credibility of the ideologues. In other words, how do you expect to convince people who already believe something? The same methods apply.
And yet, that lone dissenter in Greenpeace hasn't about face their stance on it.
So what is your method, then, since you have given into despair concerning the ability of persuasion? Is it oligarchy, or plain tyranny? If you want nuclear energy to proliferate, then the anti-nuclear movement needs to be confronted and convinced not to oppose nuclear energy. The only alternative is to abandon democratic principles so as to force an end-run around the whole "public opposition" thing.
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I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Bakustra wrote:
Soontir C'boath wrote:
Bakustra wrote:I am referring to objective falsehood, not a perception of falsehood on the part of the believer! Further, if you believe that the founders of Greenpeace are deliberately lying as opposed to being simply wrong but sincere, how do you account for one of the founding members arguing in favor of nuclear energy currently? Surely if he was in on the "conspiracy" he wouldn't have recanted, seeing as you believe that they profit somehow.
Considering his voice is not the prevailing view of Greenpeace and as he has yet to convince his colleagues, he hardly matters.
He's not a member anymore.
Ok, he hardly mattered when he was a member.
You can convince them by pointing to the facts. Rather than turning to official literature, you can show that there is no correlation between health risks and living near a nuclear power plant, that New Zealanders are not statistically more healthy than the French, and so on. Essentially, you can attack their premises by things which are unconnected to their alleged conspiracy and which would strain the credibility of the ideologues. In other words, how do you expect to convince people who already believe something? The same methods apply.
And yet, that lone dissenter in Greenpeace hasn't about face their stance on it.
So what is your method, then, since you have given into despair concerning the ability of persuasion? Is it oligarchy, or plain tyranny? If you want nuclear energy to proliferate, then the anti-nuclear movement needs to be confronted and convinced not to oppose nuclear energy. The only alternative is to abandon democratic principles so as to force an end-run around the whole "public opposition" thing.
No, I'd do it your way which is stating the facts and hope it goes through their thick skulls. I just wanted to know what you were thinking.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by mr friendly guy »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: No, it's still a matter of being selfish. Because all this charity work is about feel good factor, and making themselves feel good that they are doing something right rather than truly making people's lives better. This is a matter of self-delusions because few if ever will ever bring it upon themselves to help them. Ignorance is being too generous.
Question - why do you think giving to charity cannot be a combination of more than one factor. You seem to be arguing its just pure selfishness to feel good, but why can it not be a) to feel good b) to actually help the people because we are concern. Do you think it only counts if we do it and feel guilty like Christians do?

And yeah, I freely admit I give to charity for both those reasons. Since you don't give at all my anecdotal evidence triumphs your mythical mind reading powers.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Does it matter in how they are being selfish?
Even according to your own position it does since you are arguing that people won't help, due to selfishness, but if you go around saying that selfishness leads to the opposite effect, then yes it does matter because your whole position just comes down.

The only decent argument you have made is whether we capable of managing aid adequately, no whether we will give aid at all.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Erik von Nein »

Yeah, so, anyway, regardless of how well trusted nuclear power is by environmental organizations, how does this show that we'd have bitch-tastic nuclear plants all over the place or that this would solve climate change? The right in America supports nuclear well enough (so they say) and they aren't supposed to have much problem passing regulations, so where are the plants? Same place as they'll always be so long as coal and oil own a lot of the political process. Hell, even if they were built it wouldn't displace the amount of vehicles on the road, nor would they necessarily supplant the coal-fired plants.

Just looking at all the rhetoric surrounding the climate change debate should show you how the state of the world would be much the same.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Iosef Cross »

The main reason why nobody does anything about global warming is the lack of clearly defined costs and benefits of the reduction of Co2 emissions. We know that Co2 creates the tendency for the increase in global temperature, however, we don't know the full effects of Co2 emissions in the sense that: "one ton of Co2 emitted costs the world 43 cents of dollar in terms of damages caused by global warming."

So we don't know if your levels of pollution are optimal or if we should reduce your level of pollution if the costs of marginal reduction of Co2 emissions are lower than the marginal benefits.

One problem is that in this case private entrepreneurship cannot solve the problem, since there is no way of organizing property rights to make a global market of pollution rights to work because the damage from pollution is highly difuse: every individual in the world is affecting every other individual in the planet. So we are hostages of governments, and governments don't work.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by kouchpotato »

Iosef Cross wrote:The main reason why nobody does anything about global warming is the lack of clearly defined costs and benefits of the reduction of Co2 emissions.
Seriously? We know the benefits of reduction of Co2 emissions, not destroying our world. Are you that fucking thick that you can only see things in how much money you'll lose, and not say, how many people will die versus how many will survive as scavengers, cannibalizing each other just to wake up to an environmentally destroyed world each day?
Iosef Cross wrote:So we don't know if your levels of pollution are optimal or if we should reduce your level of pollution if the costs of marginal reduction of Co2 emissions are lower than the marginal benefits.
Yep, cause that's how we should look at this, dumbass. Not in terms of a potential threat to the lives of billions of people but in a way of how much money your company loses.
Iosef Cross wrote:One problem is that in this case private entrepreneurship cannot solve the problem, since there is no way of organizing property rights to make a global market of pollution rights to work because the damage from pollution is highly difuse: every individual in the world is affecting every other individual in the planet. So we are hostages of governments, and governments don't work.
Government doesn't work? Government works fine actually in situations where no profit is involved, like say, space travel. Do you think we would have gotten to the moon any time soon without the government? Or would the free market types randomly drop millions, maybe billions of dollars to go to the moon for shits and gigs? Cause, from a purely economic standpoint, it's a huge waste. We get nothing from it and it costs a shit ton of money. Good luck getting your profit oriented, uncaring business to do that, you fucking moron.

Goddamn, I really hate libertopians.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Too bad that China's GINI is about equal to the United States' -- with India being a bit better (!!).

So again, why do you hate brown/yellow people foreigners?
Oh Shepples, I love how gloriously dishonest you are. You so cheerfully take a two-factor solution to a problem, and then construct your own strawman to make it look like I claimed the solution was single factor. Those same regressions I ran showed that on its own, economic growth makes matters WORSE because it increases variance in income, thus creating a gambling mentality when it comes to child birth. Eagles lay two eggs because under normal conditions they can raise one, but in exceptional conditions can raise two, and it always helps to have an insurance policy in case one egg does not hatch. The same is true of people in the third world. They have more kids than they can feed on the off chance that conditions will improve. Increased economic growth without an increase in what the poor actually SEE, creates the impression in their little minds that they may be able to actually support 8 kids, when normally it may be optimal to have far fewer.

The reason the US does not have this issue is because per capita GDP is already sufficiently high that the variation in outcome for individuals families is largely smoothed out. Even here though, the poor have more kids than they can actually afford, FOR THE SAME FUCKING REASONS AFRICANS DO.

Right now the growing season in Northern Siberia and the Northern Canadian Shield is about 3 months or less. If you can raise this to four months via CC, the lower edges will become economic to grow at.
Not with their soils dumbfuck. Or did you ignore that part? Yes. You can grow things in a few areas, but not enough to actually compensate for the loss of the world's breadbaskets.

The last time human civilization underwent climate change on a scale this large as is hypothesized, we were basically hunter-gatherers with virtually no technic base to speak of and our food pyramid was highly susceptible to climactic change through prey animal's ranges shrinking or moving.

Now? We have highly advanced agriculture and animal husbandry methods, a whole courncoupia of portable power production methods ranging from ye olde ICE running off anything from gasoline to a variety of other fuels to future technologies like fuel cells.
Those agricultural and animal husbandry methods are still heavily climate dependent, and have massive down sides which in the long term will (and are in the process of) actually decrease the ability of the system to support those same agricultural methods.

1)High intensity agriculture creates groundwater and river depletion. The irrigation necessary to produce enough food to feed over seven billion people drains the ground water table and river systems. This creates some rather nasty problems. The first is that it decreases the long term ability to irrigate with ground water and river systems. The second is that the rivers that no longer reach the ocean do not carry nutrients back to the ocean and fucks up global nutrient cycling. Nutrients get bound up on the continents and decrease the productivity of marine ecosystems already stressed by over-exploitation.

2)The nutrient input is another problem. Agricultural runoff in freshwater systems creates some nasty environmental problems by causing eutrophication, which is not good for river systems as a general rule. In the cases of rivers (such as the Mississippi) that still reach the ocean, the outflow is so over-loaded with nutrients that it eutrophicates the oceans, particularly the river delta systems that serve as the breeding grounds for commercially important food stocks. This creates massive anoxic dead zones which further stress our already collapsing fisheries. To say nothing of the lost intrinsic value held by everything else in those systems. The nutrients combined with irrigation create other problems. The soil that the plants are grown in get over-loaded with salts. Remember what the romans did to carthage? It also destroys topsoil.

The particular problems will, without the effects of climate change, lead to the collapse of our ability to feed ourselves, dropping the earth's carrying capacity below its previous value of ~4 billion because even traditional pre-green-revolution organic methods will be less effective than they were before.

With climate change in the equation matters get worse

Climate change causes a global average increase in temperature. This increases evaporation. Increased evaporation means that irrigation will have to be intensified, leading to the salinification of soils and the loss of top soil accelerating. It will also increase the time between rainfall events, and increase the intensity thereof. This creates dry soil conditions, increases runoff and decreases the retention of nutrients and pesticides in the soil, causing more soil damage and increased damage to surrounding ecosystems. This is because—like a dry sponge-- dry soils do not absorb water as quickly as soil that is more moist. As a result, the water that get dumped on it does not get absorbed into the soil, does not recharge the ground water table, and does not get efficiently taken up by plants. This will speed up—again--the problems with soil retention, salinization, and create an inability to sufficiently irrigate. It will also create larger anaoxic dead zones.

Can you say “trophic collapse”? I can.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Zaune »

Iosef Cross wrote:The main reason why nobody does anything about global warming is the lack of clearly defined costs and benefits of the reduction of Co2 emissions. We know that Co2 creates the tendency for the increase in global temperature, however, we don't know the full effects of Co2 emissions in the sense that: "one ton of Co2 emitted costs the world 43 cents of dollar in terms of damages caused by global warming."...
Which is an impossible demand. A lot of the mechanics of our planet's climate are still not fully understood, and probably won't be for decades. The only thing we can say with absolute certainty is that human activity is doing something to it, and that the end result is highly likely to be to our long-term detriment.
The uncertainty in itself ought to be a pretty good argument not to dick around with our climate too much, seeing how we only have the one and it's got to last us a good long time, but we've never been all that good at thinking outside our own lifespans.
... One problem is that in this case private entrepreneurship cannot solve the problem, since there is no way of organizing property rights to make a global market of pollution rights to work because the damage from pollution is highly difuse: every individual in the world is affecting every other individual in the planet. So we are hostages of governments, and governments don't work.
Then they must be made to work.

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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Phantasee »

kouchpotato shows that he is a retard by assuming that Iosef Cross doesn't care about climate change beyond dollars and cents. If you could actually read, you'd see that he is explaining why nobody is going to act, and that is because nobody can add it up in terms they understand. "Survival of civilization" doesn't work out to convenient units of measure.

But hey let's all go for the cheap points, hey?
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by kouchpotato »

Maybe I grossly overestimate the intelligence of the average person but "billions will die" seems to be a pretty fucking clear indication. Dollars and cents shouldn't even come into a potentially civilization ending effect? Did we talk about the "clearly defined costs and benefits" of avoiding nuclear war? Oh shit, if New York gets hit I'll lose ten grand in the stocks! We must avoid this war at all costs.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Lord MJ »

kouchpotato wrote:Maybe I grossly overestimate the intelligence of the average person but "billions will die" seems to be a pretty fucking clear indication. Dollars and cents shouldn't even come into a potentially civilization ending effect? Did we talk about the "clearly defined costs and benefits" of avoiding nuclear war? Oh shit, if New York gets hit I'll lose ten grand in the stocks! We must avoid this war at all costs.
Using "Billions will die" and "civilization ending" as arguments of why we need to do something about Global Warming. People don't like "fearmongering" and tend to become resistant to arguments like that, espescially when it's the government trying to justify restrictions on freedom or the sacrifice of luxuries. The fact that the global warming could cause billions of deaths doesn't really matter.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Archaic` »

Lord MJ wrote:People don't like "fearmongering" and tend to become resistant to arguments like that, espescially when it's the government trying to justify restrictions on freedom or the sacrifice of luxuries. The fact that the global warming could cause billions of deaths doesn't really matter.
Continuing on that thread, I have to wonder just how much damage the environmental movement has done to itself and its objectives over the last several decades, by essentially allowing itself to be defined in the public eye on the basis of their most extreme members. If we'd started making smaller incremental movements over the past decades instead of trying to get it done in one go, I would've expected there'd be both a lot less resistance, and a lot more progress having been made.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Chaotic Neutral »

Archaic` wrote:
Lord MJ wrote:People don't like "fearmongering" and tend to become resistant to arguments like that, espescially when it's the government trying to justify restrictions on freedom or the sacrifice of luxuries. The fact that the global warming could cause billions of deaths doesn't really matter.
Continuing on that thread, I have to wonder just how much damage the environmental movement has done to itself and its objectives over the last several decades, by essentially allowing itself to be defined in the public eye on the basis of their most extreme members. If we'd started making smaller incremental movements over the past decades instead of trying to get it done in one go, I would've expected there'd be both a lot less resistance, and a lot more progress having been made.
Not to mention how they shot themselves in the leg with their anti-nuclear stance, instead of embracing it and getting more conservative support.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Lord MJ »

If only our President had the courage to enact a proposal like this, and if only our congress had the clarity of mind to pass it.

----

In order to prevent further escalation of greenhouse gases, and to preserve oil reserves for future generations:

1. Over the next 2 decades the government policy will be the virtual elimination of private automobile ownership except for those needing to travel to remote rural areas where rail is not viable. To facilitate this
a. over the next decade a massive stimulus will be enacted to create fully functional mass transit systems within the cities.
b. In addition high speed rail will be created to connect cities on a regional basis. Each regional rail network will be connected to each other via lower speed connector links, but it is expected that most Americans would not use rail for long range travel.
c. A series of taxes will be enacted on Automobile ownership as well as gasoline that will increase annually. The taxes will be deferred for those areas where the mass transit and rail has not yet been implemented. Automobiles owners in rural areas and those needing to travel to areas not served by rail can get exempted from paying the tax.

The result of this is that the usage of oil for travel purposes would be limited to shipping, military use, and air travel for distances not feasible to reach via rail. Some people will still chose to use cars for intracity travel, but that would be the exception rather than the norm.

2. Within 2 decades have 80% of our power generated by Nuclear energy. Replacing coal powered plants with Nuclear plants.

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If such a set of policies were implemented, what impact would it have on a.) Reducing Emissions b.) Curtailing oil consumption. And is 2 decades to late to do any good.

To bad this would never happen, the GOP would go APESHIT if Obama stood up and proposed measures like this. The car is a symbol of freedom for Americans and the notion of a government program to take them away would be bitterly opposed.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by kouchpotato »

Lord MJ wrote:
kouchpotato wrote:Maybe I grossly overestimate the intelligence of the average person but "billions will die" seems to be a pretty fucking clear indication. Dollars and cents shouldn't even come into a potentially civilization ending effect? Did we talk about the "clearly defined costs and benefits" of avoiding nuclear war? Oh shit, if New York gets hit I'll lose ten grand in the stocks! We must avoid this war at all costs.
Using "Billions will die" and "civilization ending" as arguments of why we need to do something about Global Warming. People don't like "fearmongering" and tend to become resistant to arguments like that, espescially when it's the government trying to justify restrictions on freedom or the sacrifice of luxuries. The fact that the global warming could cause billions of deaths doesn't really matter.
It's not fearmongering at all, it's one hundred percent true. We already have a billion people who don't have clean drinking water, and it will only get worse. Using the nuclear war example, it was generally accepted that a full nuclear exchange between NATO and the Warsaw Pact would destroy those countries outright. This was not fearmongering, this was simple, cold facts. People need to wake up and smell the fucking flowers, this isn't some petty concern we can brush away.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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It's not fearmongering at all, it's one hundred percent true.
Statements being true or false is of no consequence to whether or not they are "fear mongering". It's 100% true that everybody will die, but it's still fear mongering to run around shouting about how you're all going to die and should therefore get life insurance. Fear mongering is simply the use of fear to influence the opinions or behaviors of people.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Zaune »

adam_grif wrote:Statements being true or false is of no consequence to whether or not they are "fear mongering". It's 100% true that everybody will die, but it's still fear mongering to run around shouting about how you're all going to die and should therefore get life insurance. Fear mongering is simply the use of fear to influence the opinions or behaviors of people.
Do you really think we'd be any better off than we are now if the envoronmentalists had downplayed the crisis, told people what they wanted to hear, let them think a few token gestures would fix it all?
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by Iosef Cross »

kouchpotato wrote:
Iosef Cross wrote:The main reason why nobody does anything about global warming is the lack of clearly defined costs and benefits of the reduction of Co2 emissions.
Seriously? We know the benefits of reduction of Co2 emissions, not destroying our world. Are you that fucking thick that you can only see things in how much money you'll lose, and not say, how many people will die versus how many will survive as scavengers, cannibalizing each other just to wake up to an environmentally destroyed world each day?
Iosef Cross wrote:So we don't know if your levels of pollution are optimal or if we should reduce your level of pollution if the costs of marginal reduction of Co2 emissions are lower than the marginal benefits.
Yep, cause that's how we should look at this, dumbass. Not in terms of a potential threat to the lives of billions of people but in a way of how much money your company loses.
Iosef Cross wrote:One problem is that in this case private entrepreneurship cannot solve the problem, since there is no way of organizing property rights to make a global market of pollution rights to work because the damage from pollution is highly difuse: every individual in the world is affecting every other individual in the planet. So we are hostages of governments, and governments don't work.
Government doesn't work? Government works fine actually in situations where no profit is involved, like say, space travel. Do you think we would have gotten to the moon any time soon without the government? Or would the free market types randomly drop millions, maybe billions of dollars to go to the moon for shits and gigs? Cause, from a purely economic standpoint, it's a huge waste. We get nothing from it and it costs a shit ton of money. Good luck getting your profit oriented, uncaring business to do that, you fucking moron.

Goddamn, I really hate libertopians.
Oh, man...

The fact is that you don't like an "economic" analysis of the problem. That's nothing to do with "libertopia".

A real libertarian would call for the privatization of the atmosphere, so that pollution would be direct damage to private property. As result, polluting firms would have to pay for the right of using the privave property that is the atmosphere and the optimal level of pollution would be reached.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

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Phantasee wrote:kouchpotato shows that he is a retard by assuming that Iosef Cross doesn't care about climate change beyond dollars and cents. If you could actually read, you'd see that he is explaining why nobody is going to act, and that is because nobody can add it up in terms they understand. "Survival of civilization" doesn't work out to convenient units of measure.

But hey let's all go for the cheap points, hey?
If billions would die due to global warming, them the marginal benefits of reducing Co2 emissions in monetary terms would surely be much, much greater than the marginal costs.

But sure, my argument is that since the costs of global warming are dispersed over billions of people, the transaction costs of coordinating the reduction of pollution would be so high that nothing would be done. Also, Governments aren't dynamic organizations and doesn't have the incentives to act quickly.
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Re: (Op-Ed) George Monbiot: "Climate change deniers have won

Post by K. A. Pital »

Iosef Cross wrote:As result, polluting firms would have to pay for the right of using the privave property that is the atmosphere and the optimal level of pollution would be reached.
The real question is, would poor humans be required to pay for breathing, and would Repo Men put them in vacuum tanks to die from asphyxia?
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