40K Terminators in a Imperial star destroyer

[Archaic`]

Some teleporters are warp based othres not. The Warped based ones seem to be the ones most often used by the Space Marines (other types seem more like ST type transporters, although they largely stem from sources like BFG). Most teleporters like that do travel though the warp a short distance, although from what I recall the dangers implicit in that (As well as strain on the body) mean that generally only Astartes can safely risk that, and then again that requires using Terminator troops (meaining the VEterans.) And then you often need a teleport beacon (Accuracy does appear to matter) to ensure accuracy.

Inquistor Vail used teleporters, well, if not routinely then routine enough, and she didn't seem to suffer any warp-related effects. In fact her teleporter seemed ot be some kinda supertech that beamed her out of harms way immediately.

That was a Displacer Field, wasn't it? Is there any canon source that says what those are based on? Even a short trip in the warp unprotected would be pretty hazardous. It's one thing for an Inquisitor to do it, but IIRC, it's available to Imperial Guard Colonels in the tabletop game (or was an edition or two back), so it's not especially restricted tech.

[dworkin]

I've always believed that the displacer field's pack contains the soul of a particuarly whiny and insistant gamer, the sort that petuantly insists that their character was 'somewhere else' whenever shot at.

That a 40K device could work on such principles gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

[Imperial Overlord]

That was a Displacer Field, wasn't it? Is there any canon source that says what those are based on? Even a short trip in the warp unprotected would be pretty hazardous. It's one thing for an Inquisitor to do it, but IIRC, it's available to Imperial Guard Colonels in the tabletop game (or was an edition or two back), so it's not especially restricted tech.

Yeah, it is a Displacer Field and it sends you into the warp for only a split second. The risk is minimal unless you've got a warp predator stalking you. It's rare tech, produced in only a few, if any, places anymore. A significant number of IG senior officers are from old, aristocratic families with access to very restricted tech and heirloom archeotech possessions.

[Connor MacLeod]

If i am not mistaken, the teleport-attacks in BFG were more of a catch-all phrase for very short-ranged attacks, including the usage of non-dedicated assault crafts like planetary shuttles and the like. (Semi-Edit: Teleports attacks are a subcategory of the Hit&Run Attack rules. That they are called that for all ships might be for sake of simplicity).
While that relies of a statement by the designer i read in some White Dwarf, it is supported by the rules for Rogue Trader - where you can do something very similar to teleport attacks with shuttles etc. which can be done way better with a teleporter. This is simply not represented in such detail in BFG for the sake of simplicity.

While i have no knowledge about the particularies of the second edition, i have not yet seen a single description of teleportation in any later editions or stories that does not use the warp (necrons aside).

BFG:
Page 34

The boarding vessel manoeuvres close to an enemy ship and sends a wave of armed crewmen across via teleporters, shuttles, life pods and in pressure suits to grab a foothold on the otuer hull fo the enemy vessel.

Page 35

Ships which are close to their enemies may attmept ot initiate a small-scale boarding action using their teleporters. However, active shields interfere with teleport beams, so such attacks can only be made against an enemy whose shields have been knocked down. Onmly the largest ships have the teleport capacity ot move enough men onto their target to inflict the neccessary amount of damage and such teleport attacks require prodigious amounts of energy form the ship's reactors.

Nope, teleporters are distinct and separate from other methods and we're talking independently of space marines (Space Marine vessels got introduced later, and even then don't have large crews to begin with - the boarding in those cases is always by Marines.)

[Cykeisme]

Teleports attacks are a subcategory of the Hit&Run Attack rules. That they are called that for all ships might be for sake of simplicity).

Let me clarify Connor's response to this.

The main header for the page is "Hit-and-Run Attacks". Under this header, there are three separate subheaders, each explaining a different, specific type of hit-and-run attack: Assault Boats, Boarding Torpedoes and Teleport Attacks.

The subheader "Teleport Attacks" is clearly referring exclusvely to the actual action of teleporters being used to send troops to board an enemy vessel, with no abstraction clouding this point. It has some of its own distinct limitations as well.. teleport attacks cannot be performed on targets with void shields that are still up, unlike the other two listed types. Another limitation is that smaller ships (or badly damaged larger ships) do not have the neccessary levels of energy generation to teleport boarding parties of significant size onto enemy vessels.

[Serafina]

The abstraction is that the rules assume that all ships have teleports for sake of simplicity.
There are other known means to do what a teleport attack does - a short-range attack with a small strike team against an enemy craft without shields. One of those means, described in Rogue Trader (the Pen&Paper RPG), simply involves shuttles that are not dedicated for such a purpose (such as planetary shuttles).

Given that we see no other instance that describes every IoM-ship having teleporters, i do not see why we should use abstract rules to establish that they do.

[Cykeisme]

The abstraction is that the rules assume that all ships have teleports for sake of simplicity.
There are other known means to do what a teleport attack does - a short-range attack with a small strike team against an enemy craft without shields. One of those means, described in Rogue Trader (the Pen&Paper RPG), simply involves shuttles that are not dedicated for such a purpose (such as planetary shuttles).

Given that we see no other instance that describes every IoM-ship having teleporters, i do not see why we should use abstract rules to establish that they do.

I disagree, from the perspective of how the page is laid out, and from the way the rules work, it's very clear that the Battlefleet Gothic rules for Teleport Attacks represents nothing aside from attacks using teleporters.

I'm not sure if you've actually played BFG, or used the Advanced Rules such as these; there is an important distinction between Boarding Actions and Hit and Run Attacks.
What you described, boarding using non-purpose built shuttles and lifepods, is covered under "Boarding actions" on the previous page. These involve a general invasion of the enemy ship that, when they work, result in general damage to a ship's hit points (perhaps representing randomly planting charges throughout a ship's internal workings), with a chance that critical systems may actually be damaged.
Meanwhile, Hit and Run attacks are specifically targeted attacks utilizing very precise methods of deployment of troops into choice locations on an enemy vessel. A successful Hit and Run attack results in nothing more or less than a critical hit: disabling a specific system on an enemy ship.

Additionally, Teleport Attacks have a 10cm range (which represents significant distance), yet does not require a marker to traverse the distance, precluding the possibility of representing shuttles.

You can make the argument that the availability of teleporters to all ships is inconsistent with the fiction, and I would actually agree with that; it's doubtful that all Imperial Navy ships would be equipped with teleporters. Plus, that section is game mechanics rules, which often disagree with material devoted to fictional portrayal ("fluff") of 40k. The fiction (such as novels) override game mechanics parts of rulebooks for analysis purposes, anyway.
However, there is no doubt that the Teleport Attacks section of game rules in questions represents exclusively attacks involving teleporters. I realize I might be being overly pedantic here!

[Purple]

It could be that the Holy Fleet simply treats the boarding parties like the Imperial Guard treats their troops.
Send them over through the warp in a teleporter.
If they get there safe and do their job. Cool.
If you can get them back too, equally (but not particularly more) cool.
If they get lost in the warp. What ever, send over the next team.

[Cykeisme]

It could be that the Holy Fleet simply treats the boarding parties like the Imperial Guard treats their troops.
Send them over through the warp in a teleporter.
If they get there safe and do their job. Cool.
If you can get them back too, equally (but not particularly more) cool.
If they get lost in the warp. What ever, send over the next team.

Hmm, that's a possibility. Warp teleporters have horrible casualties for normal humans, but naval ratings are just chucked into the 'porta and some come out the other side to start making trouble on the enemy ship. Due to the terrible rate of safe transportation, they're used almost exclusively for this purpose.

Can this be reconciled with other fiction, or does it remain a discrepancy between BFG game mechanics and established 40k canon?
Any thoughts on this, Connor and Serafina?

[Black Admiral]

Teleporters don't seem to be at all common in the Imperial Navy; the only times I can recall them being mentioned on non-Astartes or Mechanicus ships are the Emperor-class battleship Enduring Blade's teleporters in the Fire Warrior novelization and the Inquisition Light of Truth from Ragnar's Claw.

Even some Space Marine Chapters don't have access to working teleporters (see: the Soul Drinkers, but admittedly that might just be because they're morons - they've got sod-all in the way of Terminator armour, vehicles or Dreadnoughts too).

[Cykeisme]

Probably leaning toward irreconciliable discrepancy then. It's just the BFG game, then.

Even Light of Truth is an Inquisitorial ship, and I can go for that.. the Inquisition pretty much gets all the cool stuff they want.

[Serafina]

Probably leaning toward irreconcilable discrepancy then. It's just the BFG game, then.

Which is pretty much what i have been trying to say - you can't take a rule from a generalized game (which can be explained in other ways) and conclude that all ships have teleport capacities if we never see these teleporters being used anywhere else, except on extraordinary ships.

[Cykeisme]

Well, when it comes to this rule, the game is very specifically representing teleporters. How do you explain the fact that there is no shuttle marker travelling between the ships? Or that the target ship's point defense turrets cannot reduce the incoming boarders on this type of attack?

The rule is specific about representing teleporters, but it's simply game mechanics, much in the same way Space Marines are watered down in 40k tabletop; it's not accurate to the fiction.

[Connor MacLeod]

Teleporters don't seem to be at all common in the Imperial Navy; the only times I can recall them being mentioned on non-Astartes or Mechanicus ships are the Emperor-class battleship Enduring Blade's teleporters in the Fire Warrior novelization and the Inquisition Light of Truth from Ragnar's Claw.

I never said they were *common*, I even mentioned that not all warships may have them. The Rogue Trader RPG mentions the ability to put teleporters on ships - at least Rogue Traders can get them although they're considered "archeotech" IIRC (and it doesn't explicitly prevent any othre type of character from getting them, since lots of different "classes" are depicted...)

Besides, I dislike taking the "Because it's mentioned rarely its probably contradictory" approach simply because you can apply that to so many things in 40K (If we took that approach, starships would only have macrocannon and lasercannon as starship armament - grav weapons and railguns and missiles are "rarely mentioned" after all....)

Even some Space Marine Chapters don't have access to working teleporters (see: the Soul Drinkers, but admittedly that might just be because they're morons - they've got sod-all in the way of Terminator armour, vehicles or Dreadnoughts too).

They have them, they just don't work as I recall. Either their techmarines lack the resources or training to maintain them, or they just have poor ties ot the AdMech (probably that, I'm betting, considering the AdMech was one contributing factor to their downfall.)

]Which is pretty much what i have been trying to say - you can't take a rule from a generalized game (which can be explained in other ways) and conclude that all ships have teleport capacities if we never see these teleporters being used anywhere else, except on extraordinary ships.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. More often than not fluff details can and will be mixed up in the rules and whatnot (There are ample cases of "game mechanics" stuff incorporating in-universe elements in MANY of the different game systems. Ex: Imperial armour 6 has mention of void shields on super heavy vehicles in the rules section covering such vehicles and specifically mentions void shields being based on warp technology.) And point of fact, gameplay and game mechanics DO influence the writing whether one likes it or not, so that further muddies the waters in those respects.

More to the point, its arbitrary. One might as well accept or dismiss sources purely on the basis of authors you like, or level of grimdarkitude, or how stylistically a novel matches up with the themes and atmosphere of 40K, or "authors intent" or something equally nebulous and ludicrous.

[SAMAS]

Can they blow holes into space like that? I'd assume that there suits are vacumn sealed but again i'm not sure.

The hole doesn't need to be into space. Terminators can't jump. Of course the suits are sealed against vacuum.

But would the escaping air pressure be enough to suck them out?

Old post, I know, but that rarely comes up.

[Serafina]

Given that Terminators weight more than a metric ton and have systems to lock themselves onto the ground - no, escaping air is unlikely to pull them outside.

[Oskuro]

Would escaping air from a ship generate enough pressure to suck someone out anyway? Or is that just a movie myth?

[IvanTih]

Given that Terminators weight more than a metric ton and have systems to lock themselves onto the ground - no, escaping air is unlikely to pull them outside.

Those "system" are magnetic boots.

[Simon_Jester]

Would escaping air from a ship generate enough pressure to suck someone out anyway? Or is that just a movie myth?

From a big enough hole, I suspect it's entirely possible. But if you were standing in the same room as the hole when it formed, you'd probably be killed by whatever made the hole: explosives going off, or a beam weapon penetrating the hull.

When the pressure gradient is that big, with vacuum on one side of the room and sea-level air on the other, you get very high speed winds, on the order of the speed of sound, trying to equalize the pressure. At least briefly, we're talking about well beyond hurricane force winds here.

But you can't get that with a small puncture; you'd basically have to remove the wall of a compartment, and even then objects that are firmly fixed to the deck aren't going to be shifted.

[Firnagzen]

Though Cain noted that it was a desperate gambit and there might have been a few CSMs stuck in the core of the planet or something (but that is just his speculations). Still, this means teleporters can work beyond LOS - or at least they can beam stuff through entire worlds.

It was Amberley Vail in a footnote.

For the World Eaters to have mounted a successful deep strike by teleporter through the bulk of the entire planet would have been a remarkable feat to say the least; we can only speculate how many attempts this would have taken, and how many would have been entombed in the core of Ambduria...

Interesting point, though, is that the amount of stuff between you and your target makes a different, probably beaming deeper into the ship is less accurate. By what degree, I cannot say, but hey. On the other hand, the ship's bridge is nice and exposed and unblocked by all that pesky stuff...

I also submit that increasing the gravity to pin the terminators in place would not work that well, even if it could be done; considering how strong the Terminators are, you'd probably have to jack up the gravity ludicrously, resulting in a few tonnes of force being applied to the deckplates. And the gravplates are just under that thin sheet of metal plating, generally. Imagine it, gravity multiplies by ten, and several tonnes of space marine and armour crash down on their knees. Or even just from their standing position. Crunch.

[Imperial Overlord]

There is at least one other instance of teleporter equipped ships being mentioned in the fiction. Molotch is maimed by a botched teleportation by a Rogue Trader in Ravenor Rogue. As for the Soul Drinkers, they scuttled their entire fleet because for some reason they thought that traveling in a space hulk they happened across was sneakier.