[Blog]End of the Road for the RN(Longish)

[Stuart Mackey]

Still better than depending on whatever the US deigns to export, especially if the Teabaggers prove to be more than a flash in the pan. If nothing else, we need the foreign goodwill and the foreign exchange.

What you need is to stop spending more than you earn and get your own trade back under your own control.

How the heck is the UK going to end up better if they leave the EU trade system?

I don't recall saying that they should, what I did say is that the UK should control their own trade again, that is to say the same as every other nation. Being able to enter into free trade agreements with other nations outside the EU that suit the UK can only be of benefit, especially given the absurd protectionist practices of the EU.

They are too insignificant to do much against the combined EU market.

Like Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Malaysia or Switzerland etc etc? The UK has the sixth largest economy in the world, what they do not need it to be restrained by the EU.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip.

Like the A400M? Thats worked out so well hasn't it, or the 'Horizon' ships? and its a fine example of corporate efficiency being fucked by politics. Politics is the handicap, its not, necessarily, the corporate side. You are dead right about production runs, but thats politics and everyone is is riven with it, and you cannot avoid that. If the UK wants a weapon system all they need to do put out the tender and stop buggering around with it, or let other nations bugger around with it. As for weapons systems getting complicated and expensive, this is true but then for all that sophistication a bunch of blokes in Afghanistan, like the Vietnamese before them, are showing that its the man and the idea that matter a whole lot more your shiny piece of Euro kit.

Vive la AK47!

Vive la RPG!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

snip.

Like the A400M? Thats worked out so well hasn't it, or the 'Horizon' ships? and its a fine example of corporate efficiency being fucked by politics. Politics is the handicap, its not, necessarily, the corporate side. You are dead right about production runs, but thats politics and everyone is is riven with it, and you cannot avoid that. If the UK wants a weapon system all they need to do put out the tender and stop buggering around with it, or let other nations bugger around with it. As for weapons systems getting complicated and expensive, this is true but then for all that sophistication a bunch of blokes in Afghanistan, like the Vietnamese before them, are showing that its the man and the idea that matter a whole lot more your shiny piece of Euro kit.

Vive la AK47!

Vive la RPG!

That defeats your notion that the UK can produce its own weapon systems right?

[Stuart Mackey]

snip.

Like the A400M? Thats worked out so well hasn't it, or the 'Horizon' ships? and its a fine example of corporate efficiency being fucked by politics. Politics is the handicap, its not, necessarily, the corporate side. You are dead right about production runs, but thats politics and everyone is is riven with it, and you cannot avoid that. If the UK wants a weapon system all they need to do put out the tender and stop buggering around with it, or let other nations bugger around with it. As for weapons systems getting complicated and expensive, this is true but then for all that sophistication a bunch of blokes in Afghanistan, like the Vietnamese before them, are showing that its the man and the idea that matter a whole lot more your shiny piece of Euro kit.

Vive la AK47!

Vive la RPG!

That defeats your notion that the UK can produce its own weapon systems right?

No.
I have a very capable sword on my wall, its US made, does my lack of ability to use it properly affect the manufactures ability to make it? Of course not, what it means is that if I want to use it, I must learn how. Moreover, even if I do know how to use it that does not mean that I can defeat every person who wants to have a go. There is more to fighting than the weapon, the skill or the doctrine, there is above all the will to win against all odds, no matter the cost.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

No.
I have a very capable sword on my wall, its US made, does my lack of ability to use it properly affect the manufactures ability to make it? Of course not, what it means is that if I want to use it, I must learn how. Moreover, even if I do know how to use it that does not mean that I can defeat every person who wants to have a go. There is more to fighting than the weapon, the skill or the doctrine, there is above all the will to win against all odds, no matter the cost.

No, this is what you said:

The UK is perfectly capable of putting out good weapon systems, but you have to relearn how to do it properly first, and that probably means you have to stop the EU lot from buggering it all up.

Buying from the US, with some UK components isn't going to help. UK companies need to sell what they have abroad. But who's going to buy them? The US continues to tighten the ability of foreign nations to buy anything outside the US. For example, they have forced nations to buy its own EW equipment, thus denying the Israelis a market. The US is also on the verge of cancelling the Rolls Royce engine for the F35. In fact, i suspect they would if they had it their way.

[Stuart Mackey]

No.
I have a very capable sword on my wall, its US made, does my lack of ability to use it properly affect the manufactures ability to make it? Of course not, what it means is that if I want to use it, I must learn how. Moreover, even if I do know how to use it that does not mean that I can defeat every person who wants to have a go. There is more to fighting than the weapon, the skill or the doctrine, there is above all the will to win against all odds, no matter the cost.

No, this is what you said:

Then why did you quote something else entirely, ffs?

Buying from the US, with some UK components isn't going to help. UK companies need to sell what they have abroad. But who's going to buy them? The US continues to tighten the ability of foreign nations to buy anything outside the US. For example, they have forced nations to buy its own EW equipment, thus denying the Israelis a market. The US is also on the verge of cancelling the Rolls Royce engine for the F35. In fact, i suspect they would if they had it their way.

Where did this come from?
If nations allow themselves to be bullied by the US then its their own damn fault. Take a leaf from the NZ book, grow a pair and give uncle Sam a two fingered salute.

(Incidentally, I was talking about the very real US made sword I have on my wall, that I do not know how to use. Made by an outfit called Arms and Armor, they are a very good maker if you are ever in that market)

[Colonel Olrik]

snip.

Like the A400M?

There's life beyond the A400M.

Thats worked out so well hasn't it, or the 'Horizon' ships? and its a fine example of corporate efficiency being fucked by politics. Politics is the handicap, its not, necessarily, the corporate side. You are dead right about production runs, but thats politics and everyone is is riven with it, and you cannot avoid that. If the UK wants a weapon system all they need to do put out the tender and stop buggering around with it, or let other nations bugger around with it.

So your choices are between the UK taxpayers shouldering the whole cost of new weapon systems (best of luck trying to convince them), or become a client state. Gotcha. Besides, you seem to think that $XX = weapon. It doesn't work that way. You need intellectual and physical resources that are hard to come by and quick to lose if you don't use them (say, by buying from the US). So if you want to keep a capability in the future you are forced to keep some true local investment going or it doesn't really matter how much money you have. Once the people are gone (to other countries or industries) it takes decades to replace them. It's very simple. For example, in aerospace we're still often rediscovering tech that has been lost since the 60/70s, despite how advanced we generally are in comparison to that era. And guess the reason why the UK is forced to buy nuclear power stations from France?

The UK's skill base is well complemented by the French and the German (and of course others), and in a scenario of real cooperation and knowledge transfer, like it is finally becoming reality, synergies lead to saved money, time and better systems while keeping the knowledge base and skill set intact. You can still fuck up commitments yes, but you can believe me, the UK leaders and engineers have a share in the mess equal to everybody else.

As for weapons systems getting complicated and expensive, this is true but then for all that sophistication a bunch of blokes in Afghanistan, like the Vietnamese before them, are showing that its the man and the idea that matter a whole lot more your shiny piece of Euro kit.

Vive la AK47!

Vive la RPG!

Yes, you're absolutely right, our Euro kits are mainly designed to fight guerrilla's in Afghanistan, and not, say, to keep the Russians and Chinese in check. Let's stick to AK47's and let the other major powers in the world have a riot. It cannot bring any consequences for the future, nope.

Besides, if national existence was truly at stake, several shiny Euro kits would deliver quite a blow to Afghanistan, at high Mach and high altitude where the RPGs can't fly.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip.

Like the A400M?

There's life beyond the A400M.

Lol, pleading for another chance?

So your choices are between the UK taxpayers shouldering the whole cost of new weapon systems (best of luck trying to convince them), or become a client state. Gotcha. Besides, you seem to think that $XX = weapon. snip

Says who? who produced the Daring class or will eventually build the Type 26? You are confusing ignorant politicians with corporate capacity. Yes, skills atrophy and disappear if not utilized, that is a given and something our glorious leaders do not appretiate but if you have it and use it that does not happen.

Yes, you're absolutely right, our Euro kits are mainly designed to fight guerrilla's in Afghanistan, and not, say, to keep the Russians and Chinese in check. Let's stick to AK47's and let the other major powers in the world have a riot. It cannot bring any consequences for the future, nope.

Besides, if national existence was truly at stake, several shiny Euro kits would deliver quite a blow to Afghanistan, at high Mach and high altitude where the RPGs can't fly.

You/we are loosing to a bunch of fucking medieval tribesmen with a Koran in one hand and an AK in the other, so yeah, so much for your shiny sophisticated kit. If you cannot beat the Taliban, I wouldn't trust you to fight off the Chinese revolutionary girl scouts no matter how sophisticated your kit is, because you clearly don't know what you are doing where it actually matters, and its not in uber warplanes. And who gives a fuck about how high your wee plane can fly when Islamic nutters are cowing your governments with threats of violence in your very streets, already Jewish families are leaving Malmo because of blatant anti-semitism and intimidation.
So if I were you I wouldn't be worried about China, they cannot invade Taiwan let alone Europe, I would be looking at matters a lot closer to home.
You cant fight ideas with bombs.

[Colonel Olrik]

Lol, pleading for another chance?

Lol, let's look at MBDA's catalog, just to stick with what I'm the most familiar with. Quite a few ongoing projects there as well.

Says who? who produced the Daring class or will eventually build the Type 26? You are confusing ignorant politicians with corporate capacity. Yes, skills atrophy and disappear if not utilized, that is a given and something our glorious leaders do not appreciate but if you have it and use it that does not happen.

That the UK is specially adept at warship building is hardly a surprise. That critical components of the ships have been and will be developed at an European level shouldn't be a surprise to you (guess with whom BAE systems integrates with). Besides, let's see if, when and how many Type 26 are built, and if the costs don't increase a tiny bit

You/we are loosing to a bunch of fucking medieval tribesmen with a Koran in one hand and an AK in the other, so yeah, so much for your shiny sophisticated kit. If you cannot beat the Taliban, I wouldn't trust you to fight off the Chinese revolutionary girl scouts no matter how sophisticated your kit is, because you clearly don't know what you are doing where it actually matters, and its not in uber warplanes. And who gives a fuck about how high your wee plane can fly when Islamic nutters are cowing your governments with threats of violence in your very streets, already Jewish families are leaving Malmo because of blatant anti-semitism and intimidation.

It looks quite more peaceful from here than what you describe. Next doors to me there's Oktoberfest going on, 10 million people visiting. Clearly, we're drinking because we're terrorized.

So if I were you I wouldn't be worried about China, they cannot invade Taiwan let alone Europe, I would be looking at matters a lot closer to home.
You cant fight ideas with bombs.

Just as you can't safely fight bombs, tanks and supersonic jets with ideas.

[Simon_Jester]

So your choices are between the UK taxpayers shouldering the whole cost of new weapon systems (best of luck trying to convince them), or become a client state. Gotcha. Besides, you seem to think that $XX = weapon. snip

Says who? who produced the Daring class or will eventually build the Type 26? You are confusing ignorant politicians with corporate capacity. Yes, skills atrophy and disappear if not utilized, that is a given and something our glorious leaders do not appretiate but if you have it and use it that does not happen.

Yes, you're absolutely right, our Euro kits are mainly designed to fight guerrilla's in Afghanistan, and not, say, to keep the Russians and Chinese in check. Let's stick to AK47's and let the other major powers in the world have a riot. It cannot bring any consequences for the future, nope.

Besides, if national existence was truly at stake, several shiny Euro kits would deliver quite a blow to Afghanistan, at high Mach and high altitude where the RPGs can't fly.

You/we are loosing to a bunch of fucking medieval tribesmen with a Koran in one hand and an AK in the other, so yeah, so much for your shiny sophisticated kit. If you cannot beat the Taliban, I wouldn't trust you to fight off the Chinese revolutionary girl scouts no matter how sophisticated your kit is, because you clearly don't know what you are doing where it actually matters, and its not in uber warplanes. And who gives a fuck about how high your wee plane can fly when Islamic nutters are cowing your governments with threats of violence in your very streets, already Jewish families are leaving Malmo because of blatant anti-semitism and intimidation.
So if I were you I wouldn't be worried about China, they cannot invade Taiwan let alone Europe, I would be looking at matters a lot closer to home.
You cant fight ideas with bombs.

So, Mackay, does that mean that the bombs are a waste of money? That they're buying the wrong bombs? What's the point?

If your criticism boils down to "EU weapons are shitty, the British should develop their own," you can't invalidate that with "you can't fight ideas with bombs." Not unless the British have magic powers of building idea-vaporizing bombs.

Or does your criticism boil down to "bombs are a waste of money, we should be working on something different?" In which case having Britain develop its own weapon systems isn't going to help, because you can be damn sure the RN and RAF aren't interested in being abolished on account of the fact that they can't kill ideas.

So, I have to ask again, what's the point?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Then why did you quote something else entirely, ffs?

Because you go twisting adn turning your damn words. It's not me who goes around making claims.

Where did this come from?
If nations allow themselves to be bullied by the US then its their own damn fault. Take a leaf from the NZ book, grow a pair and give uncle Sam a two fingered salute.

(Incidentally, I was talking about the very real US made sword I have on my wall, that I do not know how to use. Made by an outfit called Arms and Armor, they are a very good maker if you are ever in that market)

Rhetoric doesn't solve actual problems.

[Aaron]

Its almost as if there are concerns other then how many Taliban we kill (Leo2 has performed exemplary BTW), and that having no plan on the political front other then:

1.Install Democracy
2.
3. Victory

Will result in the West fleeing Afghanistan with our tail between our legs and the country being left a broken, burned out wreck. It will of course be claimed a victory.

In other words, it doesn't matter what kit we use (frankly we could roll them up with Soviet era gear) or how many we kill if the politicians have no bloody idea what to do.

[Stuart Mackey]

Lol, pleading for another chance?

Lol, let's look at MBDA's catalog, just to stick with what I'm the most familiar with. Quite a few ongoing projects there as well.

Whats new there?

That the UK is specially adept at warship building is hardly a surprise. That critical components of the ships have been and will be developed at an European level shouldn't be a surprise to you (guess with whom BAE systems integrates with). Besides, let's see if, when and how many Type 26 are built, and if the costs don't increase a tiny bit

Thats the thing, is it not? politicians vs sensible economic practices. Type 26, 500mil pounds per copy? not much an export earner there, but thats politics for you.

It looks quite more peaceful from here than what you describe. Next doors to me there's Oktoberfest going on, 10 million people visiting. Clearly, we're drinking because we're terrorized.

So Theo van Gough was a random murder, or all those Jewish people leaving Malmo are just going on vacation? then there was that whole spineless response to the cartoon fiasco, and it was a fiasco; not often one gets to see so many politicians bend over and ask for more in unison. So much for free speech. Eurofighter didn't do a damn thing about it either when the Islamic nations decided to boycott their exports.

Just as you can't safely fight bombs, tanks and supersonic jets with ideas.

There is nothing safe about war. You can have your shiny kit, means sweet FA if they are not winning the war for you, just ask the government of South Vietnam, perhaps you can call their embassy on that question?

[Stuart Mackey]

So your choices are between the UK taxpayers shouldering the whole cost of new weapon systems (best of luck trying to convince them), or become a client state. Gotcha. Besides, you seem to think that $XX = weapon. snip

Says who? who produced the Daring class or will eventually build the Type 26? You are confusing ignorant politicians with corporate capacity. Yes, skills atrophy and disappear if not utilized, that is a given and something our glorious leaders do not appretiate but if you have it and use it that does not happen.

Yes, you're absolutely right, our Euro kits are mainly designed to fight guerrilla's in Afghanistan, and not, say, to keep the Russians and Chinese in check. Let's stick to AK47's and let the other major powers in the world have a riot. It cannot bring any consequences for the future, nope.

Besides, if national existence was truly at stake, several shiny Euro kits would deliver quite a blow to Afghanistan, at high Mach and high altitude where the RPGs can't fly.

You/we are loosing to a bunch of fucking medieval tribesmen with a Koran in one hand and an AK in the other, so yeah, so much for your shiny sophisticated kit. If you cannot beat the Taliban, I wouldn't trust you to fight off the Chinese revolutionary girl scouts no matter how sophisticated your kit is, because you clearly don't know what you are doing where it actually matters, and its not in uber warplanes. And who gives a fuck about how high your wee plane can fly when Islamic nutters are cowing your governments with threats of violence in your very streets, already Jewish families are leaving Malmo because of blatant anti-semitism and intimidation.
So if I were you I wouldn't be worried about China, they cannot invade Taiwan let alone Europe, I would be looking at matters a lot closer to home.
You cant fight ideas with bombs.

So, Mackay, does that mean that the bombs are a waste of money? That they're buying the wrong bombs? What's the point?

If your criticism boils down to "EU weapons are shitty, the British should develop their own," you can't invalidate that with "you can't fight ideas with bombs." Not unless the British have magic powers of building idea-vaporizing bombs.

Or does your criticism boil down to "bombs are a waste of money, we should be working on something different?" In which case having Britain develop its own weapon systems isn't going to help, because you can be damn sure the RN and RAF aren't interested in being abolished on account of the fact that they can't kill ideas.

So, I have to ask again, what's the point?

A very good point. You get yourself involved in wars you cannot, or do not want to win, and effectively borrow to finance it all, and more to the point you spend a fortune on weapon systems that are not helping you win said war. "Whats the Point" is a very good question, shame people are dying to work it out.

[Stuart Mackey]

Then why did you quote something else entirely, ffs?

Because you go twisting adn turning your damn words. It's not me who goes around making claims.

I still do not follow. You made a comment that wasn't related to what you quoted

Rhetoric doesn't solve actual problems.

What rhetoric? NZ did give the US the finger and told them to shove off, it was one of the best things we have ever done.

[Thanas]

I don't recall saying that they should, what I did say is that the UK should control their own trade again, that is to say the same as every other nation.

And how are they going to do that aside from leaving the EU?

They are too insignificant to do much against the combined EU market.

Like Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Malaysia or Switzerland etc etc? The UK has the sixth largest economy in the world, what they do not need it to be restrained by the EU.

Every example besides Switzerland does not have the EU next door and does not really need the EU as a have-or-die market. Switzerland has already signed many of the trade agreements and takes great care not to anger the EU, even abandoning their most secret bank silence in order to do so.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I still do not follow. You made a comment that wasn't related to what you quoted

Since when did this discussion evolve into one about New Zealand? We are talking about the UK aren't we?

What rhetoric? NZ did give the US the finger and told them to shove off, it was one of the best things we have ever done.

As I said in the previous thread, NZ is so far off people could forget you buggers exist. And this is a discussion about the UK, and not about NZ.

Besides, NZ doesn't even have the money to buy the F-35, so the discussion is moot.

[Thanas]

So Theo van Gough was a random murder, or all those Jewish people leaving Malmo are just going on vacation? then there was that whole spineless response to the cartoon fiasco, and it was a fiasco; not often one gets to see so many politicians bend over and ask for more in unison. So much for free speech. Eurofighter didn't do a damn thing about it either when the Islamic nations decided to boycott their exports.

You are so far out of the loop in Europe that I am really wondering on what planet you live. Heck, just a few days ago Merkel awarded a prize to the cartoonist in question. And there is no exodus of Jews from Europe. What have you been listening to, some hyper anti-EU screeching? Because that is the only way your opinions make sense.


But back to your original point. You claimed the UK can do much better alone - something contradicted by the OP, just talking about the RN ships:

The reluctance of the Royal Navy to buy 'second class' warships seems to set to continue to point where it is that or nothing. Similarly, the reluctance to 'buy American' or (even worse) 'European' off-the- shelf solutions will have to change - the UK and the RN can simply no longer afford to develop expensive and sophisticated naval weapon systems, radars, sonar's, command systems and other electronics that will then be manufactured and deployed in only tiny numbers.

The crux of the matter, according to someone whose credentials I'd rather believe than you, is that:
- British pendant for building ships alone is too expensive to be kept up
- British defence budget does not allow going it alone
- BAE is developing very little bang for the buck
- Britain needs to purchase more foreign stuff to keep the costs down

[Simon_Jester]

A very good point. You get yourself involved in wars you cannot, or do not want to win, and effectively borrow to finance it all, and more to the point you spend a fortune on weapon systems that are not helping you win said war. "Whats the Point" is a very good question, shame people are dying to work it out.

Look, you're getting stupid here.

There are two possibilities. One is that buying expensive weapons is pointless because the only real enemies anyone faces are random lunatics with AK's. Which is transparently ridiculous, because it only works if you have no credible opposition capable of fielding modern weapons, to the point where your sole military contact with the outside world is the occasional optional decision to send a light infantry battalion off as a gesture of goodwill towards Friend of the Week.

The other is that there IS a point to buying expensive weapons. In which case even a tiny dose of common sense would tell you that it makes sense to buy good ones for lower prices, rather than breaking a national defense budget by scrambling to build your own regardless of whether you can afford to pay the R&D costs, or of whether you'll ever build more than five of the damn things.

Which is it?

[Starglider]

France, central to the EU to the point that they consider it a club run by them for their benefit, insists on nearly completely home grown military equipment. Convince France to subscribe to your integrated euro-military plan, and then we can talk about the peripheral UK doing it, not before.

[MKSheppard]

Heck, just a few days ago Merkel awarded a prize to the cartoonist in question.

Five years after he did it -- and after not a few actual murder attempts on the guy's life in question.

Such courage. Such bravery in finally standing up for him five years later.

[Thanas]

Heck, just a few days ago Merkel awarded a prize to the cartoonist in question.

Five years after he did it -- and after not a few actual murder attempts on the guy's life in question.

Such courage. Such bravery in finally standing up for him five years later.

She even stood up for him when the protests were happening. With the result that a Goethe Institute was attacked. So take your untrue argument and shove it.

[Thanas]

France, central to the EU to the point that they consider it a club run by them for their benefit, insists on nearly completely home grown military equipment. Convince France to subscribe to your integrated euro-military plan, and then we can talk about the peripheral UK doing it, not before.

France is already cooperating with other EU members on many projects. The Airbus is just one example.

More importantly, France, unlike the UK, has plenty of export markets and is succesfully exporting their stuff.

[Pelranius]

More importantly, France, unlike the UK, has plenty of export markets and is succesfully exporting their stuff.

Well, as an aside, French military exports aren't doing too great recently. The Rafale can't find a buyer and they have a lot of competition in the frigate, submarine and tank market segments.

[Simon_Jester]

Heck, just a few days ago Merkel awarded a prize to the cartoonist in question.

Five years after he did it -- and after not a few actual murder attempts on the guy's life in question.

Such courage. Such bravery in finally standing up for him five years later.

It is not an act of bravery.

It is also not an act of cowardice. It would be trivially easy to not give the award at all. No one would condemn her for doing nothing on this. If Merkel were that frightened of Muslim reactions, she would just not have given him the award.

So while she may not be Heroically Defying the EVIL MUSLIMS, she's damn sure not cowering from them in her own country.