NYPD officer refuses to obey quotas, put in psych ward

[Cycloneman]

NYPD Officer Adrian Schoolcraft began secretly recording his day-to-day work in the police force. He was given quotas by superiors and they tried to punish him for failing to meet them. This goes on for a while until he leaves work early one day because he is feeling ill. Then a large number of police officers come to his house and take him (against his will) to Jamaica hospital... and the psych ward.

Unluckily for them, he catches it all on tape.

First he gives his story to the Village Voice, then (months later/about two weeks ago) he appears on This American Life (17 minutes in).

Thoughts?

[Shroom Man 777]

C. Dominus Atheos Cycloneman doesn't understand the concept of anecdotal evidence and the uselessness thereof.



I am glad that he was able to record this on tape. If he didn't have a handy camera to record these police abuses, people might not actually believe him and he may not have had enough evidence to prove himself. The cops having arrest quotas, and putting dissidents in mental hospitals?

Why, if this weren't somehow substantiated, someone might think that this was just tabloid journalism full of anecdotal evidence, that this would be pointless and would just give people excuses to distrust the cops and give them negative mentality and encourage them to break the rules so they can go "fuck the po-lice."



I am making fun of Ryan Thunder, guise

[Edi]

Jesus Fucking Christ! That's just absolutely unbelievable!

Here, they have investigated entire departments for 1 tenth of a percent of the shit that the full Village Voice article describes. If they had evidence, they would fire the entire fucking department from the police chief to the lowliest beat cop and put in new people. Heads would probably roll at the Ministry of the Interior too.

Finland actually has a huge number of unemployed police officers because of tight budgets and quotas on hiring/positions. Replacing a crooked cop is as easy as snapping your fingers if there is the evidence to convict him.

This article at least doesn't do any favors to the image of American police forces abroad, nor probably among Americans themselves.

[Broomstick]

Those of us who live or have lived in jurisdictions with notoriously corrupt police departments (such as NYC or Chicago) are no longer surprised by such tales.

Over the past 10 years or so a lot of people in the greater Chicago area have gone to jail for corruption, including some high level police and politicians. The problem is, the corruption has been entrenched for so long it will be a generation or two to get rid of it.

[Thanas]

Holy crap.

One more reason to think that American police are utterly unlike european counterparts when it comes to competency, fairness and obeying the law. And before people start complaining - tell me, have you ever heard of such a story in, say Germany, and the people getting off scot free or nothing being done about it? There just comes a point when the collection of incidences of police misconduct is large enough to cast suspicion on the police forces as a whole and I think now we are past this point.

I certainly shall never trust an American cop the same way I shall trust a European policeman. This is not a slight against any members of this board who I think do a fair job, but stuff like this makes me pretty weary of US police in general.

[Broomstick]

Yes, well, there are REASONS Americans are suspicious and distrusting of certain of our institutions, like police and other government agencies.

[Aaron]

NYPD's at any rate. It would certainly be...assholish to tar Seattle's (for example) because of this.

[Serafina]

On another note:
What the hell is wrong with that hospital/their psych ward?
Seriously, if someone gets send there by the police (or someone else) and not on their own free will, they have to get checked ASAP to make sure that they actually belong there. If they are not clearly mentally unstable (and no, being drugged doesn't count), you move them into an open unit - where you can leave if you want to.

So really - even if the cops drag him there and send him into a closed ward/secure unit/crisis stabilization ward (geschlossene Abteilung in german), the staff should have recognized that he is mentally stable and thus doesn't belong there and he would have been free to go.
And here i thought the times where people were held in such facilities without a good reason were over. Seriously, if your psychological wards operate like that, you are about 15 years behind (at least) and got a serious problem there as well.

For those who don't know much about psychiatric wards: There are two rough categories: One where you are not allowed to leave the ward and have severely restricted freedoms - those wards are "closed"/"secure". They are for patients who are mentally instable and a severe danger to themselves or others, and thus they actually are there against their will quite often. Of course, this has to be well justified - at least around here, a doctor can get into severe trouble if he detains a patient like that who is not endangering anyone.
But there are also open wards. There are degrees for that openness (say, you have to be there at certain times, like during your psychiatric sessions; or you can only leave during the weekends or with another person). Generally, you are there because you want to and if you want to leave permanently, no one has the right to hold you there.
As i said, the hospital staff should have checked if that policeman actually belongs into a closed ward within about 24 hours, and they should have recognized that he is mentally stable and thus does not belong there.

[Broomstick]

Chicago's, too - they just had a conviction on a former big shot police guy who, apparently, spent a decade or two torturing suspects into confessing. At least some of those convicted by this shit have been set free, but it doesn't give them back 15 or 20 years of their lives.

Oh, and Friday the mayor of East Chicago was convicted on Federal charges and will be going to jail.

Lots of rot in government around here, unfortunately.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Holy crap.

One more reason to think that American police are utterly unlike european counterparts when it comes to competency, fairness and obeying the law.

That's probably because our country never seriously acted on any kind of check on the acquisition of power by people whose only purpose in life seems to be reveling (or worse, PROFITING!!!) in the unjust suffering of others of a "lower class", innocent and guilty alike. Don't get me wrong: the Constitution was a fair crack at such a device. It appears these checks-and-balances things wear out after a time until they get rebuilt and oiled by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

And before people start complaining - tell me, have you ever heard of such a story in, say Germany, and the people getting off scot free or nothing being done about it?

Not since that little incident with the weird guy with the tiny mustache and huge army of tanks.

There just comes a point when the collection of incidences of police misconduct is large enough to cast suspicion on the police forces as a whole and I think now we are past this point.

I've lived in New Orleans all my life until Katrina whacked it. I've never trusted the cops. Shit like arrest quotas is just par for the course. Gotta keep the prison industry CEOs in clover so they can buy that seventh house in the Bahamas...

I certainly shall never trust an American cop the same way I shall trust a European policeman. This is not a slight against any members of this board who I think do a fair job, but stuff like this makes me pretty weary of US police in general.

See above. America has become a systematic machine designed to divert everyone's wealth to the top one percent and cause suffering for everyone else. People tend to say or pay anything to make the pain stop. Capitalism by Torture.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Jesus Fucking Christ! That's just absolutely unbelievable!

Here, they have investigated entire departments for 1 tenth of a percent of the shit that the full Village Voice article describes. If they had evidence, they would fire the entire fucking department from the police chief to the lowliest beat cop and put in new people. Heads would probably roll at the Ministry of the Interior too.

So, in your country you would fire someone not guilty of anything besides being employed under that chain of command? I understand the emotional drive behind that, but I can't get behind it. Each officer should be investigated and should receive a fair disposition.

Finland actually has a huge number of unemployed police officers because of tight budgets and quotas on hiring/positions. Replacing a crooked cop is as easy as snapping your fingers if there is the evidence to convict him.

The same is pretty much true for the US.

This article at least doesn't do any favors to the image of American police forces abroad, nor probably among Americans themselves.

Stories which protray a positive image are rarely circulated, easily forgotten, or just dismissed because they don't generate ratings.

[Kamakazie Sith]

On another note:
What the hell is wrong with that hospital/their psych ward?
Seriously, if someone gets send there by the police (or someone else) and not on their own free will, they have to get checked ASAP to make sure that they actually belong there. If they are not clearly mentally unstable (and no, being drugged doesn't count), you move them into an open unit - where you can leave if you want to.

Same is true in the US. So, that should make you question whether or not we're receiving the whole story. Of course, even if this guy was actually a danger to himself or others doesn't in any manner damage the evidence he's recorded.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Holy crap.

One more reason to think that American police are utterly unlike european counterparts when it comes to competency, fairness and obeying the law. And before people start complaining - tell me, have you ever heard of such a story in, say Germany, and the people getting off scot free or nothing being done about it? There just comes a point when the collection of incidences of police misconduct is large enough to cast suspicion on the police forces as a whole and I think now we are past this point.

Honestly? I haven't heard anything regarding German police good or bad. Not exactly a top news item. Though that's probably a good thing because like i've said before good news is boring news when it comes to police. Also, who said these people are getting off scot free?

I certainly shall never trust an American cop the same way I shall trust a European policeman. This is not a slight against any members of this board who I think do a fair job, but stuff like this makes me pretty weary of US police in general.

That's understandable, but in my opinion a lot of you have been swooped up by media generated hysteria. This is actually one of the very few threads posted here that actually contained evidence regarding police corruption. The other threads have mostly been composed of one sided accounts, and then the police interpretation is dismissed as "blue wall" covering again without evidence.

[Serafina]

So, in your country you would fire someone not guilty of anything besides being employed under that chain of command? I understand the emotional drive behind that, but I can't get behind it. Each officer should be investigated and should receive a fair disposition.

Actually, that makes sense. If your superiors violate the law, you are supposed to report it, especially as a police officer who is supposed to uphold the law.
Thus, you are not only somewhat of an accomplice with your silence, you also failed to do your duty.

Same is true in the US. So, that should make you question whether or not we're receiving the whole story. Of course, even if this guy was actually a danger to himself or others doesn't in any manner damage the evidence he's recorded.

Well, i see several possibilities here:
-The police was threatening the hospital staff in order to keep him there
-The hospital was otherwise cooperating with the police
-The staff was incompetent and assumed that, since the police brought him there, he belongs there
-He was actually not held in the closed ward, just brought there and then checked on like it's supposed to happen

Which one is actually true (or a combination of those), that question needs further information to answer.

[Edi]

Jesus Fucking Christ! That's just absolutely unbelievable!

Here, they have investigated entire departments for 1 tenth of a percent of the shit that the full Village Voice article describes. If they had evidence, they would fire the entire fucking department from the police chief to the lowliest beat cop and put in new people. Heads would probably roll at the Ministry of the Interior too.

So, in your country you would fire someone not guilty of anything besides being employed under that chain of command? I understand the emotional drive behind that, but I can't get behind it. Each officer should be investigated and should receive a fair disposition.

If that person actually followed those illegal orders, they'd be in deep shit. Of course every officer would be investigated separately, but the kind of pervasive wrongdoing described in those whistleblower tapes would see more fired than would be retained. Many would be convicted of felony crimes to boot.

I don't know how strict things are in the US and how it varies state by state, but police officers in Finland have an elevated responsibility to act within the bounds of the law. A felony conviction is an automatic end of career practically. Take DUI for example, we've had more than one high ranking police officer fired down the years for a DUI (a regular one, not even the elevated DUI), never mind something more serious.

They don't have an absolute zero tolerance approach to everything, but they do keep things well in hand.

Finland actually has a huge number of unemployed police officers because of tight budgets and quotas on hiring/positions. Replacing a crooked cop is as easy as snapping your fingers if there is the evidence to convict him.

The same is pretty much true for the US.

Yet does that sort of thing act as a deterrent against lawbreaking? How aggressively are crooked cops investigated, convicted and tossed out? If that does not happen, and it seems that in the case of the article this thread is discussing, it's not happening even a little bit, then there is no deterrent and it means nothing.

This article at least doesn't do any favors to the image of American police forces abroad, nor probably among Americans themselves.

Stories which portray a positive image are rarely circulated, easily forgotten, or just dismissed because they don't generate ratings.

Don't know about that.

Finnish media has actually quite a few news stories about how this, that or the other crime was investigated, so and so many people were apprehended and otehr kinds of things, so people are aware that the police are doing their jobs. We expect competence and excellence from them and police actually rate as the #1 or #2 trusted profession here. That's indicative of something.

How is it over there? Things like this, the whole police department of a multimillion population city riddled with what looks like an internal mafia out to bust citizens by hook or by crook, can't imagine things are quite in the same situation.

[Vendetta]

How is it over there? Things like this, the whole police department of a multimillion population city riddled with what looks like an internal mafia out to bust citizens by hook or by crook, can't imagine things are quite in the same situation.

It sounds to me rather more like the NYPD is riddled with petty mismanagement responding to political pressure, the force has to be seen to be doing something, and the crime stats have to look right, and thereby does the precinct justify it's budget for next year, so officers are told to bust a certain quota of crooks, no matter how many cases meriting arrest they might actually encounter.

It's not that they're "out to bust citizens", they don't give a damn about citizens, the people responsible for this cultural environment probably never meet an actual citizen in a professional capacity, they're out to make the stats look right. I've worked in a stats obsessed office before, and it's a really good way to ensure that the actual job that's meant to be getting done goes in the shitter really quickly.

The only surprising thing is the level of toxicity evident in their treatment of an officer who wasn't willing to toe the line. I expect there are a lot of places where he'd just wake up fired one day with scant reason (or simply be told that not meeting his quota was grounds enough for firing).

[Alphawolf55]

It's not just they need to do a certain amount of arrest, they are being actively ordered to ignore crimes as well. Every Police commissioner in NYC wants to claim they're lowering crime, so there's a real incentive to make tons of low level arrest to justify budgets, but refuse to report higher crimes so as to appear to actually fixing the problem.

Also there's the fact that the police in these areas really don't see the citizens as people, remember one of the higher ups was quoted as saying about individuals in the bed stuy area, "If people refuse to get off the sidewalk at a certain time and claim to live there, do it anyways. We own these streets, they may live there but they belong to us"

[stormthebeaches]

How is it over there? Things like this, the whole police department of a multimillion population city riddled with what looks like an internal mafia out to bust citizens by hook or by crook, can't imagine things are quite in the same situation.

It wasn't the whole NYPD. It was one precinct.

[Cycloneman]

Same is true in the US. So, that should make you question whether or not we're receiving the whole story. Of course, even if this guy was actually a danger to himself or others doesn't in any manner damage the evidence he's recorded.

Click the second link. In the NPR interview there is an audio tape of him being sent to the hospital in cuffs, and what exactly caused that to occur (it is not erratic behavior).

[bobalot]

Looks like New York needs something like New South Wale's version of the Wood's Royal Commission to clear out the police force of corrupt police officers.

The Fitzgerald Inquiry in Queensland brought down the state government of the corrupt Joh Bjelke-Petersen.

If you keep doing the same thing, all you will get is the same old bullshit excuses:

"It's only a small minority"
"You don't hear all the good things, you only hear the bad"
"It's only a few individuals, you have to arrest them"

No-one in the police in NSW or Queensland ever admitted there was a systematic problem until their forces were thoroughly rooted out of corruption.

[Broomstick]

I don't know how strict things are in the US and how it varies state by state, but police officers in Finland have an elevated responsibility to act within the bounds of the law. A felony conviction is an automatic end of career practically.

In the US a felony conviction ends any type of career in "criminal justice", including police officer. That is one of the few universal statements you can make about law enforcement in the US.

However, there may be some things that are a felony in Europe that are not so in the US and vice versa.

Finland actually has a huge number of unemployed police officers because of tight budgets and quotas on hiring/positions. Replacing a crooked cop is as easy as snapping your fingers if there is the evidence to convict him.

The same is pretty much true for the US.

Yet does that sort of thing act as a deterrent against lawbreaking? How aggressively are crooked cops investigated, convicted and tossed out? If that does not happen, and it seems that in the case of the article this thread is discussing, it's not happening even a little bit, then there is no deterrent and it means nothing.[/quote]
It varies from one jurisdiction to another. Some police forces are well run and root out corruption and bad apples, Some do not. The police are locally controlled, and that is the root of the variation.

Roughly speaking, in the US:
"Police" - city/town municipal level.
"Sheriff, deputy" - county level
"State Trooper" - state level, not surprisingly.
"FBI/ATF/etc." - the Federal level of enforcement

The higher up you go, the more consistency there is. Corruption can exist at any level, of course, but local police tend to have more of a reputation of corruption than higher levels. Is that actual fact? I'm not sure. Certainly, the cops in certain cities have a reputation of corruption.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Actually, that makes sense. If your superiors violate the law, you are supposed to report it, especially as a police officer who is supposed to uphold the law.
Thus, you are not only somewhat of an accomplice with your silence, you also failed to do your duty.

Absolutely. I'm not saying it can't make sense. I wanted clarification because as a patrol officer there is a lot that I'm not told, and it would piss me off to be fired because the officers on the east side are being told to do something illegal while the officers on the west side are doing things by the book.

Well, i see several possibilities here:
-The police was threatening the hospital staff in order to keep him there
-The hospital was otherwise cooperating with the police
-The staff was incompetent and assumed that, since the police brought him there, he belongs there
-He was actually not held in the closed ward, just brought there and then checked on like it's supposed to happen

Which one is actually true (or a combination of those), that question needs further information to answer.

Yeah, those are all valid possibilities. Though having worked with hospitals as a cop I can tell you that if we threatened them they would laugh us out of the hospital. Obviously, the other possibility is that things in Utah are much different than in New York, so I don't have the perspective necessary to understand.

[Kamakazie Sith]

If that person actually followed those illegal orders, they'd be in deep shit. Of course every officer would be investigated separately, but the kind of pervasive wrongdoing described in those whistleblower tapes would see more fired than would be retained. Many would be convicted of felony crimes to boot.

I don't know how strict things are in the US and how it varies state by state, but police officers in Finland have an elevated responsibility to act within the bounds of the law. A felony conviction is an automatic end of career practically. Take DUI for example, we've had more than one high ranking police officer fired down the years for a DUI (a regular one, not even the elevated DUI), never mind something more serious.

They don't have an absolute zero tolerance approach to everything, but they do keep things well in hand.

My mistake, Edi. You did actually state that if you had the evidence. I apologize. Yeah, if you have the evidence that an entire department is corrupt then everyone needs to be fired.

As for police in the US. It varies state by state, except for the felony conviction which will always end your career in law enforcement. As for DUIs for the most part it will end your career in the US, along with several other misdemeanors like domestic violence assault. Though I have heard of some departments not firing people that get DUIs.

Yet does that sort of thing act as a deterrent against lawbreaking? How aggressively are crooked cops investigated, convicted and tossed out? If that does not happen, and it seems that in the case of the article this thread is discussing, it's not happening even a little bit, then there is no deterrent and it means nothing.

Yeah, no doubt NYPD has serious problems, but what happens in the NYPD doesn't mean my department is full of corrupt officers which is the implication I get when I read things like "American police aren't trustworthly"

Don't know about that.

Finnish media has actually quite a few news stories about how this, that or the other crime was investigated, so and so many people were apprehended and otehr kinds of things, so people are aware that the police are doing their jobs. We expect competence and excellence from them and police actually rate as the #1 or #2 trusted profession here. That's indicative of something.

How is it over there? Things like this, the whole police department of a multimillion population city riddled with what looks like an internal mafia out to bust citizens by hook or by crook, can't imagine things are quite in the same situation.

I'll agree that how the citizens rate the police is indicative of something. However, I'd say it is a cultural thing. US citizens do not like authority.

[Serafina]

I'll agree that how the citizens rate the police is indicative of something. However, I'd say it is a cultural thing. US citizens do not like authority.

Well, here we have a problem of causality:
Are the cops (apparently) that bad (not all of them, but those like in the OP) because people don't trust them anyway, or do people don't trust them because they are so bad?

The answer is probably "both" - your culture influences how your police works, and that can reinforce how people perceive the police, which in turn affects their work.

Absolutely. I'm not saying it can't make sense. I wanted clarification because as a patrol officer there is a lot that I'm not told, and it would piss me off to be fired because the officers on the east side are being told to do something illegal while the officers on the west side are doing things by the book.

Well, i am not saying that you should fire entire departments all the time.
But i think beyond some point of corruption/law violations it's reasonable to assume that everyone in the department IS involved and corrupted, so it's just safer to start new. That's clearly not the case when some guy in the department screws up. It's not necessarily the case when the boss makes illegal deals which the others don't notice.
But when you have something like this where everyone knew and where most people had a part in it, then yes - you have to rip the department apart somehow. Which should include a deep inquiry on every cop from that department - those who are not all that bad should still be separated into new departments.

Something like that is also a matter of public trust. If people see that the whole department was corrupt, then they will not be satisfied if it stays mostly the same and only some people are fired. They might be able to accept that Joe, the small street cop, was not all that bad and that he deserves a second chance - but you have to get rid of the department anyway.

[Aaron]

]Well, i am not saying that you should fire entire departments all the time.
But i think beyond some point of corruption/law violations it's reasonable to assume that everyone in the department IS involved and corrupted, so it's just safer to start new. That's clearly not the case when some guy in the department screws up. It's not necessarily the case when the boss makes illegal deals which the others don't notice.
But when you have something like this where everyone knew and where most people had a part in it, then yes - you have to rip the department apart somehow. Which should include a deep inquiry on every cop from that department - those who are not all that bad should still be separated into new departments.

Something like that is also a matter of public trust. If people see that the whole department was corrupt, then they will not be satisfied if it stays mostly the same and only some people are fired. They might be able to accept that Joe, the small street cop, was not all that bad and that he deserves a second chance - but you have to get rid of the department anyway.

Just to clarify, are you talking about firing the over 35,000 officers in the NYPD or the officers at the precinct in the article?