A question on sword shape and strength

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Stuart
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Stuart »

Spoonist wrote: So far I've seen a dozen such events. Two in the US, two british, one italian and the rest in scandinavia. What is obvious common theme to most of them is counter-playing on the audience's prejudice. First you show a build-up showing whatever the show is about, renaissance/viking/knights/etc. Then as an intermission you invite some poor sod of a bushido wanker with a katana and let him face a weapon he can not defeat. In europe it seemed friendly in the US it looked like they really had no warning beforehand. So you show the inferiority of the katana/bushido to whatever. Then you cut back to whatever the show was about. No chance to show what the katana was good at or which its purpose was or even its context. The effect on the audience is to remove their too high esteem of samurais. But of the ones I've seen, only one in Malmö had a role-reversal where the samurai was set up to "win" in his correct context. So to me its definately culturalism, especially so in the US/britain.
Of course not; that's just showing idiotic oafs up for the purblind fools that they are. We do the same here to religious fundies without anybody calling it "culturalism". I think you're far too keen to see "culturalism" everywhere you look.
Hmm, wasn't the estoc specifically designed for riders/cavalry? Hence its sometimes unwieldlish length. Like for the hussars it was designed so that it could be used as a lance after you lost the real one and as a meele weapon.
No, it was designed as a two-handed sword to open up plate armor (imagine cracking the shell on a lobstertail and you'll get the idea). Use varied across Europe of course and the Polish versions were much longer than those used elsewhere. They were also used as secondary weapons by cavalry but the sword was a characteristic of infantry. Estocs are very hard to use single-handed, their length means they need both hands for stability and that makes them almost impossible to use from horseback.
Also didn't the estoc come before the rapier?
Sort of, (they are seperate lines of development) but that's not relevent. The rapier developed from the Espada Ropera, a Spanish sword for civilian use that marks a bridge between the older slashing swords and the later stabbing weapons. The Espada Ropera is essentially a long sword with a very thin blade that is sharpened on its edges so that it can slash as well as stab. Later, it took in experience with the estoc and the tuck, discarded the slashing function as being useless with such a light blade and concentrated on the stabbing function. Adding in some extra length and Europe got littered with the bodies of people who thought the older slashing swords were still a good idea.
Then I'd just say that a gun beats a lance any day.
And a flamethrower (my favorite weapon for crowd control :twisted: ) beats either. The point is that if we look at the development of the lance by cavalry, we see the same pattern of development that produced the rapier. A switch from a heavy, clumsy weapon to one that is much lighter and more agile. This tends to indicate a widespread pattern of development that was ocurring across Europe.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Stuart »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Wasn't it also true that the British cavalry sabres of the day weren't very good? I've seen an antique of the 1840 American Cavalry sabre (the "Old Wristbreaker") and guy talking about it claimed it came about because the British sabres the Army was using previously were pretty crappy and they wanted something that would, you know, be dangerous to the other guy when the time came. But I believe even that sword was designed for slashing and was replaced by a lighter sword during the Civil War.
The British cavalry sabre was really crappy. It had a brass hilt that got greasy with blood and sweat and would then turn in the hand when taking a really good swing. Not a very good weapon at all. However, that doesn't really affect the fact that the stabbing sabre seriously outperformed the slashing one. THIS article goes into the subject in great detail. It makes the interesting final point that, despite their inferior weapon, the superior swordsmanship of the British cavalrymen tended to decide the issue in their favor. Also, the heavy chopping sword had uses that extended beyond fighting, especially chopping kindling for campfires.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

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Spoonist wrote:
Broomstick wrote:
Bakustra wrote:After all, try swinging a sledgehammer and retaining control of the thing.
Hee hee hee - I've actually tried to do that :)
Have you tried dane/bearded axes or similar? Its crazy, once it gets going it gets going with you not vice versa. I imagine that a sledgehammer is similar?
Well, I've never used a sledge as a weapon, only as a tool, but my initial few minutes with one involved some silly stuff. But yeah, once a sledge gets going it keeps on going.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Spoonist »

Stuart wrote:I think you're far too keen to see "culturalism" everywhere you look.
One instance is hardly "everywhere".
Stuart wrote:Estocs are very hard to use single-handed, their length means they need both hands for stability and that makes them almost impossible to use from horseback.
:wtf:
Wouldn't the same be true for the tournament lance? I've seen etoc-copies used by Polish reenactors on horse as if a lance. You keep it high when riding, at an angle when closing and finally straight when hitting the target.
I don't know the historical accuracy though, but its definately maneagable(sp?).
Stuart wrote:And a flamethrower beats either.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

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mmmm - horsesteak! It's what's for dinner!
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Thanas »

Spoonist wrote:I thought that vikings where still using the bloomery furnace and their forging techniques which they most likely got after the Franks spread it to what is now Denmark. Because of the high grade charcoal and iron from the swe-nor peninsula they could still compete with the weapons from the new catalan forges in continental europe. Until the coming of the blast furnace in Lapphyttan in 1150 after the viking era. Which was probably a result of viking Russia trading with the Mongols directly and bypassing byzans.
Has there been changing archeological evidence for this not to be the case? Or are you refering to the start of the iron age in the m-e?
The vikings were buying swords from the cities on the Rhine as these had high-quality smiths. I am not sure how this is supposed to be news, every decent book about the vikings should mention it.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Spoonist »

Bad mood?

This would be news:
Thanas wrote:Do you know where the vikings got their techniques? They got it from the Rhine, where they used to buy their weapons.
That they bought weapons from the Rhine is no news. That they got their techniques from them and not through a frankish heritage would be to me.
Especially since they continued to buy from them.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Thanas »

Stuart wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Wasn't it also true that the British cavalry sabres of the day weren't very good? I've seen an antique of the 1840 American Cavalry sabre (the "Old Wristbreaker") and guy talking about it claimed it came about because the British sabres the Army was using previously were pretty crappy and they wanted something that would, you know, be dangerous to the other guy when the time came. But I believe even that sword was designed for slashing and was replaced by a lighter sword during the Civil War.
The British cavalry sabre was really crappy. It had a brass hilt that got greasy with blood and sweat and would then turn in the hand when taking a really good swing. Not a very good weapon at all. However, that doesn't really affect the fact that the stabbing sabre seriously outperformed the slashing one. THIS article goes into the subject in great detail. It makes the interesting final point that, despite their inferior weapon, the superior swordsmanship of the British cavalrymen tended to decide the issue in their favor. Also, the heavy chopping sword had uses that extended beyond fighting, especially chopping kindling for campfires.

Are you sure the article claims the sabbing sabre outperformed the slashing one? I just read through it (and I agree with you on principle) and the examples said were different.
It is worthy of remark, that the French cavalry, in nine cases out of ten make use of the point, whereas we strike with the edge, which is, in my humble opinion, far more effective. But, however this may be, of one fact I am quite sure, that as far as appearances can be said to operate in rendering men timid, or the reverse, the wounded among the French were much more revolting than the wounded among ourselves.

Indeed a trend in total opposition to this can be discerned amongst the officer class, namely the great popularity of those eastern (Ottoman or Indo-Persian) curved cutting swords broadly classed as "Mameluke-hilted." These swords were made popular amongst officers, light cavalry officers and senior officers in particular, through the involvement of both the French and British in Egypt, though the longstanding British presence in India cannot but have had an influence as well. It could be argued that the use of these swords was merely a whim of fashion, though logically these swords would not have become popular if their inherent quality had not been recognised. It is also evident that these swords were regularly used in combat by light cavalry officers and, with war being an uncertain occupation, senior officers would hardly have encumbered themselves with merely decorative swords. On occasion even commanders in chief had to resort to drawing their swords.29

It is clear that the oft-quoted contemporary remarks about the superiority of the thrust and of thrusting swords, and the deprecation of the cut, were an expression of opinion of only a section of British cavalry officers and soldiers. Undoubtedly a considerable body of the British military was appreciative of the utility and combat advantages of the cut, and of the worth of swords designed to deliver it.


That said, the French cavalry, especially the lancers, were terrifying anti-cavalry (as the British experienced at Waterloo) especially due to the long length of the lances. I have not heard of one British swordfighter taking on five Frenchmen and killing them all, but the opposite was the case according to British sources.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Thanas »

Spoonist wrote: That they bought weapons from the Rhine is no news. That they got their techniques from them and not through a frankish heritage would be to me.
Especially since they continued to buy from them.

Sorry, but you have lost me here. Both franks and Rhine techniques are interchangeable at this period to my knowledge, as the franks ruled the Rhine.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Spoonist »

Thanas wrote:Both franks and Rhine techniques are interchangeable at this period to my knowledge, as the franks ruled the Rhine.
Since you usually are more read up on these issues than me I thought that I could be a little imprecise and you'd still get me. Sorry.

A little more specified:

I thought that viking forging & techniques where derived from a merovingian heritage. As in not from the Rhine but rather Soissons (sp?).
That their forging & techniques where derived from a carolingian heritage on the Rhine would be news to me.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Thanas »

ARGH.

My apologies, sorry, I finally get what you mean.


Yeah, you are completely correct. The merovingian franks and the smiths on the rhine were using the same techniques since the 600s or so. Those are the swords I mean. I was talking about the trade between the 6-800s, which continued even further.

There is no break between the tradition of the merovingiansand the carolingian age (as both are franks), so I wasn't aware you meant frank only in the carolingian sense.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Stuart »

Thanas wrote: Are you sure the article claims the sabbing sabre outperformed the slashing one? I just read through it (and I agree with you on principle) and the examples said were different.
It contains a mass of information discussing the issue and I don't think it's conclusions are clear-cut. However, it contained such a wealth of information I thought people ought to be aware of it even if it didn't wholly support my case.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Greger »

Stuart wrote:It's worth noting that swords like the katana existed in Europe (cavalry sabres for example). When the rapier arrived, it made them all obsolete. I must admit prejudice here. I love rapiers and estocs, the cold, calculating style of fighting really appeals to my mentality.
As said earlier in the thread, the rapier where mainly a civilian weapon. Most military men utilized the more utilitarian side-sword, which where suited for both cut and thrusts. Rapiers where generaly heavy and slow weapons which over time evolved into the small-sword. The small-sword became the premier dueling sword and a symbol of gentry, officers and nobility whom required not a weapon of war but rather a personal side-arm.
Stuart wrote:The point is that if we look at the development of the lance by cavalry, we see the same pattern of development that produced the rapier. A switch from a heavy, clumsy weapon to one that is much lighter and more agile. This tends to indicate a widespread pattern of development that was ocurring across Europe.
What should be considered about the lance as utilized by the various forms of lancers that appeared during the time of napoleonic wars is that it was intended primeraly as a first strike weapon. When properly employed by a skilled user, the superior reach and speed of the lance in comparison with the saber or other cavalry sword almost always worked in the favour of the soldier so equipped. After the initial clash the lance most often proved cumbersome and unwieldy in the close quarter melee, prompting most lancers to drop there lance in favour of a secondary saber.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

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Greger wrote:What should be considered about the lance as utilized by the various forms of lancers that appeared during the time of napoleonic wars is that it was intended primeraly as a first strike weapon. When properly employed by a skilled user, the superior reach and speed of the lance in comparison with the saber or other cavalry sword almost always worked in the favour of the soldier so equipped. After the initial clash the lance most often proved cumbersome and unwieldy in the close quarter melee, prompting most lancers to drop there lance in favour of a secondary saber.

Not true, sources at Waterloo report polish soldiers using the lance to keep multiple english cavalrymen at bay and even prevailing against multiple enemies due to the longer reach.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by mr friendly guy »

Wow, this thread certainly taught me a lot. Do you guys know of any books which covers what was discussed in this thread about medieval weapons in general. That is what the weapons were used for, forging techniques with a bit of metallurgy knowledge thrown in, length, advantages and disadvantages etc. This certainly is a fascinating topic and I am impressed by the knowledge of posters in this thread.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by open_sketchbook »

Greger wrote:
Stuart wrote:The point is that if we look at the development of the lance by cavalry, we see the same pattern of development that produced the rapier. A switch from a heavy, clumsy weapon to one that is much lighter and more agile. This tends to indicate a widespread pattern of development that was ocurring across Europe.
What should be considered about the lance as utilized by the various forms of lancers that appeared during the time of napoleonic wars is that it was intended primeraly as a first strike weapon. When properly employed by a skilled user, the superior reach and speed of the lance in comparison with the saber or other cavalry sword almost always worked in the favour of the soldier so equipped. After the initial clash the lance most often proved cumbersome and unwieldy in the close quarter melee, prompting most lancers to drop there lance in favour of a secondary saber.
Additionally, lances weren't great for the primary tasks of light calvary in the era, which was chasing down enemy infantry whose ranks were broken (usually because they were fleeing or just generally ill-disciplined while moviing, or else are skirmish troops and artillery crews) and preventing them from reforming/killin' the bastards. A cutting sword is optimal here, as you want to be swinging at them as you move past and the very last thing you want is to get bogged down because you got the point of something stuck in a body. When English horsemen were asking for pointier swords, they were misinterpreting their own role on the battlefield, though of course there were problems aside from that, like how poorly trained British calvary were in comparison to their infantry and the fact they spent half their time chasing better equipped and disciplined dragoons up and down spain instead of fighting in their intended role, creating the impression there was a great deal of calvary against calvary fighting going on when it was really just the French soldiers breaking off and fading over and over.

Lancers were an anachronism by the napoleonic war, still in service not becuase of utility but misconception. Well disciplined infantry would see off calvary with ease, and calvary should have been kept in reserves, but a lot of commanders never realized this and consistantly sent their horses forward to "disrupt the enemy formation", which didn't tend to do much more than get light calvary units tangled up in front of everyone. Lancers were used to kill off horsemen who never should have gone out in the first place and the core of both armies, the infantry, remained untouched, as there was honestly little difference in effect between a lance and a sword against infantry. Smart commanders kept their calvary in reserve and only brought them out to deal with skirmishers regular units couldn't go deal with, chase down fleeing soldiers, and attack artillery crews that had been left open as the enemy formation broke down.

Lancers were superfluous. Their role was to kill of enemies that didn't actually pose much of a threat in the first place, and the only got play because, as Wellington said, "Our officers of cavalry have acquired a trick of galloping at everything. They never consider the situation, never think of manoeuvring before an enemy, and never keep back or provide a reserve." The only place they would actually have a role on the field would be to prevent light calvary from doing their work if the line actually did break down, but at that point the battle is most than likely lost anyway.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by LaCroix »

Calling a Rapier a heavy and slow weapon is a slap into the face of all know about swords.

A Rapier is 2.5 lbs in weight and about 42 inches long - the smallsword is 32 inches in length and weights 1-1.5 pound.
Is a Rapier heavier than a smallsword? Yes. Is it heavy in comparison to a 'normal' sword? No.
I the rapier quicker than a smallsword? No. Is it quicker than a 'normal' sword? Hell, YES!

The rapier was a weapon that was devised to defeat a cutting sword - It excelled in this role. It still had a useful cutting edge and was strong enough to even parry a slashing attack, as you would have to do this occasionally when attacked.

Later, when the Rapier had become the primary weapon outside of military use, the Rapier evolved into something that fencers started calling an 'estoc' rather than a sword (fun fact, the name 'Rapier' wasn't even know to the users, they just called it a 'sword'), as it lost the cutting edge and was a smaller version of the military estoc. This was due to the fact that slash-fencing had nearly died out, and therefore, a cutting edge wasn't needed anymore.

Still, a 42 inch weapon was a bit unwieldy, and slowly was replaced by the shorter smallsword (introduced in the mid of 17th century, and gaining ground by the turn to 18th )

Cavalry weapons were always a flowing thing, depending on unit. Cuirassiers wore armor and had Pallash swords (straight&heavy) They went into melee fights, where a good stab was essential, while their breast plates protected them well.
Dragoons were something like their step-siblings, same role, same sword, but no armor...

Hussars usually had slightly curved weapons, as they were charging through the enemy, slashing all they could reach, regroup and charge again - they usually did only enter melee when pressed.

Lanciers/Ulahns were using lances, keeping people at bay with the longer reach, and for devastating charges. They had curved sabers as backup weapon, for they were more effective in charges.

As always, the weapon was different depending the role of the unit.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

LaCroix wrote:
Later, when the Rapier had become the primary weapon outside of military use, the Rapier evolved into something that fencers started calling an 'estoc' rather than a sword (fun fact, the name 'Rapier' wasn't even know to the users, they just called it a 'sword'), as it lost the cutting edge and was a smaller version of the military estoc. This was due to the fact that slash-fencing had nearly died out, and therefore, a cutting edge wasn't needed anymore.
Apparently the name "rapier" was used by only in English and not in any continental languages. The etymology is probably from Spanish espada ropera like Stuart wrote, although there seems to be no certainty of that, either.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Thanas »

open_sketchbook wrote:Lancers were an anachronism by the napoleonic war, still in service not becuase of utility but misconception. Well disciplined infantry would see off calvary with ease, and calvary should have been kept in reserves, but a lot of commanders never realized this and consistantly sent their horses forward to "disrupt the enemy formation", which didn't tend to do much more than get light calvary units tangled up in front of everyone. Lancers were used to kill off horsemen who never should have gone out in the first place and the core of both armies, the infantry, remained untouched, as there was honestly little difference in effect between a lance and a sword against infantry. Smart commanders kept their calvary in reserve and only brought them out to deal with skirmishers regular units couldn't go deal with, chase down fleeing soldiers, and attack artillery crews that had been left open as the enemy formation broke down.
Have you ever read about 19th century cavalry? If you think lancers were superfluous, please explain why every army that could afford to field them did (most often in combination with saber cavalry in the rear ranks btw). Every statement of cavalry officers who saw them in action describe the great superiority of the lance against the sword in cavalry fighting. There is also a reason why light Prussian cavalry was still equipped with lances until the 1900s - it allowed them to fight other skirmish cavalry - until being supplanted by firearms.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Thanas wrote: Have you ever read about 19th century cavalry? If you think lancers were superfluous, please explain why every army that could afford to field them did (most often in combination with saber cavalry in the rear ranks btw). Every statement of cavalry officers who saw them in action describe the great superiority of the lance against the sword in cavalry fighting.


That really just point's at how profoundly dumb European military leadership was, not any utility of the lance. The French still had troops armed exclusively with lances in 1914, this cannot be justified on any rational grounds. In the entire Franco Prussian War only one cavalry charge could be called successful, due to some terrain features that allowed the charge to be launched from 150 meters range. That one charge was then used to justify keeping whole corps of horsemen around, even though numerous other charges had been shot to pieces with single shot rifles. The fact is massed cavalry lasted way longer then it should have and this was purely a product of military conservatism and elitism. Cavalry officers ran most armies and didn’t give a damn that the cavalry had not only lost its overall effectiveness, they also cost far more man per man then infantry. Its no different then the Royal Navy dumping training ammo over the side rather then risk damage to the paintwork, as proper paintwork was required to have any hope of promotion.

I mean… you really think everyone was thinking highly rationally in military planning in the lead up to 1914? We've got plenty of other examples of generals and admirals refusing to accept change never mind the massed rank tactics that kept being used well into the war and saw men chopped down in neat rows.
There is also a reason why light Prussian cavalry was still equipped with lances until the 1900s - it allowed them to fight other skirmish cavalry - until being supplanted by firearms.
That was to allow them to fight while mounted. But that does not prove that fighting mounted still made any sense, particularly after the Boer War. The Boers certainly showed that dismounting and mowing down the enemy troops mounted or not with a machine gun and magazine rifles would be far more effective. Plenty of people at the time saw this too and knew the horse was doomed , but the generals refused to listen even after the war had killed a million men. The British still had five cavalry divisions massed in 1916 to support the Somme attack... really brilliant use of resources. Too bad horses can't cross trenches.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

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Eh Skimmer...what are you trying to say here? The discussion is about the utility of a lance in cavalry fights and whether it was superior in a fight or not. If you want to argue about the usefulness of cavalry in general, by all means, but I am not arguing for a role of cavalry in general, just that they made more sense as anti-cavalry forces per se and that in the context of 1815 and beyond, it made sense to have lancers as mounted anti-cavalry forces rather than purely saber-equipped cavalry.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

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Thanas wrote:Eh Skimmer...what are you trying to say here? The discussion is about the utility of a lance in cavalry fights and whether it was superior in a fight or not. If you want to argue about the usefulness of cavalry in general, by all means, but I am not arguing for a role of cavalry in general, just that they made more sense as anti-cavalry forces per se and that in the context of 1815 and beyond, it made sense to have lancers as mounted anti-cavalry forces rather than purely saber-equipped cavalry.
Well I don’t agree with that, and your German example doesn't work since Uhlan's had a carbine, lance, saber and in some cases a pistol too by the end of the 19th century. Its not just lance vs. saber going on.

The short-medium distance mobility advantages of the horse had advantages for its price, marching infantry will beat horses over long distances, but fighting mounted was suicide. To use a lance you need to fight mounted against a cooperative enemy, one who will willingly charge at you at the same time and this is assuming a great deal of stupidly staying in motion already. The Germans had about the lightest lance around but it was still 1.6kg, enough for a considerable increase in rifle ammunition. That ammo is going to be way more effective then the lance ever could be, even in idealized pro cavalry situations. Ergo the lance is not only superfluous; it is actively detrimental to combat effectiveness. You only need seconds to dismount, aim and rifle and its well possible to aim a rifle while still mounted, if stationary, anyway. All the time spent training to use a lance could have gone into that.

There really can't be any doubt that cavalry with just carbines or rifles and as much ammo as possible are going to beat any combination of enemy horsemen with edged weapons AND rifles but less ammo in nearly any possible situation. This was known at the time, the generals just didn't listen and openly denied the results of actual combat.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

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Sea Skimmer wrote:There really can't be any doubt that cavalry with just carbines or rifles and as much ammo as possible are going to beat any combination of enemy horsemen with edged weapons AND rifles but less ammo in nearly any possible situation. This was known at the time, the generals just didn't listen and openly denied the results of actual combat.
You are still arguing against something I never claimed. This whole thing is sabre vs lance, sabre and lance alone, not sabre vs lance vs carbine.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

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Thanas wrote: You are still arguing against something I never claimed. This whole thing is sabre vs lance, sabre and lance alone, not sabre vs lance vs carbine.
You damn well claimed that simply because the lance persisted, it must have had value. I am saying that’s a load of bullocks for numerous reasons related to the inbred stupidity that was allowed to rule Europe up until 1918. You cannot just ignore rifles or anything else if you want to make an argument on that basis. Its cherry picking with no meaning.
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Re: A question on sword shape and strength

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Sea Skimmer wrote:
Thanas wrote: You are still arguing against something I never claimed. This whole thing is sabre vs lance, sabre and lance alone, not sabre vs lance vs carbine.
You damn well claimed that simply because the lance persisted, it must have had value. I am saying that’s a load of bullocks for numerous reasons related to the inbred stupidity that was allowed to rule Europe up until 1918. You cannot just ignore rifles or anything else if you want to make an argument on that basis. Its cherry picking with no meaning.

I thought is would have been pretty certain from the context of this very thread what I was talking about, especially as I also said firearms are superior. You really think I claimed a lance was of more use than a repeating carbine? How stupid do you think I am? :lol:
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