Does anyone play the Dark Eldar?

[Einzige]

Preface: I have never so much as looked upon a game of Warhammer 40,000, and know relatively little about either its game mechanics or its fluff. Hell, I wouldn't know where to begin.

That said, I think I'd like to get into it, and having done a very general survey of the setting, I feel that the Dark Eldar suit me best from a purely aesthetic standpoint. That said, I know next to nothing about them, and they seem like one of the least popular factions to play as. Is there anything I ought to know before I spend my money on a set? Are there any nuances to using the Dark Eldar that a beginning player ought to keep in mind?

[Agent Sorchus]

Dark Eldar are fragile, very very fragile. But they are fast, and they can deal more damage than most any group that isn't Artillery heavy Imperial Guard. Those three facts mean that you have to be in control of the game from the first movement step. That is why they are not considered a starting army. That isn't to say that they aren't a very good army, oh no, just one that isn't forgiving. The only unit the army has that is very very forgiving is the Archon. With a good kit and a retinue he can take any unit in the game (maybe not the blood angels special characters, or some other blood angels close combat units).

As a beginning player, trust in dark lances and the Raider. Bring Incubi with your Archon and don't skimp on Wargear here. Otherwise spam Warriors and dark Lances with the occasional other special weapon. Other than that you can experiment, most units are worth their points even though the Codex is very old.

BUT: there are rumors that the Dark Eldar are being reworked for release around November of this year. Nothing is concrete yet because GW doesn't let the rumors get very far ahead of the release schedule. Expect news of this to come latter this month.

[Einzige]

Interesting. So they are, to use the parlance I've picked up on from various forums, 'shooty', as opposed to CQC-oriented? Bear in mind that I have almost no knowledge of the game mechanics of WH40k; I intend to devote a pretty good amount of my free-time to doing nothing more than going over those mechanics privately before I even consider competitive play. But if my inference from your description is correct, then that suits me, as I've played other strategy games using similar tactics before.

[Agent Sorchus]

They are both shooty and cc oriented, specific units for specific things. Basically if you can give a unit Dark Lances it is shooty, otherwise it is cc. In reality Dark Eldar are neither shooty or cc, they are fast. Speed. Destroy the tanks and pile on the wyches. See a heavy hard to kill cc unit? fire a bunch dark Lances at it. You have to be aggressive in controlling the game but conservative when pressed by a nastier unit.

The Dark Eldar are extreme in that individual units excel in a niche role, but suffer in any other. Just stay away from Scourges and Hellions, they are just horrible units.

[Serafina]

Use your speed, use your cover, use your strenghts, use their weaknesses and choose your battles.

Dark Eldar are the ultimate hit&run army. They have almost no unit that can stand a prolonged CQC or take much fire. They have no units that can break trough the core of an enemy army.
What they CAN do is evade the dangerous parts of the enemy army and rip out it's heart. If you play it right, you can pick&destroy any unit you want, be it a tank, commander, heavy weapons squac or anything else.

You have to watch out for a couple of things tough, and right now you have little to deal with it:
-Massive armies. Against an IG army with 120+ soldiers, you nearly can't win - there are just too many. Your only hope is outmaneuvering them. Similar things can happen with Orks and Tyranids.
-Artillery. Unless it has a long minimum range, you can't evade it with cover. Destroy it ASAP.
-Fast enemies. If it can catch you, it's trouble. That applies to all fast skimmers and bikes/jetbikes, such as Necron Destructors, Eldar tanks&jetbikes, IG Valkyries, SM Land Speeders. Bring them down soon or they can disrupt your plans.

If played right, you can toy with your enemies army - kill things at will, direct his movements and be a shade he can not catch. I have seen Dark Eldar players finish off games with no casualties - and nearly none on the enemies side, yet they still won. But i have also seen Dark Eldar players loosing three quarters of their army in one turn because they were catched off guard.
To play Dark Eldar, you need to be good and smart - you have to know your enemy and predict his moves. If you just overlook one line of fire, one piece of artilery or you underestamiate him in CQC - then you will likely loose a squad.

Just keep this in mind: Fast and fragile. Fast and fragile. Fast and fragile. Fast and fragile. Fast and....

[open_sketchbook]

A good bet is to take some small super-fast units (jetbikes etc) and dive it facefirst into anything with a big gun(s), like devistator squads. Squad-based heavy weapons can turn you into hamburger meat way too quickly, so you want to be on them immediately with whatever you can.

Typically speaking, you'll want to shoot it if there aren't very many of them and assault them if there are, because the Dark Eldar do not tend to get many shots from safe distances (usually, none at all) Don't waste your shots on blobs; focus your firepower on vehicles, characters and guns. Your solution to blobs (or indeed, any regular (scoring) infantry unit) is wyches in raiders; one or two big squads of Wyches will drop enough attacks from a charge to eviserate whole ork mobs or full size platoons and they can fly in from far enough away to do it with little risk of shooting. Because they nearly always hit first, they can turn deadly combat units into hamburger and take almost nothing in return. Absolute priority targets for shooting if you are doing this are big characters, combat vehicles and monsterous creatures, to keep your Wyches safely tucked away in the soft underbelly of the enemy army.

Because you can bring force to bear on specific targets like no other army, you can win many games just by killing, routing or tying up every scoring unit while more or less ignoring everything else, waiting till the last turns to grab objectives yourself.

The most important thing in your arsenal is the Raider; it's cheap, fast and open-topped, and carries another vital dark lance. A straightforward cheese build consists of little more than warriors as dark lance carriers, wyches, and raiders.

[Terralthra]

Dark Eldar are even more finesse-heavy and composition (meta-game) dependent than Eldar, and that is saying something.

[Sinewmire]

The bad thing about Dark Eldar is that they're a very dated army. The Codex was published in 1998, with a different edition of the core rules in mind, and there have been very few model releases since then. Whilst a few of the models do stand the test of time (I particularly like the Drazhar model) many of them do suffer from lack of updating, and gameplay has changed a great deal, with more emphasis on boots on the ground, and a step back towards Hero and Psychic heavy armies. Whilst there are continual rumours of a Dark Eldar re-release, there have been rumours for years, now. I think the Tyranids have had 2 codices since the Dark Eldar 3rd edition?

I can't give detailed tactics as I don't play Dark Eldar, and have no plan to do so.

I *do* have a glorious memory, in the previous edition, of seeing off a squadron of Dark Eldar Jetbike Wyches with two tactical marines, the Sergeant killing two whilst his battle-brother was slain, watching the squad fail their break test, and watching my Sergeant on foot running down the entire squad and slaughtering them. Wonderful wonderful days.

[The Jester]

I haven't played since 3rd edition, but have nearly 2000 points of Dark Eldar collecting dust. They were ridiculous during 3rd edition since their heavy/special weapons were so cheap and you could upgrade two of each per squad or take a Raider, which was dirt cheap weapons platform with more durability that what appeared on paper (due to the skimmer rules).

I remember just trying to field as many warriors with cheap heavy weapons as I could muster without being too min/maxed plus multiple raiders. I didn't bother with Incubi as dedicated hand-to-hand just got in the way of shooting stuff, so I used the HQ to field more Warriors, Splinter Canons and another Raider. Used a single Talos to counter-attack/ward off any close combat unit that did approach/assault my lines. No Wyches for the same reason as no Incubi. I did field Mandrakes though, because they were extremely good at messing up opposing lines by tying units into an assault. Against Marines/Chaos they were so-so, but against anyone else, they felt almost broken since they could cause so much disruption for cheap with no way to really stop them.

Not sure how the armies work out now due to rules changes, and it's stupid that GW have gone so long without updating anything for the Dark Eldar (and a million Space Marine updates). Personally, I'd go with a different army if you're just starting out because the support is so poor, but if you do intend to play them, I can say the Warrior squads were hideously effective due to the cheap heavy weapon and Raider upgrades. Now? I don't know because the rules have changes and the style of play may be too different from 3rd, but if others can confirm that there isn't that much practical difference since then, then you can't go wrong with plunking down 70+ Warriors, several Raiders, maybe a Ravager and a Talos on the table.

[open_sketchbook]

You can't ignore close combat in 5th. The combat rules have changed to favor units that drop lots of attacks, which pushed wyches to the forefront of insanely badass combat units. At the same time, the much greater emphasis on cover has made the Dark Eldar's shooting less effective on scoring units; it's more effective these days to charge an infantry unit than to unload splinter cannons on them. The dark lances is where the goodness is.

[Stravo]

The Dark Eldar codex is supposedly dropping at the end of the year with new models coming out at the beginning of 2011. The guy who worked on the models was on a Games Workshop podcast a month ago really proud of the sculpts he did for those models. One of the pocasts I listen to frequently, 40k Warcasting, has a cohost who owns a gaming story and he was pretty confident of the dates I just outlined.

Also the person writing the Codex is the same one who just did the Imperial Guard codex which many people are holding up as one of the more cheesy ultrapowerful codexes out there so if that is true we may be seeing a real revamping of the DE.

[Agent Sorchus]

GW confirms Dark Eldar as next 40k release. YEah, I am excited.

As for CC in this edition, wyches are very good but the archon with incubi retuine is the only non fragile unit in the army. You can face Abbadon knowing that your odds are decent versus him.

Even though dark eldar have an older codex (until later this year) it only suffers thanks to the lack of variance to it's builds. Unlike most old codexes it isn't over priced and the units basically do what they are supposed to.

SO Einzige I would either pickup a small number of DE for now or I would wait for the new release.

[PainRack]

is it true that Eldar forces generally can't fight large armies on the tabletop?

[Serafina]

is it true that Eldar forces generally can't fight large armies on the tabletop?

Not really.
The major issue here is that Dark Eldar need room for maneuvering. On a standard battlefield against a standard size army (1500 points) that rooms is there. But if you increase the army size without increasing the size of the battlefield, you will create problems for the Dark Eldar.

That's true for pretty much every army that relies on maneuvering (rather than just charging into melee), but since Dark Eldar rely on it so much it tends to hit them harder.
It also works the other way round - a 500-point Dark Eldar army will have more room for maneuvers and can thus be much more dangerous than a 1500-point army on the same battlefield.

[Stravo]

On another forum someone is posting rules chages for the Dark Eldar relayed by people who got to look at the Codex on Games Day. Among some of the rules the interesting thing I noted was that Dark Eldar will get bonuses to the entire army or in some cases units based on the amount of kills they rack up so for example if you kill a certain number of models everyone gets +1` attacks and then when you reach a second level it confers Feel No Pain and so on. Very interesting because it plays towards the Dark Eldar fluff that they revel in inflicting pain and torment and kidnapping people. Very cool.

[Serafina]

Well, that sounds pretty damn broken unless it scales with army size - and even then, if you consider horde vs. elite armies. Then again, Dark Eldar could use a boost against horde armies, so that could be a good thing if done right.

And keep in mind that "i read it on the Games Day" is really not a very reliable source, so that information might be mostly wrong, especially regarding the exact mechanics and effects.

[The Jester]

is it true that Eldar forces generally can't fight large armies on the tabletop?

Things might have changed since 3rd Edition, but I still remember Splinter Cannons being awe-inspiring weapons of mass death. I guess if there's more cover, then it makes a big difference but it was still absurd how quickly you could simply erase units on the table with two assault 4 weapons per squad. It's like if Marines could take two Heavy Bolters in a Tactical squad... But even better.

And keep in mind that "i read it on the Games Day" is really not a very reliable source, so that information might be mostly wrong, especially regarding the exact mechanics and effects.

This is still GW, who have amazingly bad QA processes when it comes to actual game rules. The whole T8 Wraithlord stupidity springs to mind...

[Serafina]

This is still GW, who have amazingly bad QA processes when it comes to actual game rules. The whole T8 Wraithlord stupidity springs to mind...

Actually, it was fairly balanced if one used the right tactics. There wasn't much difference between a Wraithlord and a tank, at least in the edition where it was released. There is a reason they kept the T8 and just reduced the attacks/increased costs.
You can damage a Wraithlord just fine by shooting at it with the right weapons. Against AT-weapons, it's not really more resilient than a tank - a missile launcher has about a 50:50 chance of harming a armor 12 tank - and you need about three hits on average to take it out of the game due to the damage tables. The only difference is that a Wraithlord can't be taken out with a single lucky hit and that it's effectiveness can't be reduced. Generally, a Wraithlord is roughly equivalent to an armor 13 walker, except that it has some additional weaknesses such as sniper rifles, poison and psy weapons.

If you look at win/loss statistics you will find that all up-to-date armies have a ~50:50 win rate against each other. New codices get a slight bump after release which tends to wear off, and codices from previous editions are mostly worse. Tournament winners tend to deviate from that, but that's more due to meta-gaming (current tactics and versatility vs specialization) than army design.

[The Jester]

Actually, it was fairly balanced if one used the right tactics. There wasn't much difference between a Wraithlord and a tank, at least in the edition where it was released. There is a reason they kept the T8 and just reduced the attacks/increased costs.

Probability disagrees with you.

Assume 4 BS4 Missile Launchers/Dark Lances/Bright Lances fire at armour 12 and at a T8 target with 3 Wounds.

At armour 12, the probability of a single S8 weapon destroying the target is 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/2 + 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 7/54
The probability of at least 1 attack out of the four scoring a kill is 1 - (1 - 7/54)^4 = 42.6%

With a T8 W3 targer, your odds of wounding is 2/3 * 1/2 = 1/3
Using the binomial distribution to compute the odds of scoring a various number of wounds from four attacks (where D is the number of wounds inflicted):
p(D=0) = 19.8%
p(D=1) = 39.5%
p(D=2) = 29.6%
p(D>=3) = 11.1%

So the Wraithlord has significantly greater odds of survival against a similar barrage. Also note that there are many other damage results that would decrease the effectiveness of the vehicle target which are not factored into the analysis above. However, unless the Wraithlord is dead, it's still at 100% effectiveness which puts it at an even greater advantage.

Just to compare, suppose a Talos faced a similar attack.
Odds of taking a wound: 2/3 * 2/3 = 4/9
p(D=0) = 9.5%
p(D=1) = 30.4%
p(D=2) = 36.6%
p(D>=3) = 23.4%

Heck even a Talos (or T7 Wraithlord) has much greater survivability.

EDIT: I just ran the math for armour 13 and you get:
2/3 * 1/6 * 1/2 + 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 2/27 odds of destruction from a single attack.
From four you get 1 - (1 - 2/27)^4 = 26.5%

A Talos is tougher than a Leman Russ under such circumstances.

[Serafina]

So you added numbers to what i said. Great, but that doesn't change the validity of what i said.
The point is that you can damage a Wraithlord just like you can damage a tank. Sure, the fact that it has wounds makes it harder to take out. But that's not the general complaint, the general complaint was that it was too hard to damage, which is not true.

You can damage Wraithlords with S6 weapons, which can be available in great numbers (tough they often lack the penetration). Plasma weapons and equivalents melt right trough it. Generally, you treat a Wraithlord like you treat a Hive Tyrant or Great Deamon - lot's of heavy anti-infantry firepower and some anti-tank weapons. Many of these weapons are also usefull against other non-vehicle targets. That's different from heavy vehicles, where you absolutely NEED dedicated anti-vehicle weapons.

Besides, the main problem with the Wraithlord were it's low price and high attacks - the price was fine for the ranged weapons and survivability, but it was way too good for it's price in close combat.

[PainRack]

Glad that I never met an Eldar player then:D So far, all the games I seen so far appears to be Nids, Marines, Guards and Orks.

And nobody ever plays Space Marines without wanking to their endurance, ability for both CC and shooty capabilities. Its a pity that they appears to have removed the double-tap sorta rules where space marines which did not move could shoot twice.....

[Serafina]

Glad that I never met an Eldar player then:D So far, all the games I seen so far appears to be Nids, Marines, Guards and Orks.

And nobody ever plays Space Marines without wanking to their endurance, ability for both CC and shooty capabilities. Its a pity that they appears to have removed the double-tap sorta rules where space marines which did not move could shoot twice.....

As i said, get a bunch of good anti-infantry weapons (what you would use against Marines). People make the error of comparing it against tanks, when it's really more of a super-resilient infantry unit and has to be dealt with as such. Plasma weapons in particular can bring it down quite quickly: You need 9 hits to do so.
And keep in mind that Wraitlords are now more expensive (at least 100 points+weapons) and only have 2 attacks in melee. In combination with the "no retreat"-rule (if it doesn't hit and you have greater numbers), it's no longer that bad in melee.

Most of the resent against it is from the third (and somewhat fourth) edition, where they were cheaper and impossible to bring down in melee for many armies.

[The Jester]

So you added numbers to what i said. Great, but that doesn't change the validity of what i said.

Seriously? This is how you're going to argue when someone starts using mathematics?

The point is that you can damage a Wraithlord just like you can damage a tank. Sure, the fact that it has wounds makes it harder to take out. But that's not the general complaint, the general complaint was that it was too hard to damage, which is not true.

Generally, a Wraithlord is roughly equivalent to an armor 13 walker, except that it has some additional weaknesses such as sniper rifles, poison and psy weapons.

I just showed that this is hideously wrong.

And I was there when the Eldar codex first came out for 3rd edition. I was an active member on Yahoo mailing lists for 40k (before the rise of webforums) when the Eldar codex first came out. I know what the original complaint was. I remember people performing the calculations I just made above. I actually have the White Dwarf containing Gavin Thorpe's explanation of T8 Wraithlords sitting at my parents'. I remember how much it was derided on the net. I remember a Gavin Thorpe interview a year or so after the release of the codex where he complained about how much effort people put into showing just how bad his reasoning was. The complaint was that a T8 W3 Wraithlord was much tougher than an armour 12 vehicle.

You can damage Wraithlords with S6 weapons, which can be available in great numbers (tough they often lack the penetration).

Seriously? What S6 weapons were available in great numbers that going to be optimal for Wraithlord destruction.

Plasma weapons and equivalents melt right trough it.

Bwahahahaa!
Because you're lazy...
Plasma vs armour 12: 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/6 + 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/2 = 2/27
p(D >= 1) = 26.5%

Vs armour 13: 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/54
p(D >= 1) = 7.2%

Plasma vs T8 W3: 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9
p(D = 0) = 36.6%
p(D = 1) = 41.8%
p(D = 2) = 17.9%
p(D >= 3) = 3.7%

Generally, you treat a Wraithlord like you treat a Hive Tyrant or Great Deamon - lot's of heavy anti-infantry firepower and some anti-tank weapons. Many of these weapons are also usefull against other non-vehicle targets. That's different from heavy vehicles, where you absolutely NEED dedicated anti-vehicle weapons.

If you're using anti-infantry weapons against a Wraithlord, you're already in a bad position since such weapons are far more optimal for taking out infantry. This was the whole point, they were really fucking tough for their cost (far more so than equivalent vehicles). Sure you could kill them if you used enough firepower (that's true for anything), but there's the rest of the army to contend with... You know, the stuff you didn't shoot at.

[The Yosemite Bear]

even though this thread was started for the education of a sockpuppet banned member, I just wanted to remind everyone that they are getting a new codex very soon (advanced orders start this weekend)

this has been my shameless plug for GW who doesn't need it, it's not like they haven't already got too much of my money.

[Slacker]

I've read the new book. They're very good. Very very good. Pretty much everything has been re-worked and tweaked, and while I haven't played a game against them yet, they seem like they have the proper feel, but now with 10 times the killing. Oh, and they get fighters and bombers for heavy support.