Is 40k Fluff moving towards an End Game?

[Serafina]

He's pretty much the (equivalent to) a reliquary. The only difference is that he is still "alive" - but he is kept around for worship and reverence, not for any practical reason.

And that's the only reason why i don't like the Smurfs - their Primarch can't even die properly. Now Rogal Dorn, he did it the proper way...

[Eternal_Freedom]

For the purposes of the game, keeping the status quo is totally fine. All they need is filling in backstory and stuff.

Heck, if GW wanted, they could just retcon things so 5th edition events start in 900.M41, and each edition is another decade. That gives them about 20 years of real-world time before they have to worry about hitting the future

[Stark]

To be frank I think following a different time period would be a great idea, because you can use 20 years of stupid fluff to make it awesome without caring about the 'present day'.

I bet the fans would hate it, though.

[Sinewmire]

But as far as the game goes people I doubt pay much attention to the fluff anyhow, they pay attention to the game rules, so doing anything to change or fix it is pretty pointless (its not like a 40K wargame has an actual story in it after all )

I'm not so sure of that. All the players I know are reasonably well versed in the fluff.

I'm also not sure I want them to actualyl dare trying to do a reboot. I can already dread what is going to happen to Star Wars once Lucas dies and someone "reboots" it (How can STar Wars be made into more of a big dumb action movie? OH YEAH HAVE ANAKIN SKYDIVE ON A REPULSOR SURFBOARD WHILE RUSHING TO SAVE PALAPTINE FROM A SKYDIVING GRIEVOUS) or something.

Personally i'd love to see TPM and AotC redone with actual acting. Yeah, ok, there's the danger of making it more XTREME, but they might have some decent dialogue and reworked plot.

[Commander 598]

You'd think they'd just pull Mr 'healing in a stasis field' into a medical unit and help the process along. Poor old GW.

Turn him into a Dread.

That would work great normally, but he was poisoned.

Poisoned? What a coincidence, so was Thule.
Spoiler

Invent a cure.

[Serafina]

Except that Thule was poisoned by a mere mortal Tyranid, of whom they were able to get genetic samples, and he was a normal Space Marine.
Roboute Guilliman was poisoned by a Deamon Primarch (Fulgrim), and they have no such samples and do not understand Primarch biology.

So it's just a tiny little difference here - just because "he's poisoned" in both cases the two don't have to be comparable.

[Black Admiral]

Poisoned? What a coincidence, so was Thule.
Spoiler

Invent a cure.

Serafina's right - that can't be done. In first place, the Ultrasmurfs don't have access to the weapon or poison used. And in the second, if a Primarch's injured badly enough that their own inherent healing abilities and resistance to damage can't handle it, there's nothing a conventional Apothecary can do;

Vaddon had never expected to have the Warmaster for a patient. The Primarch's biology was as far beyond a normal Astartes as his own was from a mortal man, and Vaddon knew that he was out of his depth. Only the Emperor himself had the knowledge to delve into the body of a Primarch with confidence
[...]
"Now, what can you tell us? Will he survive?"

Vaddon took a moment to compose himself before answering, picking up his fallen data-slate. "As I said before, I just don't know. We're like children trying to repair a logic engine that's been dropped from orbit. We don't understand even a fraction of what his body's capable of or how it works."
- False Gods, pgs. 192 & 194

(Vaddon is the Luna Wolves' chief Apothecary, and as such I would expect him to know what he's talking about)

[Commander 598]

When I said "invent", I meant for a writer to "invent".

[Serafina]

When I said "invent", I meant for a writer to "invent".

Which is why i wrote that he is pretty much the equivalent to a reliquary.

Furthermore, he is not a fleshed-out character that is worth reviving - with the exception of the HH-novels, none of the Primarchs had much of a story and were just backstory. And having a Primarch running around would also be a bad thing in many ways - those guys are just much too powerful.

[Manus Celer Dei]

When I said "invent", I meant for a writer to "invent".

Which is why i wrote that he is pretty much the equivalent to a reliquary.

Furthermore, he is not a fleshed-out character that is worth reviving - with the exception of the HH-novels, none of the Primarchs had much of a story and were just backstory. And having a Primarch running around would also be a bad thing in many ways - those guys are just much too powerful.

Has Gulliman even had any real characterization in the HH books so far? Admittedly I've only read up to Mechanicum, but I don't think he's even shown up anywhere.

[Serafina]

I've not read any but the first two, i was just guessing. If he hadn't, that only strengthens my point.

[Junghalli]

And having a Primarch running around would also be a bad thing in many ways - those guys are just much too powerful.

I don't really see why, it's not like they can just defeat all the Imperium's enemies singlehandedly or anything like that. It would still be quite possible to have dramatic conflict in a setting with a Primarch still around.

[white_rabbit]

Has Gulliman even had any real characterization in the HH books so far? Admittedly I've only read up to Mechanicum, but I don't think he's even shown up anywhere.

We get a few snapshots of him, nothing concrete, but humourless prick probably covers it.

To be frank I think following a different time period would be a great idea, because you can use 20 years of stupid fluff to make it awesome without caring about the 'present day'.

Not everything actually is set in the current 999.99999999 period. One of the last game sets was Battle For Macragge, which is hundreds of years prior.

I expect this is going to be the theme for 40k edition releases for a while, with thousands of years of history, they don't particularly need to advance the plot, and in terms of financial risk, its easier to exploit existing stuff than to try and move forward.

If he's healing in stasis you obviously don't need to turn it off to perform surgery.

Its just a plot hook, its worthless waffling about how they could do X or Y, when its simply a breathless " oh wow mebbe he could come back" thing dropped in for flavour.

[Stark]

Uh, that's what all the terrible fluff is. Is it useless waffling about any of it?

[Commander 598]

And having a Primarch running around would also be a bad thing in many ways - those guys are just much too powerful.

I don't really see why, it's not like they can just defeat all the Imperium's enemies singlehandedly or anything like that. It would still be quite possible to have dramatic conflict in a setting with a Primarch still around.

The way I see it, it can't be any more harmful than all the ex-Primarchs running around.

[white_rabbit]

Uh, that's what all the terrible fluff is. Is it useless waffling about any of it?

I suppose that depends if you are interested in it or not. However, I'm talking about specifically proposing scenario's for why or how the Ultramarines guy can be brought back...or not.

Its pointless to even theorise, since we don't have any hard information beyond "he's in a stasis field with a poisoned sword wound " He's not confirmed to be healing, he's not confirmed to be dead, alive etc.

So you can keep saying things like

If he's healing in stasis you obviously don't need to turn it off to perform surgery.

But its silly, although it does present an interesting scenario. Stasis fields are probably variable in their effects, but the only ones we've seen literally freeze time, visible laser beams frozen in their area of effect etc.

So any actual surgery would require an unknown duration,( we know its been ten thousand years or so since Fulgrim shanked him, so if there is any truth to the wound healing, its going to take ridiculously long) and take place under the effects of the stasis field, and could actually be pointless, since he's dead, and you can't exactly take his pulse particularly well (for example) active scanning technology won't work, neither will passive,(in any reasonable timeframe) psychic divination clearly doesn't work either....


As a snarky comment, its remarkably stupid as well.

[white_rabbit]

And having a Primarch running around would also be a bad thing in many ways - those guys are just much too powerful.

I don't really see why, it's not like they can just defeat all the Imperium's enemies singlehandedly or anything like that. It would still be quite possible to have dramatic conflict in a setting with a Primarch still around.

The way I see it, it can't be any more harmful than all the ex-Primarchs running around.

Dramatically speaking, the Ex-Primarchs do very little these days.

Angron is most recently active, but hasn't been around for years, Mortarion, Peturabo and Lorgar are navel gazing and/or being emo, Alpharius/Omegon are ??? Fulgrim is probably getting laid, Magnus is perhaps slightly more active in terms of plotting etc, but nothing particularly recent or major.

In terms of problems to established power structures, there's a bit of an issue in that the existing Imperium is a horrific, monstrous shithole in comparison to the purported human society the Emperor wished to build, and any Primarch is liable to be astonished and disgusted by it.

Superhuman Uber-leader who has issues with existing administration...

Seems familar.

[Connor MacLeod]

I have speculated somewhere in my mind what would happen if you started bringing the Primarchs back. The ones still possibliy living that is:

That would be: Leman Russ, Corax, Jaghatai Khan, and Vulkan. Corax is a maybe because he seems quasi insane, but he's at least functional. There's also Gulliman (who is poisoned) and Lion El'Jonson (Who is basically a vegetable.)

Now, as WR noted the biggest thing is that the Imperium they are used to no longer exists, and there are lots of things they'd quite likely object to: Librarians, the Ecclesiarchy, etc. Which would certainly create problems (especially with the Ecclesiarchy . THey have power and won't want to give that up.) Which leads to the possibility of Schism if the Ecclesiarchy starts playing propoganda against the Space Marine Primarchs (one better hope the other branches of the Imperium are willing to tell them to shut the fuck up, because that could cause alot of problems with the Astartes, since by current count over half of them are Guilliman descneded and rather closely tied to the Imperium.) Assuming that situation could be borne out, it might actually turn some things around without being the least disruptive.

Guilliman coming back is.. a big unknown. He took control once and kept the Imperium together... I think he could do it again. And I'm not entirely sure he woudl be any happier with the way the Imperium is now than the others. EXcept that unlike the others, he potentially has command of over half the Space Marine Legions in existnece since they are descended from him and have been conditioned to venerate Guilliman as a near deity. He might actually work more within the confines of the Imperium to get change done, but there would still be considerable disruption. And the worst thing is, he'd probably do it all "his way" thinking he knew best (which might cause friction with his brother Primarchs.) Corax maybe would work with him and perhaps Khan and Vulkan if need be, but I dont see Russ and Guiliman getting along very well.

Jonson is probably the worst choice to bring back, since by all the fluff he's not exactly sane (if a loyal person) and he's arrogant as fuck and has long wanted to be in charge. AT the best he might make a good military leader and at worst he'd try to take over (and probably wouldnt cooperate with Guilliman any more than Russ would.)

[Serafina]

Why would they object to Librarians?
Librarians have been around "since the time of the Horus Heresy and the creation of the Codex Astartes" (quote from the Deathwatch-rulebook, supported by lot's of other stuff). The Codex Astartes, written by a Primarch and accepted (tough not always fully adapted) talks about them. Those chapters not close to the Codex have their own psyker traditions.
So i really see no reason why any of the primarchs would object to Librarians.


As for the Ecclesiarchy - well, that has been around during the time where Primarchs still walked the galaxy as well. It has changed a lot since then, but that change was mostly the demilitarization and partial limitation of it's power.
Yes, there is still a lot of potential conflict there - but the Primarchs are also religious icons for many, given that they are the "sons of the emperor".

Heck, Rogal Dorn most likely lived until the 36th millennium - he was killed aboard the "Sword of Sacrilege" - a Despoiler-class battleship. Those were commissioned in the middle of the 36th millennium - so that gives us an earliest date (discounting rare warp-time travel) for his death.
We also have two black crusades during that time - both AFTER the age of Apostasy. Since Dorn was killed during an unnamed Black Crusade, he would have witnessed (and possibly fought) during the Age of Apostasy.

So really - at least some Primarchs witnessed a lot of the development of the Imperium. They might want to change things, but it's not like they will find a world totally alien to them.

[Imperial Overlord]

Why would they object to Librarians?
Librarians have been around "since the time of the Horus Heresy and the creation of the Codex Astartes" (quote from the Deathwatch-rulebook, supported by lot's of other stuff). The Codex Astartes, written by a Primarch and accepted (tough not always fully adapted) talks about them. Those chapters not close to the Codex have their own psyker traditions.
So i really see no reason why any of the primarchs would object to Librarians.

Because Librarians were banned by the Council of Nikea, although there's a good argument to be made that the whole Council was a political move by several primarchs to screw the Thousand Sons and that the Emperor switched around all the anti-psyker hysteria they had gathered by applying it to all of his legions. There was some fairly ferocious hypocracy on display at the Council, particularly by Leman Russ and the Space Wolves ("The Thousand Sons are filthy witches, but our Rune-Priests use wholesome natural powers"). At some point, the edict was obviously lifted but a number of Primarchs had misgivings about Librarians.

[Connor MacLeod]

Why would they object to Librarians?
Librarians have been around "since the time of the Horus Heresy and the creation of the Codex Astartes" (quote from the Deathwatch-rulebook, supported by lot's of other stuff). The Codex Astartes, written by a Primarch and accepted (tough not always fully adapted) talks about them. Those chapters not close to the Codex have their own psyker traditions.
So i really see no reason why any of the primarchs would object to Librarians.

Imperial Overlord covered that. We dont really know for sure much about when Librarians came back into vogue or how. At least I havent recalled this being addressed (yet).

As for the Ecclesiarchy - well, that has been around during the time where Primarchs still walked the galaxy as well. It has changed a lot since then, but that change was mostly the demilitarization and partial limitation of it's power.
Yes, there is still a lot of potential conflict there - but the Primarchs are also religious icons for many, given that they are the "sons of the emperor".

Heck, Rogal Dorn most likely lived until the 36th millennium - he was killed aboard the "Sword of Sacrilege" - a Despoiler-class battleship. Those were commissioned in the middle of the 36th millennium - so that gives us an earliest date (discounting rare warp-time travel) for his death.
We also have two black crusades during that time - both AFTER the age of Apostasy. Since Dorn was killed during an unnamed Black Crusade, he would have witnessed (and possibly fought) during the Age of Apostasy.

So really - at least some Primarchs witnessed a lot of the development of the Imperium. They might want to change things, but it's not like they will find a world totally alien to them.

Um, no. That would mean Rogal Dorn was alive during the Age of Apostasy and/or Reign of Blood. You would think that if a Primarch had been around that long he would have done something to stop it.

This problem is further compounded by the fact that there were only 3 such ever built and they were all named in the BFG rulebook (Where the Despoiler originated from.) so that represents a further condradiction, since it would have to be a despoiler built AFTEr that fact (which means that those depsoiles have to turn traitor, go off to some Chaos controlled world that can build battleships, be reverse engineered, then constructed.) Which only makes the above timeline things MORE problematic, not less.

The most likely thing is that the "despoiler" identification was an error.

[Imperial Overlord]

There's a fairly easy way of rationalizing the Despoiler issue. The Despoilers were apparently knock offs of the Terminus Est, which is a pre Heresy ship. Any Chaos battleship based on that design would probably get classified as a Despoiler by Imperial forces.

[Serafina]

There's a fairly easy way of rationalizing the Despoiler issue. The Despoilers were apparently knock offs of the Terminus Est, which is a pre Heresy ship. Any Chaos battleship based on that design would probably get classified as a Despoiler by Imperial forces.

Well, that makes sense.

[jollyreaper]

The impression I've always gotten is that 40K metaplot is largely an exercise in trying to continuously inject ever more impending doom and grimdark without ever actually delivering on the promised apocalypse, in an effort to ratchet up tension and keep the fans coming back without ever having to actually make the kind of radical changes to the universe that an endgame scenario would logically involve.

TL;DR: they like to pretend apocalyptic grimdark is imminent but really the status quo is god so it'll never actually happen.

I don't see it so much as a status quo but a prolonged collapse. Rome wasn't built in a day and it didn't fall in a day, either. The history of the 40K universe is written in thousand-year chunks so the events of any given year and the actions of even great armies is minute in the grand scheme of things.

[Bedlam]

Except that Thule was poisoned by a mere mortal Tyranid, of whom they were able to get genetic samples, and he was a normal Space Marine.
Roboute Guilliman was poisoned by a Deamon Primarch (Fulgrim), and they have no such samples and do not understand Primarch biology.

So it's just a tiny little difference here - just because "he's poisoned" in both cases the two don't have to be comparable.

As Guiliman was poisoned by a Daemon Primarch presumably by a daemon weapon we dont even know if the poison is an actual physical thing, if you want to go extra grim dark it could be a form or corruption or possession. Guiliman may have been stuck in stasis to protect those around him rather than to save his life, that might be a secret hidden by the chapter or forgotten over the millenia. Imagine the effect if the statis field fails and rather than dying he changes into a ravening monster or comes out possessed.