Best tactics displayed in SW?

[Metahive]

It is fan speculation that the first series is, hence the god-like abilities displayed by the Jedi there. The second series...not so much.

[SeaTrooper]

Well, but at least the CIS is shown to be not above planetary genocide as seen in the Ryloth arc, but they don't rain death and destruction down from above either.

That entire arc, from the CIS side, was basically one great act of piracy. Wat Tambor was looting the whole planet down to the ground, and likely wished to get away with his plunder with as few witnesses as possible. That one of his TacDroids used Twi'Leks from some small village as human(?) shields was no more or less intrinsically evil than your typical Afghan or Paki fundi-merc. Nonetheless, please note that Metahive is correct, they never even overtly considered doing a BDZ on Ryloth.

[Metahive]

Actually it was Dooku, not Tambor who ordered the genocide on the Twi'leks, to show "that the Republic is weak and can't help their wards".

That one of his TacDroids used Twi'Leks from some small village as human(?) shields was no more or less intrinsically evil than your typical Afghan or Paki fundi-merc.

I and I presume a good number of the people here will not hesitate to call those people evil either, so I don't get your point.

[Purple]

The point he was trying to make is that for all intents and purposes the CIS are not a organized, centralized nation like the republic. But more or less a conglomerate of various industrial warlords grabbing for money. So they are not evil like an organization, but certain members are evil.

And while I don't completely agree with that assessment, in some cases it was certainly true. After all did the CIS denounce and want to kill that Tambor guy late in the situation? I seem to recall the bombers more or less going for him and the town being collateral damage.

[Metahive]

I repeat that it was Dooku who commanded the genocide, not Tambor. Tambor was about to become collateral damage because his treacherous droid advisor decided to leave him behind.
Since Dooku is the presumed head of the CIS, it does very well reflect on the organization as a whole and they don't strike me as particularly disorganized either.

[Imperial528]

Well, I remember in one EU novel that Thrawn used Interdictor Cruisers that were sent ahead of his main fleet to allow his Star Destroyers to come out in a tight formation, rather than being a ways apart from each other.

The last I read this book was years ago so the details may still be fuzzy, and I don't think they ever explained why a tight formation is good, perhaps so that the enemy could't single out a singe ship as easily? All I know is that the New Republic forces in the area did not like it one bit.

Thats the problem though, the authors don't put time into telling us why a tactic is good, they just tell us its good and have all the characters consider it good so we have to assume its good, even if to us it makes no sense of is ridiculously stupid.

They may have said so, I just don't remember.

[Purple]

Was it really a genocide? I don't recall the episode but I think they just attacked that one city.

[Metahive]

The order was to attack as many dwellings as they could. They only show one attack but comment that there are many more and that Anakin has all hands full to shoot down the bombers.

[SeaTrooper]

Actually it was Dooku, not Tambor who ordered the genocide on the Twi'leks, to show "that the Republic is weak and can't help their wards".

That one of his TacDroids used Twi'Leks from some small village as human(?) shields was no more or less intrinsically evil than your typical Afghan or Paki fundi-merc.

I and I presume a good number of the people here will not hesitate to call those people evil either, so I don't get your point.

Was being sarcastic

Regardless of the CIS hierarchy being a bunch of eee-vil corporations, we can't get around Dooku's quote of 'another ten thousand systems' without considering that large numbers of these systems populations saw good reason to leave the Republic. Were they all evil as well? Or had the corruption and injustice of the Republic, the detachment and unworldliness of the Jedi, driven them to seek some other solution?

Yes, Dooku was often being as deliberately evil as possible, and others among the upper levels of the CIS were only out to get what they could, but I also feel that the Republic's being captured by its politicians and lawyers is something your average Separatist in the street would have thought more important.

If I may draw a parellel here, Firefly/Serenity had something of the same questions posed. The Independents sought to avoid central government control, while the CIS were trying to get out of such a system that had long since stopped working to their benefit. How many Separatists would later become Rebels?

[Metahive]

Pfft, sorry. Genocide beats alleged "corruption" and "otherwordliness" (can't really say they portrayed the CIS as having any point at all so far) by several miles. Nope, you remain within the CIS after all that shit they pulled, you get labeled evil (or a coward), period. Hey, at least the Germans did try to assassinate Hitler several times and there was a vocal opposition within the country that had to be violently silenced. Where are those elements within the CIS? We aren't shown any. We are in fact never shown even one single moral, upstanding and honorable member of the CIS. Thugs, bullies and sociopaths who act purely out of powerhungriness, greed and sadism, the whole bunch.

Blame Filoni and Lucas for making the CIS so one-dimensional, but that's what they are.

[Sela]

@Metahive:

To play devil's advocate, going by the rules of suspension-of-disbelief, shouldn't we assume that the footage of the CIS we see is being smuggled/shown to us by the Old Republic? In which case it'd be quite natural to only show the more evil, vile, thuggy-bulliness. I can tell you for certain that the Average American and the US educational system (pre-college) shows nothing of the German protestors when teaching about the evil-ness of the 3rd reich. Nor ever are we told of any internal disagreement or conflicts that doubtlessly were a large part of the USSR in the Cold War.

[Metahive]

The Old Republic? That's millenia before the Clone Wars even take place.

What's with people trying to proclaim that the Clone Wars series is just propaganda reels when there's no evidence for that whatsoever? If you think the CIS is somehow misrepresented by the movies as well as the series, give me evidence for that. Devil's Advocate is all fine and good, but you need some more secure ground for that to make a believable case.

[Patroklos]

Attacking civlians /= genocide. It doens't make it any less wrong, but that word is thrown out far to often.

[Sela]

Perhaps I got my terms wrong; the "Grand army of the Republic" is referring to which Republic exactly? I meant old republic as in, the one that was there before the defeating of the galactic empire and the re-establishing of the rebels' new republic (as you can see my knowledge outside the films is laughably incomplete).


As to the devil's advocate argument. Let's go back to the concept of Suspension of Disbelief for a moment. As Mike explain's really well: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... lysis.html we need to account for where the footage we view is coming from. In the OT and much of the PT, we are privy to frequent video-shots and recordings made wherein the villains consult amongst themselves in utmost secrecy. That tends to rule out the idea that it was all being recorded by 'the good guys' - though certainly it may well be presented to us from there.

Now consider the Clone Wars series:

1.) We seldom (if ever) see a 'lower-decks' episode where one of our star Jedi does not figure prominently into the story. That seems far more consistent with a propaganda film being shot by the Republic than an objective 3rd party documentary.

2.) While there are a few shots of the CIS top-brass discussing amongst themselves (and I admit I've only watched the first 15 or so episodes plus a smatterin beyond that, so my info could be faulty), the overhwelming majority of footage constantly follows our heroes' perspective and point of view. It makes more sense, then, to think that it was them who were doing the shooting than the CIS.

3.) Finally, *it FITS*. We know from real life experience that every army lionizes their own side and demonizes their opposition. Why should we then assume we're being given honest, unbiased, 3rd party feedback? Especially since (as you would no doubt agree) the CIS is given virtually ZERO redeeming features throughout the clonewar series! It is far more likely that the CIS is not as unequivocally evil as they are portrayed, but rather that we are simply seeing the worst of them.

I realize it's not a bulletproof argument, still it's not as though there's zero reason to be suspect of our info's source.

What would totally debunk this claim, would be an images of propaganda being watched within the show. Why would an edited propaganda film contain it? Alternatively, if there were a few episodes showing a "noble individual" in the CIS, such a thing would contradict the notion of the footage being propaganda (though it could be that just those episodes were not).

[Metahive]

Attacking civlians /= genocide. It doens't make it any less wrong, but that word is thrown out far to often.

Attacking them with the clear objective to wipe 'em all out = Genocide. I've watched the episode again, Dooku's orders are to destroy everything and leave nothing but charred ruins on Ryloth. If that's not attempted genocide, nothing is.

[Metahive]

Sela, this argument has nothing whatsoever to do with SOD. That some guy waving his hands around can move things far away, that requires SOD. That a man can shoot lightning bolts out of his fingtertips, that requires SOD. That you can construct and power a laser strong enough to blow an entire planet to pieces, that requires SOD. That the CIS is misrepresented and the whole movies and series republican propaganda...that requires actual evidence or it falls prey to simple parsimony.

That the bad guys are portrayed as shallow and one-dimensional is not sufficient evidence, that's been a staple of non-propagandistic filmmaking since Lumiere started the whole business.

To show just how absurd your argument is, it would mean we could call Smurfs to be in universe propaganda produced to slender Gargamel since it fits all of your criteria. Nope, that's just nonsense.

P.S.
This is about to get way off-topic. If all it should be discussed in a seperate thread.

[Sela]

Point conceded - and well argued. I was definitely overthinking things there and forgot that we only invoke "who's narrating this" when we're dealing with in-universe contradictions. If we can explain what we see as being exactly what's happening, then that's that.

In that vein - let's just say that the less evil CIS members just don't get air time. The same way that Clone Trooper #58231832 most likely isn't 100% supportive of every last one of Palpatine's genocidal policies. . .and it just doesn't come up.

[hunter5]

Well, I remember in one EU novel that Thrawn used Interdictor Cruisers that were sent ahead of his main fleet to allow his Star Destroyers to come out in a tight formation, rather than being a ways apart from each other.

The last I read this book was years ago so the details may still be fuzzy, and I don't think they ever explained why a tight formation is good, perhaps so that the enemy could't single out a singe ship as easily? All I know is that the New Republic forces in the area did not like it one bit.

Thats the problem though, the authors don't put time into telling us why a tactic is good, they just tell us its good and have all the characters consider it good so we have to assume its good, even if to us it makes no sense of is ridiculously stupid.

He mentions that it is a good tactic because it allows for exact placement of ships completely eliminating the possibility of operator error and it was mentioned earlier in the novels that Thrawn didn't have best operators available seeing as most were either dead or off with the Reborn Emperor on his power build up.

[PainRack]

Well, I remember in one EU novel that Thrawn used Interdictor Cruisers that were sent ahead of his main fleet to allow his Star Destroyers to come out in a tight formation, rather than being a ways apart from each other.

The last I read this book was years ago so the details may still be fuzzy, and I don't think they ever explained why a tight formation is good, perhaps so that the enemy could't single out a singe ship as easily? All I know is that the New Republic forces in the area did not like it one bit.

It wasn't to drop the Vics/Dreadnoughts out in a tight formation. The Last Command had Thrawn using those interdictors to position his forces in the flank, ships would jump in from hyperspace and end out on the flanks or some other unexpected angle.

[Imperial528]

Ah, that makes more sense.

[sithlordfreedonnadd]

I think in heir to the empire when Thrawn sends the fighters against a small attack group and can see by their reaction what species commands the ship and adjusts his tactics so that they chase uselessly after the fighters and ignore the star desroyer thats pretty nice. when it comes to tactics thrawn is awesome

[PainRack]

Ah, that makes more sense.

To be fair, the whole "precise" bit does appear in some information, the most canon being ROTJ novelisation. But there again, the rationale is easy to understand. A fleet that jumps straight out of hyperspace in a "precise" formation is able to concentrate its firepower and coordinate/support with each other against the enemies. Ships that are scattered throughout the system won't. Ships that are scattered a few hundred thousand kilometers away will still have spent precious moments concentrating.

I think in heir to the empire when Thrawn sends the fighters against a small attack group and can see by their reaction what species commands the ship and adjusts his tactics so that they chase uselessly after the fighters and ignore the star desroyer thats pretty nice. when it comes to tactics thrawn is awesome

God, that whole speciest bit was idiotic.
Oooh, Maarg attack is something the species can't adapt to because of a blind spot..... Say what? All of us have blind spots. That gives you what, a few minutes of surprise before training sets in and overcomes our inferiorities.

The best part of all is, Paelleon mentions that the Rebels redeployed in an utterly wrong factor..... meaning that what happened was that the Elonim commander simply had no training on how to respond to a simple tactical maneveur.
That's the hallmark of a screwed up training.
To give an example, the nature of humans when coming under an ambush is to freeze and dodge for cover. Training overcomes that.

[Thanas]

Well, I remember in one EU novel that Thrawn used Interdictor Cruisers that were sent ahead of his main fleet to allow his Star Destroyers to come out in a tight formation, rather than being a ways apart from each other.

The last I read this book was years ago so the details may still be fuzzy, and I don't think they ever explained why a tight formation is good, perhaps so that the enemy could't single out a singe ship as easily? All I know is that the New Republic forces in the area did not like it one bit.

Good formations are normally good because they allow mutual support-but this is not something Star Wars has problems with. For a start, we have seen fleets emerging from hyperspace, and they don't get scattered hither and yon in Jedi, nor do the Republic forces at Geonosis have any problems slipping through the planet's defenses after emerging from hyperspace. That would seem to indicate that they maintained organization despite emerging VERY close to the planet's surface and having little time to assemble and shake out their transports afterwards. So either Zahn doesn't really know what he's talking about, or Thrawn has the most inept crop of navigators to ever flunk out of the Cadian academy on his ships.

It wasn't that. What happened here is that Thrawn was able to pinpoint the ships coming out of hyperspace and immediately opening fire, meaning achieving surprise and outflanking the enemy.

God, that whole speciest bit was idiotic.
Oooh, Maarg attack is something the species can't adapt to because of a blind spot..... Say what? All of us have blind spots. That gives you what, a few minutes of surprise before training sets in and overcomes our inferiorities.

The best part of all is, Paelleon mentions that the Rebels redeployed in an utterly wrong factor..... meaning that what happened was that the Elonim commander simply had no training on how to respond to a simple tactical maneveur.
That's the hallmark of a screwed up training.
To give an example, the nature of humans when coming under an ambush is to freeze and dodge for cover. Training overcomes that.

That elomin commander was also supposed to be the leader of an elite force. So I'd rather chalk it up to "loss of TF due to species deficiency which nobody else but Thrawn had found out about and exploited" than "NR is so stupid that it thinks elite task forces = idiots who cannot respond to an attack"

[Molyneux]

I'd say the battle on Muunilist had, if not stellar, at least decent tactics by the Republic forces...at the very least, they actually thought to use artillery support, and use their main force to keep the Separatists' attention while a smaller strike team neutralized the enemy's main defense.

[PainRack]

[That elomin commander was also supposed to be the leader of an elite force. So I'd rather chalk it up to "loss of TF due to species deficiency which nobody else but Thrawn had found out about and exploited" than "NR is so stupid that it thinks elite task forces = idiots who cannot respond to an attack"

Is the elite force from somewhere else in the chronology?

Furthermore, the whole species deficiency bit still is staggeringly idiotic. Paelleon himself described it as a standard maneveur and named it. The context is that it was too simple to be effective. More importantly,the Elonim deployed wrongly, in a manner that Paelleon recognised as wrong immediately, and that Thrawn said was the only pyschological way that the Elonim commander could respond.

Paelleon military training allowed him to recognise that this response was wrong. If the Elonim commander had been just as well trained as Paelleon was, he would also have followed through in the same manner and deployed differently based on textbook answers/etc. Again, the normal response of a human in an ambush would have been to hesistate and then cower under fire, the "wrong" response. Training allows for soldiers and the commander to respond aggressively and attack.