Let's Create a proper MBT for Halo.

[Ford Prefect]

And all you folks going "hurr hurr lets just use a modern tank" are being super retarded. There is no need for all that fucking surface area with a crew of one or two people! Provide less target and dedicate more of your weight to other shit.

Haha, are you seriously trying to suggest that Scorpions are actually significantly smaller than real MBTs?

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Its not really that much smaller, but as has been said before in this thread, most of the scorpion sits lower, and the part that does stick up is unmaned.

About the coax machine gun, 7.62 may be pretty much worthless against Covenant, but it kills humans just fine, and humans are what the Scorpion was intended to fight. It could still use another, larger machine gun, something like the .50 cal chaingun the Warthog mounts.

[Stark]

Scorpion has a large profile and lots of surface area, which screws it's survivability. Amusingly even the famously tall bradly is half the mass, has a more appropriate weapons load and manages to carry infantry as well.

[adam_grif]

They don't? Crazy.

You'd think the Cov would have vehicles that used the heavier, more useful weapons introduced in later games, but I guess that's heavy retcon territory. Isn't the plasma mortar's max and minimum ranges such that it has a really small engagement window?

I just looked it up, and it seems like there is a giant mech called "the locust" in Halo Wars that does have shields, and that in the same game you can upgrade ghosts/wraiths to have them. No other entry in the franchise, game or novel, mentions any vehicles with shields. Even then, it's not standard equipment. Up to you whether we're gonna take that as canonical or not, especially at the rate we're throwing things from other games out as "gameplay is non-canon".

I'm not sure about the Wraith's maximum v minimum range, but I am sure that it's fucking slow as shit, so the longer the distance they're firing it over, the worse it gets when trying to hit a target.

Scorpion has a large profile and lots of surface area, which screws it's survivability. Amusingly even the famously tall bradly is half the mass, has a more appropriate weapons load and manages to carry infantry as well.

What are you talking about, the Scorpion carries infantry too!

[Stark]

Can you imagine how unsafe it is to sit so close to the turning bits? I mean it's an extension of the warthog's electric drive, but seriously a 4x4 tank is just daft. It fucking SKIDS just like all Halo vehicles too.

[Chris OFarrell]

I'm honestly having trouble seeing why the Scorpian is super terrible outside of gameplay bullshit.

It clocks in at 66 metric tonnes (not just tech manuals and crap say this, Sergeant in one of the games says it too), despite having only a single 90mm and a single 7.62mm MG. 7.62 is fucking useless Vs the covenant's shielded infantry, .50 cal or 14.5mm would be a much, much better choice. The cockpit exposes the people inside to enemy fire (from memory), AND it's slow as fuck.

It's speed has varied immensely between games and it's crew compartment was enclosed in the first two games, so it's pretty clear those factors are down to gameplay bullshit.

Perhaps, but its just as safe to say that they redesigned the tank in between games or that the POA was equipped with a special varient which traded off protection for speed. Honestly, the whole idea of the 'Crew Compartment' like a cockpit is absurd given how even in the BEST varient of the tank, its just not well protected at ALL.

Hell, we all know that having a real tank in Halo would totally fuck the gameplay up anyway so complaining that it can't do 120 kph is pretty hilarious.

...or it just CAN'T do it, because its a design tradeoff they made, under the assumption that if they need to get somewhere in a hurry, the Pellican will always be there to give it a lift. It wouldn't be the first time that designers of military equipment made stupid assumptions and thus stupid designs.

Yeah, you could probably put a bigger gun on it. On the other hand, we don't know if a 105 or 120 would actually be much more effective than it's 90mm; it's not clear if what it's firing would scale up enough with the size increase to oneshot the targets it needs multiple hits to take down.

If a 90MM gun can punch through the armor of a Covenant tank in a couple of hits, a 105 or 120mm shell, especially a penetration shell rather then a high explosive shell, will do fucking instant gib level damage. Seriously, the punny little Gauss rifle on a Warthog which will have a fraction of that KE can punch through a Wraith in a few shots, a 105 APFSDS round should go right through one side and out the other.

Maybe the increased ammo capacity is worth it?

If you're using 3-4 90mm rounds to take out a tank, you're far better off using single 105 rounds from an ammo conservation perspective.

I won't dispute that sticking a bigger machine-gun on it, and perhaps some kind of automated point defense turret on the front to ward off close-range infantry and prevent them from climing onboard and shoving a plasma grenade into you, would be nice, but I'm not seeing it being the worst sci-fi tank ever, especially considering their opposition!

Thats a pathetic excuse; 'Oh the bad guys have an even WORSE tank, so ours only have to be moderatly horrible'.

The thread is 'Lets create a propper MBT for HALO'. That can be done and the fact that the result will shit all over the horribly designed Scorpion is just too bad for them.

And all you folks going "hurr hurr lets just use a modern tank" are being super retarded. There is no need for all that fucking surface area with a crew of one or two people! Provide less target and dedicate more of your weight to other shit.

You do realize there are very good reasons why having more then one person in the tank is actually a GOOD fucking thing? For one, it means you can man multiple weapons systems. For another, you have more crew to fix things and look after things in long campaigns. For another, it means you have people doing ONE JOB only; one commander who looks after the big picture as well as secondery weapons, a driver who's only role is to move the thing and pay attention to THAT, and the gunner who is only concerned with firing the big gun.

And the fact is that the stupidly designed Scorpion really isn't that much smaller at all then a modern MBT.

[Arachnidus]

There's not really much you can do against plasma. High grade energy shields would require a fairly large reactor or energy source of some type, and I'm not sure with any MBT design if that type of addon could be stomached. Perhaps a magnetic field generator? Something to eliminate or dampen the plasma before it hits the hull?

Are you dumb? Halo is built around shields.

Dude, chill out and read the bloody books. People get atomized by Wraith blasts. Spartans merely vaporized from Fuel Rod Cannon impacts. Shields don't do anything once their down. Hell, get hit by a Banshee cannon in Reach. Tell me how that works out. The Saber was a prototype, explaining it's shields, but the Mark V had only just gotten it's shields by the time Reach rolled around. Halo's gameplay is built around shields. Halo's story, is not.

[Ford Prefect]

On the other hand, in The Fall of Reach the Chief survives a Hunter shooting him with a fuel rod gun due to having a Jackal's arm shield, so ...

[Stark]

Dude, chill out and read the bloody books. People get atomized by Wraith blasts. Spartans merely vaporized from Fuel Rod Cannon impacts. Shields don't do anything once their down. Hell, get hit by a Banshee cannon in Reach. Tell me how that works out. The Saber was a prototype, explaining it's shields, but the Mark V had only just gotten it's shields by the time Reach rolled around. Halo's gameplay is built around shields. Halo's story, is not.

AHAHAHAAHAHA you said 'atomised'.

Do Jackal shields come back up as fast as elite shields? Woudl they do so if connected to a vehicle's powerplant? Uh oh.

[Zaune]

I'm tending to favour armour over shields as well, if only because it's likely to be a maintenance hassle; by all means fit one if there's space for an engine that can power it, but it definitely shouldn't leave you wide open if it goes unserviceable. Treat it kind of like explosive-reactive armour.

I'd also ditch the four track pods in favour of a more conventional layout, since they add a lot of mechanical complexity without apparently improving performance, and maybe shift the turret 'stalk' closer to the centreline for better stability. Not sure there's room in the standard turret for a bigger coaxial gun without back-engineering Covenant plasma weapons, so perhaps a cupola mount that can be fired from inside the turret? That would make an ATGM mount somewhat problematic, but a vertical box-launcher on the back might be an option. The main gun itself could definitely use a selective feed between general-purpose HE and some sort of anti-armour round; HESH might offer a slight advantage over SABOT for attacking fixed positions.

Realistically, though, this is not going to produce an ideal tank in every respect. Ideally it would function somewhat like its real-world namesake; recconaissance, fire-support for airborne or beach assaults and urban warfare, and generally bridging the capability gap between a wheeled vehicle like the Warthog and a proper MBT.

[Chaotic Neutral]

The hilarity of just copying a Leman Russ would be to good to pass up.

Lets give it a 105mm Cannon, two twin-linked 20mm side guns, and a .50 cal on top.

I'm not sure if it would be in the same weight class though, and it would probably chew through ammo.

[Stark]

Sponsons and high profile are awful. It sure wouldn't be air-transportable.

[Ryan Thunder]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's wrong with the 4x4 treads?

[Chaotic Neutral]

Sponsons and high profile are awful. It sure wouldn't be air-transportable.

You would probably need to downgrade the twinlinked 20mm to just 20mm sponsons, but something could probably be made to hook it up to a pelican.

I'm not really seeing why sponsons are bad, since the only hits it should take are from infantry weapons, seeing as how the plasma mortar and fuel rod are only effective at close range and low speed.

Plus the 20mm should be able to 1HK any infantry and destroy vehicle in a few dozen.

[Artemas]

Why an MBT? How about a IFV. Missile pod for heavies, 20mm or 30mm for killin' shit, a coax 12.7mm, and then another rws (maybe 40mm grenade launcher or something). Can even carry useless marines!

Wait, stark already said that. nevermind.

[Simon_Jester]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's wrong with the 4x4 treads?

More points of failure, I suspect. If the tank throws a tread, it could be more awkward to fix, and it's unlikely that the tank can continue to function without a tread any more than a car can function with one of the wheels shot off.

[Stark]

In the scorpion's case it's not so important, but it also reduces the contact pad and the articulation probably means the hull has to be higher off the ground. Somehow the Scorpion can still skid, however, so it probably isn't 66t at all.

[Ryan Thunder]

Sponsons and high profile are awful. It sure wouldn't be air-transportable.

You would probably need to downgrade the twinlinked 20mm to just 20mm sponsons, but something could probably be made to hook it up to a pelican.

I'm not really seeing why sponsons are bad, since the only hits it should take are from infantry weapons, seeing as how the plasma mortar and fuel rod are only effective at close range and low speed.

Plus the 20mm should be able to 1HK any infantry and destroy vehicle in a few dozen.

You can put a pair of .50 calibre machine guns on the roof without sacrificing the side armour integrity, you know.

[Chaotic Neutral]

You can put a pair of .50 calibre machine guns on the roof without sacrificing the side armour integrity, you know.

1. The .50 isn't overkill enough.

2. It's not a Leman Russ without sponsons.

[Stark]

Sponsons are stupid. The Leman Russ is stupid. It's also inappropriate, since it's a huge heavily armoured monstrosity with skulls on. GW being shit at designing vehicles doesn't save it.

A smaller, lighter, cheaper vehicle would be more transportable and just as effective, since the cov have no real armour (certainly not in any numbers). Hell, a vehicle laser and an RWS is really all the weapons you need, and armour-crippling weight-wasting shit-arc sponsons aren't.

[adam_grif]

Hell, a vehicle laser and an RWS is really all the weapons you need, and armour-crippling weight-wasting shit-arc sponsons aren't.

Lasers might not be the best idea for haloverse; apparently a Spartan Laser costs 218,000 credits but a complete Warthog only costs 52,000 credits.

[Chris OFarrell]

I'd be curious to how much the L55 gun on an M1/Leo2 costs compared to the cost of the tank.

The Spartan Laser might be able to be made cheaper as well, if its enlarged into a tank gun rather then a man portable system, its probably the micro-fusion reactor on the gun as much as anything that drives up the cost. If it could be linked into a less expensive, larger and more conventional reactor on a tank, its cost might well come down quite a bit.

[Stark]

I'd pay four times as much as a ute for a tank that didn't suck.

But I figured the powerpack was the cost (like with the armours) so bung it on a tank, you instantly have unstoppable firepower and an RWS for everything else. Ideally you'd deal with the chargeup delay, but that's just gravy.

[adam_grif]

Splaser uses battery packs not microfusion or w/e the suits are using in 'verse. But you might be right that it would cost less.

[Chaotic Neutral]

Sponsons are stupid. The Leman Russ is stupid. It's also inappropriate, since it's a huge heavily armoured monstrosity with skulls on. GW being shit at designing vehicles doesn't save it.

A smaller, lighter, cheaper vehicle would be more transportable and just as effective, since the cov have no real armour (certainly not in any numbers). Hell, a vehicle laser and an RWS is really all the weapons you need, and armour-crippling weight-wasting shit-arc sponsons aren't.

It still beats the shit out of the Scorpion.