Is 40k Fluff moving towards an End Game?

[Kojiro]

I'd swear back in the day Guilliman's wounds were caused by a tyranid- my memory says genestealer or lictor but that's really stretching it. I'm sure Fulgrim wasn't mentioned at all though. I do recall thinking at the time it was absurd that a primarch could be felled by an opponent so far beneath it which is what sticks in my mind. Couldn't find where I read it though with a quick look but I do own an awful lot of old GW stuff. What I could find though is a reference in the old Ultramarines Codex (2nd Ed) to Guilliman's Shrine, where he sits in stasis. Apparently he is dead, just not allowed to decay and the wound that killed him was a deep gouge to the neck.

As to 40K fluff moving forward that is, as I think Stark said, something that has been ever present. You can look back to Rogue Trader and see the Sensei and the idea of the Emperor reborn. Even the old Leman Russ double page in the Compilation says he's planning to return when needed and they continued the thread with Johnsons apparent possible return and the claim that Guilliman is slowly healing etc. Anyway it seems clear to me that they intended for it to one day collapse and have to reemerge from another long battle to reclaim what was lost. The day the Astronomicon stops is the 'day' the Imperium dies. I just don't think GW will ever do it.

I'd love to see a story where the Emperor finally gives up or just finally dies. Where for a time there's no astronomicon and everything goes to hell. It could even be a setting standing alone from the traditional 40K universe with descended Imperial forces surviving as best they can. Naturally this sets up a proper return for those who can- I imagine the Emperor reborn could, with time, restore Guilliman and claim a fighting force large enough to retake the galaxy. If I had the talent (and masses of time) I'd write it myself but it's likely too epic for a single writer. Perhaps GW is already working on it.

[MKSheppard]

The thing I just don't get is.......They can have their cake and eat it. They can decide to jump ahead to the 42nd Millennium, while still producing 41st Millenium units; just handle it like other wargames do regarding early and late war units.

[Srelex]

The thing I just don't get is.......They can have their cake and eat it. They can decide to jump ahead to the 42nd Millennium, while still producing 41st Millenium units; just handle it like other wargames do regarding early and late war units.

Because then they'd need to change the brand name on every product box they have.

[Kojiro]

I'm honestly not sure they would. While the idea of multiple time periods existing makes perfect sense I'm not sure GW would want to do that- they're more concerned with how their IP makes money that it's actual quality as IP. The new setting would have to compete with 40K- it has to be different- otherwise it's just large new releases day. No one wants their models removed from legal play and if you give people the option to play with 'moar stuff!!!' they'll do it every time. For a new game to emerge it has to really be something different, either in system or in setting.

In short I don't think they'd really make a new setting- the kind that would actually emerge should the Imperium collapse. They'd just do what amounted to a bunch of Codex updates to the armies, which is something they already do. Like I said I'd love it if they did make that setting but I don't think they would.

[andrewgpaul]

It's worth noting that Warhammer Forge - the fantasy spinoff from Forge World, who make all the big resin tanks and titans - are doing a series of books written by Rick Priestley which are - in his words - "about how Chaos destroys the Warhammer World". Warseer is festooned with threads about how this is some sort of alternative timeline, and why it's a great idea/terrible idea/nothing I care about. It seems that it probably is an alternate timeline, because I don't think even Rick Priestley is allowed to kill off their IP like that, but it'll be interesting to see how they go about things. I don't think Forge World will be following suit with 40K; all their Imperial Armour books from volume 3 onwards have been set in the "past".

[jollyreaper]

Imagine how this would go if Gamer's Workshop were SSI making a popular series of wargames with a common engine describing different eras. Sure, you have the popular line of WWII games. Play WWII to the logical conclusion and the German army disappears and you have US vs. USSR. Make it all Grimdark and you have the proxy wars fought with much heavier firepower with the threat of nuclear armageddon preventing the direct war. Korea was fought with very heavy conventional weapons but it could be dragged out for a decade or more with massed aerial combat and giant tank battles. China has the break with the USSR but border skirmishes become massed WWII battles that still result in a truce and retreat to the original borders. Vietnam would become WWII redux with Soviet aid looking more like lend-lease including large warships, the guerrilla armies would have armored divisions, and so forth. The culmination of the 20th century line would be WWIII in Europe. The war goes nuclear but the nukes are both better and worse than was planned for; the EMP is far more effective and electronics hardening was insufficient so the majority of the nukes hit their targets as radioactive bricks, not exploding. So, where is the future? India and China become major regional powers and the US goes into "last days of Rome" drawdown of power, creating the vacuum for them to grow into. Play up the idea of culture war between islam and christianity and you have the grimdark future of the 21st century. Anyone wanting to go back to Axis and Allies is playing the historic version of the game. The advantage Warhammer has over real life is that the tech doesn't advance much so the same Space Marines fighting in 35k are the ones fighting in 40k and 41k. Visually, no different.

Star Wars is sort of going through this right now with the various eras. There's the Knights of the Old Republic era, crappy prequel era, original trilogy, crappy expanded universe fluff immediately following the movies, crappy Star Wars Legacy era, etc. Even once the broad storylines are established, there's plenty of room for fleshing out the particulars of what happened within those eras, assuming the writers don't suck. (Which in the Star Wars case at this point, they suck bad.)

I think the problem with Warhammer is that they don't want to mess with success. Imagine trying to tell another Indiana Jones story, assume the fourth movie didn't happen. Eventually you're going to run out of timeline for the nazis to be in. Would the USSR make a good substitute? I think it could but if done poorly most of the fans would be pining for the good old nazis, an enemy you could really feel good about hating. Right now there's an interesting balance of factions that can be fought against and any universe-shattering change might ruin the flavor of everything. Civil war amongst the humans, i.e. a second heresy? Eldar finally wiped out? Tau draw too much attention and get curb-stomped? People will be upset. And there's the question of whether gamers would still want to play an army that's been wiped out of the official continuity. *shrug*

It's kind of like soap opera syndrome. Delay as much as possible and add drama and tension to the story without actually letting anything happen.