Modern Day Earth vs Final Fantasy 12 armies

[Bakustra]

Considering I know really little about FF XII I cannot rule out mentally handicapped either. But as to reasons why land warfare is done with sword and shield while in the air they use machineguns. Well the simplest answer that does not involve magic is that they actually learned the lesson Maxim was preaching. With machineguns you can cause untold loss of life.
With their magical healing and low intensity warfare, casualties are pretty limited I would assume and it keeps up the dueling style of warfare. Air combat cannot be done with blade and spear so machineguns are used, but the total number of casualties remains low because of healing and generally the amount of combatants in each battle is fairly low.
See? No pixie magic required.

Btw. Even if they conduct scientific experiments doesn't mean the poor sodding masses are a bastion of independent thought. So why couldn't the powers that be spoon feed them any line of BS that's convenient.

-Gunhead

What are you talking about? Wars are only "low-intensity" in the sense that they don't conduct terror bombing, but the two major powers have been at war for years, with the war only halting after the capture of a major chokepoint and port for the airfleets of the one. Your conspiratorial scenario flies in the face of the actual situation, wherein the two major powers hate one another. It also flies in the face of common sense; this is not early Tokugawa Japan, where there is a centralized authority that could legitimately try this.

You're also suggesting major conspiracies in-universe, just because you don't like the thought of magic in a fantasy universe. You really don't get how strange you seem, do you?

[Imperial528]

If percussion-caps are complex enough to be chosen food for these bacteria-things, why haven't similarly complex systems such as flintlocks, triggers, and other mechanisms also been affected? And have any characters in FF12 used wheel-lock pistols? Since those things are about as complex as modern firearms.

And, from my research, it seems that they only eat certain metals, not complex devices.

Another interesting thing I noticed is that some devices use electricity, but only if their power demands require it (Airships aren't noted to be large enough to require electricity). Apparently, it is beyond these people to go dig some coal up from the ground and burn it in any sort of mass-production fashion, and the reason why they didn't try to is because they were content with using low powered devices which run solely on magic, thus they had no industrial revolution as Earth did from the harnessing of electricity.

[Gunhead]

Well if I knew anymore about FF XII I could come up with something better. I don't so I'm forced to speculate a lot. Actually you just said it, they have the capability, but still they don't try to bomb each other into oblivion. Why is that? Considering their air arms, land warfare should be an extension of that. Still both powers seem hell bent on wielding large ground armies that fight independently of the airships. The fact that they've been at war for years says nothing. If the ground arm is that much larger than the air army, they're still riding / walking everywhere. This takes time and any ground fight they have by modern standards is low intensity. They have no automatic weapons to speak of, no modern artillery, no air support so I'm told, no crew served support weapons,
no modern mortars, no armored vehicles and most importantly they lack communication equipment that allows today's armies concentrate firepower to maximise the effect.

so, it's pixies that prevent them from achieving that. yeah pixies. That certainly exist. Just read all the facts that we have about them.

Yes. I'm strange. Thank you for noticing that.

-Gunhead

[Bakustra]

Well if I knew anymore about FF XII I could come up with something better. I don't so I'm forced to speculate a lot. Actually you just said it, they have the capability, but still they don't try to bomb each other into oblivion. Why is that? Considering their air arms, land warfare should be an extension of that. Still both powers seem hell bent on wielding large ground armies that fight independently of the airships. The fact that they've been at war for years says nothing. If the ground arm is that much larger than the air army, they're still riding / walking everywhere. This takes time and any ground fight they have by modern standards is low intensity. They have no automatic weapons to speak of, no modern artillery, no air support so I'm told, no crew served support weapons,
no modern mortars, no armored vehicles and most importantly they lack communication equipment that allows today's armies concentrate firepower to maximise the effect.

so, it's pixies that prevent them from achieving that. yeah pixies. That certainly exist. Just read all the facts that we have about them.

Yes. I'm strange. Thank you for noticing that.

-Gunhead

Here, let me summarize this entire conversation. "There's an in-universe explanation for this situation." "WELL MAYBE THERE ISN'T". I'll leave it to you to figure out who is who. In addition, the air forces are the most important parts of their military from every account we've seen. Finally, there's a good reason for lacking terror bombing and strategic bombing: without a psychopath like Douhet to advocate it, these methods would be less popular, especially given that there is little ground-based industry as well. Perhaps they mainly raid docks, shipyards, and military encampments.

If percussion-caps are complex enough to be chosen food for these bacteria-things, why haven't similarly complex systems such as flintlocks, triggers, and other mechanisms also been affected? And have any characters in FF12 used wheel-lock pistols? Since those things are about as complex as modern firearms.

And, from my research, it seems that they only eat certain metals, not complex devices.

Another interesting thing I noticed is that some devices use electricity, but only if their power demands require it (Airships aren't noted to be large enough to require electricity). Apparently, it is beyond these people to go dig some coal up from the ground and burn it in any sort of mass-production fashion, and the reason why they didn't try to is because they were content with using low powered devices which run solely on magic, thus they had no industrial revolution as Earth did from the harnessing of electricity.

What do you mean it's "beyond" them? The quote in question says that they avoid using conventional electricity because of the fuel requirements, so it seems to be a question of compactness rather than inability to build a coal-fired engine, especially since they do use electricity. Also, how exactly do you build skyscraper-sized flying vehicles without some sort of industry?

[Gunhead]

Here's some summary too. Still no in universe evidence of gremlins. Oh sure there's an explanation, well that makes it ok. Too bad any physical proof is still quite missing.
In addition, considering I'm having a good time here, your only counter argument to my little theory was:"this is not early Tokugawa Japan, where there is a centralized authority that could legitimately try this."
We know this because? Oh, right there are two sides!! T3H HATRED!
But surely two powers couldn't hold on to a way of fighting that is perfect in terms of sending oh for example important nobles to the battlefield where they can gather glory while being safeguarded by superior technology. Oh they'd never do that. NEVER I SAY!
They obviously use any power at their disposal to annihilate the... oh wait. they don't. Even though both sides have the capability.
And never has a war been fought for political gain, no, not ever.
Well then again what do I know about how Governments work in FF XII?


-Gunhead

[Bakustra]

Here's some summary too. Still no in universe evidence of gremlins. Oh sure there's an explanation, well that makes it ok. Too bad any physical proof is still quite missing.
In addition, considering I'm having a good time here, your only counter argument to my little theory was:"this is not early Tokugawa Japan, where there is a centralized authority that could legitimately try this."
We know this because? Oh, right there are two sides!! T3H HATRED!
But surely two powers couldn't hold on to a way of fighting that is perfect in terms of sending oh for example important nobles to the battlefield where they can gather glory while being safeguarded by superior technology. Oh they'd never do that. NEVER I SAY!
They obviously use any power at their disposal to annihilate the... oh wait. they don't. Even though both sides have the capability.
And never has a war been fought for political gain, no, not ever.
Well then again what do I know about how Governments work in FF XII?


-Gunhead

So you admit you have no experience with the universe in question, and yet you refuse to listen to people that do. Oh my, oh me, whatever can anybody do against such pigheadedness stupidity tenacity? So you ignore that this is a war that was fought in the air, not on the ground, in favor of what you imagine it to be. Well, shine on you crazy diamond.

But you say that there must be a centralized authority when there is no equivalent to the Catholic Church or the Pope, and there are two warring nations, one of which is an expansionist power. This is not a formalized war, this is a war of conquest by one nation getting interrupted by another nation seeking to preserve the balance of power. But I'm sure that this is pixie dust as well, right?

[Star Wars 888]

Gah post didn't work

bacteria can't be controlled by FF12

ground; we pwn them

air; close. Their airships are powerful but extremely outranged by our jet fighters and got damaged by ww2 level fighters

Main characters boarde airships, so why can't a modern special forces team do that?

[Imperial528]

What do you mean it's "beyond" them? The quote in question says that they avoid using conventional electricity because of the fuel requirements, so it seems to be a question of compactness rather than inability to build a coal-fired engine, especially since they do use electricity. Also, how exactly do you build skyscraper-sized flying vehicles without some sort of industry?

If they have the industry to build skyscraper-sized airships then it becomes even more stupid that they cannot get enough coal or oil to fuel larger constructs. Compared to their airships, coal engines shouldn't be too large, and any ground-based coal plant would be large anyway, and it'd be rather easy to supply (imagine the cargo capacity of those airships). Gas or oil powered engines are extremely compact, as are solar panels, batteries, and other ways of generating and storing electricity.

Essentially, I'm saying its beyond them because despite having the capability to achieve what we have they instead decided: "Well, its inefficient now, so it always will be. Time to go back to magicks!1!" In less than two centuries after harnessing electricity, we created some of the most powerful weapons known, advanced faster than any society before us, and sent human beings into space, other worlds, and sent probes around the entire solar system. I don't know how long the civilizations in FF12 have known of electricity, but if they've yet to harness it, they're missing marbles, I think.

And frankly, your point about "the war is in the air not the ground" is moot. Airships, no matter how large, cannot effectively hold conquered territories. If one nation really did want to conquer another, the easiest way would be to remove the other nation's ability to hold both his own lands and any gains he makes in the war, and the way to do that is to kill soldiers.

[Bakustra]

What do you mean it's "beyond" them? The quote in question says that they avoid using conventional electricity because of the fuel requirements, so it seems to be a question of compactness rather than inability to build a coal-fired engine, especially since they do use electricity. Also, how exactly do you build skyscraper-sized flying vehicles without some sort of industry?

If they have the industry to build skyscraper-sized airships then it becomes even more stupid that they cannot get enough coal or oil to fuel larger constructs. Compared to their airships, coal engines shouldn't be too large, and any ground-based coal plant would be large anyway, and it'd be rather easy to supply (imagine the cargo capacity of those airships). Gas or oil powered engines are extremely compact, as are solar panels, batteries, and other ways of generating and storing electricity.

Essentially, I'm saying its beyond them because despite having the capability to achieve what we have they instead decided: "Well, its inefficient now, so it always will be. Time to go back to magicks!1!" In less than two centuries after harnessing electricity, we created some of the most powerful weapons known, advanced faster than any society before us, and sent human beings into space, other worlds, and sent probes around the entire solar system. I don't know how long the civilizations in FF12 have known of electricity, but if they've yet to harness it, they're missing marbles, I think.

And frankly, your point about "the war is in the air not the ground" is moot. Airships, no matter how large, cannot effectively hold conquered territories. If one nation really did want to conquer another, the easiest way would be to remove the other nation's ability to hold both his own lands and any gains he makes in the war, and the way to do that is to kill soldiers.

You're quite literally wrong from the very first sentence, sir. There is an oil industry. There are abandoned oil rigs from an effort to establish oil mining in an area filled with hostile natives in a large desert you pass through in-game. They do have an oil industry, at the very least. So you are quite simply wrong, but you're a wiki-warrior anyhow, so being wrong is somewhat like your default state.

But there are two ways to look at it. One is that coal power is superior to Mist, and therefore they're inferior because magic is always inferior to technology, and besides, they haven't gone into space! This is your way. It is an interesting way from a philosophical standpoint, but I'll get to that later. The other way is that Mist is superior to other means of generating electricity, because it is compact, and doesn't produce the pollution of other methods. Therefore, they use it because it is better, not because they're all genetically inferior or whatever your brain assembles.

What I find interesting is this apparent belief that nothing can ever be better than the modern day at anything. The only grudging exceptions are when the modern day is clearly outclassed, and still there are holdouts obsessed with tactics and doctrine. I'm not going to speculate on the possible origins of this, but I find it an interesting belief nonetheless.

Gah post didn't work

bacteria can't be controlled by FF12

ground; we pwn them

air; close. Their airships are powerful but extremely outranged by our jet fighters and got damaged by ww2 level fighters

Main characters boarde airships, so why can't a modern special forces team do that?

WW2 level fighters, eh? Tell me, what fighters were VTOL in WW2?

For that matter, how did the main characters board the Bahamut? Oh, that's right, an airship, which was designed to dock with other airships.

The germinites are really a concern on the larger level, but I find the possible consequences more interesting than this dull "everybody fight everybody tonight" scenario.

[Mobius IO]

I think the intent of the OP was for Earths fully functioning armed forces to meet the FF 12 armies with all of their "tech" working as well.

I mean if we're saying germinites could cripple Earth wouldn't magic not existing here be a bigger issue for the FF12 armies?

[Imperial528]

You're quite literally wrong from the very first sentence, sir. There is an oil industry. There are abandoned oil rigs from an effort to establish oil mining in an area filled with hostile natives in a large desert you pass through in-game. They do have an oil industry, at the very least. So you are quite simply wrong, but you're a wiki-warrior anyhow, so being wrong is somewhat like your default state.

Wiki-warrior? Um, what? Wikipedia has a general plot summary at best, the only technology they ever mention is the stuff the game runs on. The FF wiki is worse. And I'm not about to go buy a game to win a debate on the internet. And none of my sources discussed any mention of oil in FF12, so I'm sorry that I may have missed that. You have any screen shots?

But there are two ways to look at it. One is that coal power is superior to Mist, and therefore they're inferior because magic is always inferior to technology, and besides, they haven't gone into space!

In the few sources I could even find mention of electricity or technology in it was stated that electricity opened the doors to even larger constructs. Obviously, they didn't build on that potential.

This is your way. It is an interesting way from a philosophical standpoint, but I'll get to that later. The other way is that Mist is superior to other means of generating electricity, because it is compact, and doesn't produce the pollution of other methods.

I'm not saying magic has it's uses, I'm saying that the potential of electricity was ignored, when with it, I'm sure they could at least improve upon what they have. And modern electric generators are quite compact as well, and with that your giant air fortress doesn't have to rely on sucking the power from mists which may not even exist on Earth. (One of my sources stated that one of the airships powered itself through this, along with other magic.)

Therefore, they use it because it is better, not because they're all genetically inferior or whatever your brain assembles.

Have you been reading the same things I've been posting? I have never once mentioned a single FF race, only refereed to the civilization, and even then I have never mentioned one of those by either.

What I find interesting is this apparent belief that nothing can ever be better than the modern day at anything. The only grudging exceptions are when the modern day is clearly outclassed, and still there are holdouts obsessed with tactics and doctrine. I'm not going to speculate on the possible origins of this, but I find it an interesting belief nonetheless.

The ability to outclass something in a few areas do not make their outright failures any less laughable. Look at the ancient Greeks for example, their philosophers had computed many things such as the circumference, radius, and area of the Earth, along with many advances in geometry that later formed trigonometry. Yet due to the lack of enthusiasm for actual experimentation, the Greek ideas about motion were completely and entirely wrong! Does this make their accomplishes any less impressive? No. Do their accomplishes make their failures any less laughable? No!

Yes, the ability to build airships the size of battleships or buildings is impressive. Guess what? It doesn't make up for the fact that these airships haven't been utilized to their full potential. Logic, mind you, isn't a modern thing. If I explained these airships to Alexander the Great, I'm sure he put two and two together and figure out that you could easily decimate opposing ground forces with them.


Also, take note that I am not very well informed about this game, and that the research I've done presents few, if any, quantifiable statements, so I have to pick through what seems right and what seems wrong and base my assumptions and speculations off of that. You, someone who claims to be knowledgeable about the game and its universe, have offered no quantifiable statements in your arguments either. In fact, you've ignored one of my points outright, which is listed below:

Now, I don't know the size of the warships exactly, or whatever they are made of, but how would the 488 pound warhead of the AGM-84 Harpoon fare against one? This missile can be carried and launched by bombers, and I'm sure that some modification to the programming could make it Air-to-Air rather than Air-to-Sea or Sea-to-Sea. A single B-52 bomber can carry twelve missiles, and a missile destroyer could carry many more. The F-16 and the F/A-18 can carry the same missile.

[Bakustra]

Here is a picture of the oil rig :Click It's in the background, at a distance.

You take a look at the sources, but ignore that they build and power large flying battleships with magically-generated electricity, and a larger fortress that is potentially a kilometer in its longest dimension, and still as wide as a battleship's length across its smallest. Saying that they're obviously failures is just leaping to conclusions. In any case, there is a reason why they don't bombard: major fortresses, like the one seen in the opening, are protected by shielding systems (from this compilation of scenes) against aerial assault.

In other words, you start from the presumption that coal must be so much better, rather than the presumption that they adopted what they did for a reason.

I answered your question with a question because it depends on how the Harpoon damages naval vessels. Does it explode them outright? Does it sink them? How does it do it? That has significant consequences on whether the Harpoon would be an effective weapon against a large airship.

When it comes to quantification, there are limits on what you can divine from a handful of cinematics in a video game. Sorry.

[Gunhead]

Here's some summary too. Still no in universe evidence of gremlins. Oh sure there's an explanation, well that makes it ok. Too bad any physical proof is still quite missing.
In addition, considering I'm having a good time here, your only counter argument to my little theory was:"this is not early Tokugawa Japan, where there is a centralized authority that could legitimately try this."
We know this because? Oh, right there are two sides!! T3H HATRED!
But surely two powers couldn't hold on to a way of fighting that is perfect in terms of sending oh for example important nobles to the battlefield where they can gather glory while being safeguarded by superior technology. Oh they'd never do that. NEVER I SAY!
They obviously use any power at their disposal to annihilate the... oh wait. they don't. Even though both sides have the capability.
And never has a war been fought for political gain, no, not ever.
Well then again what do I know about how Governments work in FF XII?


-Gunhead

So you admit you have no experience with the universe in question, and yet you refuse to listen to people that do. Oh my, oh me, whatever can anybody do against such pigheadedness stupidity tenacity? So you ignore that this is a war that was fought in the air, not on the ground, in favor of what you imagine it to be. Well, shine on you crazy diamond.

But you say that there must be a centralized authority when there is no equivalent to the Catholic Church or the Pope, and there are two warring nations, one of which is an expansionist power. This is not a formalized war, this is a war of conquest by one nation getting interrupted by another nation seeking to preserve the balance of power. But I'm sure that this is pixie dust as well, right?

I refuse to listen when people who do know, or claim to know how something works, then just claim they're right without backing shit up. I'm saying there could be many reasons why they fight the way they do and made speculations based on historical events that might apply here.
You say the airwar is the important part and there's little important production capability on the ground. Ok, then why invest time and money on a shit ground army, that has no way of affecting the airships in combat? If important production capabilities are placed so you need airships to attack them, you would have a strong air infantry or similar that can take and hold them. These could be equipped with all kinds of complex assault weapons since they'd be fighting outside the bugs. Ground armies would only be needed when trying to take and hold ground, but would be totally defenseless against air assault unless inside a city or other urban area, assuming civilian bombing is a nono and the bugs affect equipment fast enough so you cannot wage a major land campaign from air with hi-tech weaponry. But I'm willing to bet that even when fighting for a dock or similar place of importance, they're still using pig stickers and flintlocks.

I never said anything about formalized war. I just said by comparison it's low intensity. If you cannot grasp the difference too bad.
So ok I got a little snide on the last post and I retract the snide but not the point. Point being why must I believe that their method of fighting is the way it is because of some magical bug and not because there could be several, and probably are, more valid reasons why they fight in a manner they do that does not involve pixies.
You're simply stating I'm must be wrong because you know so and now I'm asking you to back that claim up. So what do you know that says they do not have, or do have, a set of rules for warfare that both nation adhere to? You claim there is some sort of hate aspect involved. Is it racial? Economical? Political? Historical? What is the war about?
At the same time you're stating that they refrain from bombing indiscriminately in so not to cause civilian casualties. What's stopping them if there's some form of hate involved.
Do they have examples of more modern personal weapons? Do we have evidence of such? Is there something they can to substitute them?
We know they have machineguns but that's about it.
How do their governments work, Monarchy? Dictatorship? Republic? Do they have hereditary rulers? How many people in each state?
How big are the armies?
I couldn't find answers to any of these questions and all can have an impact on how and why they fight.

As to the magic bug. I'm putting it as simply as I can. Show proof of it existing. I want some in universe data on the sucker, not a say so, not someone talking about it or simply attributing a mechanical failure to it. At least a time frame how fast their equipment deteriorates when exposed. If nothing about the bug can be quantified see following.
Just so I'm clear on this. I will never, ever, accept an explanation that requires magic or other supernatural things if a mundane case can be made why things are as they are. Specially when asked to take it at face value. No matter how magical or fantastic setting may be.

-Gunhead

[Imperial528]

Here is a picture of the oil rig :Click It's in the background, at a distance.

You take a look at the sources, but ignore that they build and power large flying battleships with magically-generated electricity, and a larger fortress that is potentially a kilometer in its longest dimension, and still as wide as a battleship's length across its smallest. Saying that they're obviously failures is just leaping to conclusions. In any case, there is a reason why they don't bombard: major fortresses, like the one seen in the opening, are protected by shielding systems (from this compilation of scenes) against aerial assault.

What stops you from bombarding the unshielded components, like the army currently engaging yours?

And I have never once said that the airships themselves are failures, it's how they are used. What's a failure is that they still use flintlocks, it can't be too hard to figure out what metals the germinites do not eat.

In other words, you start from the presumption that coal must be so much better, rather than the presumption that they adopted what they did for a reason.

I assumed that electricity would be better, since all of my sources indicated that they had magic and airships and that, then someone discovered a way to create electricity which had the potential to help them make even greater things, but it went ignored because they were too lazy to go through the work to bring their knowledge and skill about it up to par with their knowledge of magic.

I answered your question with a question because it depends on how the Harpoon damages naval vessels. Does it explode them outright? Does it sink them? How does it do it? That has significant consequences on whether the Harpoon would be an effective weapon against a large airship.

It has a high-explosive weapon, so my assumption is that it makes large holes in them.

When it comes to quantification, there are limits on what you can divine from a handful of cinematics in a video game. Sorry.

Which you haven't even tried to do.

[Star Wars 888]

1. Still hasn't been proved that bacteria can be controlled by FF12 armies; on the contrary, if they could then they wouldn't be bothered by them would they?

2. Why are imperials on the airships still using medieval and Rennesaince era weapons?

[Bakustra]

1. Still hasn't been proved that bacteria can be controlled by FF12 armies; on the contrary, if they could then they wouldn't be bothered by them would they?

2. Why are imperials on the airships still using medieval and Rennesaince era weapons?

Can you actually read, or do you just make half-baked assumptions whenever it looks like somebody disagrees with you? I never said that the germinites were a tactical consideration, or something under the control of any of the powers. I mused on whether they would be able to travel through the portal and thrive on the Earth, and the long-term problems that may cause. "Long-term", in this sense, was on the order of decades in my mind. I also pointed out that they were the reason for the unusual technological patterns. People have denied this in favor of the usual stratagem of making everybody in fiction at any time to be incredibly stupid, indeed with congenital brain damage, because of this disease of refusing to concede a power that could stand up to modern Earth on anything, except in space travel. But let's think as to why exactly people on an airship might not use weapons that are vulnerable to the germinites. Now, it seems implausible, I'll admit, but there's a chance that they may just want to land, and be able to fight once they land.

Imperial 528, the armies were under the shield. It protects from bombardment against aerial assault but allows ground forces to enter. But let's take a look at what the game actually says:

Sage Knowledge 10: Terrestrial Conveyances
"We all are told at one time or another, but how many of us recall that Ivalice is covered with mimic-germinites? Easy to forget, as they have little impact on living creatures, but any moogle worth his hammer could tell you the horribly corrosive effect the little devils have on the metals most often used for engines and vehicles. All the better for airships, which fly high above the germinite clouds, yet a sorry state of affairs for those who would make their journeys on land. The next time you see a party traveling by chocobo and chocobo-led wagon, you will know why they're the preferred means of overland transport, won't you."

and

Sage Knowledge 11: Electricity and Magick
"With the discovery and harnessing of electricity, it was suddenly possible to operate devices of a far larger scale than ever before conceived. However, the vast quantity of solid fuel required to generate electrical power, and the development of methods to artificially condense Mist, led to the latter supplanting the former as the dominant usable energy source in Ivalice. Only the most energy-hungry devices still use electricity today."

So the germinites attack the metals used in making internal combustion engines and vehicles. That sounds like they attack metals with high pressure tolerances- the ones that are useful in making more powerful firearms. Since you'll no doubt start crowing about this, it seems I was wrong about complexity being the important factor. So the thing holding them back is the ability to use good barrels that could fire Minie balls and other, better methods of death-dealing. Electricity, meanwhile, preceded the industrial use of magic, and was abandoned except for a few devices. It seems that industrial magic may well be more useful than the internal combustion engine, in-universe at least.

The shields can be seen starting at 4:00 into this video. There is also a scene of an airship providing aerial fire support when a shield is absent- and I will look for a video of that scene.

Gunhead, this is ridiculous. They're an off-hand mention in a single piece of lore, and yet you want incredible amounts of proof to demonstrate that they're not just a hoax so that you can put down a fictional universe. This really is just "There's a reason for why things are the way they are in-universe." "WELL MAYBE THERE ISN'T".

[Gunhead]

Yeah and out the window goes pixies with metal eating habits. No evidence provided on their capability or that they would have any effect on our tech. At the same time goes their only chance of having even a slight chance of taking on even a WWII army on the ground. It would be hilarious to see their glow fighters taken out from distances they don't even know they're under attack. Even if somehow those bigger airships can survive everything we can throw at them, which I seriously doubt, at some point supplies will run out. At which point they're fucked anyway.

FXII wrote:
Sage Knowledge 10: Terrestrial Conveyances
"We all are told at one time or another, but how many of us recall that Ivalice is covered with mimic-germinites? Easy to forget, as they have little impact on living creatures, but any moogle worth his hammer could tell you the horribly corrosive effect the little devils have on the metals most often used for engines and vehicles. All the better for airships, which fly high above the germinite clouds, yet a sorry state of affairs for those who would make their journeys on land. The next time you see a party traveling by chocobo and chocobo-led wagon, you will know why they're the preferred means of overland transport, won't you."

Yes. You're ignorant little fucks who like to spread superstition and bullshit.

What compelling evidence. This provides concrete proof that these little fuckers still exist or that they eat metal that is manufactured without magic and pixie dust. More likely they're set on their ways people who lack the means and the technology to produce weapons even close to what modern day has. Not to mention all sorts of other electronics that by Bakustra's little pressire theory would be completely unaffected by said pixies. No proof that these eat explosives of any kind. Just to be sure well store and place all direct fire weapons say 500m above sea level let's see little germies go up hill. Hopefully they're not creating a portal to the Netherlands. Would make a nice study target though.

So I'm supposed to believe that people with access to magic who are quite contend to use archaic weaponry to fight their wars are somehow still scientific and while demonstrated every effort to go around the problem without even a shred of evidence of trying to tackle the problem can produce advanced weapons they just don't do so.
Right. I'll be super scared when they drag out their ballistas of doom.

Even If I was to take that useless piece of drivel at face value, It doesn't tell us are all areas equally affected, do these germs affect the whole planet, how easily they spread and what the fuck do they make their weapons out of? Iron? Because stuff like swords require and perform better when made to higher spec, now I don't really don't know that much about metals, but if extreme hardness is what pixies are after, The hardest materials inside a normal engine are the cylinders and the piston. Outer layer of
any edged weapon is also made out of hard steel. So what's the limit of hardness that makes it pixie food. What about ammunition casings? They're brass and not really hard. Why they don't use cased ammunition for small arms? What about electric engines?

You can call them germs of whatever. It's obvious they're about as harmful as ordinary rust. At best rust + and we already have that and means to counter it.

-Gunhead

[Bakustra]

Oh god, it's returned!

So let me get this straight. You dismiss any evidence that contradicts your preconceived notions about how anything fantasy must be worse than the modern day. It's becoming apparent that you're not willing to be honest or even try, so tell me why exactly I should bother responding to you. Tell me why I should keep figuratively smashing my hand with a hammer. Are you willing to even consider anything that conflicts with your preconceived notions? So far, it looks like you won't, and if you won't, then I will simply ignore anything else you post until you do. So convince me, or alternately, carry on your own discussion with everybody else about how the US would stomp all of fantasy SO HARD you guys, it's really great.

[Gunhead]

What evidence? What evidence you've provided? You have a piece of text that has about as much value as me looking into my table drawer and finding some mystical piece of knowledge saying that there's a little elf living inside every bullet made on earth.
You just can't accept the fact that FF XII is roughly medieval world with magic and some somewhat impressive flying things. You claim they have real science and justify this by saying the fliers are a resent invention. When I ask how resent you say I'm being unreasonable. You insist on your pixie theory that's based on some folk lore and just assume it's true. I've asked for quite within reason to show what can pixie magic do and I've been willing to accept any real information on the matter, but since you cannot even provide how long would an item made in Ivalice last in the germ cloud, I calling bullshit.
You want me to accept a totally unsupported position just because. Which is more plausible beings whose very existence can be questioned, EASILY I might add, or the simple fact that they just suck at making combustion engines.
In terms of proof you've given me jack shit. If you cannot justify something exists by measuring it, having some indirect measurable to it then it's safe to assume it's not worth bringing up in a debate on a forum where you're supposed to quantify things. Being magical doesn't exclude it.

So put up some numbers on super rust and I'll believe you.
If you cannot then the whole issue is moot since then it's capabilities are what anyone wants them to be.


-Gunhead

[Star Wars 888]

1. Still hasn't been proved that bacteria can be controlled by FF12 armies; on the contrary, if they could then they wouldn't be bothered by them would they?

2. Why are imperials on the airships still using medieval and Rennesaince era weapons?

Can you actually read, or do you just make half-baked assumptions whenever it looks like somebody disagrees with you? I never said that the germinites were a tactical consideration, or something under the control of any of the powers. I mused on whether they would be able to travel through the portal and thrive on the Earth, and the long-term problems that may cause. "Long-term", in this sense, was on the order of decades in my mind. I also pointed out that they were the reason for the unusual technological patterns. People have denied this in favor of the usual stratagem of making everybody in fiction at any time to be incredibly stupid, indeed with congenital brain damage, because of this disease of refusing to concede a power that could stand up to modern Earth on anything, except in space travel. But let's think as to why exactly people on an airship might not use weapons that are vulnerable to the germinites. Now, it seems implausible, I'll admit, but there's a chance that they may just want to land, and be able to fight once they land.

Since when would bacteria be smart enough to travel through a portal?

Where is your source for these germinites? Do they require the mist? Why do imperial soldiers on airships still use Renaissance era weapons when they're above ground?

[Bakustra]

1. Still hasn't been proved that bacteria can be controlled by FF12 armies; on the contrary, if they could then they wouldn't be bothered by them would they?

2. Why are imperials on the airships still using medieval and Rennesaince era weapons?

Can you actually read, or do you just make half-baked assumptions whenever it looks like somebody disagrees with you? I never said that the germinites were a tactical consideration, or something under the control of any of the powers. I mused on whether they would be able to travel through the portal and thrive on the Earth, and the long-term problems that may cause. "Long-term", in this sense, was on the order of decades in my mind. I also pointed out that they were the reason for the unusual technological patterns. People have denied this in favor of the usual stratagem of making everybody in fiction at any time to be incredibly stupid, indeed with congenital brain damage, because of this disease of refusing to concede a power that could stand up to modern Earth on anything, except in space travel. But let's think as to why exactly people on an airship might not use weapons that are vulnerable to the germinites. Now, it seems implausible, I'll admit, but there's a chance that they may just want to land, and be able to fight once they land.

Since when would bacteria be smart enough to travel through a portal?

Where is your source for these germinites? Do they require the mist? Why do imperial soldiers on airships still use Renaissance era weapons when they're above ground?

Now, I'm wondering whether I've ventured into a parallel universe or something. But the more likely explanation is that you still don't bother reading what I'm saying. So, to answer the questions that I didn't already answer:

I assume that the portal allows airflow, and has a ground connection. So either way, the germinites could drift or wander in. So even bacteria are smart enough to drift or move, yes. It's been that way since at least the evolution of the flagellum and cilia.

The source is Sage Knowledge 10, found by defeating 7 Mimeos, which is handily transcribed on this page of the Final Fantasy wiki.

They require Mist, probably. However, if you're going to smarm it up with "well there's no mist on Earth", then this is just an excuse for you to masturbate to the thought of people in craaazy outfits getting shot by US Marines. If that is the case, then the only thing that can be said is that you should seek psychological counseling.

[Vendetta]

You want me to accept a totally unsupported position just because. Which is more plausible beings whose very existence can be questioned, EASILY I might add, or the simple fact that they just suck at making combustion engines.

Except they can make far more advanced engines using magicite.

The fact that there are no magicite powered land vehicles supports the fact that there is something which restricts their use on land and not in air.

And guess what, the game itself tells us what that is, germinites.

[Bakustra]

You want me to accept a totally unsupported position just because. Which is more plausible beings whose very existence can be questioned, EASILY I might add, or the simple fact that they just suck at making combustion engines.

Except they can make far more advanced engines using magicite.

The fact that there are no magicite powered land vehicles supports the fact that there is something which restricts their use on land and not in air.

And guess what, the game itself tells us what that is, germinites.

Technically, there could be- the entry says that animal transport is preferred for long distances, and we do see things like hoverbikes, but only in dense cities.

[Gunhead]

You want me to accept a totally unsupported position just because. Which is more plausible beings whose very existence can be questioned, EASILY I might add, or the simple fact that they just suck at making combustion engines.

Except they can make far more advanced engines using magicite.

The fact that there are no magicite powered land vehicles supports the fact that there is something which restricts their use on land and not in air.

And guess what, the game itself tells us what that is, germinites.

Well ok then. How much more advanced exactly? This to me looks like magicite is the defining factor. Is it a metal as it self or do they mix it with other materials?
Based on this I would still like to now is there any other facts that support the idea of little metal eating bacteria, aside from that piece of text that was posted earlier?
It's not really important though, based on this there's is something in Ivalice's air that eats away magicite engines. Are only magicire engines affected or is there data to support the notion that non magicite engines would be affected too?

Gunhead

[Star Wars 888]

Can you actually read, or do you just make half-baked assumptions whenever it looks like somebody disagrees with you? I never said that the germinites were a tactical consideration, or something under the control of any of the powers. I mused on whether they would be able to travel through the portal and thrive on the Earth, and the long-term problems that may cause. "Long-term", in this sense, was on the order of decades in my mind. I also pointed out that they were the reason for the unusual technological patterns. People have denied this in favor of the usual stratagem of making everybody in fiction at any time to be incredibly stupid, indeed with congenital brain damage, because of this disease of refusing to concede a power that could stand up to modern Earth on anything, except in space travel. But let's think as to why exactly people on an airship might not use weapons that are vulnerable to the germinites. Now, it seems implausible, I'll admit, but there's a chance that they may just want to land, and be able to fight once they land.

Since when would bacteria be smart enough to travel through a portal?

Where is your source for these germinites? Do they require the mist? Why do imperial soldiers on airships still use Renaissance era weapons when they're above ground?[/quote]

Now, I'm wondering whether I've ventured into a parallel universe or something. But the more likely explanation is that you still don't bother reading what I'm saying. So, to answer the questions that I didn't already answer:

I assume that the portal allows airflow, and has a ground connection. So either way, the germinites could drift or wander in. So even bacteria are smart enough to drift or move, yes. It's been that way since at least the evolution of the flagellum and cilia.

The source is Sage Knowledge 10, found by defeating 7 Mimeos, which is handily transcribed on this page of the Final Fantasy wiki.

They require Mist, probably. However, if you're going to smarm it up with "well there's no mist on Earth", then this is just an excuse for you to masturbate to the thought of people in craaazy outfits getting shot by US Marines. If that is the case, then the only thing that can be said is that you should seek psychological counseling.[/quote]



1. You're still dodging the question as to why soldiers on airships still used Renaissance era airships and how airships survived the germinites when they're often shown parking on the ground.

2. "they require mist, probably" - yep. You're "justification" is not really a justification at all. The magical mist really doesn't exist on Earth. No, I'm not saying this because I want to masturbate to US marines pwning FF12 soldiers; I'm saying this because it's true, and it destroys that part of your argument.