ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

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Big Orange
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ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Big Orange »

Here's a barmy idea pushed by Crispin Blunt, a Tory (Dum-da-duh! Surprise!), who thinks inmates serving at her majesty's pleasure could be used as cheap quasi-gulag labour:
Prison factory plan 'to cut reoffending', says minister

Private firms could be encouraged to set up factories in prisons, under government proposals.

Prisons minister Crispin Blunt says he wants "tens of thousands" of prisoners to take "meaningful" work to help cut reoffending rates.

Part of their wages would go to their victims, their families and upkeep.

But it must be handled carefully to avoid it looking as if "legitimate" jobs were being stolen, he told a Tory conference fringe meeting.

The coalition government is committed to cutting the prison population through fewer shorter sentences and improving the rehabilitation of offenders through better training.

The Ministry of Justice plans to enact dormant legislation, the 1996 Prisons Earnings Act, which would allow prisoners to be paid more than the average of £8 a week those that work currently receive but for deductions to be made from their wages.

At the moment they are not allowed to pay taxes and are paid "cash in hand".

Mr Blunt said one idea his officials were exploring was for a portion of their increased wages to be paid into a "pot" that they could gain access to if they stay out of trouble for two years after leaving prison.

He said that although thousands of inmates in British jails worked, in jobs ranging from printing to making furniture, far too many did nothing at all.

"The public don't want prisoners lying about being idle," he told the meeting, adding that getting into the habit of working was vital if they were going to get jobs in the outside world.

"The aim has got to be to maximise the opportunities for prisoners, having got themselves clean and got themselves some training, to have the best possible chance of going straight when they come out.

"And to get them into a decent hard working environment in prison where we maximise whatever return we can get, through whatever schemes we can get into prison, either through the voluntary sector, or preferably through businesses, to actually make effective use of their time while they are in prison has got to be a good thing."

'Stealing jobs'

He said he wanted Britain to be a "global leader" in inviting businesses to come into prisons to take advantage of the "effectively free labour".

"Many other countries have tried this and getting businesses to work in partnership in prisons, in prison and with prison labour, and to actually be able to make an economic return is extremely difficult," he told the Howard League for Penal Reform meeting in Birmingham.

But he also said that, in the current climate, it was important that the government's plans were not seen as "stealing legitimate people's jobs", suggesting prisoners could be put to work making products which are currently imported from outside the EU.

His plans received the backing of the Howard League for Penal Reform, which argues that the coalition should go further by allowing prisoners to pay taxes to the state.

Under the current system, prisoners were mostly paid "cash in hand", said Howard League director Frances Crook, which she said only taught them that work was "badly paid, boring, it's OK to fiddle the system, crime is better and it pays more".

She said the Prison Service had blocked efforts to get prisoners in a pilot scheme run by the charity to work and pay taxes, as it would mean they would be entitled to employment rights.

"I am so pleased we are getting somewhere at last," Mrs Crook told the meeting.

She said prisons were not set up to be places of employment, apart from in gardening, laundry and catering, which is why it was important to get private firms on board.
BBC

America's penal system has inmates inducted into work, making goods from household furniture to US Military infantryman helmets, for some years now, with such "upstanding" Anglo-American companies like BP even contracting cons to clean up its mess (at the expense of locals).
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Laughing very hard at the name "Mrs. Crook" in that article.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Zaune »

I have decidedly mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, anything has to be better than simply warehousing offenders for however long they've been sent down for -usually with absolutely nothing to do but stare at the wall, or if they're very lucky watch daytime television- and then kicking them out with exactly as many useful job and life skills as they had going in; i.e. none whatsoever. It also might help break down some of the perhaps understandable prejudice against employing people with criminal records.

On the other hand, the phrase "effectively free labour" sounds somewhat ominous to say the least. Are prisoners going to be paid the national minimum wage, minus a reasonable deduction towards the cost of keeping them detained? (Not the full cost, of course; I don't have the figures at hand, but to my imperfect recollection keeping someone in prison costs damn near as much as the equivalent weekly rate to stay at the Hilton.) Are they going to be subject to a reasonable cap on working hours with adequate rest periods? Who is going to be responsible for ensuring workplace safety?
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Kodiak »

Big Orange wrote:America's penal system has inmates inducted into work, making goods from household furniture to US Military infantryman helmets, for some years now, with such "upstanding" Anglo-American companies like BP even contracting cons to clean up its mess (at the expense of locals).
I always thought that inmates who worked in prison did so voluntarily as they could earn money to buy things in prison (i.e. cigarettes, junk food, etc) and therefore no laws were being broken. I've even seen on television inmates used for customer service call centers.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Mr. Tickle »

Are prisoners going to be paid the national minimum wage, minus a reasonable deduction towards the cost of keeping them detained?
National Minimum Wage doesn't apply to someone in prison, they could be paid nothing and the law wouldn't apply to them.

For the idea, it's a bit gimicky if you ask me and seems more like newspaper friendly policy idea. Plus I'm not sure what sort of work they could actually do without complaints that jobs are being taken away from the general market.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Anything is better then just having people rot in prison cells slowly going insane, though I'd favor growing food for the prison over private factories, but that’d probably not practical in the UK due to the land required around the prison.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Uraniun235 »

Kodiak wrote:
Big Orange wrote:America's penal system has inmates inducted into work, making goods from household furniture to US Military infantryman helmets, for some years now, with such "upstanding" Anglo-American companies like BP even contracting cons to clean up its mess (at the expense of locals).
I always thought that inmates who worked in prison did so voluntarily as they could earn money to buy things in prison (i.e. cigarettes, junk food, etc) and therefore no laws were being broken. I've even seen on television inmates used for customer service call centers.
The 13th amendment of the US Constitution explicitly states that "involuntary servitude" is still permissible as part of a sentence handed down to a convicted criminal. Of course, subsequent federal or state laws could restrict such sentences as desired.


As for the UK, I have no idea what their laws say concerning what prisoners can be compelled to do.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Zaune »

Mr. Tickle wrote:Plus I'm not sure what sort of work they could actually do without complaints that jobs are being taken away from the general market.
That's one good reason to pay them the same rate of pay as everyone else; no basis for accusations of undercutting the general labour market. There's also the positive reinforcement that comes of getting an honest day's pay in return for an honest day's work, as opposed to the negative reinforcement of working all day with no incentive save the threat of sanctions.

Plus there's ethical issues about, you know, renting prisoners out to private interests as forced labour.
Uraniun235 wrote:The 13th amendment of the US Constitution explicitly states that "involuntary servitude" is still permissible as part of a sentence handed down to a convicted criminal. Of course, subsequent federal or state laws could restrict such sentences as desired.

As for the UK, I have no idea what their laws say concerning what prisoners can be compelled to do.
Good question actually. It's certainly possible to extract x number of hours of unpaid work as an alternative to incarceration, and prisoners are expected to do most of the routine care and maintenance work around the prison itself, but I have no idea if there's any specific legislation either way.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Kanastrous »

Is there a specific moral distinction between instructing a prisoner to sit in his cell, vs instructing that prisoner to spend his time performing useful, non-dangerous work? Why is requiring that the time be utilized in some relatively safe, useful way less moral than insisting that said prisoner sit on their bunk doing nothing? The state is obliged to expend resources on the prisoner's food, clothing, housing, medical care, etc, so why should there not be a reciprocal obligation on the prisoner's part to do something useful, for the state?
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Temujin »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Anything is better then just having people rot in prison cells slowly going insane, though I'd favor growing food for the prison over private factories, but that’d probably not practical in the UK due to the land required around the prison.
I've always felt the prison system should as self sufficient as possible, directly by growing it's own food or indirectly by having inmates do jobs that can offset cost of running the prison instead of being a drain on the taxpayer. It could also be structured in such a way to provide job training and even a little pay for inmates so that when they get out they have a real chance to start anew. Obviously you have to avoid abuses, but the current system in the US is rife with numerous problems anyway.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by mr friendly guy »

Why don't we just have them manning call centres. All this outsourcing to India with people who while they speak english, they don't understand the local terminology. For example to verify your identity we ask for the pin code of your state? At which point I was going WTF? Afterwards I think she meant the postcode of my suburb, but these little problems crop up.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Temujin »

Not a bad idea. Hell, I remember when call center jobs were (briefly) big in the US before they got outsourced. They were a decent source of income for a lot of people, especially young people, for a little while.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Samuel »

Temujin wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Anything is better then just having people rot in prison cells slowly going insane, though I'd favor growing food for the prison over private factories, but that’d probably not practical in the UK due to the land required around the prison.
I've always felt the prison system should as self sufficient as possible, directly by growing it's own food or indirectly by having inmates do jobs that can offset cost of running the prison instead of being a drain on the taxpayer. It could also be structured in such a way to provide job training and even a little pay for inmates so that when they get out they have a real chance to start anew. Obviously you have to avoid abuses, but the current system in the US is rife with numerous problems anyway.
Why grow food? Why not run an industry that earns the equivalent cost in food? Is there anything special about inmates growing their own food that wouldn't be better achieved by the equivalent gains from trade? I know it is weird to be defending specialization of labor when it comes to prisoners, but people seem to think having inmates grow food is a good plan for some odd reason.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Temujin »

Well there is some precedent for it, or at least their was. Though if it's actually more cost effective for them to do something else and trade the service for food I'm all for it. Come to think of it, modern mechanized farming techniques would be far more efficient than done via unskilled/minimal skilled prison laborers.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Elaro »

Guys? Aren't inmates offered something of an education in prison?

At least, they are up here in Canada.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Bakustra »

Elaro wrote:Guys? Aren't inmates offered something of an education in prison?

At least, they are up here in Canada.
American prisoners have a library. And that assumes that the wardens haven't decided that anybody using the library is a prison-cell lawyer and hints to the gangs to rough those people up. You see, Americans are tough on crime.

But British prisons do have such programs, but only about 20% of the people they are intended to help take advantage of them according to a House of Commons committee's study. Even the 40% of prisoners total that enroll according to the group that runs it are far from a majority. But this seems to be similar, since the educational programs are mixed between life-skills and vocational according to the article.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

I think the problem with inmate labor-for-profit is that it becomes open to corruption - the companies paying the government for the labor of the prisoners have an incentive to keep the prisons as stocked-to-the-gills as possible, which means doing everything in their power to increase arrests, increase sentences, and keep recidivism as high as possible.

Using inmates for call centers might work - they speak the lingo, presumably, since they'd at least be from the same country as the person calling, which means there'd be less frustration. Problem with that is that once they get out, they have a job skill that's inapplicable in the rest of the country, since nobody who's from the country is willing to pay them an honest wage for that skill-set when they can get away with paying a wage more akin to highway robbery to a bunch of Indians and not give a toss about whether or not their customers are happy with it.

Of course, you could just pass legislation enacting a very steep fee per call that has to get routed overseas to a call center, but then someone would scream protectionism... The problem's pretty steep, though, with no simple answer, and it touches on a lot of wider issues as well.

Ultimately, preserving the status quo might be best.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Temujin »

Some American prisons have such programs, but they seem to be rather limited, and there are issues as to who gets into these programs, staying in (gotta stay out of trouble, which is not always easy), and just being able to get studying done in what can be a chaotic environment.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Phantasee »

I'd rather go to prison than work in a call centre again. Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.

Fortunately I live in Canada so I can turn that dead hooker into an education.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Zaune »

Kanastrous wrote:Is there a specific moral distinction between instructing a prisoner to sit in his cell, vs instructing that prisoner to spend his time performing useful, non-dangerous work? Why is requiring that the time be utilized in some relatively safe, useful way less moral than insisting that said prisoner sit on their bunk doing nothing? The state is obliged to expend resources on the prisoner's food, clothing, housing, medical care, etc, so why should there not be a reciprocal obligation on the prisoner's part to do something useful, for the state?
None whatsoever, and if Mr Blunt were talking about forming working parties of prisoners to mend the roads, unblock the drains and pick up litter for the county council then I'd be all for it.
But notice the part where he's talking about inviting British businesses into prisons to take advantage of "effectively free labour", whatever that might mean.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Kanastrous »

I wouldn't care to see prisoners working call centers, at least, call centers where the operators ask for things like addresses, phone numbers, account numbers, social security information, even the minimal personal data one uses to order pizza - really, anything that a call-center person asks for, at all. Who in their right mind would want to set up a pipeline to convey personal data straight into prisons? Have we not heard of identity theft, or fraud?
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Phantasee »

Well, whatever criminal activity thy were up to before didn't do them any good so they might as well learn some new skills.

Although, at that point you might as well outsource your prisons to Nigeria.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Raw Shark »

There are still phone jobs in the USA, for any situation in which the person on the phone needs to speak and understand idiomatic English. The last time I applied for one, I was denied despite extensive experience because they were only taking referrals from the penal system. Yes, it was an entire call center staffed with ex-cons. Another of my phone jobs was at a place that was strongly incented but not required to hire ex-cons, where most of my coworkers and my boss had done some hard time. Phone work is useful job experience for prisoners.

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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Zaune »

Kanastrous wrote:I wouldn't care to see prisoners working call centers, at least, call centers where the operators ask for things like addresses, phone numbers, account numbers, social security information, even the minimal personal data one uses to order pizza - really, anything that a call-center person asks for, at all. Who in their right mind would want to set up a pipeline to convey personal data straight into prisons? Have we not heard of identity theft, or fraud?
Depends what they were previously convicted of, I suppose. A career burglar or some nutjob who's in for GBH likely wouldn't have a clue how to use such information themselves, and preventing them from passing the data into the hands of someone with the means and opportunity to profit off it shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.

Then again, preventing prisoners from getting hold of narcotics shouldn't be an insurmountable problem either, but we can't seem to manage that in this country.
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Re: ConDems Plan Factory Prisons.

Post by Kanastrous »

Nope, sorry, I don't care what someone is in for, they have zero business being granted access to that kind of information. Maybe a particular specific prisoner won't know what to with a given set of data; what's to stop him from communicating that data to other prisoners who *can* make use of it?
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