The Dyson Sphere

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-02-20 01:44pm

I'm curious, is there any cannon or official information available regading the dyson sphere? Anything other than trekkie delusions? What is the deal with that thing.... I mean it is appx. 2 AU acrossin the middle of federation space, there has to be something on it. anyone?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-20 02:45pm

Chalk it up to standard Fed procedure: it isn't mentioned unless they are actually directly dealing with it.

It goes without saying that it was never mentioned prior to "Relics" since the writers hadn't come up with the idea yet and there was only a bit more than one season left of TNG after "Relics". Don't know if its mentioned in DS9 at all and it wouldn't be relevant to anything in Voyager on the other side of the galaxy.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-02-20 03:08pm

Darth Servo wrote:Chalk it up to standard Fed procedure: it isn't mentioned unless they are actually directly dealing with it.

It goes without saying that it was never mentioned prior to "Relics" since the writers hadn't come up with the idea yet and there was only a bit more than one season left of TNG after "Relics". Don't know if its mentioned in DS9 at all and it wouldn't be relevant to anything in Voyager on the other side of the galaxy.

There could have been. They could have discovered another one, maybe this one still inhabited. It would have been *gasp* continunity and *gasp* not another shitty holodeck malfunction episode.

Baron Mordo · Post by **Baron Mordo** » 2003-02-20 03:24pm

Anybody who found it would have investigated, and fallen prey to the same fate as the Jenolan.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-20 05:01pm

Baron Mordo wrote:Anybody who found it would have investigated, and fallen prey to the same fate as the Jenolan.

Anyone who is stupid enough not to notice the large tractor beam emmitters and hail the thing before investigating and who's ships are as weak as Federation ones that is.

IOW, anyone in the Federation would have suffered the same fate, but don't extend that characteristic to anyone else.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-02-20 06:39pm

It probably was a llowed to drift on. The Feddies should have sent three Obreiths to study it.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-02-22 01:32pm

Starfleet has dispatched two science vessels to study the Dyson Sphere - Picard

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-02-22 01:40pm

Trek lore is full of fascinating things that they find and then dispatch science vessels to study. I think it is a testament to their pitiful scientific skills that they never seem to learn anything from these finds.

The Federation has never invented anything since Zafram Cochrane worked out warp drive, and he predates the Federation. Transporters, replicators, all of it turns out to be Vulcan hand-me-downs which they simply polished and refined over the centuries.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-02-22 01:59pm

I don't think we know about phasers yet.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-22 02:59pm

Are transporters hand me downs from the Vulcans? I would think they would be more stable if they were.

Earth also developed its only newer warp engines (not a new breakout technology just a further refinement), the weapons they use in Enterprise are Earth designed and built and so is force field technology.

I think your assumption that the Vulcans give the Federation all of their good tech (or other races of Vulcan level) isn't entirely accurate although it does seem preferable to the Earth catching up in such a short time because they are just so spiffy (since Humans are just that good).

Lord Edam · Post by **Lord Edam** » 2003-02-22 03:30pm

TheDarkling wrote:Are transporters hand me downs from the Vulcans? I would think they would be more stable if they were.

Doubtful.

Given their obsession with not compromising pre-warp civilisations, if Vulcans had transporters they would've used them when they picked up T'Pol's grandmother in Carbon Creek in the early sixties, rather than sending a shuttle down to the planet.

Also, in Vanishing Point we hear the first human transport was in 2146, in Wisconsin, over 100m, unsuccesfuly. Of course, this was part of hoshi's 'dream' when she was stuck in the pattern buffer, so it might not mean anything.

I think earth developed their own phase pistols/cannons as well. The vulcans really don't like humans having as much technology as they do, so I can't see them giving away phase pistols when the humans have their own plasma rifles that are just as good.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-23 01:05pm

Lord Edam wrote:Given their obsession with not compromising pre-warp civilisations, if Vulcans had transporters they would've used them when they picked up T'Pol's grandmother in Carbon Creek in the early sixties, rather than sending a shuttle down to the planet.

There are other reasons not to use transporters. For all you know, there was some kind of goofy ore in the hills; how many times have the Feds used shuttles in the show, despite having transporters?

Also, in Vanishing Point we hear the first human transport was in 2146, in Wisconsin, over 100m, unsuccesfuly. Of course, this was part of hoshi's 'dream' when she was stuck in the pattern buffer, so it might not mean anything.

Haven't the Vulcans been carefully spoon-feeding tech to the humans rather than simply giving it all to them at once? This would be consistent with that.

I think earth developed their own phase pistols/cannons as well. The vulcans really don't like humans having as much technology as they do, so I can't see them giving away phase pistols when the humans have their own plasma rifles that are just as good.

Nevertheless, the humans DO eventually reach the Vulcans' level, and the Vulcans are still regarded as superior scientific minds. This would seem rather odd if humans were able to independently duplicate the effect of thousands of years of Vulcan warp-era technological development (remember how long it's been since the Romulans left) in the space of a century or two. If that were the case, you'd think humans everywhere would be full of sneering contempt for the haughty Vulcans and their feeble minds.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-23 01:46pm

Nevertheless, the humans DO eventually reach the Vulcans' level, and the Vulcans are still regarded as superior scientific minds. This would seem rather odd if humans were able to independently duplicate the effect of thousands of years of Vulcan warp-era technological development (remember how long it's been since the Romulans left)

Could not the Romulans have left in generational sublight ships? unless it was confirmed those ships were warp driven.

in the space of a century or two. If that were the case, you'd think humans everywhere would be full of sneering contempt for the haughty Vulcans and their feeble minds.

Well actually it was mentioned in a recent Ent episode that the Vulcan Science Academy is rather resistant to unorthodox methods and theories (like time travel for example).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-23 01:54pm

With good reason. Casuality paradox mean time travel = bullshit.

I'm with the Vulcan Science Academy.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-23 02:00pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Nevertheless, the humans DO eventually reach the Vulcans' level, and the Vulcans are still regarded as superior scientific minds. This would seem rather odd if humans were able to independently duplicate the effect of thousands of years of Vulcan warp-era technological development (remember how long it's been since the Romulans left)
Could not the Romulans have left in generational sublight ships? unless it was confirmed those ships were warp driven.

The fact that they passed over numerous habitable planets on their way to Romulus and Remus indicates that either they were warp-driven or inconceivably stupid.

in the space of a century or two. If that were the case, you'd think humans everywhere would be full of sneering contempt for the haughty Vulcans and their feeble minds.
Well actually it was mentioned in a recent Ent episode that the Vulcan Science Academy is rather resistant to unorthodox methods and theories (like time travel for example).

That only proves the point: they're obviously still more knowledgeable in some ways, since the humans' disregard for the timeline has already produced hundreds of thousands of marginally divergent timelines (obviously split off very recently, considering the common existence of the E-D) by the time of "Parallels".

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-23 03:05pm

The fact that they passed over numerous habitable planets on their way to Romulus and Remus indicates that either they were warp-driven or inconceivably stupid

Maybe they did stop off remember they were a few offshoots of the Romulans settled in what is now Federation space (the Debruun) as well as some long abandoned Romulan worlds, at the point they left Vulcan they were still a savage and divided people (although that is according to the Vulcans) and thus its possible the convoy kept splitting off and settling until what we now call the Romulans grew in power and unified the various "clans".

It is idle speculation but little else makes sense considering the Romulans simply abandoned some worlds and even had their own off shoot race.

That only proves the point: they're obviously still more knowledgeable in some ways, since the humans' disregard for the timeline has already produced hundreds of thousands of marginally divergent timelines (obviously split off very recently, considering the common existence of the E-D) by the time of "Parallels".

No I'm sorry I wasn't clear they don't believe timetravel is possible even when presented with evidence, also parellels doesn't display multiple timelines as most people often assert the reason for those multiple universes was given in the episode.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-23 03:45pm

TheDarkling wrote:
The fact that they passed over numerous habitable planets on their way to Romulus and Remus indicates that either they were warp-driven or inconceivably stupid
Maybe they did stop off remember they were a few offshoots of the Romulans settled in what is now Federation space (the Debruun) as well as some long abandoned Romulan worlds, at the point they left Vulcan they were still a savage and divided people (although that is according to the Vulcans) and thus its possible the convoy kept splitting off and settling until what we now call the Romulans grew in power and unified the various "clans".

Multi-generational spacecraft (arks) do not just stop off at a planet and then decide to pick up again; they're one-shot deals. The only thing that makes sense is a warp drive of some sort.

No I'm sorry I wasn't clear they don't believe timetravel is possible even when presented with evidence, also parellels doesn't display multiple timelines as most people often assert the reason for those multiple universes was given in the episode.

No, the Federation's interpretation for the timelines was given in the episode. Considering these are the same idiots who think that the mathematical laws of probability can be altered technologically, a "fissure" can be found in a mathematically determined radius, and sonic weapons can be used in space, I think we all know what that's worth.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-23 04:32pm

I did say the convoy could split up nice of you to ignore that though, the only other option of earth just be that amazing that they can close the gap with the Vulcans seems very odd.

On the second issue - whatever we have the argument before and I prefer to air on the side of canon and none galaxy wide ignorance of their own universe.

The theory they gave is commmon in scifi (because it exists as a theory and gives good license to do a What if? episode) and you really have no reason to over rule what they said other than because you want to - thats not a good enough reason for me im afraid.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-23 04:36pm

TheDarkling wrote:I did say the convoy could split up nice of you to ignore that though, the only other option of earth just be that amazing that they can close the gap with the Vulcans seems very odd.

And why would they split up? Weakness in numbers? How brilliant. Do you know how many DECADES or CENTURIES they'd be adding onto their trip without warp technology if they decide to skip over inhabitable planets on the way? What motivated them? Insanity?

On the second issue - whatever we have the argument before and I prefer to air on the side of canon and none galaxy wide ignorance of their own universe.

Canon is ignorance of their own universe, hence the incidents I pointed out.

The theory they gave is commmon in scifi (because it exists as a theory and gives good license to do a What if? episode) and you really have no reason to over rule what they said other than because you want to - thats not a good enough reason for me im afraid.

Ah, the infamous "but it's not enough to personally convince me argument"; last resort of the weak.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-23 04:52pm

Darth Wong wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:I did say the convoy could split up nice of you to ignore that though, the only other option of earth just be that amazing that they can close the gap with the Vulcans seems very odd.
And why would they split up? Weakness in numbers? How brilliant. Do you know how many DECADES or CENTURIES they'd be adding onto their trip without warp technology if they decide to skip over inhabitable planets on the way? What motivated them? Insanity?

Well what caused the technological reversion that caused them to little more than a match for a newborn Earth space empire?
Or prehaps the Romulans had the same odd technological stagnation as the Bajorans and simply remained static for 2000 years and then suddenly kicked it nito high gear so they could keep up with the Federation.

While skipping planets makes little sense it makes little sense even if they had warp drive since I doubt moving a huge amount of people is an easy task.

On the second issue - whatever we have the argument before and I prefer to air on the side of canon and none galaxy wide ignorance of their own universe.
Canon is ignorance of their own universe, hence the incidents I pointed out.

No that would you using real life science to override canon, tell me why do you allow inter breeding between radically different "species" or warp drive etc?

The theory they gave is commmon in scifi (because it exists as a theory and gives good license to do a What if? episode) and you really have no reason to over rule what they said other than because you want to - thats not a good enough reason for me im afraid.
Ah, the infamous "but it's not enough to personally convince me argument"; last resort of the weak.

Ah, do tell me where would snide charcater attacks rank?

I have a fundamental difference of opinion on the matter just because I don't have the rampant egomania to declare myself as the sole arbiter of right and wrong I come under fire for being "weak", well I hope you will excuse me while I don't really care.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-23 07:00pm

TheDarkling wrote:Well what caused the technological reversion that caused them to little more than a match for a newborn Earth space empire?

No technological reversion was necessary. They simply did not advance; they had already approached the end of their rope. Watch "Relics"; there has been precious little change since TOS.

Or prehaps the Romulans had the same odd technological stagnation as the Bajorans and simply remained static for 2000 years and then suddenly kicked it nito high gear so they could keep up with the Federation.

Who said anything about kicking it into high gear or trying to keep up with the Federation? You're acting as though there's been major technological advancement during that period, when there hasn't.

While skipping planets makes little sense it makes little sense even if they had warp drive since I doubt moving a huge amount of people is an easy task.

With warp drive, you must obviously travel a much greater distance to be assured of effective isolation from the parent world. It is quite clear why they might choose to travel to a more distant world. Face it; you have no explanation while I do.

No that would you using real life science to override canon, tell me why do you allow inter breeding between radically different "species" or warp drive etc?

Wrong, dumb-ass. This has been dealt with countless times before. No canon is altered in any way; it is only being interpreted differently. You choose the most simple-minded possible interpretation, while I choose one that makes sense. How silly of me.

Ah, the infamous "but it's not enough to personally convince me argument"; last resort of the weak.
Ah, do tell me where would snide charcater attacks rank?

How is it a "character attack" to criticize your argument?

I have a fundamental difference of opinion on the matter just because I don't have the rampant egomania to declare myself as the sole arbiter of right and wrong I come under fire for being "weak", well I hope you will excuse me while I don't really care.

"Rampant egomania", eh? Nice non-rebuttal. See your previous accusation of character attacks, then look up the words "pot", "kettle", and "black".

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-02-23 07:34pm

Let's see....

How did humans develop a transporter, when they can't develop tractor beams, shields, photon torpedoes, a warp drive that can achieve warp 5, and proper sensors?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-23 07:39pm

Ah yes relics where you interpret

GEORDI
This Transporter is almost
identical to the ones we use on
the Enterprise.
(gestures to other
consoles)
The subspace radio and sensors
operate on the same basic
principles, and impulse engine
design hasn't changed much in two
hundred years.

to mean technology has not advanced - he says impulse and transporter tech are the same and that sensors and comms operate on the smae basic principles.

You ignore the fact that earlier in the episode scotty is shown to be out of touch, that Holodecks and Replicators have been invented/come on leaps and bounds, warp drives have improved, a method of stellar reformating has been invented, Quatum torps, Plasma phasers, Phase cloak, Tomographic imaging scanner, Data and other Soong type androids, metaphasic shielding (not technically a Federation invention altyhough the Federation furthers its development), Geordi's artificial eyes, replication of organic tissue, creation of wormholes, etc etc etc.

A Romulan ship 20 years out of time is amazed by the advancements Voyager carries, we know the Ent-D has massive advantages over the Ent-C (Ref Tasha's converstaion with Castilo (I think)).

You assertion that Federation technology has advanced as far as its going to go (and did so 100 years ago) based on a few technologies not changing is rather silly and based of flimsy evidence.

No of course the Romulan cloaks havent advanced and warp speeds haven't improved even thuogh once again the Federation express awe in the new Romulan cloaking abilites.

You interpret canon in a manner whcih places your interpretation over the interpretation of people more familiar with the laws of that universe and in the process you cause the idiocy of countless individuals to become canon fact - sorry no dice as I have already said I differ from you no this issue.

I wasn't saying you display Rampant egomania (although I think you often do) I was simply saying that myself agreeing to disagree on an issue shouldn't be described as weak (although I'm sure an unreasonable individual would see it as such) however as I suspected (well not really I should say knew) you would yuo can't concieve that anybody could possibly disagree with you and not be wrong.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-23 07:47pm

Lord Poe wrote:Let's see....

How did humans develop a transporter, when they can't develop tractor beams, shields, photon torpedoes, a warp drive that can achieve warp 5, and proper sensors?

Good question although Enterprise gives the impression that the Warp 5 project would have ready far quicker if the Vulcans hadn't kept roadblocking the human scientists by having the various earth governments reel them in.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-02-23 07:51pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:Let's see....

How did humans develop a transporter, when they can't develop tractor beams, shields, photon torpedoes, a warp drive that can achieve warp 5, and proper sensors?
Good question although Enterprise gives the impression that the Warp 5 project would have ready far quicker if the Vulcans hadn't kept roadblocking the human scientists by having the various earth governments reel them in.

This gives a whole new meaning to the term "C-Blocking...."