What is the firepower of the Andromeda universe?

[IvanTih]

Interested,only thing that I know are their great STL and FTL speeds.

[Thanas]

Luckily for you, the creators have given us written sources that explicitily override even on-screen visuals.

Basically, here goes:

A heavy sensor/kinetic attack drone can produce an explosion that can range from a few kilotons to a gigaton (depending on target struck, velocity of the drone and target etc)
A standard attack drone can make an attack that is far greater than that, though how much is not quantified. My gut tells me not more than two or three times that power.

Standard offensive missiles have a payload of 40MT. A ship can fire 3 of those in a second per tube, which to a ship like the andromeda works out to a strike of 120 missiles per second, or 4.800 MT per second, assuming all hit.

An alpha strike - i.e. a first salvo trying to inflict maximum damage - was rated at 20 GT of warheads in Belly of the Beast, though as that aired after RHW had left the show, the canonicity is in question.

Note that the Andromeda universe also has a number of weapons that are very hard to quantify:
- The A/P cannons on the Andromeda. Never used in battle in an episode we know of, so I think they are heavy, close-range weapons. Keep in mind that battle is usually held over distances of several light-seconds or even light-minutes. There is a quote floating on the web that a single A/P salvo would be more powerful than a missile salvo, but I have not been able to find the source.
- Nova bombs. We know they blow up suns. Other than that, we know nothing.
- Planet-busters. We know that both the Commonwealth and the Nietzcheans are able to produce bombs that can rip apart whole planets. One of those bombs might have been seen in the (IMO non-canon) episode "Point of the Spear" of Season 3.
- Point singularity projectors. They seem to work better against bigger targets (like Planets, which they can blow up with a single salvo) than against ships.


But generally, the main advantages of the Andromedaverse are:
- ludriciously fast FTL (though it has its own list of drawbacks)
- WMD
- AIs that are master at EW, hacking and directing missile salvos
- enormous combat range, outranging every SW battle seen up to today in movies and TV shows, as well as ST battles. From all Sci-fi shows out there, Andromeda seems to have the longest range by far

Drawbacks:
- No FTL sensors per se (okay, they got very fast, very long-range sensors, but still)
- Slipstream can be unpredictable and may allow you to get from a galaxy to another within a second, or it may force you to have the same trip take three months.
- Shields do not exist (granted, the Andromeda can take enormous amounts of punishment, well within the GT range, yet shields still do not exist).



That is about the closest to a summary I can give you.

[Sarevok]

Don't forget that typical combat speeds for ships in Andromeda is often over half of lightspeed. Weapons in many universes capable of damage to a High Guard vessel would never actually hit one. Andromeda not only is a top dog in visual scifi FTL speed but is also arguably the most fastest and longest range in STL combat as well, by a very very wide margin.

"- Shields do not exist (granted, the Andromeda can take enormous amounts of punishment, well within the GT range, yet shields still do not exist)."

I recall in one Season One episode whose name defies me at the moment the Andromeda was actually hiding inside a star. Although the heat would have eventually destroyed the ship it would be several hours before the vessel began to take damage.

[Thanas]

Don't forget that typical combat speeds for ships in Andromeda is often over half of lightspeed. Weapons in many universes capable of damage to a High Guard vessel would never actually hit one. Andromeda not only is a top dog in visual scifi FTL speed but is also arguably the most fastest and longest range in STL combat as well, by a very very wide margin.

Actually, warships move at 30-50 PSL (percentage of light speed). So not over half of lightspeed, but still very, very impressive, especially with the stealth equipment. Combat in Andromeda seems to always go the way of whoever can get accurate sensor data and then make the right decision in a matter of seconds. If you are caught unprepared, you are usually already dead.

"- Shields do not exist (granted, the Andromeda can take enormous amounts of punishment, well within the GT range, yet shields still do not exist)."


I recall in one Season One episode whose name defies me at the moment the Andromeda was actually hiding inside a star. Although the heat would have eventually destroyed the ship it would be several hours before the vessel began to take damage.

You are talking about D minus zero. However, Andromeda was not hiding inside a star, she was hiding near it. How near we cannot determine, especially with visuals taking a backseat to the script and the dialogue. They went near that to fool the enemies sensors.

However, they never went into the star themselves, as evidenced when Dylan and the Holo of Andromeda are sunscreening in the observation deck - you can see the star in front of them, shining at him.

[Temujin]

The best online sources I know of are the Andromeda Wiki and the The All Systems University Library, which is one of the Wiki’s sources. Based on that (All quotes from the Wiki):

Regarding defenses, they use an active defense made up of Defensive Missiles

Defensive Missiles are the main defensive weapon against incoming offensive missiles in ship to ship combat and can also be used against enemy fighters. Defensive missiles are smaller missiles (about 1/3 of a kilogram), which move slower than offensive missiles (60 to 70 PSL), but with twice the acceleration. They have a range of only 5 to 10 light seconds.

Kinetic warheads do not carry an explosive payload, but rather rely on the fact that kinetic energy equals one-half mass times velocity-squared. Thus when they impact with a ship, they cause incredible damage, with many kilotons of energy.

and Point Defense Lasers (PDL).

Point Defense Lasers (PDLs) are tasked with neutralizing and suppressing incoming enemy ordinance and/or enemy fighters. On their own they can inflict a fair amount of damage on enemy ships. Ships such as the Andromeda Ascendant and Eureka Maru often use them and they apparently are mounted in turrets.

PDLs fire in the 30 to 50 megawatt range, with about 4 light seconds of range.

Passive defense is done via Ablative Armor:

Ablative Armor is a dumb passive armor that is designed to be absorb the kinetic energy and explosive energy from a weapon or interstellar object such as a bolide impacting on it. It is designed to be destroyed in the process, but also does an extremely good job at protecting whatever it is mounted on. It is a type of passive armor, as it sits son the hull and accepts impacts. Ablative armor is extremely effective and simple to manufacture, repair, and rebuild because of the materials and simplicity of design, as it is usually just a slab of a basic material such as iron, titanium, or ceramic. Because of those attributes, Commonwealth ships such as the Andromeda Ascendant and other large vessels use ablative armor because they can easily make, use, and repair it on board, and the materials to manufacture it can be easily obtained through mining an asteroid. Smaller ships use it because it is cheap but strong and effective.

Ablative armor is usually made out of an extremely strong ceramic over all other materials because of the ease of fabricating the plating. The ceramic covers a layer of high tensile alloy that is supposed to reinforce the ceramic layer below it so that the ceramic takes as much of the impact energy as possible, and dissipates it. When something hits the armor, the armor turns into plasma because of the amount of energy directed on that one point. The plasma is thousands of degrees, and the transition that the solid armor makes from a solid state to a plasmic state allows for much of the directed energy of the object hitting the armor to be dissipated. The plasma created by the armor and object would normally blow through the ships hull and instantly vaporize the contents of the vessel, likely destroying it entirely. This is where the alloy beneath the ceramic plate comes into play. The plate of alloy shields the hull of the ship, and forces the plasma to flow over the section of exposed alloy and disappear into space. Thus, the alloy is usually able to completely dissipate the energy and plasma that comes from the weapon and protect the ship.

This type of armor is widely used on smaller vessels, both civilian and military, and is selectively placed upon larger vessels such as the Balance of Judgement, Andromeda Ascendant, and Torchships. It is widely used on small vessels such as Garuda class vessels, and freighters such as the Maru because it is cheap, easy to replace, repair, and maintain and provides a large amount of protection from both weapons and interstellar debris. Larger vessels use it selectively because they have the luxury of choosing from different armors; and they are also much bigger than an average stellar ship so they actually require more armor and certain armor in some places to protect from the larger amount of damage that they would take because of their size. Some larger vessels require more ablative armor on forward facing sections of their vessels to help deal with the almost constant impacts that are sustained from atoms and debris that are involved with interstellar travel. The armor is also used aboard drones, satellites, and space planes.

All of that helps explains how that can throw all that firepower around and still survive without shields.

No firepower listed for the AP Cannons just this:

The Anti-Proton Cannons are energy based weapons which fire at just under the speed of light (99 PSL), the Anti-Protons that hit the mass and destroy it on impact. An anti-proton cannon is not effective past 4 light seconds (1,200,000 Km /745,000 Miles).

As for planet busters, I remember the Nietzcheans' had a name, a "something" Charge I believe, though I can't find any reference to it. For actually destroying the planet, not just the surface - something well within a Glorious Heritage Class (The Andromeda Ascendant) cruiser's capability, I thought it was supposed to be a Nova bomb in "Point of the Spear", though I can't find any reference even in the episode's synopsis. Anyone have the time to rewatch the episode on Hulu and confirm that?

As for Nova Bombs themselves, they are technobabblely described to work as follows:

A nova bomb doesn't destroy a sun by "blowing it up" in the traditional sense. What occurs is that the warhead is more or less an anti-gravity device. It destroys the bonds of gravity that tightly pack the hydrogen of a star together. A sun's gravity exerts a tremendous amount of pressure on its molecules. Once the Nova Bomb removes those bonds, the hydrogen disperses in all directions, exploding and destroying everything in its path.

Considering they cause stars generally too small to naturally go supernova; and it might explain how it could be used as a planet buster, if that was actually the case in "Point of the Spear".

[Thanas]

The best online sources I know of are the Andromeda Wiki and the The All Systems University Library, which is one of the Wiki’s sources.

I suggest disregarding the wiki. It does not source anything and has about much worth as toilet paper.


For examples:

Defensive Missiles are the main defensive weapon against incoming offensive missiles in ship to ship combat and can also be used against enemy fighters. Defensive missiles are smaller missiles (about 1/3 of a kilogram)

Source for that?

, which move slower than offensive missiles (60 to 70 PSL),

true

but with twice the acceleration.

Source?

They have a range of only 5 to 10 light seconds.

Source?

PDLs fire in the 30 to 50 megawatt range, with about 4 light seconds of range.

Again, source?

Ablative Armor is a dumb passive armor that is designed to be absorb the kinetic energy and explosive energy from a weapon or interstellar object such as a bolide impacting on it. It is designed to be destroyed in the process, but also does an extremely good job at protecting whatever it is mounted on. It is a type of passive armor, as it sits son the hull and accepts impacts. Ablative armor is extremely effective and simple to manufacture, repair, and rebuild because of the materials and simplicity of design, as it is usually just a slab of a basic material such as iron, titanium, or ceramic. Because of those attributes, Commonwealth ships such as the Andromeda Ascendant and other large vessels use ablative armor because they can easily make, use, and repair it on board, and the materials to manufacture it can be easily obtained through mining an asteroid. Smaller ships use it because it is cheap but strong and effective.

I think this is in part based upon one of the official websites, but I cannot remember from where.

In any case, it is once again, completely unsourced.

The Anti-Proton Cannons are energy based weapons which fire at just under the speed of light (99 PSL)

Source?

, the Anti-Protons that hit the mass and destroy it on impact. An anti-proton cannon is not effective past 4 light seconds (1,200,000 Km /745,000 Miles).

Again, source?

As for planet busters, I remember the Nietzcheans' had a name, a "something" Charge I believe, though I can't find any reference to it. For actually destroying the planet, not just the surface - something well within a Glorious Heritage Class (The Andromeda Ascendant) cruiser's capability, I thought it was supposed to be a Nova bomb in "Point of the Spear", though I can't find any reference even in the episode's synopsis. Anyone have the time to rewatch the episode on Hulu and confirm that?

No need, I have that episode committed to memory. It is unknown whether it is a nova bomb. We never saw Nova bombs before. This has a typical WWII bomb shape, so it may be one, or it may not.

In any case, I doubt it was a Nova bomb simply because Nova bombs use technobabble to work on Suns. It is pretty illogical to suggest the same thing also works on rock.



So yeah, disregard the wiki. It is worthless.

[Temujin]

Being a wiki, I should have added "take with a grain of salt"; my bad.

Yeah, they don't do a good job tying their material to the actual sources, which they list as:

• * Every episode of the series
  * The special features of the DVDs, which includes cast interviews and in universe information, as they have been certified canon by directors and actors
  * The 4 books
  * And the website allsystems.org (now replaced by http://www.saveandromeda.com/allsystems/)*

I'm sure if you sifted through all of that you probably could confirm some of what they state, but than the citing of sources is the writers responsibility. Unfortunately, that's about all the readily available material that exists on the show.

As an aside, since Robert Hewitt Wolfe originally developed the show, I suppose some people might also question their definition of what constitutes canon, especially if it wasn't part of Wolfe's original vision and show bible, which he created according to Gordon Michael Woolvett.

GMW: You know, I am and I’m not. Gene Roddenberry was ingenious in his work and will always live on. [Co-executive producer and writer] Robert [Hewitt Wolfe] took that and ran with it and created and expanded this universe we are in with a show bible that was so good.

I remember hearing something about him taking it with him when he left, though that could just be hearsay.

[Thanas]

I'm sure if you sifted through all of that you probably could confirm some of what they state, but than the citing of sources is the writers responsibility. Unfortunately, that's about all the readily available material that exists on the show.

The problem is that I have seen and remember every episode of the show pretty well and I can not remember them stating the range of PDL, def. missiles etc.

As an aside, since Robert Hewitt Wolfe originally developed the show, I suppose some people might also question their definition of what constitutes canon,

I am going with RHW's definition of canon.

That said, when analyzing Andromeda I tend to throw out everything after RHW's exit, because the capabilities vary according to what the writer of the episode wanted. The Andromeda became more of a McGuffin than a ship with fixed capabilities, which it was before.

[Temujin]

I am going with RHW's definition of canon.

That said, when analyzing Andromeda I tend to throw out everything after RHW's exit, because the capabilities vary according to what the writer of the episode wanted. The Andromeda became more of a McGuffin than a ship with fixed capabilities, which it was before.

I agree, most of what came after his departure was shit. I certainly would like to have a copy of that bible Woolvett referred to though.

[Omeganian]

Actually, Dylan gave in the "Prince" episode a figure of 8 missiles per tube, 20 MT per missile, 40 tubes. However, a later episode stated "emptying tubes 1 through 200" - perhaps they upgraded from the decadent, pacifistic, Federation like Old Commonwealth's design.

[Thanas]

Actually, Dylan gave in the "Prince" episode a figure of 8 missiles per tube, 20 MT per missile, 40 tubes.

It was actually Rommie who said that.

Alexander:
So how many can she actually fire?
Rommie (hologram): 40 missile launchers, each firing 8 rounds per second
Alexander: 20 MT payload?
Dylan: Well, give or take...

You are correct.

I believe this is somewhat contradicted by other episode dialogue in another episode...I'll definitely have to rewatch the episodes in full when I try to start the Andromeda Analyzation project here...

However, a later episode stated "emptying tubes 1 through 200" - [7quote]

The Andromeda received a refit in S2, after which it had 60 tubes. However, the 200 number, if it is accurate, is probably another instance of the "Andromeda - the ship with weekly changing capabilities" syndrome of the later episodes.

perhaps they upgraded from the decadent, pacifistic, Federation like Old Commonwealth's design./quote]

Decadent and pacifistic? The Commonwealth was anything but. Heck, these were people who regarded it perfectly appectable to detonate MT level warheads to assassinate foreign dignitaries.

[Connor MacLeod]

In terms of actual performance they're not really all that impressive. A few hundred megawatts is what I reember from their reactors. They have some sort of magical mass-effect like "mass lightening" technology that allows them to generate their multi-megaton kinetic missiles and generate particle beams that move at .99c (although the actual AP cannons only fire a few grams here, thank you waybackmachine which is kiloton range or thereabouts.

They rely on their weird gravity magic (again like Mass Effect) to get alot of their impressive results (as well as to help do some of their more technobabble weapons like PSPs and Nova bombs)

Found this also"

Alright, the Andromeda, like any other ship, runs on hydrogen and anti-protons, or AP. The hydrogen combines with the AP, in controlled reactors, to create anti-matter/matter reactions or matter/anti-matter reactions, either way it makes no matter, but what it does make is power, for the ship; a few hundred megawatts. Most of the power is used to power the GMG which reduces the effective mass to just under a kilogram-
Lipp-Sett: Stop!
Harper: A smaller chunk of the power is used to accelerate more hydrogen in a dozen magneto-plasma dynamic drives which creates the thrust - a thrust of of half a million Newtons or so. SO! when your pushing a kilogram with half a million Newtons of thrust, it's a good idea to keep one hand on your valuables 'cos you never know when you just might run straight into some two-faced lying jerk!

Kinda meshes with some episodes, like the one where they first run into either the Pyrians or the Knights of Genetic purity (they mention gigawatta range weapons blasitng a starship hull apart rather nicely) an the fact the megawatt range PDL can sometimes do damage to starships.

The systems Commonwealth was around 1 million or so planets, and the High Guard had something like 500,000 warships of all classes (largest being the Glorius Heritage cruisers).

They do have light second/light minute engagement ranges, velocities in a fraction of c, and high accelerations, but alot of that is misleading in a vs context. They can throw out hundreds of MT range missiles for example, but typcially only a few of those are actually needed to destroy a XMC ("Mathematics of Tears") and in terms of actual penetration (from what I remember of comments made by the science advisor) it was actually overkill (which was why the ship is so spidery looking - they rely on overpenetration shootthrough and systems spread out through the ship to make it hard to damage, rather than resisting hits.) Part of the reason for the size and the insane rates of fire is because they need to rely on shotgun-style tactics (like the Honorverse) to ensure at least a few guaranteed hits, even with guided weapons. Also, missiles do not automatically ramp up to near-c velocities either, they need time to do that too (At least a few seconds).

The ship has higher acceleration and is extremely manuverable (can make a 180 degree flip or nearly so in seconds) but again it needs that stuff for the way it fights (they need to be hard to hit) since they lack FTL comms or sensors (lightspeed lag) of any kind. Which means that anyone who does have FTL sensors and/or more precise FTL can just go around Andromedaverse ships and their attacks. (again much like fighting hte Honorverse)

And slipstream is.. interesting. The potential to be insanely fast, but utterly inconsistent when it comes to precision (What was the line? "Slipstream isnt the best way to travel, its the only way?") Slipstream is not what we can call reliable - duration can vary, emergence points,) unless one uses very common or frequently travelled paths. Similar ot, but alot worse in some ways than the Warp (but also safer). I'm also pretty sure slipstream shares some of the same "can't use it close to strong gravity" limitations some other universes have, although how "close" is close I don't exactly remember.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Andromeda received a refit in S2, after which it had 60 tubes. However, the 200 number, if it is accurate, is probably another instance of the "Andromeda - the ship with weekly changing capabilities" syndrome of the later episodes.

Or it means "tubes" in the context individual missile launch tubes, not the collective 8-shot launchers. I believe it was once shown on the show that the missile launchers are rotary, and they spin around to reload or launch more missiles.
(40-60 8-shot tubes would be 300-500 tubes)

[Thanas]

Actually, upon finally managing to read through the glossary of the High Guard, I have to support some of the wiki figures after all.

AP GUN: A weapon that shoots a stream of anti-protons at near light speeds (99 PSL). Anti-protons that hit mass (the enemy ship) destroy it. An AP Gun is not effective beyond about 4 light seconds.


DEFENSIVE MISSILE: The main defensive weapon against incoming offensive missiles in ship to ship combat. Defensive missiles can also be used as enemy fighters, which are smaller missiles (about 1/3 of a kilogram). They move slower than offensive missiles (60 to 70 PSL), but with twice the acceleration. They have a range of only 5 to 10 light seconds.

OFFENSIVE MISSILE: The main offensive weapon in ship to ship combat. This device is about the size of an adult Human's fist and weighs about 1 kilogram. They move at 85 to 95 PSL and do atomic blast levels of damage when they hit, due to the kinetic energy of impact. Most have a range of 1 to 1.5 light minutes.


POINT DEFENSE LASER: A laser in the 30 to 50 megawatt range used to shoot down incoming missiles, fighters and drones. Also used by fighters who come in close contact with the enemy (1 to 3 light seconds) to cause damage to enemy ships.

SMART MISSILES: Extended-range, high-endurance missiles that rely on a combination of ship, drone and organic active/passive sensor systems to find targets and destroy them. At kill speed, smart missiles can achieve upwards of 90 PSL. Smart missiles are most effective at less than one AU, but special variants can extend that range to 3 AU when combat operations permit missile control "handoff" from platform to platform. Smart missiles can be called back or neutralized in flight.

*****************


Also regarding the MT figures of the offensive missiles: The contradict the 20MT stated in the prince. An offensive missile has 1 kg mass, moving at 254.823.589 m/s (85% of light speed, lower limit) to 284.802.835 (95% of light speed, upper limit).

Kinetic energy formula is: E(k) = 1/2*mv²

which gives us for the lower limit: 3,24675308*1016
and for the upper limit: 4,05563274*1016

Or, in other words, the offensive missiles of the Andromeda have a lower limit of 32 and an upper limit of 40 MT kinetic energy each.

Could the 20 MT statement of the Admiral therefore mean defensive missiles? Doubtful. They have a mass of 0,33 kg and travel at 60 (179875475 m/s) -75 (224844344 m/s) PSL.
Which gives them a lower limit of: 5,33860577*1015 = 5,3 MT
and an upper limit of: 8,34157154*1015 = 8,3 MT

Therefore, it is way more probable that the missiles the Admiral uses himself are 20 MT and that Dylan is merely charitable with him before dropping the hammer in the conversation.

As Allsystems is written information, it also overrides the dialogue.

[Thanas]

In terms of actual performance they're not really all that impressive. A few hundred megawatts is what I reember from their reactors. They have some sort of magical mass-effect like "mass lightening" technology that allows them to generate their multi-megaton kinetic missiles and generate particle beams that move at .99c (although the actual AP cannons only fire a few grams here, thank you waybackmachine which is kiloton range or thereabouts.

If it is only a couple of gram, than I wonder why the Andromeda carries them at all. I mean, for example, if they have a mass of ten gram, then you get:

0,5*0,01*(296794533*296794533)= 4,40434974*1014
Which, as I don't have to explain, is way beyond the power of a single defensive missile. So I believe the guy does not know what he is saying there. But then again, this is not written information, so non-canon and also not from the guys who wrote the tech parts of the show.

Found this also"

Alright, the Andromeda, like any other ship, runs on hydrogen and anti-protons, or AP. The hydrogen combines with the AP, in controlled reactors, to create anti-matter/matter reactions or matter/anti-matter reactions, either way it makes no matter, but what it does make is power, for the ship; a few hundred megawatts. Most of the power is used to power the GMG which reduces the effective mass to just under a kilogram-
Lipp-Sett: Stop!
Harper: A smaller chunk of the power is used to accelerate more hydrogen in a dozen magneto-plasma dynamic drives which creates the thrust - a thrust of of half a million Newtons or so. SO! when your pushing a kilogram with half a million Newtons of thrust, it's a good idea to keep one hand on your valuables 'cos you never know when you just might run straight into some two-faced lying jerk!

Kinda meshes with some episodes, like the one where they first run into either the Pyrians or the Knights of Genetic purity (they mention gigawatta range weapons blasitng a starship hull apart rather nicely) an the fact the megawatt range PDL can sometimes do damage to starships.

First, this is a season 4 episode, at which time the writers had all left and the people who were left behind had no idea of physics.

This particular gem was written by Bob Engels. Do I need to say more?

They do have light second/light minute engagement ranges, velocities in a fraction of c, and high accelerations, but alot of that is misleading in a vs context. They can throw out hundreds of MT range missiles for example, but typcially only a few of those are actually needed to destroy a XMC ("Mathematics of Tears")

No, that ship committed suicide.

A far better example is Andromeda itself, which in D-minus zero survived actual impacts of 40 missiles (counted them myself) which had plenty time to accelerate. She was still able to fight on etc. So that points to a damage resistance at least on the order of a few gigatons. Caveat: Of course it depends on where you hit them.

The ship has higher acceleration and is extremely manuverable (can make a 180 degree flip or nearly so in seconds) but again it needs that stuff for the way it fights (they need to be hard to hit) since they lack FTL comms or sensors (lightspeed lag) of any kind. Which means that anyone who does have FTL sensors and/or more precise FTL can just go around Andromedaverse ships and their attacks. (again much like fighting hte Honorverse)

Agreed.

And slipstream is.. interesting. The potential to be insanely fast, but utterly inconsistent when it comes to precision (What was the line? "Slipstream isnt the best way to travel, its the only way?") Slipstream is not what we can call reliable - duration can vary, emergence points,) unless one uses very common or frequently travelled paths. Similar ot, but alot worse in some ways than the Warp (but also safer). I'm also pretty sure slipstream shares some of the same "can't use it close to strong gravity" limitations some other universes have, although how "close" is close I don't exactly remember.

That limitation is more like a "don't use it close to strong gravity or that source will suffer". Witness Mobius, where even opening a single slipstream portal close to the planet was able to cause earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and tectonic shifts.

And a heavy limitation of slipstream is that it is pretty much dependent on how scouted a particular route is. If you got a well-scouted route, on average it is very fast and consistent. Of course, this also means if you got unknown enemy territory, you may or may not get there fast. Better like playing roulette in that situation.

The Andromeda received a refit in S2, after which it had 60 tubes. However, the 200 number, if it is accurate, is probably another instance of the "Andromeda - the ship with weekly changing capabilities" syndrome of the later episodes.

Or it means "tubes" in the context individual missile launch tubes, not the collective 8-shot launchers. I believe it was once shown on the show that the missile launchers are rotary,

That was a diagram of launch tubes in D-minus zero, but it showed exposed wreckage. And they were not rotary, unless my memory fails me again.

and they spin around to reload or launch more missiles.
(40-60 8-shot tubes would be 300-500 tubes)

I don't buy the spinning part, not with no justification for it in screenshots.

That said, the use of tubes in such a way is inconsistent with the earlier seasons and especially allsystems, where tubes clearly means total number of missile launchers. Witness the dialogue mentioned above and the articles at allsystems.

[Omeganian]

perhaps they upgraded from the decadent, pacifistic, Federation like Old Commonwealth's design./quote]

Decadent and pacifistic? The Commonwealth was anything but. Heck, these were people who regarded it perfectly appectable to detonate MT level warheads to assassinate foreign dignitaries.

Maybe they wanted fireworks (it is stated to be a surprise party, perhaps it actually was). In any case, once the Magog pressed upon them, they built an attack ship with three times the firepower of the older type of attack ship (4.5 the number of the tubes of Andromeda) with less crew and weight (Defiant, anyone?) Considering the amount of creature comforts in the Andromeda, and the fact that many people in the Commonwealth actually wanted to dissolve the High Guard, it's a product of a rather non militaristic society, and probably no more an actual warship than peacetime Starfleet vessels. You can certainly fit a lot more weapons on a ship this size (over a square km surface)

Kinda meshes with some episodes, like the one where they first run into either the Pyrians or the Knights of Genetic purity (they mention gigawatta range weapons blasitng a starship hull apart rather nicely) an the fact the megawatt range PDL can sometimes do damage to starships.

I think just the lights on a 1.3 km long ship will take more than that.

The systems Commonwealth was around 1 million or so planets, and the High Guard had something like 500,000 warships of all classes (largest being the Glorius Heritage cruisers).

At present, there are just over 360,000 ships in the High Guard, of which nearly 150,000 are dedicated combat/exploration platforms. The remaining 210,000 assets form the backbone of High Guard long-range logistics support operations.

I'm also pretty sure slipstream shares some of the same "can't use it close to strong gravity" limitations some other universes have, although how "close" is close I don't exactly remember.

Depends on the planet, since the problems seem to be there (tidal forces in big masses or something like that). If it's uninhabitable...

Also regarding the MT figures of the offensive missiles: The contradict the 20MT stated in the prince. An offensive missile has 1 kg mass, moving at 254.823.589 m/s (85% of light speed, lower limit) to 284.802.835 (95% of light speed, upper limit).

Kinetic energy formula is: E(k) = 1/2*mv²

which gives us for the lower limit: 3,24675308*1016
and for the upper limit: 4,05563274*1016

Perhaps the mass lightening induced speed doesn't contribute to the explosive power (like Mr. Wong suggests is the case for photorps). But that would require 100% efficiency (1/2 kg matter and 1/2 kg matter). Perhaps there is some mistranslation from Vedran. Or the missile detonates after impacting, and, possibly, penetrating the hull (almost entirely antimatter, surrounded by a solid enemy ship hull).

Oh, and at these speeds, you cannot ignore the relativistic increase in mass and kinetic energy.

They do have light second/light minute engagement ranges, velocities in a fraction of c, and high accelerations, but alot of that is misleading in a vs context. They can throw out hundreds of MT range missiles for example, but typcially only a few of those are actually needed to destroy a XMC ("Mathematics of Tears")

No, that ship committed suicide.

The firepower fired at Pax would have been sufficient to overcome her defensive missiles. There is the case when the Balance of Judgement was hit with a few very heavy (a few meters long, a size suggesting gigaton range) missiles head on, and still had enough time to send a last transmission.

[Thanas]

I have just checked D-minus zero, and the missiles are definitely not rotary there. The screenshot (which for some reason my PC refuses to save right now) shows the missiles not arrayed in a rotary fashion, but merely two launch tubes arrayed above each other.

It happens in D-minus zero, around the 2:40 mark.

[Thanas]

Maybe they wanted fireworks (it is stated to be a surprise party, perhaps it actually was). In any case, once the Magog pressed upon them, they built an attack ship with three times the firepower of the older type of attack ship (4.5 the number of the tubes of Andromeda) with less crew and weight (Defiant, anyone?) Considering the amount of creature comforts in the Andromeda, and the fact that many people in the Commonwealth actually wanted to dissolve the High Guard, it's a product of a rather non militaristic society, and probably no more an actual warship than peacetime Starfleet vessels. You can certainly fit a lot more weapons on a ship this size (over a square km surface)

But very few internal space actually, given that the real area of the Andromeda is much smaller. That said, I fail to see how you get pacifistic society from the Vedrans. This directly contradicts what we see in the episodes about the Commonwealth (again, Mobius). And your simplistic example ignores that the DSX actually has none of the fighters, troop complement of the XMC etc. You are taking different mission profiles (command ship, carrier vs Attack ship) and comparing them in the case of the Andromeda and the XMC.

So we do not know why the DSAI has so little missile tubes compared to the DSAII. However, that does not mean the Commonwealth is pacifist. This was a nation that considered nuking an acceptable form of assassination, regularly assassinated foreign leaders etc. Heck, the Andromeda in her short career before the Fall lead many fleet actions - and she was the flagship.

Also regarding the MT figures of the offensive missiles: The contradict the 20MT stated in the prince. An offensive missile has 1 kg mass, moving at 254.823.589 m/s (85% of light speed, lower limit) to 284.802.835 (95% of light speed, upper limit).

Kinetic energy formula is: E(k) = 1/2*mv²

which gives us for the lower limit: 3,24675308*1016
and for the upper limit: 4,05563274*1016

Perhaps the mass lightening induced speed doesn't contribute to the explosive power (like Mr. Wong suggests is the case for photorps).

The andromedaverse explicitly fights with kinetic energy weapons, not with explosives on the missiles. Hence why they are listed as:

OM-5 standard offensive kinetic kill missiles
DM-5 standard defensive kinetic kill missiles

Perhaps there is some mistranslation from Vedran.

No, that does not cut it as allsystems is canon. All of it.

Or the missile detonates after impacting, and, possibly, penetrating the hull (almost entirely antimatter, surrounded by a solid enemy ship hull).

What?

Oh, and at these speeds, you cannot ignore the relativistic increase in mass and kinetic energy.

....and you will present your calculations as to the impact of these?

The firepower fired at Pax would have been sufficient to overcome her defensive missiles.

The andromeda only fired to disable, not to kill, as stated by Dylan when he orders Tyr not to shoot to kill.

There is the case when the Balance of Judgement was hit with a few very heavy (a few meters long, a size suggesting gigaton range) missiles head on, and still had enough time to send a last transmission.

I am not sure one can call those missiles and their size does not prove anything as we do not know how they were intended to be used iirc. The damage might very well only have been done by the Balance running into it. I do not think that proves anything, sadly.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Kinetic energy formula is: E(k) = 1/2*mv²

which gives us for the lower limit: 3,24675308*1016
and for the upper limit: 4,05563274*1016

Or, in other words, the offensive missiles of the Andromeda have a lower limit of 32 and an upper limit of 40 MT kinetic energy each.

I think you messed up your conversion from joules to megatons there, because 40 MT is four times more than you should have gotten. 1 megaton = 4.184x1015 joules.

4.184x1015 goes into 4.056x1016 roughly 9.7 times. Not 40. Which surprised me, actually.

[Thanas]

I think you messed up your conversion from joules to megatons there, because 40 MT is four times more than you should have gotten. 1 megaton = 4.184x1015 joules.

4.184x1015 goes into 4.056x1016 roughly 9.7 times. Not 40. Which surprised me, actually.

Yeah, you are right. Mea culpa. Forgot to convert from joules into MT at the end there. (How stupid is that?).

So lower limit: 7.8 MT
upper limit: 9.7 MT
for offensive missiles

and
lower limit: 1.28 MT
upper limit: 2 MT
for defensive missiles.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Ah-ha. But it turns out your mistake wasn't too far off anyway. If you take relativistic effects into account, (then assuming Mike Wong's Relativity Calculator is reliable) you get a relativistic kinetic energy of 1.964x1017 joules, which is a delightful 46.9 megatons. That said, I don't know the math for determining relativistic kinetic energy myself, so I can't double-check that particular number personally.

I find this entire thread quite interesting. I loved the first 1.5 seasons of Andromeda, but never really bothered looking up the capabilities of High Guard ships, so I'll just go back to reading now, since I doubt I'll have anything else constructive to contribute.

[Thanas]

Ah-ha. But it turns out your mistake wasn't too far off anyway. If you take relativistic effects into account, (then assuming Mike Wong's Relativity Calculator is reliable) you get a relativistic kinetic energy of 1.964x1017 joules, which is a delightful 46.9 megatons. That said, I don't know the math for determining relativistic kinetic energy myself, so I can't double-check that particular number personally.

Oh FFS

I really should stop calculating this on three hours of sleep, but here goes nothing:

Using the calculator, relativistic kinetig energy:

Offensive Missiles:
Lower limit: 8.054*1016J=19.24 MT
Upper limit: 1.964*1017J=46,94 MT


Defensive missiles:
Lower limit: 7.411*1015J=1.77 MT
Upper limit: 1.516*1016J= 3.62 MT


In that context, the statement requires no modification at all, seeing as how 20 MT is very close to the lower limit for offensive missiles.

[Omeganian]

But very few internal space actually, given that the real area of the Andromeda is much smaller.

The main body is a rather compact volume about one km long and hundreds of meters across. A volume of tens of millions of cubic meters can fit a lot.

That said, I fail to see how you get pacifistic society from the Vedrans.

8503 CY: The "Twelve Centuries of Peace" era begins

9688 CY: At peace and with no conceivable threats on the horizon, popular sentiment to disband the High Guard grows and coalesces into an organized political movement.

9760 CY: Disbandment advocates hold a Commonwealth-wide referendum on the High Guard's future. Disbandment is rejected, 48 percent to 52 percent, but supporters vow to revisit the issue to vote again after the minimum 10 year waiting period.

This directly contradicts what we see in the episodes about the Commonwealth (again, Mobius).

A single covert op with no casualties expected.

And your simplistic example ignores that the DSX actually has none of the fighters, troop complement of the XMC etc. You are taking different mission profiles (command ship, carrier vs Attack ship) and comparing them in the case of the Andromeda and the XMC.

I am comparing it to the DSA, which was short on that account as well.

Heck, the Andromeda in her short career before the Fall lead many fleet actions - and she was the flagship.

I remember a recon mission against the Magog, mention of some evacuation... Mind reminding what else?

The andromedaverse explicitly fights with kinetic energy weapons, not with explosives on the missiles. Hence why they are listed as:

OM-5 standard offensive kinetic kill missiles
DM-5 standard defensive kinetic kill missiles

And the kill vehicle is stated to be the part that contains the explosive - same page as the statement that the missiles damage through kinetic energy. Looks like a bit of contradiction.

Or the missile detonates after impacting, and, possibly, penetrating the hull (almost entirely antimatter, surrounded by a solid enemy ship hull).

What?

about one kg of antimatter, reacting with one kg of enemy ship hull.

Oh, and at these speeds, you cannot ignore the relativistic increase in mass and kinetic energy.

....and you will present your calculations as to the impact of these?

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Sci ... ivity.html

around 20-50 MT.

The firepower fired at Pax would have been sufficient to overcome her defensive missiles.

The andromeda only fired to disable, not to kill, as stated by Dylan when he orders Tyr not to shoot to kill.

Exactly, meaning the missiles had to hit despite the defenses.

The damage might very well only have been done by the Balance running into it. I do not think that proves anything, sadly.

[/quote]

Then why did they drop warheads instead of rocks? Beside, Dylan said to get within two km of the ship, drop the warheads, and run away - that suggests a rather low relative speed.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Slipstream has a few other interesting limitations. As I recall, most organics can INUITIVELY navigate the slip to a near-99% accuracy, whereas an AI can only do it at 50%.

Also, I think the episode where they found the Bellerophon said that you can't open slip-points BETWEEN galaxies or in very empty regions of space, though I don't think they said why.

[Bedlam]

I might be mis remembering but isn't it mentioned that you need some strong source of gravity like a star to generate a slip stream portal (or allow one to be opened) hense not being able to open then in open space or between galaxies.